Episode 217 - So How Do You Feel About Trains?

Most podcasts tell you what happened; this week, we’re looking at why the wires got crossed in the first place. We’re dissecting the intersection of mental illness and the legal system, from the psychology of "diminished capacity" to the societal failures that turn patients into perpetrators. It’s not an excuse—it’s an explanation. Grab your coffee and your DSM-5; we're going deep into the headspace of the headlines.

Research links below!

Star Tribune - "Alvin Taylor"
Deluth News Tribune - "Man who killed Esko native in Wisonsin in 1986 again denied release"
The Dunn County News - "Taylor: placed in Mendota"
The Sheboygan Press - "Suspect A 'Soldier Of God'"
Leader-Telegram - "Alvin Taylor faces third murder charge"
Leader-Telegram - "Portage man charged with two murders"
ICJIA - "Mental Illness and Violence: Is there a Link?"
Wisconsin Radio Network - "Serial killer Alvin Taylor again seeking release"

National Library of Medicine - "Health care serial murder"
BBC News - "Canadian nurse charged with eight murders"
Getty Images - "Elizabeth Wettlaufer"
The Washington Post - "Canadian public inquiry: If serial killer nurse hadn't confessed, she wouldn't have been caught"
dreading (crime and psychology) - "The Red Surge: The Case of Elizabeth Wettlaufer" (YouTube)

Speaker 1: Why they discovered upon their arrivals unspeakable. I'm not they

did want bother. It's the living.

Speaker 2: You gotta worry about.

Speaker 1: Something. If I couldn't keep them there with me whole,

at least I felt that I could keep their skeletons. Hello,

and welcome to the Bad Taste Crime Podcast. I'm Vicky.

I'm Rachel Beck again. What is going on? Never thought

we'd made Oh my god, what a boy are you hired?

Clinging on by the skin of our Yeah, I know

by the time you hear this, it will probably be February.

But it's just been the longest year all.

Speaker 3: I feel like we're twenty months into twenty.

Speaker 1: I've been seeing all those memes. Is like, God, it's

been the longest year ever and ever, like it's been

a week.

Speaker 3: It's so real, it feels like it the.

Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm tired too. How was your holidays? All Christmas

and the New Years of it? All gotic? It was nuts?

Speaker 3: You know, little kids tend to no, I don't, Well,

I know you don't. You're like the rich auntie.

Speaker 1: I'm not rich. God, I don't. Bags day we were like, no,

which I got is a gift I didn't even purchase

for myself because I'm doing you're wealthy like guys. I

just went to a cotillion. They were getting these out

as part of the gift bag. These were the gift bags.

Speaker 3: You know how I know that I'm materialistic every time

I hear about like the Oscars and stuff, and they're

like all of the participants. Even if you don't win,

you get like a gift back. Yeah, like thirty thousand

dollars worth of shit. I dream about that gift back.

I want to see what's in.

Speaker 1: It when we tip. And I long ago worked for

the same company who's in the market of making bags,

and they would get contacted for shit like to make

those bags. Wow, that's the type of ship that they

were doing. I mean they're just like fancy, glossy right not.

I mean sometimes tots sometimes just like gift bag like

Pepper gift bags with like you know, Oscars logos on.

That's basically all it is. And the stuff they put

in it is the expensive ship. But like the idea

of like free, like a free bag free. You just

love a free free ship. I do, which I also do.

Speaker 3: That's why I dig through my neighbor's garbage.

Speaker 1: I don't. I don't dig. Okay, looket stances. Why she's

out there every Friday like a gremlin digging through the trap. Sorry,

I haven't had to worry about a garbage day in

like four years. I've gotten so many cool things. We

have a dumpster, you love it. Actually, they're going to

get all up in there. There is so where I live,

there's a bunch of businesses. I live on top of

some businesses, and there's a bunch of businesses around me.

There's like a gym and all this other shit. There

is like regulars who come by and hit because there's

like four or five dumpsters just within like the parking lot,

the front parking lot, the back parking lot, this parking lot,

all that's around me that I will see because I'm

on the corner of the building. Yeah, so I'll see

them drive over here and kind of dig through this garbage.

And then they drive over to this one and dig

through this one, which is really lucrative because it's behind

a carpet place. So sometimes they have palettes, sometimes they

have carpet. Sometimes people just dump their shit and you're

gonna wake.

Speaker 3: Up and be having your like coffee and you're just

gonna see me.

Speaker 1: I'll be like, when's is Rachel doing? Oh go like

a raccoon. I'll be like, hey, yeah, there's one like

further down in the park. So I have regularly see

people like let's go. It's obviously not right now because

it's too cold. It's the thing a lot more in

the summer, which I find wold because I feel like

that would be way stinkier, super stinky.

Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm not into like I don't let's be clear,

I don't dig through the garbage. If you too, that's okay,

I love you. But like I just like when you

drive around, people are like, I don't need this beautiful chair.

I'm gonna put it out for the garbage, and the

garbage is me three ninety nine free chair.

Speaker 1: Yeah, But with furniture, I feel like people know that's

gonna like they out knowing like either someone's gonna take

it or the garbage man is going to sae of.

Speaker 3: The so many times where I'm like this looks so

nice and I'm like, oh, your cat definitely pete on this, yeah,

or like this is definitely broken.

Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, I was.

Speaker 3: Actually pissed right up the street from here. I almost

got a really cool antique dresser. I circled back around

after I dropped off my kid and some asshole had

taken all the drawers out of it, just the drawers,

and my mom was like, they use it for planters.

I was like, whoa, I could, it's stupid. I maybe

it would be cute though, if you did them, like

various sizes out of your wall, if they did it

like it like with something that I didn't want it.

Oh yeah no, but I still dream about that nineteen

sixties mint dresser. I do think that it would be

more lucrative to go dumbstter driving right now though, because

everybody's gotten new stuff for Christmas and they're like getting

rid of the old stuff.

Speaker 1: Yes.

Speaker 3: Absolutely, this is the dumpster Diving Podcast.

Speaker 1: Jump on in. Yeah, we'll get into why you're really here.

If this is your first time listening, a special hello

to you. Welcome. We are gonna head over to the newsroom.

Let's go.

Speaker 4: We didn't watching locals today, we had fifty.

Speaker 1: So our news this week was u suggested by our

lovely sound editor Tiff Oh. I love it already, and

it is a return to the meat crimes. What the

meat No way, which are on the ground. Reporter is

on the ground, not in Philly anymore, so we haven't

been getting as much. I still have a contact out there.

Let's start to connect, which I do. Still get some

meat crimes. He's he's much more about the pooper thing,

this pooper story, the woman who took a shit on

at guideshood of his car. I support women's frong. Yes, anyway,

it was like it was like a road rage incident.

She got and took a shit on his car. That's amazing.

She just got sentence. Also, we might talk about that

in the next episode. But no meat crimes. We've been

following them, I think for like a year.

Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, if you've been listening for a while, we

have this special connection to these meat marauders. Yeah, doing

meat related crimes on the East Coast. No, yeah, East

Coast and more specifically in Philly see to be the

central central location. So this time, this was from November

twenty fourth, oh ABC six. This time police were looking

for ten to twelve masked men in four separate vehicles

who made off with a large amount of frozen meat

early in the morning. Happened around two ten am.

Speaker 1: The driver of the truck said he was asleep when

the thieves broke into his trailer and he woke up

because of the noise of them right breaking in, and

he got hit a baseball bat and I chased them,

chased them out of the trailer, says, with the suspects

leaving pieces of meat and boxes scattered across the parking lot.

The driver said they took off like cockroaches. Oh my, scattered,

you know, scatter scatter. So anyway, they have been looking

for these ten to twelve people. Obviously, they say cargo

thefts have more than doubled from twenty twenty one to

twenty twenty two. Wow, they had a lot of trailer

thiefs last year. But also like the meat crime, it

seems like there's a meat crime circle, like.

Speaker 3: A it has to be like something with restaurants or

like shipping company.

Speaker 1: Yeah, and meat is one of the more like sought

after things. And I wonder if it's just because it's

easier to like re sell it or I'm not honestly,

I'm not even sure. They're saying the total value of

what was stolen was the total I'm sorry, the total

truckload was worth seventy thousand. At the time of this article,

they hadn't figured out how much they had taken. But

the week prior there was another theft where thieves got

awigh with six hundred pounds of pork worth an estimated

thirty five hundred dollars. They weren't sure if they were related.

But again, I'm like, seems like this has meat circle.

That meat is happening. I'm not even sure it's a

lot of meat theft. But that's the update on the

meat crimes.

Speaker 3: Oh my god, we have to unmask Philadelphia hamburglers.

Speaker 1: I know, all right, we'll not stand. We're gonna move

on to Netflix and kill this week. We are talking

and I realize we're a little behind the curve. That's

because there's a lot of content to watch and I

only got so much time in today. Be patient with us.

So we are talking about unknown number the high school catfish. Oh,

I'm pretty sure we have not talked about on here yet.

I think we might have talked about outside of here. Yeah,

but boy, oh boy, is that the one with the mom? Yeah,

the mom did it? Yeah, I mean, way to spoil

it off, this way to spoil it off the time.

But that's I saw that one. We are professionally okay, Rachel,

come on, don't do that to your daughter.

Speaker 3: I has literally nothing to do with what it's funny

to say, because she's horrible to her daughter.

Speaker 1: So essentially what happened is there were two American teenagers,

Lauren McCarry and her boyfriend at the time, Owen McKenny.

