Episode 222 - Doctor Rumspringa

The files are thick, but the leads are paper-thin. This week, we’re ditching the tidy endings for the cases that keep us up at night. No handcuffs, no DNA breakthroughs, and zero closure—just the chilling anatomy of the unsolved. We’re exploring why some mysteries refuse to die and how a trail goes from red-hot to ice-cold.

Research links below!

The Guardian - "The mysterious lunching of Frank Little: activist who fought inequality and lost"
Story of Butte - "The Murder of Frank Little"
Frank's Little Farm - "Who is Frank Little?"
UFCW324 - "Frank Little: A Murder in Butte"

BBC - "MI6 'body-in-a-bag': No new DNA in Gareth Williams review, says Met"
Mirror - "'Unbreakable' code baffled detectives investigating mystery of MI6 spy found dead in bag"
Crime and Investigation - "The bag in the bath: What happened to Gareth Williams?"
The Independent - "Police claim to have solved London 'spy in the bag' mystery"
Firecracker - "The spy in the bag: New revelations - Channel 5"
The Guardian - "Gareth Williams: the key unanswered questions"
"The Independent - "MI6 spy Gareth Williams was 'killed by Russia for refusing to become double agent', former KGB man claims"

Speaker 1: Why they discovered upon their arrivals unspeakable. I'm not doing

if they did want bother, it's the living.

Speaker 2: You gotta worry about.

Speaker 1: Something. If I couldn't keep them there with me whole,

at least I felt that I could keep their skeletons.

Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome to the Bad Taste Crime Podcast.

Speaker 1: I'm Rachel, I'm Vicky.

Speaker 2: Hello, Hello, Hello, Hello, Hello.

Speaker 1: Becaw's it going. It's going so good. I feel so

disoriented from the ten minutes of coughing prior to this,

because they think there's a hair advice.

Speaker 2: If you have like tuberculosis or like whatever kills people

in like old movies.

Speaker 1: You're gonna like call me old. You're no, that's what

I got out of that. Well, you are atoned.

Speaker 2: You know soon you're gonna pull out in a delicate

lacy handkerchief and cough blood into it. And we'll go

that the end is near. But the cotillion who will attend?

Speaker 1: We can only hope the end is near.

Speaker 2: Let's manifest that together. Close your eyes, go into the light.

Speaker 1: My goodness. If this is your first time listening, a

hello to you, your.

Speaker 2: First time listening, you've probably already turned in eighteen hundreds hour.

Speaker 1: All right, well we're going to get into it today,

but first let's head over to the newsroom. Okay, watching.

Speaker 2: Today, we had fifty.

Speaker 1: This week. Our news comes from Scotland, my people, But

is a food crime? Are you ready?

Speaker 2: That would probably be a crime I would do police.

Scotland police are saying that there are organized crime gangs

targeting at chip shops to steal their used cooking oale.

What yeah, So this does have to do with the

biofuel industry and a lot of like biodiesel is made

from cooking oil.

Speaker 1: Wouldn't they just give it to them? Well, they don't

want to pay for it. Why would they pay for it?

Are they going to throw it away? Well, they will

take it to recycle it. Okay, But I just.

Speaker 2: Feel like this could have all been solved with some

polite conversation like hello, we would like to make our

entire streets, but like fry.

Speaker 1: The recycling plants pay for the oilies. They're talking about

a restaurants could get about thirty p a leter. Oh wow, okay,

so the EP Yeah, so they're talking about how there

have been one hundred and seventy eight incidents of cooking

oil thefts reported to police between October and or between

April and October of last year. They tried to catch

the thieves but they were too slip. They're talking about

these thefts being in broad daylight while people are walking

around raisin. There's a huge industry for this. The article

from the BBC also says that on average, thefts of

used cooking oil cost the UK Treasury twenty five million

a year in lost duty. So there's like tax that

gets paid on the oil to the to the UK

treasure more.

Speaker 2: Money than I would have expected. It's still a very

funny crime though.

Speaker 1: Yeah. And they the police have also said that the

incidents that recorded last year totaled about twenty thousand pounds

in lost revenue to hearing businesses. That's so heavy, that's

but they are saying like, yeah, there tends to be

like an organized crime element, and so that's kind of

what they're looking for.

Speaker 2: I'm just imagining a mafia made up of like barefoot

hippies and it's making me really happy.

Speaker 1: Well, I'm also like, is this what's happening to the

mean Philadelphia?

Speaker 2: They're connected board like connected with like the red lines

they have.

Speaker 1: They have annual meetings where they share ideas and you know,

spitball some new options for like like like a summit.

Speaker 2: Hardcore like Philadelphia, like Italian gangsters, and then these like Scottish.

Speaker 1: Hippies like like party. It's like the food Crime Summit

to exchange ideas. If you listening and.

Speaker 2: Are part of the food, please give us because we

want to go and see what sticks.

Speaker 1: We want to attend. I love that. Ooh that was

catchy food something. So that's happening at Scotland. I want

to go. We're gonna move on to Netflix and kills. Okay,

this week we are talking about Oklahoma City bombing, American terror.