They started getting text messages from this unknown number that

we're harassing, and it's just really fuck it terrible. Some

of them are crazy, some of them were threatening, insulting,

all of it I would consider bullying. Yeah, there was

a poor girl particular aim at Lauren's appearance, and this

sort of taunting happening regarding her boyfriend at the time,

and this sexual interest in her boyfriend. These are queen agers,

by the way, like high schoolers. So it goes over

the incident and they reported it to the high school,

and the high school started working with police and they

still can't figure out where these numbers are coming from

and all of this, and essentially what happens is after

the county sheriff police officers all of them, finally the

FBI gets involved. Yeah, big cheese. And because this is

ongoing for like a year more. I mean it was

a while and I'm sorry, it was fifteen months. This happened, Wow,

over a time period, fifteen months, they finally figure out

the IP address done dun dum. Turns out, as Rachel said,

in the very beginning, it was no, we won't never

it was Lauren's mo.

Speaker 3: Like who could tender disgusting?

Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, uh she is. It's kind of wild because

she's involved in the documentary, like she's on camera talking

about like my poor kids, interviewing her in the very beginning.

It was a super well made, very documentary and how

they had it set up, and the fact that there

is like this reveal three quarters of the way through

that's like, oh, you know this woman we've been talking

to an interviewing the whole time. Actually she's the one

who did it. Was yeah, perfect chef's kiss. Yeah, it

was just like it was good.

Speaker 3: It was It was kind of and it was short,

like if you haven't seen it, it's super worth it.

Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think it's a let's see, it's a documentary,

it's not a series. It's ninety four minutes. Yeah, and

she did. I wanted to see because the mom whatever

her name was Carla Carrie something got arrested. Yeah, which

there's a whole They have the body cam frootage of

her getting arrested. There's also this discovery that this job

that she told her husband and she had, she actually

hadn't had and hadn't been working for like a year

or something.

Speaker 3: Yep, too busy texting.

Speaker 1: Yeah, she all of a sudden, he was like, what

do you mean, she's not Like he finds out from

police that she's been lying about the job that she has.

So crazy. Yeah, it's a very what a bitch interesting story.

It definitely highlights the big issues with technology and the

nature of that how easily this can happen. Kendra was

her name, and was charged with two counts of stocking

a minor, two counts of communicating with another to commit

a crime. So sorry, they popped up a thing that

was like disable your ad blocker. They don't know.

Speaker 3: That's my first personal front.

Speaker 1: Two kunds of stacking a miner, two kinds of communicating

with another to commit a crime, in one count of

obstruction of justice. She in twenty twenty three, she pleaded

guilty to two counts of stocking a minor and apologize

to Owen and his family. She spent nineteen months in prison,

was released on August eight, twenty twenty four. There is

still an order, I believe, in an injunction regarding Lauren

seeing her mom. She's not allowed to see her mom still,

even though now she's eighteen. I'm pretty sure she's still

not allowed to see her. But she even in the

film is like, yeah, I don't know like where I

stand on it, Like I don't poor child want to

think that it was out of malice, but like she

still did these things, but like she's still my mom

and I still love her. And yeah, it's very complicated.

Speaker 3: That was this She's so young and like sweet.

Speaker 1: And it's this small town so it was talking to

you know, a very tight knit community. Lauren played sports,

she was a basketball player, I think, so like all

these parents knew each other, they were all involved. It's

very small township.

Speaker 3: They should have put her in witness protection.

Speaker 1: I mean, who wouldn't go that far. That's so embarrassing.

I mean it's crazy.

Speaker 3: She shouldn't be embarrassed. But like, you know, like that's

crazy that it's like everyone you know, right, and it's

on Netflix, right, right, so yeah.

Speaker 1: I would. Honestly, I would highly recommend it. It was recommend

really really good. Loved it, crazy story, it will make

you so mad. Yeah, will be really watching it. This

is that part of the show where you say content

may happy appropriate for all listeners. This week we will

definitely be talking about murderer, and we're actually going to

be talking largely about mental health. Yes. So the story

that I decided to pick, and part of the reason

why I picked this topic was I had a story

sent to us courtesy of friend of the show and

former guest Kaitlin Esbido, my college roommate girl. But a

couple of weeks ago, she well, like a month ago,

she reached out to me, was like, hey, have you

heard about this? She was on the show the last

time we talked about Ohio. Yes, I'm pretty sure. Yeah,

we did great episode. I loved. I would love to

have her back on This is so fun. So anyway,

so Caitlyn sent this to me. She reached out to

me about this story specifically because of the mental health

aspects of this case, sort of where the system failed

the person that I am going to talk about today.

But before that, I wanted to start out with some

crime and mental health statistics courtesy of the Illinois Criminal

Justice Information Authority OOH local SO. The National Institute of

Mental Health estimates one in five people in the US

live with mental illness, which means approximately forty six point

six million people. Just put it in perspective, I think

that's a low ball, to be honest with you. One

fifth of those have a serious mental illness and those

are things serious mental illness SMI. They're considered things that

have like psychosis involved, you know, large mood fluctuations, like

things like like the very extreme. Yeah, things that would

affect your ability to have a normal life. Correct, YEA correct,

totally makes sense. The majority of individuals with mental illness

are not violent. I am the only three to five

percent of violent acts can be contributed to persons with SMI. Further,

it is estimated that persons with mental illness are responsible

for fewer than one percent of all gun related homicides.

Speaker 3: Very important to consider, yes, at this time in our history.

Speaker 1: Definitely. From a twenty seventeen US Bureau of Justice Statistics report,

incarcerated people with mental illness or SMI are more likely

to engage in violence once they're incarcerated right, Yeah, I'm

trying this is just incarcerated people. Quote. Research researchers suggested

these findings were not because violence is inherent to mental illness,

but the result of a lack of adequate treatment both

before and during incarceration, coupled with the stressors of a

prison or jill environment. Quote makes sense to me, definitely

tracks yep, because that is a stressful as fuck environment.

Speaker 3: Yep, seems purposeful. Right, this is a political podcast.

Speaker 1: Yeah. Research has also shown that persons with mental illness

are more likely to be victims of violent acts than perpetrators, absolutely,

with one study showing adults with SMI were over ten

times more likely to be victims of violent crime than

the general population.

Speaker 3: Everybody write that down.

Speaker 1: Ten that's crazy, super crazy. Hu, that's a huge amount. Yep.

Speaker 3: That's something that I don't think is considered enough by people.

Speaker 1: No. This also carries over into incarceration as well, with

men with mental illness being one point six times more

likely and women one point seven times more likely to

be physically victimized by other incarcerated persons yep on the week. Yeah.

Researchers note that both substance use disorders and untreated psychosis

increase risk factors for violent behavior by leaps and bounds. Obviously,

many of these factors can be mitigated by addressing the

barriers to receiving mental health and treatment. Something I'm sure

we're going to be talking about exactly today, But I

don't think any of that is a surprise. Do you

have any any thoughts on just like the statistical part

of this.

Speaker 3: I think that, like, the numbers are crazy, but I

think that what's even crazier is how much that this

is unreported.

Speaker 1: How many people.

Speaker 3: You know, in our daily lives, we meet lots of

people who are like, boy, you need therapy and you

have not had it. Yeah, Like, boy, you definitely have

some things you need to address, but because of society,

people don't because there's such a significant amount of shame.

Speaker 1: So it's like, take those numbers, boost them on up. Yeah,

you know, I think that's crazy, and I think, honestly,

I do think this is a lot closer, absolutely, just

because the conversations around mental health and how to handle

that and specifically mental illness. Right, Like, I am not talking.

I go to therapy because I have generallyings and need

some fucking help, right, like that is not to me,

not mental illness. I am like, I just need some help, right,

we're talking like diag This is the other thing is

like getting a diagnosis very tricky.

Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a tricky process right right, right?

Speaker 1: And expensive, yes, which is partially because having mental health

services available to underprivileged or underserved communities or you know too.

It's also set lower income, right, Like I think if

that were available, you have a lot more people getting

a diagnosis.

Speaker 3: Absolutely, but there's all of these sort of like roadblocks,

both mental and financial and societal.

Speaker 1: Yes.

Speaker 3: And plus if you have mental illness, it's harder, it

can be harder to do these things for yourself.

Speaker 1: Right, yeah, I agree, I agree. So with all that

being said, let's talk about Alvin Taylor. Okay, there isn't

a ton known about Taylor's early life, and a lot

of what is known comes directly from him. Okay, so

grain of salt, right, so he is born No, no, no,

But it's fair. I mean I would say that about anybody,

because everybody colors their own human.

Speaker 3: Experience, a sprinkle salt on everything.

Speaker 1: Yes, I lie constantly. So your name is not even Vicky,

no Barbara? Oh fuck that was my witness protection names

you idiot? Oh God, time to go bye, guys. Hey.

So Taylor was born in Milwaukee, Wisconsin in the fifties.

He has said that he suffered abuse from his parents,

who claimed that he claimed they were indifferent about raising him,

mostly allowing him to wander the streets. Like I said,

this was the fifties. Yeah. Despite this, Taylor seemed to

find his own own way to cope by developing an

interest in music and songwriting. Okay, meditation and psychotherapy. Nice. Yeah,

his interest in music is something he would develop into

a career of sorts. He began touring the Northeastern US

as a soloist for smaller bands. So this, I think

is still something that they do where they can just

call it where they're like, hey, we need somebody to

play in this band, just calling like a one time

going on the road. Yeah, like a tour, like like

a touring artist. Yeah for sure, good.

Speaker 3: For you, Alvin. That sounds fun and lucrative. Well maybe

not lucrative but fun.

Speaker 1: Well, and this again, I mean it would have been

in the like sixties, Yeah, so definitely a time I

think when music popularity and that kind of you know,

playing clubs and stuff was like more lucrative. Yeah, you're

going to be wealthy, but like right, better than something. Yeah,

and if it's what you have fun, Yeah, many times

I saw Taylor being described as this, Like I said,

like a traveling club performer.

Speaker 2: Huh.

Speaker 1: According to the dun County News, it is believed Taylor

experienced his first psychotic break in nineteen sixty nine. Quote

Taylor was in a bar and thought some men were

going to kill him. Leaving by bus. He thought the

people on the bus were going to kill him. At

his hotel, he thought the maid there was going to

kill him. Oh, poor guy. Yeah. He was hospitalized for

a week after this, and then he got back on

the road again. It wasn't too much later, about like

mid seventies when Taylor was hospitalized again, and this time

he actually was diagnosed with schizophrenia. Okay. After receiving a diagnosis,

finally knowing what's going on, he would spend time in

and out of different psychiatric hospitals and he saw various

psychiatrists ecologists throughout basically between the late nineteen seventies and

early nineteen eighties towards nineteen eighty seven ish, So during

this time, Taylor was arrested and convicted of delivering crack

cocaine and given a four year prison sentence. Alvin don't

do that. So he's leading up to this, right, He's

like spending this time in mental health facilities. He has

this diagnosis. You can tell he's like kind of actively

working on this problem, makes this choice to get into

drug trade and goes to jail. And I feel like,

especially during that time, not saying it's gotten much better now,

but like during that time, you are not going to

get the aid in prison. No no, no, no, no no, right,

there's no way, and especially if you are in the

middle of trying to deal with the problem. Yeah, they

send you away for four years into the scariest environment imaginable. Right,

that's really gonna fuck up your trajectory. That is.

Speaker 3: The thing is with a lot of these mental health conditions,

you can kind of like when you're looking at somebody's

life like this and the history you can see like

they call it a destabilizing event and for these happened

in everybody's lives, But when you have mental health issues,

it helps to know where you stand. So it's kind

of like you can track back like, oh, his parents

were neglectful. That's destabilizing as a child. You're going on tour,

which is great, but it's like the idea of not

knowing where you're gonna be the next day might not

have been the most supportive thing for his mental health.

Not that he knew that, right, And you're at the club,

you're drinking, maybe somebody hands you a funny cigarette.

Speaker 1: You know.

Speaker 3: It just was like the perfect storm to make everything worse.

And now he's in jail, not getting therapy, and probably

getting kicked in his head a lot, right, God damn it,

poor Alvin.

Speaker 1: So by the nineteen eighties, Taylor had somewhat cemented his

career playing in nightclubs. I'm merely sticking to the clubs

in Wisconsin and Minnesota, Okay. In contrast, however, Taylor's mental

health really started a steep decline, Oh dear around this time.

Friends and acquaintances would later describe Taylor as a religious

fanatic and pacifist, with Taylor himself saying quote, he was

a dreamer and at time at times had been told

by his friends to stop dreaming and come back to reality. Yeah,

your friends care about you, Alvin. Yeah, And this is it,

And I think I do think that's that being nice, right, yea,

being like you're such a dreamer like maybe you know

versus like yo, like you're talking some crazy shit like yeah,

you know what I mean, like something and.

Speaker 3: You need that friend though, You need that friend to

be like, hey, take a shower.

Speaker 1: Right right. So this is from the Sheboygan press quote

in Portage. Restaurant owner Janet Aaron Aaron Say said she

chatted occasionally with Taylor, and you kind of felt sorry

for him. He was the kind of person who really

got to your feelings. Miss aaron Say said he would

get talking about religion and how everybody in the world

should love one another. There isn't enough love in this world,

he would say, unquote Alvin. Yeah, So this is where

I really struggle because I do think generally his intentions

generally work good, like I don't.

Speaker 3: And that's what I feel so far, like based on

what you've told me, like, hey, don't deal drugs, bad

bad thing, you know, right, everybody makes mistakes.

Speaker 1: These thoughts didn't really turn to violence until nineteen eighty four,

when Taylor befriended thirty eight year old Robert L. Williams.

Taylor has said that he liked the man, but expressed

having the delusion that Williams had killed someone. Okay, so

something in his brain was like.

Speaker 3: And that's schizophrenia. He would just be like, hey, were

you aware, and you're like I wasn't. Let me jot

that down, but it's very hard to tell that from reality.

Speaker 1: Oh yeo guy again from the dun County News quote.

At one point he overheard a kid say, yeah, get

rid of him. And that was just one sign which

Taylor took to me, and he was supposed to kill Williams.

Oh doctor said that before killing, Taylor would wrestle with

what has been described as the force. Not responding to

the messages caused pressure to build inside of Taylor. So

it wasn't even like a comment directed at him, right,

But he interpreted this as a big sign that like, oh,

the universe is telling me, like, yeah, you know what,

people around me know that he's a murderer. So this

is something that I.

Speaker 3: Need to be very like conspiratorial. At a lot of

schizophrenia seems to be like that, like there's this whole

thing that like people are trying to get you, or

people know something you don't, it must be a really

scary feeling.

Speaker 1: Yeah, I can't even imagine. You're right, I think that is.

I mean, let me just say we are not experts,

like that does seem to be a very common thing,

and I'm sure that's just due to the way the

brain is like interpreting like that.

Speaker 3: Paranoia, Yeah, definitely. I remember reading a book when I

was a kid. I'm not sure what book, but it

was some like autobiographical thing about a sister talking about

her sister who would eventually be diagnosed with schizophrenia. And

I remember she was like, I think the first warning

sign before we knew what was going on. She's like,

when we were in the house and she would we

would have to go to the bathroom, even just to

wash our hands, she would turn on like the fan

and she'd be like, why are you doing that, Like

she'd turned on the fan, and she turned on the lights,

and she turned on the shower, and she's like, all

of these people are trying to listen to us going

to the bathroom. We have to make sure that they

can't hear. And so she thought that she was just

like shy, which right, I'm sure we've all been to

places where it's like, I gotta drown this out. They

do not need to know this about me, right, But

like it would upset her so much she would be

like hyperventilating in the bathroom, like, oh my god, they're

listening to us. They're out to get us. You know,

everyone in this house is like perverted. And and that

wasn't the case, and she was like where are you

getting this from? And it was like such an innocuous thing.

But when interpreted now, knowing like what happened, it's like,

oh so it does seem to be like kind of

a paranoia.

Speaker 1: Yeah, And I mean this is definitely like when you

add substance abuse to this in any case, it alters

your your brain chemistry even more. Yes, and not always

in a positive way. I think most of the time,

not in the positive. And I'm sorry he's in nightclubs

in the eighties, not saying that he was a substance abuser,

but just but I am also kind of saying that, Yeah,

I mean, other than him delivering crack ocaine, it didn't

really talk about him like being a big drug user,

and he maybe he wasn't.

Speaker 3: I just I feel like that scene she was very

much like invite the j So it's like, I'm not

ruling it out, sure, I mean for sure, for sure.

Speaker 1: So things come to a head on July fifteenth, nineteen

eighty five, when Taylor shot and killed Williams with a

three fifty seven magnum. Taylor then buried Williams in the

backyard of the home he was renting in Springbrook, Wisconsin,

covering his body with quicklime. William's body was not discovered

until two years later, when a new tenant accidentally discovered

the remains and then reported it to police. So that's

like two years in the future, but we're still in

Okay nineteen eighty five, Taylor, seemingly not being caught at

the time, started giving him delusions that he was actually

working for police. Yes, so he's like, oh, they haven't

come after me. They must know what I've done and

it's this good thing and they're like on my side.

Yeah type of thing. Yeah. So two years later, on

May twenty first, nineteen eighty six, Taylor once again a

hacked someone, forty two year old James A. Severson, who

was Taylor's neighbor in oh Claire, Wisconsin. Oh excuse me, police, said,

Taylor had stabbed Severson in the neck, but the blade

broke and the two began wrestling on the ground. Taylor

then choked Severson, and while he was unconscious, retrieved a

butcher knife and repeatedly stabbed him until he died. Oh

my god. It doesn't appear that there was any specific

motivation for the attack, but honestly, I think it would

be safe to assume that there was some sort of

mental health yeah, something happening that played a small role

in this attack, because again, like up to this point,

I mean, minus the murder two years prior, right, But like,

up to that point, it wasn't he wasn't like a

yel or anything.

Speaker 3: Right, guy, Right, So it just came kind of came

out of nowhere.

Speaker 1: Yeah, once the delusions really started in earnest is kind

of when the violence started to a few days later,

when Severson failed to show up for a lunch date,

friends became suspicious, so they went to check on him

at his home, where they discovered his body. In the

fall of nineteen eighty six, Taylor decided to attend a

musical in Euclaire called Peace Child. Okay, have you ever

heard of that? Nope? Apparently it's been around for a while.

I've never heard of that. At the time, it had

the goal of improving relations between the US and Russia.

This was an eighty six Okay. Now it seems that

it has evolved to reflect modern day problems and seems

to mainly focus on climate change. So it's the sort

of dude, this was this is a whole rabbit hole.

I went on this thing called Peace Child, which is

essentially a production that focuses on it's told from the

perspective of the future, looking back at the path, Oh

and what people have done in the past to get

them there. Okay, generally speaking, Okay, this is why it

sort of evolves to face. At the time, the US

Russia relations were kind of the thing that was the

big thing. Is that no longer a thing? Well it

is in a very in a very different way. But yeah,

it's this. It's this whole thing. You can like go

if you look it up, like any So he went

to The reason I bring this up is because so

interesting he was, Like I said, he was described as

a sort of pacifist. Yeah.