This was a This came out in April of twenty

twenty five. Okay, so it's a little older. But you know,

I get around to things when I get around to them. Okay,

I've heard that. Uh as you might have guessed. It's

a documentary about the nineteen ninety five bombing of the

Alfred P. Mirror Federal Billing Building in Oklahoma City and

talks about Timothy McVeigh and sort of his path to

committing this commit yeah, committing to planning these bombs, and

how he was sort of radicalized by the government's handling

of the Waco situation.

Speaker 2: Yeah, man, so many people got radicalized by Waco.

Speaker 1: Well, Waco was kind of it was fun, not just

because of the cult thing.

Speaker 2: But that is a lot of problems. Very interested in

all of that. That's all very fat.

Speaker 1: There's a lot of problems with how the government handled

Waco and what was happening. Not to say that what

was happening was great, Like it.

Speaker 2: Is one of those things where I see people on

line like take it to extremes, like, well, the the

government should have handled Waco differently.

Speaker 1: Therefore Waco was right.

Speaker 2: I'm like, no, no, no, no, you know what i mean,

the two things.

Speaker 1: You can hold two things at one yeah. Right.

Speaker 2: As an autistic like black and white thinking, sometimes you

gotta go great, yeah, just a little.

Speaker 1: I think there's definitely a way that could have been

handled that was less less on fire violent, yeah, and

less yeah, life taking.

Speaker 2: Yeah, you would think so, you would think that would

be what they would have done.

Speaker 1: But anyway, so it was. It was Waco. And they

talk about the Turner diaries as well, and it talks

they have like some prison interviews with McVeigh. I thought

it was done really well. Okay, I mean there's I'm

gonna be anst with you. There's like, now, let's say

about it. Because Okahoma City bombing has been covered many times,

I was.

Speaker 2: Gonna say, this isn't like there are new details in

the mar case. It's just kind of a rehashing.

Speaker 1: But they do have, like I said, they do have

these previously unreleased prison interviews with mcmay. They have some

interviews with people who were survivors of the bombing. And

if I'm thinking it was because it's been a little

bit since I've watched it, but I'm thinking it was

this one that had really interesting like when they were

trying to show you like the layouts of the buildings

and the way things happen, and the way they did

that like digitally with like three dfferent stuff is very good.

It's very helpful, Yeah, just to get a visualization of

what the fuck was going on, you know. So anyway,

very interesting on Netflix check out it's called Oklahoma City Bombing,

American Terror. This is that part of the show where

we say content may not be appropriate for all listeners.

This week we are talking about, well, mine is I

kind of fucked up? But it's not like I don't know,

I don't know. Not the worst thing. Mine's pretty After

last episode, Yeah, I feel like it's gonna be a

lot that was so heavy, like crazy light. Yeah we're

talking about today, Rachel, we.

Speaker 2: Are talking about unsolved cases. So this I have trouble.

Speaker 1: I don't know if you have a love hate relationship

with I really really do, I really do? I really do.

Speaker 2: Makes me so mad. I need to know everything. I

need to know all the details. So I can't like

sit down and watch like unsolved mysteries, specifically because after

three episodes, I'm like.

Speaker 1: Who did it? Tell me? Yeah? I need to know.

I need resolutions. You find it very interesting? I want

to do you just get mad that there isn't a resolution, right,

So I'm just pissing myself off this one. I knew

I wanted to cover this one, and I always have

a lot of trouble when it comes to our pod

classifying things like coming up with like what the topic is?

Speaker 2: You know what I mean, like like what do I

put this? So I do feel like this it's kind

of a weird way to classify this crime. So I

wonder like at the end, I want to be like, Okay,

what would you have classified this as?

Speaker 1: It's funny because I was just talking to a friend

of the show, Wanie about this, and I was like, well,

you know, we probably won't be able to do like

an unsolved mysteries topic until next year. Yeah, because you know,

we try not to repeat topics too often, try to

keep things, you know, switch things up for you guys.

And he's like, what do you mean, why wouldn't why

wouldn't you be able to It's like, well, we just

try to keep things varied. We want to cover a

variety of things. And I said, but that doesn't mean

that there isn't like an unsolved case that wouldn't land

under another topic umbrella. Yeah, so I shouldn't try say

that because I mean it's again like things a lot

of times fit into multiple category. Yeah. Sometimes it's easier

for me to just go real wide. Yes, well it

is unsolved. Yeah, a little peak behind the curtain on

how we kind of function the podcast. It's true, guys, No,

it's very true. Like you want to be able since

we do kind of go back and forth on like

picking topics, you wouldn't be able to pick something broad

enough that the other person will be able to find

something in.

Speaker 2: That, and we're like murder by a left handed man.

Speaker 1: And because there's always been I think like one time

where I was like, let's broaden it out.

Speaker 2: A little bit, and I'm not good at that, so

I was appreciate that. It's like, I don't know why,

It's just one of those things. It's like hard for

me to put things in the boxes.

Speaker 1: Yeah, probably because I'm because you don't want to be

in a box. Yeah, disorganized. I'm like you want to.