Speaker 3: I was gonna say he probably eat the shit up. Yeah,

Like so my favorite musical he.

Speaker 1: Goes to see peace Child in Eau Claire.

Speaker 2: Uh.

Speaker 1: While at the University of Wisconsin Stout. He University of

Wisconsin Stout, he met and became friends with twenty seven

year old Timothy Hayden, who's working as a custodian. Okay.

Eventually Taylor and Hayden became roommates in an apartment in Menominee.

Now it's unclear, like I have seen it said both

that it was like Taylor's apartment and he invited Okay,

Hayden to come live with him. I've also seen it

that it was Hayden's apartment and he invited Taylor to

come live with them.

Speaker 3: I'm sure it's hard to like track, yeah, that kind

of thing.

Speaker 1: Yeah, So either way, they get this apartment in no Nominee.

During this time, it's reported Taylor had traveled to Portage

to kill someone. Oh, but while he was there, he

gets a sign that he was not actually supposed to

do that. Oh, Like, he goes to Portage and then

something happens that is a sign that's like, actually, don't

kill this person. Don't do this. Sure again from the

dun County News quote, while in Portage in February nineteen

eighty seven, Taylor saw a calendar with a girl on

it who reminded him of Hayden's estranged girlfriend. Oh. Interesting,

Taylor felt Hayden might hurt that girl. The calendar was

a sign that Taylor had to kill him in a

room with a water bed. Oh. Taylor returned to Menominee

and discovered Hayden had purchased a gun, and to Taylor,

this meant that he had gotten there just in time.

He was like, he just purchased his gun. See, this

is evidence of his plan that he's going to kill

this strange girlfriend. So thank god about I know, I know.

On March twenty eighth, nineteen eighty seven, Taylor shot and

killed Hayden with a pistol. Taylor was arrested for the

Hayden and Severson murders while attending Hayden's funeral drama. While

in custody, police questioned Taylor about William's death, although he

refused to cooperate at that point. And remember Williams was

the first person in this rented property like two years earlier,

so he's like, I'm not gonna say anything about that.

Authorities determined that the shell casings from both the Williams

and Hayden murders matched, and he was charged with the

third murder. Okay, Now, there was some denial about his involvement,

at least in Hayden's murder, due in part to his schizophrenia.

Right again from the dun County news quote. Taylor denied

killing Hayden, believing that the police, district attorneys, and even

the person running the polygraph machine were in on it,

and believed personnel at the dun County jail were going

to poison him. And that's so sad. Yeah. Now, during

their interrogations of Taylor, something unexpected happened. He confessed to

the murder of a fourth person, thirty three year old

Daniel Lundren. Oh my god, Alvin. Not only was it

surprising because they didn't expect a confession to another victim,

although they had already like once he was arrested, they

had been looking into Taylor in regards to other unsolved murders.

But it was interesting because Lungren's death was presumed to

be from injuries sustained in a car accident. Oh really, yeah,

what yeah, how's that work? So on November twenty ninth,

nineteen eighty six, Lungern was found in his crash car

on a rural road near West Bend, Wisconsin, oh Okay.

He was taken to three different hospitals, and after thirty

hours of attempts to save him, Lungern unfortunately died from

what the doctors assumed were injuries sustained from the accident.

Speaker 3: So he was so beat up and they found him

on the side of the road, They're like, oh, he

must have fallen.

Speaker 1: Well, let's talk about that. So there wasn't really a

question as to how he had died at the time,

and he was like buried in a standard funeral. However,

once Taylor confessed to a murder police didn't know was

a murder, they decided to exhume the body and they

want they wanted to inspect Lungeran's body for themselves, so

a forensic report to tan Lungren had been shot three

times in the head with a thirty eight caliber pistol,

and Taylor was subsequently charged with the murder. So at

the time of the murder, Taylor had been living with Lungren,

and police believed that the two got into an argument

about Taylor moving out. Okay, They also said it was

likely Taylor shot Lungren in the car and that he

was able to drive a short distance before losing consciousness

from the Dilute News Tribune quote. While medical officials said

Lungren would have died even if the doctors and others

had noticed the bullet holes, it was never explained how

so many medical professionals could have missed the gunshot wounds,

including failing to see the three holes that showed up

in an X ray that was taken but apparently never viewed.

Speaker 3: That's crazy. So they what in the mail practice? It

isn't that well, girl, what Like, I understand it's like

not necessarily male practice. I was like, you're not going

to check a car accident victim for gunshot.

Speaker 1: But they just weren't right. And he, I mean, the

car was in an accident, like he drove for a

short period before crashing. I guess it's understandable. And so

in all of this other blood and injury and everything,

I mean, I get why they're like, this was a

car accident, right, And first I also understand why they're like, well,

he died from his injuries. There is literally no reason

that they should have suspected that being a murder unless

I understand why they thought that somebody knew the x rays.

But I don't know if they just didn't view them

because they're like, we already know he hasn't had trauma

or whatever. Right, that makes sense? Hard to say, it

got an hard to say, Assumer. There was also the

reported attempted murder of a man named Paul Zwick in

December nineteen. In this incident, Taylor confessed to striking Zwick

with a hammer and stabbing him with a screwdriver. Now,

police did track this guy down, tracked Zwick down and

confirmed what Taylor was saying. He was like, that guy

did stand me with the driver, Yeah he was. He

absolutely corroborated everything that Taylor said. Yeah, he attacked me

with a hammer or screwdriver. Yeah. When they asked him

why he had not reported it, Zwick said that he

had enlisted in the Navy and literally like days after

the attack, he was out of Wisconsin. Right, So it's like, well,

you know, yeah, exactly, I understand. So he just never reported.

Speaker 3: That's pretty fin I love the idea of he's like.

Speaker 1: Yeah, oh yeah, I forgot the attack on you know,

I think there was something with this one guy.

Speaker 3: That's why they had Yeah, I forgot about that. What

a wacky time.

Speaker 1: Now, there were obvious questions about whether or not Taylor

had the ability to aid in his defense and stand trial. Initially,

the judge called for a psychiatric evaluation, but then she

reversed her decision, saying he was mentally combinant to assist

in his defense. This is from the Sheboygan Press quote.

Michael Fernstall, dun County District Attorney, said Taylor commented during

questioning that a force told him that Hayden and Severson

had to die, and as a soldier of God, it

was his mission to take care of these evil people.

Policeman Dale Udmundson also told Thursday's hearing that Taylor expressed

regrets about the slayings, but that God put him on

earth for that purpose and he's like, well, what are

you gonna do? And these are in the hearings, in

the interviews with the district attorney. Okay, okay. So in

a subsequent hearing, Taylor's attorney, John Kashinski, petition the court

for a psychiatric evaluation, which it's granted. So this is

really interesting to me because he goes before the judge,

George is like, yeah, psyche val and then she comes

back and says, nah, he's good. He's good. But even

at that point the distruct attorney was like, no, he's not.

I don't necessarily think he is right. I don't know

that he was fighting for it that hard, because really

it's better for them if he does stand trial right,

but also he's clearly not competence. Yeah. I get a

sense that they were kind of like, yeah, we knew

would right. The people who testified during the hearing where

he got the actual PsychEval like where he was granted.

The psychebel described Taylor as courteous and possessing good social skills.

One of the people who interviewed him, UW. Madison, professor

of psychology Greist, said, quote, Alvin is very pleasant, very polite,

very considerate person. He is a very nice person who

has a mental disease which drives him to be a

murderous person. End quote. Yeah. Another interviewer, doctor Paul Kellier, said, quote,

Alvin is very friendly. He's a likable person, but he

is deeply mentally ill and requires extensive hospitalization. YEA, So

two doctors being like no, he does. This is the

thing is like on the surface, it's like he's super friendly,

he's very personable, but you don't know, like what is

going on in the right what he's really his inking mind. Yeah,

you can be nice and personable and friendly and social

and still have these delusions, right, you know what I mean? Yep? Well,

and that's different. I was gonna say Ted Bundy's more

of a sociopath, right, right, right, right right.

Speaker 3: But that's the thing is, you never know, right, people

can act a certain way in public and be totally

different in their normal lives.

Speaker 1: And I don't think in this case like he was intentionally.

Like with sociopaths, it's an intentional front.

Speaker 3: I'm gonna be normal so that I can kill you

with a knife. You were not also sociopathy, it's like

a manipulative thing on purpose, yes, to get what they want.

This guy would just be normal and then all of

a sudden he'd hear a voice from the sky and

then he'd be like, I have to go do that thing. Right,

he's sick, exactly exactly.

Speaker 1: The exam confirmed Taylor's earlier diagnosis of paranoid schizophrenia, and

he was deemed incomponent to stand trial for the murder charges,

although he was found guilty and sentenced to twenty years

on the attempted murder charge against the attack ons wick

Y later district attorney. The district attorney would say in

an interview that although they had considered trying to dispute

Taylor's mental competency, it would have cost at taxpayers and

estimated one hundred thousand dollars to fight a losing battle.

Speaker 3: That's insane to me. That makes me really mad. What

like they would have had to that should be standards.

Speaker 1: Which I'm like, which part of that makes you? It

makes me mad that they couldn't. They couldn't.

Speaker 3: I understand that, like with the legal thing, how you're saying,

like it's better for them if they went to trial anyway,

But like he couldn't get the evaluations and the care

that he needed because it would cost too much.