Speaker 2: You're just a liberated girl with hairy legs.

Speaker 1: No, I just don't know what's happening. I just like

wear them. Well, thank you. I loved that.

Speaker 2: Yeah, so I'll be interested to see after after this,

like how you would have classified because I always have

trouble with that. I'd love to pick your Okay, So

this case, like I said, is very near and dear

to my heart. I was already very familiar when I

kind of like re stumbled upon it, like looking for

a topic. I was like, oh yeah, I could definitely

talk about that. Very interesting. Okay, So if you've been

a listener for well like any amount of time, five minutes,

you would know that I am a very political person. Now,

don't worry, I'm not. I try not to go into

it too much because this is not a political podcast

and all are here to learn about crime, not listen

to me yell passionately about the Middle East and workers' rights.

But if we kind of did that last stuff, we

kind of did.

Speaker 1: I think I was very good. You were very you

were very good. You were very good.

Speaker 2: But that's not as close as we get. My tongue

is bleeding for me, biting it to so much.

Speaker 1: We had to take you to the hospital. Yeah, double

date day trip. We got lunch.

Speaker 2: If now, if you would like to see me yell

passionately about politics, you may summon me under a full moon.

I'll turn up in a cloud of smoke and tell

you that Ronald Reagan is the devil. Speaking of workers' rights,

this case is a landmark one that, in my very

sexy opinion, must be discussed when you're going over the

history of workers' rights in America.

Speaker 1: Okay, this is like.

Speaker 2: A bit like if you look up, like if you

take a class on it, he going to be in there.

Speaker 1: Okay, he's a big deal. Okay.

Speaker 2: Warning, if you like me, have a little like the

People United will never be defeated. Kind of heart beating

in your chest. This case is going to piss.

Speaker 1: You off, right, Okay, cool Vegan.

Speaker 2: So this is the story of the murder of Franklin Little.

So this is going back a little bit. We're going

cepi atoned to the eighteen seventies around.

Speaker 1: So he was.

Speaker 2: Born actually pretty close to us, in Fulton County, Illinois, Okay,

in either eighteen seventy seven or eighteen seventy eight. He

was born to uh doctor Walter and Elmira Hayes.

Speaker 1: Little Elmira.

Speaker 2: It's a very like eighteen hundreds name. I know, well,

I don't know it. Kind of sounds like fancy Elmira.

I guess a l m I r a.

Speaker 1: It's not Almira mob All fine, it might be Almira Almyra.

It could be same.

Speaker 2: We can't ask her because she's dead, fair fair you

know from eighteen hundred things Augusta of wind, of course,

so the vapus help outside.

Speaker 1: I have to six now, chol it down, please.

Speaker 2: I don't know nothing about birth and no babies. So

they lived in Illinois for a short time. His family.

His father was obviously a medical doctor, so he had

a practice, and he ended up moving away to Oklahoma,

which is where they would eventually become homesteaders. Okay, so

this was during there was a whole like Oklahoma thing,

this eighteen eighty nine Oklahoma land rush, where it was

pretty much like advertised as like the great beautiful, untamed Frontier.

Don't mind all the Native Americans who already lived here. Hey,

nobody lives here. It's yours for the taken. So all

of these pioneers were like out, I get like running

in front. So it was this big like civil issue

where it was people were trying to figure out like

how to claim this chunk of land and where the

land where it lies right, and like who are you

paying for that right? And like it was this whole

like annoying issue. So they were part of that and

were like we want some of that sweet sweet Oklahoma.

Sure land, Sure, so we're gonna go there. They now

Oklahoma is Oklahoma. So there was like a big drought

and stuff, so they his family suffered with that. So

it just doesn't seem to have been like a super

successful move. I'm not really sure why he was like

goodbye successful doctor's office.

Speaker 1: Hello, Oh now we don't have anything to drink. Yeah,

it's like it's like his singer from being a doctor.

Speaker 2: But if you come back, none of the doctors will

talk to you.

Speaker 1: Shuck.

Speaker 2: That's so sad, Like sitting alone in the hospital cafeteria

like all on scrubs.

Speaker 1: Yeah, no one will play with me by lunch by myself.

Speaker 2: So during the drought and like the family falling on

hard times, his father would end up passing away, and uh, Frank,

who at this time was probably about nineteen or twenty,

would follow his brother Walter, who was like, hey, you

know where I hear there's gold in them their hills California.

Speaker 1: Of course, and he was like, everybody right, there's a

river going around. No, what you don't say, it couldn't be.

Speaker 2: They'd like, it's the gold rush. So they rushed to

be miners in the gold rush.

Speaker 1: Okay, So he.

Speaker 2: They went to California. Frank ended up because his brother

ended up getting married. So I think he kind of

was like, all right, I'm third wheeling, I'm going to

go to Arizona to be a miner, and I'm just

gonna go there now. At the time, I mean, we

covered this not too long ago that was more recent

mining conditions.

Speaker 1: Oh yeah, no, terrible. They were even worse back then.

They're bad now war Yeah, the.

Speaker 2: Shit now they're just digging it in standards not at all.

Speaker 1: Safety standards, no inflatable safety, no hip hoounce house to

say it was Cobb, I love that. That's what I want.

Speaker 2: So Frank would go into this later, and I think

this is part of what drove him to sort of

become who he was, is witnessing I'm sure all of

these perilous, horrible conditions with no workers' rights in all

of these mines because he worked at like quite a

few through California and Arizona. So when he settled in Arizona,

being a minor, he would become an organizer for the

Western Federation of Miners. Okay, my dude's getting unionized. So

he's like, hey, I'm going to do this. And then

in nineteen oh five he joined the Industrial Workers of

the World, which is more union stuff. So it's clear

that workers' rights were on the forefront of his mind,

which is really cool because again back then, not that

they're always accepted now, which is bullshit, but like unions

were like very frowned upon, you know, why y'all complaining?

So what that you lost your leg? Go back to work? Right,

And everyone was like, hey, actually you should pay that guy.

Speaker 1: Yeah lost his leg. Yeah you know. Yeah. So this

was like a Now that's why I have a job. Correct.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: I I don't really talk about work on the podcast, right,

fair enough. I don't really want this connected to my employer, understandable,

but I will say the area of law that I

particularly work in as workers compensation.

Speaker 2: So they said thank you for your service. I love you.

One time I broke my nose at work, so thank

you for your sums. I got paid for that because

it was not my fault. Yeah, my spotters were So.

Speaker 1: This is I'm like, this is all. This is great.

It was like, this is my job.

Speaker 2: When I was thinking about this, I was like, she's

gonna like be so interested in this. This is a

good one.

Speaker 1: Yeah. I'm not gonna lie like I thought. Workers Conversation

is going to be a lot more boring than it is.

Speaker 2: It is very It's very interesting and hearing all of

the stories that like go into.

Speaker 1: It is the right amount of interesting. I don't need

my work life to be like that crazy excited.

Speaker 2: That's a good podcast title just the right about of

Interesting comes on after just Barely. That's the one where

I yell about political stuff. So tune in right after

this for whatever I just said I fired for So

Frank putting on his little union hat, became involved in

organizing not just miners, but also jobs like oil field workers.

He did a lot with like migrant workers, which again

was very frowned on at the time. Those people shouldn't

have rights. Again, not that we've gotten any better, but

that was a big deal that he was speaking out

for people who were not white, you know, and like

lumberjacks and stuff as well. So he was speaking out

for all of these people and.

Speaker 1: Trying my work in lumberjacks.

Speaker 2: Yes, yum, Bronnie. So what's kind of in interesting is

this sort of like for the people movement that he

was involved in would end up inspiring another similar movement

in the nineteen sixties in America. Hopefully everyone's familiar with

the freedom writers who were like during the Civil rights

movement in America. They were the people who were organizing

like all of these sit ins and all of these

protests and riding on their bus back and forth to

all of these things in the time of like Martin

Luther King.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 2: Yeah, they specifically cite him as a reference for inventing

essentially very passive and non violent ways to stir up

like interest, passive resistance tactics.

Speaker 1: That's what it's called.

Speaker 2: Okay, which I'm a fan of violence, but you know,

there's always a place for you got.

Speaker 1: To start somewhere. Yeah, I guess you can't immediately be

like kill everyone.

Speaker 2: Oh, I'll have to change my philosophy guillotine immediately. So

he was heavily involved with these like sort of lumber

companies and would often go to these big like lumber

yards and like do like these passionate He was noted

as such a passionate speaker, being like, hey, if you

get crushed by alog, they should do something about that.

And everyone was like what, yeah, that's crazy, wild ideas, right,

very crazy.

Speaker 1: And it was even more blatant.

Speaker 2: Back then that these like like in particular these like

lumber sharks as they were called, like kind of like

oil bearing but for lumber would specifically like trick workers yeah,

like and be like yeah, I'll pay you and then

not pay you, and like they were being very like sneaky, right,

and terrible.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 2: So that was all like kind of in Montana. That

was kind of like the lumberyard City Central, and then

he went all the way to Spokane, Washington, where he

would be arrested because he he was quote sentenced to

thirty days in prison for reading the Declaration of Independence.

Was reading it aloud to the workers and they were like, hey, oh.

Speaker 1: You can't do that. So he just walked in and

was like yeah.

Speaker 2: He was like, hey, here's the proof that you actually

don't have to interesting have to do these things.

Speaker 1: Okay.

Speaker 2: So he and they were like they had the what

is it called the chain gang? Okay, they were like, yeah, yeah,

we have this like cool thing where you smash racks

and he's like, no, I'm actually not doing that.

Speaker 1: Oh I literally refused.

Speaker 2: He probably like did the sit in thing and was

like I'm just sitting down, yeah, louck you Yeah. So

he ended up having to sit in jail, and he

talked often about how like it was not insulated at all.

It was like the middle it was like I think December,

so it was like the middle of winters or he

was just like freezing his little ass up.

Speaker 1: He's better than crushing racks. Yeah, I'm not doing that shit.

Speaker 2: Like they really thought they were going to get this

this labor union to do labor for them. For me,

he was like, that's actually against my entire character.