Speaker 1: That's dumb. That makes me mad. Well, you know what

I mean? No, am I wrong? That's not what Okay,

So it would have in order for them to hire

their own experts to try to dispute the claims to dispute,

which that all comes out of taxpayer money, okay, And

that's what would have cost them so much. I see, Yeah,

not like the treatment, although yes, the treatment would be expensive.

But they are saying we didn't want to waste money

on what we thought was a losing battle by trying

to hire experts to dispute the claims. Okay, does that

make sense? Yes? Is that that what you thought? Is

that the same thing or no? Similar? Okay.

Speaker 3: I think it's a lot of like red tape. Yes,

Like they should be able to give everyone all of

the evaluations and shit that they need without.

Speaker 1: Being like, well, then it's gonna be too expensive. I mean,

yes and no, Yes, yes and no. I agree with

that in obvious cases of mental illness, and think there's

obvious cases where it's like, nah, this person is fine,

they're just a fucking asshole, right.

Speaker 3: Right, right, right right, you know, right right. I think

we feel the same way about it. It's just a

lot of red tape. Oh yeah, redtape bullshit for sure, Yeah,

for sure. So Taylor was ordered to be sent to

the Mendota Mental Health Institution in Madison, Wisconsin. The court

also said, in the event that he was released prior

to the twenty year mark, Taylor would be required to

serve the remainder of his time in prison in Washington County.

Following the trial, Taylor's attorney said that his mental illness

made communication during the trial impossible. He also was like,

this is I've literally never worked a case like this,

like it was.

Speaker 1: I'm sure you know. Taylor spent seventeen years at Mendota

before requesting release in two thousand and five, a request

that was denied. Okay. He filed a second position petition

in twenty ten that was also denied. A third attempt

came in February twenty thirteen, when his attorney said he

shouldn't be considered a danger as he didn't have any

violent issues during his time at Mendota. That is huge

although there wasn't anything violent. A number of facility employees

also testified during the hearing, saying Taylor was a high

risk and had a propensity for escape attempts and had

been seen multiple times checking the doors of like neighboring

rooms and clinics. H So even though he hadn't, it.

Speaker 3: Sounds like he's being squirrely watched this.

Speaker 1: Yeah, it sounds like there wasn't necessarily a full escape attempt.

And again like it wasn't violent. Like, that's not a lie.

It wasn't violent, but like.

Speaker 3: Right, he's also like this behavior of like it sure

looks like this guy's gonna go out a window, right right, understandable,

So I would want.

Speaker 1: To be there either. That request was denied. Yeah, Also

another petition was submitted in twenty fifteen. At this point,

Taylor was sixty eight and at the time he was

re examined, and the Medical Board said that he had

vastly improved and submitted their appeal to the next higher authority.

Unfortunately he would he would have needed approval from prosecutors

in both Dunn County and o'claire County, but the appeal

was denied. Well, it's because I understand no idea I

would say. It is frustrated for him. I know, I

feel bad for him. They had because he was had

murders in both counties have a story.

Speaker 3: When I differ in that, I think the legal systems

very annoying.

Speaker 1: It is, but I also think it is there to

afford protections on both sides of the aisle. I understand. Yeah.

A final petition was planned for March twenty twenty two,

but the Medical Board said that Taylor seventy five years

old at that point. Oh my gosh. They said that

his mental health had deteriorated due to his advanced age.

And Taylor continues to reside and receive treatment at Mendota

to this day. Wow, And honestly I think he will

likely he's there until he dies.

Speaker 3: Is so sad? I feel bad for everyone.

Speaker 1: Yeah, this is definitely a complicated case because I am

not defending the things that he did. I'm not making

excuses for them. Necessarily, they're bad. Murdering people is bad

pure to that. But I do think that the I mean,

there was clearly attempts by Taylor to receive help and

receive treatment. He was putting him. It wasn't like he

was going to these psychiatric facilities and seeing these doctors

and stuff because he was required to know. He was

doing it on his own right. He was really trying, right,

And I think once he got out of jail for

the crack cocaine thing, that it sort of knocked him

off kilter and kind of got him out of this

routine of seeing people Like Frankly, after four years, it's like, Okay,

where am I? Where are my people located? Do I

have to get new doctors, like.

Speaker 3: He's stabilizing, he's stabilizing. Of that, it's difficult to get

yourself settled, especially out of prison where they don't take

care of people at all.

Speaker 1: And let's be real, like nineteen eighties, say he had

your color is very different. Yeah, it's very different to

what is available today. I think too, as evidenced by

his improvement from being at the facility to because it

was what twenty fifteen when the medical board was like,

he's doing really really well, and that's like twenty I

mean nineteen eighty twenty fifteen, Like that's a lot of time,

big leaps, big improvements in medication.

Speaker 3: And they're advocating practices that's wonderful. Like I I feel

really bad. I hope that he's getting adequate help at

this located and since he's so old and so many

things have happened in society, it's like I don't want

to say, maybe that's the best place for him, because

I don't know, Like, I hope they're treating him nicely.

Speaker 1: Nice I didn't see anything really controversial about Mendota in

the middle that I saw. He's an old man.

Speaker 3: They probably just have to double lock the door.

Speaker 1: He's testing all the doors.

Speaker 3: They're like, hey, sit down, but that's sad.

Speaker 1: That's the story of Alvin Taylor. That bummed me out. Sorry, sorry,

not sorry.

Speaker 3: Actually, mental hull such a good topic.

Speaker 1: Caitlyn actually in front of the show, Caylen, I love Caitlyn.

Speaker 3: I miss you, Caitlin. You the only Aquarius I'll ever love.

That's interesting. Your case got me thinking a lot about

like legal competency, like which I've always found is I'll

say it's inadequate. I don't think most of the time

with these cases, I don't agree with the outcome, you know,

and especially like in cases like yours, it almost makes

it like a little easier to feel that way because

it's like he seemed like a nice guy. Lots of

people had nice things to say about him. He was

trying to get help on his own. So it's like, well, yeah,

I lost my train of thought. I forgot what I

was willing. Lego competency, Yeah, legal competency.

Speaker 1: I think the interesting thing too is when you're talking

about legal competency, there's two areas you have to consider. Right.

There is the ability to aid in your defense. Right

is like one table Yes. The other table is insanity

or the ability to understand what you were doing at

the time the alleged crime was committed. Right, They're like

two separate camps and they are considered separately. Right. It's

so interesting, Yeah, because I mean there is like precedent,

times of precedent for like temporary insanity, like temporary psychosis,

you know, a breaking point where you're literally your brain

is just like right, I'm gonna do whatever the fuck. Yeah,

brains is weird. Yeah, not all the time, because also

I think people try to overuse that when you're talking

about sanity at the time of Yeah.

Speaker 3: And that's very That can be very hard to determine

as well. And I think it's interesting the strides that

they've made to try to determine that. But I think

and even me defending the legal system never but I

think it's it's very difficult to do. Mental health is

a big ever change animal, and it can be difficult

to like have markers. You can't just plug your brain

into like one of them car computer things where it

like diagnoses you, which I wish we could do. Wouldn't

that be nice where it's like, hey, girl.

Speaker 1: You have OCD.

Speaker 3: You never knew that before, but it's here in your

brain report.

Speaker 1: It's like, no, I don't want to know about the

things that I don't know that I have. I want

to know I'm still sad. I am thirty five. I

have made the adjustments I need to make. I handle

my life just fine. It's funny because I had a

conversation with somebody a while ago that I worked with

where we were talking about eighty D and eighty HD,

and I was like, you know, I think that could

possibly be something that's going on with me. But even

if that was, like, I don't one, I am not

on like a severe level where it's like totally incapacitating.

But also even if I were to be recommended to

take medication, I don't know that I would because I've

lived for so long. Yeah, with coping mechanisms that work fine. Yep.

Like clearly I am not debilitated in a corner not

being able to like clean my house or shower, get

work done or whatever. It is like it's not that

you know what I mean, So and that's understandable that

I want to know every And that's the thing. Mental

health can be on such a spectrum. We we discuss

it all the time. With autism also gangay, where it's

a spectrum. You can have a little tiny.

Speaker 3: Bit where it goes to what we used to refer

as aspergers to you can have what they call like

level four autism, which is like you cannot care for yourself.

Very different, but lots of lots of mental health things.

There are certain ones like schizophrenia where I don't think

you can have like a teeny little bit of skitz.

Speaker 1: You can't even notice it, just a little time. I

also think is over there's like a difference between mental

health and mental illness. Oh totally totally, but it's it's

it's like a square. It's like a square rectangle situation,

right like, uh, every what is that? Every square a rectangle,

rectangle is a square. So like theangle does.

Speaker 3: Have mustaches, but not all mustache man or pedos, right that.

Speaker 1: So like the rectangle is mental health the square, there's

one square that's mental illness.

Speaker 3: And if you're going through your life and everything's cool,

there's no need to open that door. You know, I

totally understand I want that door open. But it's like

for people who have strugg and it's like, hey, why

is the why am I having so much trouble with it?

Speaker 1: It's like, hey, but.

Speaker 3: It's like it's not so easy as plug your brain

into the car computer. Unfortunately, it's it's a lot of

a lot of steps to try to figure out, like

what's wrong with me? And when we go into cases

like yours, where part of his paranoid delusions were that

everyone was out to get him, especially after having gone

through prison where I'm sure I'm casting a wide net

that he probably saw law enforcement officers doing bad things.

I'm sure that he did. So he was like, oh

my god, Like, how can I go to these people

and say I'm having problems when I see how they

read people who did the same thing.

Speaker 1: Well, And he might not have thought it was a problem, right,

this happens your entire life. You're like, these are just normal,

it's fat right, they do everybody like right? Absolutely clearly,

I mean clearly he did know it was a problem

because he was going to certain l And I've heard people,

again super different with everyone's experiences, but I've heard people

with like schizo effective say that some of the voices

and the impulses and things are are nice, are comforting.