Speaker 1: Sucked my ass. I don't stand for this fact. I

don't stand. I sit.

Speaker 2: So I'm sitting sitting, good damn it, sitting on this rack.

So what's kind of cool is remember his brother who

he had went to California with originally and he had

gotten married and stayed in California. Yeah, his brother also

became a labor organizer, and his sister in law Emma Harper.

So his brother was named Walter Little and his sister

in law was Emma Harper. Yeah, they became pivotal in

the labor movement as well, which I think is really

really cool, all in the family.

Speaker 1: So at this.

Speaker 2: Point, kind of like after he went to prison or

around the same time, he would travel to and from

like California, Washington, uh into like Wyoming and Montana. So

he was like kind of like going all over the place.

And when he would go to California, he would be

involved with his brother and sister in law who were

kind of like in the California pocket. You know, it

was like the connect right, yeah, okay, right, So in Fresno,

him and several hundred workers were arrested because he had

like took them to the streets, the brother or the

Frank I mean Frank, yes, Frank, Frank Pak I think

his brother was also there. It was probably all but

Frank was like counting on this like big giant. He

wanted it to be a lot bigger than it had been.

Like several hundred I think is a wonderful feet. But

he had been counting on like other people to come

and they ended up not showing up and he got arrested,

and you would think that would have burdened his spirit,

but he was like, I'm doing it again. So he

went directly to the migrant workers and was like, hey,

you're underrepresented. You guys are just picking fruit for no money.

Would you like to organize with me? And they said okay.

So this was a huge, huge, so pretty much eywhere

he was going, he was shaking it up, right, and

he was always getting arrested. It was always only for

like thirty days. Because he was very very smart in

the passive resistance things that he would do. It's like

you're gonna arrest me for sitting down. You're gonna arrest

me for being in the road, Like what you're gonna

give me for jaywalking? Okay, I'll be out in a week.

I don't really care. So it was very that, but

luckily he had this big network of people who would

like bail him out.

Speaker 1: Yeah, right, of course.

Speaker 2: So he came back even to like Peoria, which is

a big labor place at the time, Kansas City, Missouri,

Web City, web City, Missouri. All day. So back to

the fruit workers. Sorry, this one's exciting me. So I'm like,

can you give me you I'm waiting to see where

you're going with this. That's where I'm don't worry. We're

about to be at the crime. Okay, I'm going into

like his life because he's a cute.

Speaker 1: I've hit the point where I'm like, okay, where is

she going with there's going to be a crime, will

be crying. Okay.

Speaker 2: So I said, this is like a little footnote when

I was talking about the migrant workers. His tactics, just

like they were later employed by the Freedom Writers would

be employed by Caesar Chavas. Okay, so who also was

like that day, what was up which is pretty cool.

So he has this like big, long lasting legacy. Sure,

So in nineteen thirteen, this is one of those things

where like, I feel like this tiny story could be

a movie. It's always funny to read things in history

where it's like what and they just kind of move on.

Speaker 1: This is crazy.

Speaker 2: So he along with some of his fellow industrial workers

of the world, like union organizer buddies James P. Cannon,

they went to Minnesota.

Speaker 1: They went to.

Speaker 2: Duluth to help the or doc workers who were working

for the Great Nordern Railway. It was pretty much for

what you would expect, very dangerous working conditions. So they

were there and some of the big railway barons were there, right,

and they're.

Speaker 1: Like, no, fuck you.

Speaker 2: In the strike, he was kidnapped, held at gunpoint outside

of the city. They were like stop doing the parade

or we'll kill this guy. And it says dramatically rescued

by union supporters, I like, go into that more, please,

I would like to hear all of it.

Speaker 1: That's it nice. But like he was fine and.

Speaker 2: Nobody died and they figured it out and it was fine.

But I was like, this guy is living this like

crazy life.

Speaker 1: Wow. I love him. That's insane.

Speaker 2: After that, probably because they felt bad that he had

a gun pulled on him. That he was elected to

the General Board of the Industrial Workers of the World. Okay,

so they're like, you are doing super super good. He

was continuing to organize shit. Another crazy thing that happened

to him like two years later is he went to Superior,

Wisconsin where he was helping these like doc workers okay,

where he was again kidnapped. They beat him and had

a mind hanging where they like pretended to hang him

in the town square.

Speaker 1: Dude, what the fuck y? Yeah, that was so inappropriate, right, Like,

so I'm like, what is that?

Speaker 2: So like all smart people, uh, Little was a strong

opponent of capitalism, which you know, as you would be

after viewing all of these like rich ceo assholes who

were exploiting their workers. He was super anti capitalistic. He

was super anti World War One, which was brewing at

the time. He was famous enough that like the General

Treasurer at the time, who was named William Haywood, were

speaking out and being like this guy is a dangerous

agitator that he would They were beginning to label him

on like a government status as he is this day,

which he had never hurt anybody. Yeah, you know, he's

the one who's getting beat to shit, fake hanged and

like tarred and feathered in the But.

Speaker 1: He's causing a ruck. He's he's causing a rucks.

Speaker 2: Right, and yeah, this was like a whole thing, whole

stupid thing. Yeah, this was a big.

Speaker 1: Thing with him.

Speaker 2: Like not only was he for the workers, but a

big part of his activism was anti war, which at

the time was very very very unpopular.

Speaker 1: So this was.

Speaker 2: Around like like nineteen seventeen, So the war was she

was a bruin, you know, and speaking out against it

was seen as like super super Unamerican, which he was

already being labeled like this was like pre red scare,

like this crazy communists, even though they weren't using that

term in that way yet. So he was he was

becoming unpopular, especially when he made statements like quote calling

soldiers in who were like serving overseas, quote Uncle Sam's

scabs in uniform.

Speaker 1: Okay, Yeah, he wasn't really uh oh.

Speaker 2: Boy, endearing himself to to anyone.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 2: So now we are getting to the crime. Okay, because

he's popular with the workers, everyone who worked with him

and knew him, like in that business, was like, this

guy is great. He was very good at what he did,

and he was often described as kind and even gentle.

H But on a government level, on a law enforcement level,

they did not like this guy. All of these CEOs

were like, you'll fuck this dude. Okay, I'm ready. So

that's kind of the perspective.

Speaker 1: Okay.

Speaker 2: So in nineteen seventeen, on August first, at a boarding

house Nora Burns Steel Block boarding house.

Speaker 1: Okay, very exciting.

Speaker 2: This is where Frank was staying. I think he was

on his way to like another like a protest, yeah something,

you know, doing his Frank stuff.

Speaker 1: Sure, six masked men.

Speaker 2: Broke in the door, oh god, in the night. Initially

they kicked in the wrong door because they're stupid, okay,

and Nora Byrne, who was there, was like, excuse me,

we actually don't kick indoors here.

Speaker 1: That's rude. Why would you do that? Please don't be rid?

Speaker 2: Yeah, fix that right now. And they were like no, no, no,

it's fine, we're police. And she was like, I disagree,

but they like overpowered her. Went up to Frank's room

beat him up. He was in his undies, beat the

shit out of him and abducted him, bundled him into

a car, which sped off into the night. Okay, So

to Frank, he's like, well, I've been kidnapped before. Yeah,

you know, so I feel like maybe at this point,

he was like, maybe it's gonna be okay, Right, you know,

they're crazy, they do stuff like that. But this one

was different, much different, much more graphic. This this is

the part of the show where this is gross. So sorry,

I'm gonna talk about gross stuff.

Speaker 1: Okay.

Speaker 2: So, not only did they rough him up, they have

him in the car, right, So he's like, Okay, we're

gonna go to a location and they're gonna, you know,

I don't know, hold me for ransom or some shit.

They tied him to the car bumper.

Speaker 1: Oh god.

Speaker 2: And so the streets back then, like in this area

were really just granite blocks. They didn't really use like filler.

So he was screw They drove him behind the car,

drug him behind the car, I'm sorry, and scraped him.

Post Mortem photos showed that this was so severe on

his body that his kneecaps had been shredded off.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 2: Yeah, there was quite a lot of other like that.

They know for sure happened because they were able to

like locate like the rope and you know, everything like that.

But there was other sort of unspecified torture. When they

got him, it was said he looked like a unrecognizable

He was then taken to at some point, he was

taken to the edge of town near the Milwaukee Bridge,

and he was hanged from a what's called a railroad trestle. Yeah,

really tall things. So when they found him the next day,

someone it's not clear, I think someone just like reported

like there's a body over there. When they took him in,

the coroner was like, well, the cause of death was

asphyxiation from the hanging, but he had also gotten a

fractured skull that they said was almost certainly from like

a gun butt.

Speaker 1: Popped in the back of the head. God.

Speaker 2: Also, it's disgusting, you're torturing this guy for what, like all,

he is advocating for his human rights, like you guys

are demons. Disgusting, Also pretty ominous. They found a note

pinned to his clothing that said first and last warning.

Speaker 1: Wow. It also had.

Speaker 2: This is getting a little what is it national treasure?

Speaker 1: National treasure.

Speaker 2: It also included a series of numbers, the numbers three

dash seven dash seventy seven. Okay, so this was a

sign of the Vigilantes, which were a union thing active

in that area, and it also had like the initials

of other union leaders kind of being like, we're coming

for you next.

Speaker 1: Jesus, we know who.

Speaker 2: You are, we know your initials were coming for you next,

and they did say so. Another like Workers Industry, which

was the Metal mind Workers, said that they received the

company received threats being like We're gonna come and hang

people who had been on the list, yeah, you know,

other union leaders. Sure, So at this point everyone was

like petrified. Now, unfortunately, who do you think was apprehended?

Speaker 1: No one?

Speaker 2: Yeah, my guess would be not a single person, no one? Yeah, yeah,

no one, yeah, no one.

Speaker 1: Great.

Speaker 2: They initially approached there was an author, so this is

kind of interesting. So this guy was Dashiel Hammett. So

he was working as like a strikebreaker for.

Speaker 1: Pinkerton's Expective Agents, okay.