So it's like, well, that part's not bad. Why would

you think that?

Speaker 3: But it's like it's kind of a slippery slope where

it's like, how much do you listen to that voice?

Speaker 1: You know? I don't know girl.

Speaker 3: Today's uh, today's guests. She's not here, she's in prison. Okay,

today's subject this is this is the mental health episode,

and you're going to see, Uh, well, I'm going to

tell you how mental health affected her her whole life.

She never received an official diagnosis, which I've always found

pretty surprising based on how much court and shit that

she went through. Yeah, I will say I think her

diagnosis is fairly obvious. Okay, but yeah, it's a clear

mental health thing. And unlike your case, you're not going

to like this girl. Okay, you're not gonna like her

one bit.

Speaker 1: Okay.

Speaker 3: I felt real bad for Alvin. I do feel sorry

for this woman in certain ways. But I think that

she was a lot more culpable than he was. And

that's interesting too, is like the legal culpability. How responsible

are you?

Speaker 1: She? She was responsible. Let's talk about her.

Speaker 3: So we're going to talk about Elizabeth Wettlawfer Okay, also

Parker because she got married. Okay, this case came across

came across my desk in a pretty typical way that

I pick cases, which is interrogations. Her interrogation after the

fact is on YouTube. I'll link it in the show notes.

It's very interesting. It's very weird, very weird to see

her talk about this stuff. Yeah, like it's normal. Yeah,

let's get into it. So she is from Canada. This

is a Canadian case. Canada A So Elizabeth wet Laugher

was born and raised around where like Woodstock is in Ontario, Okay,

born and raised in that area. Not a ton is

known about her early life, just like with your case again,

except for what she said, which like do I believe

her right?

Speaker 1: Not really?

Speaker 3: Well, her early life just seemed very religious. Her family

was super Baptist, and then she went to she went

to like Baptist college when she went to secondary school

that was also a religious.

Speaker 1: Were they like this, the skirt wearing Baptists. Yeah, no,

women don't wear pants kind of it seemed to be.

Speaker 3: I will say she was wearing pants in her confession,

but this.

Speaker 1: Was when she was nursing. She oh, well, yeah, she

did have pants. Do they make like skirt scrubs? I

is that a thing. I don't think so. I imagine that

they would have to because they do have to make

religious exemptions for.

Speaker 3: I don't think the clothing skirt is necessarily I think

it's just that you have to be covered because I

almost know, like medically, I almost well, I'm just saying,

like in a medical thing, I don't know if they

could get away with making a skirt because it could

catch on shit.

Speaker 1: You know, it does like.

Speaker 3: Expose you underneath, you know you could.

Speaker 1: I don't know, I don't know. It just seems I

mean they make they make exceptions for other clothing items,

that's true.

Speaker 3: It just seems like like a fucking MAXI skirt would

suck shit in a hospital. I don't feel like that.

Speaker 1: Are you googling? I'm going to look in. She wasn't

a night or anything, but she was just like hella Baptist. Well,

menon nits aren't Baptists.

Speaker 3: Well no, right, right, But I mean like men like

mena nights and homage people have to dress in a

certain way and their women are like allowed to wear pants.

Speaker 4: You know.

Speaker 1: I don't think, but there's that there is a section

of Baptists, yes, that does that yes, that's true.

Speaker 3: There are the people who talk to snakes. That's fund

that's Baptists, isn't it.

Speaker 1: Oh I think so. Yeah. So there is a belief

within some some Baptist traditions that women should not wear trousers,

as it's seen as violating Deuteronomy twenty two five. A

woman shall not wear what pertains to a man. Fuck off,

we're a fake. Some independent or Southern Baptist churches encourage

skirts dresses for women and slacks for men, viewing pants

as unfeminine. Quote, though it varies greatly, right, So I

asked because when I went to middle school with a girl,

there was one of my like in our group of

friends whose family was like super religious. Yeah, well we

this is so bad. Okay, I just want to say

I was a child. I love. We used to call

her pants girl because she wasn't and it was like

an endearing nicking. No no, no, no, total because she wasn't

allowed to wear pants. And like in gym class, we

had the red gym uniforms, you know, and she had

to wear culotts that were longer. Stupid. Yeah, that's so

anyway stupid. It's a total aside. That's the only reason

I know about any of this stupid. I feel like, honestly,

I feel like being friends with somebody whose family was

involved in religion like that and being exposed to it

so early for me. You were like, no, well, no,

I think honestly, I think this is one of these

I never thought about it before now, but park me

wonders if this is one of those formative experiences for me.

That is why I am so interested in religions, different

religions and things. You know, I think that's interesting.

Speaker 3: There was a girl that we I'll tell you later.

Speaker 1: We went.

Speaker 3: We went to high school with her, who was part

of like a she her family I believe was Jehovah's witness,

and she was the nicest girl, the sadist girl. Always

dressed very modestly. I don't think she always wore long skirts,

but she did sometimes, and her hair was very long.

She was the nicest person to talk to, but sometimes

when I talked to her, I would feel so.

Speaker 1: Sad for her.

Speaker 3: There was a time when people were talking about like Halloween, like,

oh my god, what are you gonna be for Halloween?

She was like, oh, we're not allowed to celebrate.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 3: I was like what you know, I was like twelve

such like way, like what the hell?

Speaker 1: Right?

Speaker 3: I just felt so bad. It just seems so limiting.

And that's my opinion anyway. Yeah, total assign opinion. So

she's going wet law for this lady is going through

all of this like Bible college, Hella, Bible college. And

she wanted to sort of explore nursing, Okay, even if

she wasn't going to be like a full ass nurse,

she wanted to be around the medical community. So she

was trying to figure out what was the best way

for her to do that. So in two thousand and seven,

she was hired at Caresse Care Caress You Carefully, which

was a long term It was like a care home okay,

in like hometown off like assisted.

Speaker 1: Living or more like nursing home I or like like

a physical therapy No no, no, more like a nursing

home okay.

Speaker 3: So it's like eldercare, yes, And that was where she

would spend the majority of her her time would be

in elder care facilities.

Speaker 1: Okay.

Speaker 3: That was kind of like her niche. I think health

care is so fascinating because there's like you could do anything,

you know, there's so many different specifics of type of care.

It's like I want to work with the elderly, or

it's like you can work with elderly in this way,

or you can work in a hospice, or you can

work in you know, regenerative care or in home care.

Speaker 1: Or dementia war. Right.

Speaker 3: I think it's just interesting that there's so much opportunity

in health care. That's all. That's all. So when she

first started there, everyone was like, Okay, she's like pretty cool,

pretty professional. But she was having a lot of like

internal issues at the time. So it was another just

like your casehere, everyone was like, no, she's chill, but

inside she was having a lot of problems.

Speaker 1: Now she is more of a masking situation.

Speaker 3: Absolutely, absolutely, And at the time she was she didn't

really say what led her to this, And this is

something that is sort of like, how did you come

to this? Because you're like, hell, a Baptist, you didn't

even go to fun college. You went to Baptist college.

But she somehow found her way into alcohol and drug addiction,

which is it not present in biblical places. No, I'm

not saying that at all, but it's just kind of

surprising that she would find herself there when she seems

like she led such like a sheltered life, So I

wonder what was going on mentally for her to kind

of cling to that.

Speaker 1: I will also say, as somebody who went to a

religious college, yeah, I do think there is a certain

amount of like really embracing the freedom that happened.

Speaker 3: Absolutely, my parents aren't here telling me what to do.

It's like those uh Amish kids on rum.

Speaker 1: Springer, because I used I used party with a lot

of people who are like hell yeah, masters and deacons

and deaconessen freaking deacon. Yeah yeah, Like I party hardy

with a lot of those people. When I absolutely was

at Concordia and I was only there for like a

year and a half.

Speaker 3: It's just, you know what, I'm funny, Like I know

it exists, it just seems so it's funny that she's

just this like chaste woman and yeah, she's like, whoa

my girl? And this would leak into her professional life.

So when she first started, everyone was like this chick

is mad cool, and then they were like, hey, are

you like drunk at work? Could you actually not fucking

do that?

Speaker 1: Jesus? And then like they.

Speaker 3: Would find her passed out. Oh god, yeah, okay, she

would just be passed out places. So during this like

tenure at this Carescent Care, she would end up being

suspended four times. Now, these were specifically for medication related errors.

So it was kind of like are because everyone would

say when she was like being normal, she was like

a pretty competent care, but it was like are you

like you know, pop in some shops and then trying

to Oh no, this is probably your medicine.

Speaker 1: And this is like an overdispensing, underspensing or wrong medication

or both.

Speaker 3: So she would these were all non specific.

Speaker 1: Well that's what I I mean, that's what I imagine

under medication. That's the thing.

Speaker 3: It was like, I don't know exactly at this point

whether she was overprescribing, underprescribing, giving the wrong but when

she eventually got fired in March twenty fourteen from Carescent Care,

it was over a quote serious incident where she did

give a patient the wrong medication.

Speaker 1: Because I mean that could end somebody's life. Abs, Oh,

it sure could. It takes one pill to literally fucking

kill somebody.

Speaker 3: Right, Like, and I understand, you know, people make mistakes.

It's like, oh, I'm supposed to give them a little more.

I give a little less.

Speaker 1: You know, I understand that, but it's like, oh my god,

like so many advice. You don't get drunk at work.

Speaker 3: Yeah, don't do that, and maybe double check your fucking

notes because this is important. I'm sure there's medication. I'm

allergic to read your chart.