Speaker 2: And allegedly had received an author to assassinate Frank Little. Okay,

so he was but he was like, I didn't do that.

He didn't do that, but he was like, obviously people

were trying they were asking around to kill him. He

goes through the quote. Through the years, he was to

repeat that bribe offer so many times that I came

to believe it was kind of a key to his life.

He had given a man the right to think he

would commit murder.

Speaker 1: Okay, very spooky.

Speaker 2: So he was getting all these like letters and stuff

being like five thousand bones, you kill that guy, and he.

Speaker 1: Was like no, yaht them a stripe prayer.

Speaker 2: So they were like, okay, this obviously could have been

like a great number, right right. So someone that they

believe was involved was a career criminal by the name.

Speaker 1: Of Billy Oates.

Speaker 2: Okay, so he was like kind of known and you're

gonna be like, oh, you know, what's what's one? Uh

like outlaws description based on another o contraire. The reason

that they thought it was Billy Oates is because he

had a hook for a hand and they found like

a hooky poke mark on his on the back of

his head that looked like they were like, oh, that

probably came from his hook hand, which I'm like, hello,

how do you determine that? But also very fascinating man

with a hook.

Speaker 1: Oh it's unfortunate, could be a nice guy. Yeah, right, right, right,

he probably didn't do that. Might be a nice guy.

He just happens to have a hook for a hand.

Jesus guy.

Speaker 2: He called him a notorious hired thug. Okay, so I

think that might be, but like I don't know who's

to say. Yeah, so they there was there been like

over the years, there've obviously been theories. I think we

as adults can be like, oh, it was probably uh

like the rich people who didn't.

Speaker 1: Like him, right in some way. Yeah, And so.

Speaker 2: One of those people was the chief of detectives at

the time of the murder.

Speaker 1: His name is Ed Morrissey.

Speaker 2: He had taken a twenty day leave of absence the

day after the killing, and he never took time suspicious.

So they were like, that's some weird timing, like very

very weird. And so the so they had had I

don't really understand this. Maybe maybe you will, but it

seems old timy. In nineteen eighteen, after his murder, the

Industrial Workers of the World had a conspiracy trial in Chicago.

So it's like, I don't think they were I think

they were more just like talking about the details of

the case rather than trying to like prosecute anyone in particular. Okay,

you know what I mean, I don't know what a

conspiracy trial is. I thought that was weird.

Speaker 1: Normally, I mean normally when you're talking about conspiracy, it's

like organizations getting together to that makes sense, you know,

something in the details to know to do something illegal.

So were they talking about conspiracy charges? Was it a

conspiracy trial?

Speaker 2: That's what they said, conspiracy trial?

Speaker 1: Who was being charged?

Speaker 2: So they brought in the chief of police at Morrissey

because it was noted at the trial that he had

scratches all over his face.

Speaker 1: But he was saying he didn't know. Yeah, okay, so

he's like, that's like conspiracy to cut I see. So

they're alleging that the police officer is conspiring with whoever

perpetrated the crime to cover up. Yeah, what is happening?

But nothing came of it. That okay, that was it.

But like they there.

Speaker 2: Was enough evidence they had found I mean, this was

the early nineteen hundreds, but they had found skin under

Frank's fingernails, which and this guy had scratches on his face, right,

he was probably like I just have a canops, I

just have like a it's just my crazy wife, my

darn bolli. There was also another man, Peter Prilia, who

was They think that he was also involved. He was

another one of these guys. He was a motorcycle officer

and him and this other ed Morrissey, this other police

officer had both worked for the same company called Anaconda,

which had big, major beef with Frank Little and Oranizer.

So it's like they worked for the same company, right,

you know. Yeah, but nothing ever came of it.

Speaker 1: Of course.

Speaker 2: Frank Little's funeral procession initially was supposed to be just

sort of like a low key thing, you know, his

friends and family laying.

Speaker 1: Him to rest.

Speaker 2: It gathered an estimated ten thousand workers. Wow, who all

came out to see it is still the largest in Butte,

Montana history.

Speaker 1: Wow. He was buried.

Speaker 2: In Butte's Mountain View Cemetery. Listen to how punk this

is his Like?

Speaker 1: What is it?

Speaker 2: The like inscription on his headstone headstone thank you? I

was like tomb tomb. I'm like no headstone reads quote

slain by capitalist interests for organizing and inspiring his fellow men.

Speaker 1: I love that? Is it? Love that great? Yeah? So great? Oh.

Speaker 2: The founding member of the Industrial Workers of the World.

Bill Haywood, after his death, had this to say. He

wrote an editorial on the same day. He said, quote,

the tragic, brutal death of Frank Little will unite the

working forces of this country against the masters of bread.

He has not died in vain, and with his blood

will be written the abolition of the wage system. Not punk, Yeah,

that's very punk. For a little while, there was like

a rallying cry because obviously, even though he was like

tiptop organizer, the IWW lives on. They continue to do

things like this, and so they would shout we never forget.

That was like a big rallying cry for a long time.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 2: So despite his short life, he was able to inspire.