Speaker 1: This is this is why they have a qualified pharmacists

dispensing medication pharmacy unsung goddamn hero.

Speaker 3: Yes, dude, that's a hard job. Yes, oh my god. Anyway,

so you're good at counting, go be a pharmacist because

they need farms.

Speaker 1: I love just counting all day. I feel like it's

like my son's dream job. I'm like, this would be

the pride. I'm like, this would be the perfect job

for that flavor of tism.

Speaker 3: It's actually like a very specific A lot of autistic

people get into that kind of thing. Really, you don't

have to talk to people all the time, right, A

lot of it is you're in the back, like sorting ship,

just counting. That's one of those things where I'm autistic,

and I always feel like when I'm in public or

i'm meeting new people, I can kind of like peek

and be like, you're also autistic. You're also autistic. And

as soon as they're like I'm in pharmacy, I'm like

high twin. So how do you feel about trains?

Speaker 1: Let's talk about that. I love just one of those

careers that kind of takes people interesting.

Speaker 3: But I'm unfortunately, unfortunately, I'm not the kind of autistic. No,

I'm not no no no, no, no no, And I

don't like trains.

Speaker 1: So what use am I?

Speaker 3: Uh So, this firing from this job was like again,

we're going back to the other one. A destabilizing event

for Elizabeth. This was huge to her that she could

have fallen so far, and she ended up around this

time checking herself into a drug rehab facility. Okay, I

don't know if I've mentioned it should be kind of obvious,

but her she was stealing drugs from the hospital. This

is how she got all of her medication. She was

like a heroin addict.

Speaker 1: She was.

Speaker 3: She was stealing medicine. So I think a lot of

the things that will come up about like wow, I

accidentally gave this guy less of his vicodin.

Speaker 1: I'm like, because you took this pocketing? Correct?

Speaker 3: Correct? So she went to her drug rehab, she was

doing her program. She was obviously at this time having

trouble holding down a job because it's like, don't do that.

So she was doing like little temp home temporary jobs

at local care homes, and she would get fired from

these places and a lot of it. It's sort of

interesting in like the medical world. I was surprised that

there wasn't as much like details about the specific things

that she did each specific time, because it's kind of

like like a protective scenario. So a lot of I'm

a big healthcare advocate, love healthcare workers, love you, thank

you for making us not sick. But the medicare system,

not Medicare, the medical system, the hospital, the hospital, it's

a bunch of rich there's a lot of protections. Yeah,

don't they want to protect to the facility from mapp

practice or potential lawsuits. So there was a lot of

that where it's like I was amazed that she was

able to get jobs and other care homes after making

this giant mistake, but it is kind of it reminded

me of how obviously different scenario, but of how Catholic

people will be like, oh, this priest was caught didlan,

We're just going to put him to another facility, same thing,

they absolutely say. I was disappointed because I recognize that

pattern autistically.

Speaker 1: That's the kind of autism I.

Speaker 3: Have where I was like, girl, fire her, Like what

do you do? And they were like, no, no, no,

you can just work somewhere else because you have these qualifications.

I'm like, shut the fuck up. So around this time,

so she would be fired from some of these care jobs,

some of these little like temp jobs, for stealing medication,

for making medical errors. One of these errors that she

made was almost resulted in the death of a patient

because she was high off her ass and so she

gave gave them too much and they almost died. And again,

these are elderly people, so it's like they're probably they're

very fragile.

Speaker 1: They're fragile, be careful, fragile.

Speaker 3: Around this time, she decided, oh, I'm gonna be creative

and start writing poetry, poetry about murder. Okay, So she

was at this time writing poetry that doesn't mean anything.

Speaker 1: I want to kill. Yeah, my patient named Bill.

Speaker 3: It's like girl step. So she had been at this

care home, the care home she got fired from the

big one Carescent Care for seven years, so that was

her thing. She was at that home. She got fired,

she went to rehab, and now she's trying to do

temp jobs. So we're gonna go back in time a

little bit while she's still at Carescent Care. So at

this time, she would start injecting some of the patients

that she cared for with insulin. Okay, she was not

super supposed to do that, so she was like a

nursing assist. So her main job was like I don't

want to say that, she was like a candy striper

because she did have medical she was allowed to give medication,

but she wasn't allowed to count it. Like it would

be like the nurse or the pharmacist or the doctor

whoever the hell did it at that facility, would like

count out all the medication and then like give her

I'm assuming the bottle, go and give this stink and dispense.

Speaker 1: But they can't. I mean that's the same thing with

like the if you go, I don't know about you.

When I get vaccinated, I tend to just go to

like Walgreens. Oh yeah, totally, Like the person behind the

counter can't do that. The fronds has to give the injection.

That's exactly right. Yeah.

Speaker 3: Yet and that was the situation where it was like

she was not supposed to be fucking doing that. Yeah,

so Elizabeth Wettlawfer was injecting some of her patients at

Carescent Care with insulin. She was not supposed to fucking

do this. Oh great, love that, let's move on. So

sometime she wouldn't always put like a crazy amount. She

would just do like a little bit like here and there,

almost like she was like experimenting.

Speaker 1: It's almost like seeing what you can get away with,

like did anybody notice that? I? Oh, yes, you know,

And I'll get back.

Speaker 3: To that as Yeah. So sometimes it wasn't like a

huge amount, and sometimes it was. And during this time

they started to sort of like look into not well

she was at Caurescent Care. But afterwards when she went

to the drug program, she started to say certain things

because at these drug treatment centers, a lot of the

time they'll have group therapy right where they're like, hey,

what's the worst thing you've ever done? She's like, oh, boy,

you guys want She's like, well, after this stirring reading

of my murder poetry, you know I did she's like, hey,

we're all drug addicts. We've all done bad things. They're

like yeah, for sure, and she's like, I've killed and

they were like what I know when the.

Speaker 1: People who are doing bad things are like that's fucking bad.

She's like problem. She's like, I thought this was a

safe space.

Speaker 3: And they were like, no, Elizabeth, we're dientated reporters, not

that kind of safe space. So she confessed to her

This is after she's already been fired, so I'm kind

of like time skipping a little bit here, but she confessed,

oh yeah. But she was like, hey, you know, we

all do stuff when we're fucked up.

Speaker 1: And they're like, we.

Speaker 3: Don't do that, Elizabeth. We have to tell people, Elizabeth,

And she was like, oh, I wouldn't have told you

if I thought you were gonna fucking tell people. Good dick,

we've all done bad things. I thought this was in confidence.

They're like, no, Elizabeth, you're good. So they started to

look into her past at this carescent care and it

seems like her first assaults were somewhere between like June

and December of two thousand and seven. Okay, so right

when she started, when she I was Okay. So she

goes to this group, she's like, I done did the murder.

I'm assuming the.

Speaker 1: Therapist or whoever was the guides mandated they reported it

and then police started investigatorrect So I don't even think

she was aware of it at this time in twenty

fourteen ish when she was confessing, but they were doing

sort of like investigating at that time because she had confessed,

but that was the first time that anyone had investigated

her crimes or her behavior. Sure officially, okay, okay, so

this is how this is kind of occurring. So they

figured out that between June and December twenty two thousand

and seven, which is the year she started. So it's like, girl,

she had began injecting patients wrongfully with insulin, either the

wrong amount or they weren't supposed to have fucking insulin.

Two sisters again, this was an elderly care home. Albina

Demidiros and Adriano, who were eighty seven and eighty eight, respectively,

poor sisters. She injected them with insulin to the point

that they passed away. Jeez.

Speaker 3: Because this was at an elder care home, the deaths

were not attributed to her at that time.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 3: Before that, there was another murder, James Silcox, who was

eighty fourth, poor guy, father of six. He was a

decorated World War Two veteran, and he was I believe

actually the first one that they could figure out where

she injected him with a shit ton of fucking.

Speaker 1: Insulin and he died.

Speaker 3: Here are the names, and the ages and the years,

all of I'm just gonna give you everything, Okay, Of

all of the people that she was convicted of killing, Okay,

Gladys Millard was wait, well, the first one after the

James Silcox I just said, was Maurice Granitt, who was

eighty four. That was in two thousand and seven. Then

there's a little jump to twenty eleven where she killed

Gladys Millard eighty seven, Mary Zorrowinsky ninety six, and Helen

Matheson ninety five. So it does seem not always, but

it seems like the ages kind.

Speaker 1: Of get older and older and older. Well, even honestly,

even at eighty seven, it seems to me that even

amongst this pool of older folks, right, she's aiming for

the oldest, the oldest, the older, fakest of the pack,

well and less noticeable absolute like you know, it's just yep,

that's not great.

Speaker 3: Not great, that's not great. She then takes another little break.

Twenty thirteen, she murdered Helen Young, age ninety, and then

twenty fourteen, which was the year she got fired, she

killed seventy nine year old Maureene.

Speaker 1: Pickering seventy nine.

Speaker 3: Yeah, wow, younger, Okay, babe, just a babeeah, the little

baby spring chicken. Absolutely. There were two other cases where

she confessed to trying to murder a patient with insulin

but it didn't work. So that was fifty seven year

old Wayne Hedges and sixty three year old Michael Prittle.

Speaker 1: Wow, youngest. Fuck.

Speaker 3: So it's like maybe, and you know, who knows people's

medical history or so convoluted, who's to save it? It's

like maybe because they were younger, their bodies were able

to fight it off, yeah, you know, or they gave

out more distressing signals than the elderly people who were

probably already giving out distressing some signals just living their day.

Speaker 1: To day life.

Speaker 3: So she was done with Kressa Karen twenty fourteen because

she got fired, and again it wasn't her firing wasn't

directly connected to a specific case that could start like

a criminal trial. They were just like, hey, you made

a mistake, you gotta go. Yeah, we don't even know

who that person was, right, you know what I mean.

So when she was doing her temp work, when she

was still trying to like treat her drug addiction. After

she got fired, she injected three more people, killed one

and injected two. So she injected Sandra Trowler seventy seven,

and Beverly Bertram, both at separate homes. They with intent

to murder. She said, she said, I wanted to kill

these people.

Speaker 1: It just didn't work.

Speaker 3: And then she killed a Arpad hove Arth who was

seventy five. Okay, pretty crazy. So she's just out here,

out here murdering. So when she was at the Center

for Addiction and Mental Health in Toronto, she confessed, which

I've already said. Obviously, they were like, hey, we have

to tell the police, but I don't even know if

they informed her.

Speaker 1: Probably not.

Speaker 3: She then so she was still in like the there's

a Canadian thing College Nurses of Ontario.

Speaker 1: It's like they're like thingy.

Speaker 3: So after that it's they're like, uh, bored yessications certified body. Yes, yes,

it's like you're a nurse, you're in that organization.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 3: So she emailed them and was like, hey, so love

working for you guys, but I actually kind of have

to resign because she had quote deliberately harmed patients in

her care and was now being investigated by the police

for the same. So this was two years later.

Speaker 1: And she she went to the licensing board correct and

said that.

Speaker 3: She emailed them and was like, hey, how are you

so anyway, I actually have to resign because I have

And she just said deliberately harmed. She wasn't like this

resulted in people's deaths or I wanted to kill She

was like, I accidentally.

Speaker 1: I wonder if the thinking was like, it's gonna look

better if I resign, then they come in and revoke

my license. Correct, because of that, that's why it would

look better.

Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, this is all I said before I'll link

the interrogation, which will describe a lot more of like

her personality.

Speaker 1: She is very very.

Speaker 3: Very manipulative, very manipulative, very I'm just a poor little lady,

and I have so many struggles in life that I've

probably made up.

Speaker 1: Yea, very much. That okay, very much?

Speaker 3: That okay, So they found out as this investigation is

going on because now obviously the nursing board is like,

holy shit, she's confessing to this, Let's give this to

the police. And then the police are working with the

nursing board and they are kind of going through talking

to people that she knew, and they found out that

she had confessed many times. She had confessed to friends,

she had confessed to other nurses, she had confessed to

her bosses, and nobody believed her or did anything about it. Yeah,

they were just like, you crazy girl.

Speaker 1: I don't know why. I think that's nuts.

Speaker 3: I know so many people in healthcare, and if any

of them, who I all love were to come up

and be like, I killed a guy, I'd be like,

that's great, I'm gonna call the police.

Speaker 1: Unless they thought she was kidding or you know, any

friends with someone like that, like hahah so funny. Yeah.

Speaker 3: So the interrogations over two hours, but it's really interesting.

And after this confession, because they pretty much right after

she emailed the nursing board, they were like, all right,

we're gonna we're gonna actually take it to the police station.

So they pulled her in. She did a two hour

confession where she did confess to at least all that

we've said here, although this is the thing with medical murders,

she could have murdered a shit ton more people and

made people sick.

Speaker 1: And we would have no idea. So she was.

Speaker 3: Formally charged with the eight murders October twenty fifth, twenty sixteen.

They ended up tacking onto that like four more counts

of attempted murder and two counts of aggravated assault. So

by the time the court was like going in like

early twenty seventeen, she had added all of these charges.

Speaker 1: Okay, So she.

Speaker 3: Ended up confessing in court, pled guilty, and on June

twenty sixth of twenty seventeen, she was sentenced to eight

concurrent life terms in prison, and in twenty five years

she'll get parole. But she's already like pretty middle aged.

I think she'll be like in her seventies by the

time that works. So this is where sort of the

mental health part comes into play, because it's like, obviously

she was stealing medication, Obviously she had this drug and

alcohol problem, but it's like, why was she Why was

she doing this for what she seemed like such like

a nice she looks like a little round dumpling. She

looks like somebody's mom. She's like super cute. Yeah, and

it's like, what the fuck. So she admitted this was

in her confession quote. She knew the difference between right

and wrong.

Speaker 1: But that she would have these.

Speaker 3: Surges, which is something I think you almost directly said

about our last guy, the guy that you covered. She

would have these powerful urges. She said that she would

be filled up with red red. The color red would

envelop her whole body. She would hear uncontrollable laughing and

crackling like fire over like the pits of hell.

Speaker 1: Whatever.

Speaker 3: Again, she was Hella Rist, So I'm sure that would

be scary for her. Yeah, she said that she would

she would try to stop, but that she couldn't. She

couldn't stop, and when she felt that surge, which would

come over when she was seeing patients, she wouldn't be

able to stop herself.

Speaker 1: Yeah. Interesting. Yeah, And I'm sure, like you said, like,

as a religious person, that would be very scary, very scary.

I think it's also the other way, right, Like I

think being and growing up religious colored those Delusia.

Speaker 3: Absolutely, that's something I find that's I could talk about

one hundred years as we all know. But that's very interesting,

is like how your life affects the things that scare you.

Speaker 1: Yeah, that's so interesting.

Speaker 3: But like very very true, very true. But on the

other hand, because she in court she was like I

felt no joy. She really portrayed it as like I

am this poor woman who's being bound along by the

tides of fate, which is kind of how I feel

about your guy. Yeah, where it's like I didn't want

to do this, this was my mental illness that I've

never been diagnosed with. This was all this stuff. But

you're writing murder poetry. Yeah, and you're talking about it

like it's really not a big deal. When you watch,

when you watch, you will watch when you watch her interrogation,

she really does not seem sorry. She's not crying. She's

sort of like, well they were old. She kind of

has that like thingy, that like mindset of it, which

fucking gotcha.

Speaker 1: Gotcha.

Speaker 3: So she was at first held at the Grand Valley

Institution for Women in Kitchener, Ohio, Ohio, Ontario, but then

in March twenty eighteenth, she was transferred to She's at

a medical facility for unspecified medical treatment, Canada. Is pretty

hush hush about this, the kind of personal information. I

don't know if it's hipp over there, but hippa Canadian hippa.

Speaker 1: They take it like real fucking serious. Yeah.

Speaker 3: I just think it's so crazy that this like little

dumpling of a woman like ended up murdering probably way

more people than the eighth I feel like there's no way.

And all of her fellow nurses were complaining about her

like being slappy, high at work, passing out sometimes, and

they were just kind of like, oh, well, that's too bad,

Like she could have been stopped a million time.

Speaker 1: I mean if you look at it though, too, Like

if she is having those delusions, right, if indeed that

is what's happening, then I'm sure the dragon alcohol use

was a way to cope, right, right, And because it

doesn't seem to me necessarily that she was like all

fucked up when she was.

Speaker 3: That's the thing we don't know. That's what's so fascinating

is like mental health is so it requires so much

information that we don't have, you know, So it's like,

was she abused in childhood? And and that can greatly

affect your mental health and your propensity for drugs and alcohol.

We don't know, you know, we don't know, but I

think I think the and she talks a lot more

about it in the interrogation, but the description to me

seemed like she'd read it somewhere. I will say, I

don't believe her.

Speaker 1: I don't. I don't think that she has no I

think it was just like a mental health defense attempt. Yeah, interesting,

I mean, which is also something that happens all the time.

That's not uncommon, sure does unfortunately, because like makes everybody

else look bad well, and it makes it harder for

somebody that does have for legitimate illness, unless it is

like severe and very obvious, like to get these sort

of accommodations that they need in trials. And that's why

I understand Canada is very like private, but I would

love I would love some so creepy.

Speaker 3: I want to get my hands on her medical records.

I want to see what they're doing. I want to

see because if she gets a legitimate diagnosis of like

any kind of schizo effective or or psychosis, then that

would change how I feel where I feel that she

just doesn't really care. Yeah, and she was doing it

for attention and like thrill. That's how I feel. But

you don't know, so it's like.

Speaker 1: Yeah, but I mean, and even if if she's doing

it for attention and thrill, like then you sort of

breach into this Munchausen correct sort of. And that's man.

Speaker 3: I could write a thesis about like crime, like where

crime comes from and and our separation from it as

a societyst very interesting, yea interesting. But that's the gross

and the yucky case of Elizabeth Wetlaffer, who I hope

never gets released. And I'm very sorry to the victims

and their families. Like you put people in a care home,

you think they're going to be well taken care of.

This bitch is just sulining them up, just tube them in.

Speaker 1: Terrible. It's gross, it's grossy.

Speaker 4: I don't have to tell you things are bad. Everybody

knows things are bad.

Speaker 1: It's a depression, everybody.

Speaker 4: Losing their job.

Speaker 1: Well, that has been our show. Yeah, thank you so

much for listening. Don't have any final thoughts before we

wrap up.

Speaker 3: Maybe we should all go to therapy, I mean, anybody

and walked into the office together.

Speaker 1: Peace, love, and prosperity. Yeah queens, yes, queen, Yeah, all right,

if you enjoyed this episode, you can find more just

like this at bad Taste podcast dot com. Just like

our sound and editing is by tip Fulman. Our music

is by Jason Zakshevski vo Enigma. This has been the

Bad Taste Crime Podcast. We will see you in two weeks.

Speaker 2: Goodbye along the Highway audience, It was as if the

wave that people washed over it was town.

Speaker 1: We were all you were warning some form more than

another