I think it's so crazy that like Caesar Chavaz and

the Freedom writers were like that guy like inadvertently taught

us how to do this. Like I wonder how like

the landscape of America would look, yeah without his influence,

you know, interesting, like putting himself in danger all the

time to be so selfless. Yeah, So I've always been

really interested in that, and that is the sadly unsolved.

Speaker 1: We all know who did it. Murder of frank little.

So you want to know what I would have classified

that as? I do. Okay, So there's a couple of

ways you could have gone. You could have done labor disputes.

I was wondering, although that is on the more narrow side. Yeah,

you could do a check and see what's out there. Right,

you could have done eighteen hundreds murder? Yeah done? Where

did it take place? Montana? Yeah, you could have done

Montana murder. That I think we just did that not

that long ago. You could have done That's a good question.

You see, it's hard. A lot of trouble with that.

Speaker 2: Yeah, it probably should have gone with labor disputes.

Speaker 1: That's fine. Yeah, that's fine. Yeah, that was very interesting. Thanks.

I thought so too. All Right, So I am going

to look at something that's more traditional insult, the kind

of weird side. I love it, channge a little bit

more recent. Nice, And we're gonna look at the case

of Gareth Williams. Williams, who originally hailed from Valley Anglesey, Wales,

was a very smart guy, like like crazy smart, like

a genius. He was while he was still in secondary school.

Williams attended Bangor University part time. Eventually earning a first

class degree when he was seventeen. Wow. Following that, Williams

achieved a PhD from the University of Manchester to Day,

and he continued on to a post grad degree but

ended up dropping out after he failed a final exam.

But it's fine because he's fine, like is very smart.

Like it's not like he's got a fucking PhD. So yeah. Instead,

Williams decided to get into government work and got a

job with the GCHQ in two thousand and one. The

g well, I do not the Government Communication Headquarters, which

is essentially the equivalent to our NSA. Okay, it's kind

of the it's like the British version. Okay, that that

makes sense. It also houses like some of the more

secret organizations in the government. Spooky. So Williams was described

as someone who really enjoyed cycling but was incredibly private.

There are some details about williams living situation that were

admittedly confusing. I think I got it figure it out

because he so he was working for GHQ, okay, and

he was sent on a secondment, which is like this

like loaning out of an employee to another agency to

do work for a certain amount of time, so like

a secondary assignment, okay, And so he was out on

the second mint to I six, which I'm sure you've

heard of. It's also called the Secret Intelligence Service or SIS.

It's again it's like one of these very secret organizations.

A lot of times you hear about six with like

spine it's like their FBI. I feel like it's more

like a CIA really type. It's a little bit of both.

I think honestly they did the secret stuff. They have spices, yes,

I mean it's like the the nssay having departments centerneath

it right right. So anyway, so he gets sent on

assignment in London. So his regular residence where he was at,

where the GHQ was, where he was working, he had

this flat that he had been in for like ten

some odd years, and then he was living in London

for a year while he was working for SIS basically Okay.

So after some of his colleagues became concerned when they

hadn't heard from him in a few days, he was

set to go back to GHU like a few days

after this, police were called to do a welfare check

to his residence in London. On August twenty third, twenty ten. However,

they would never have guessed what they found inside what

is it? Upon search of his residence, authorities discovered William's

remains in his bathtub in a red sports bag that

had been padlocked shut from the outside. What. Along with

his remains inside the bag, they also found the keys

to the padlock inside the bag with his remains.

Speaker 2: What.

Speaker 1: That's uki spooky, very fucking weird, right? What? Yeah? So

obviously they declared the subcrime scene, but the investigation that

followed revealed a ton of information, most of which was

surprising and confusing to the Williams, to Williams family and

like the general public. It's like, how does all of

this fit together? Right?

Speaker 2: I know?

Speaker 1: A true mystery? I guess No, we're not. This Your

episode is unsolved?

Speaker 3: Yeah?

Speaker 1: Did you forget? Yeah?

Speaker 2: Did you forget?

Speaker 1: I'm thinking about lunch. Sorry, I'm let me spoil it

for you. Okay. So, first, there were inconclusive fragments of

DNA from at least two other people on the bag. Really, however,

there weren't any signs of force entry or DNA in

the rest of the flat that would point to a

third party involvement.

Speaker 2: What.

Speaker 1: Scotland Yard also didn't find any of William's fingerprints on

the rim of the bath or on the padlock, which

would point to some sort of like third party involvement.

Oh right, And the rim is important because if you're

thinking he's getting into a bag in the tub, have

to grab the to like, yeah, grab the side to

like lower himself into the bathtub. Unless you're very skilled

and have tons of bats, No way, you know, I

couldn't do that for sure. Neither. And in addition to

all of this, the keys that were found for the

padlock inside the bag were actually found underneath William's body. Yeah,

somebody put him in there. I feel maybe maybe that's

maybe maybe how do you want the padlock? He's skill

nor he was working for six for a little bit

like whatever. I think that's yeah. So clearly there was

a ship ton to investigate here. There was a lot

of questions to be answered, and autopsy revealed that an

estimated date of death was approximately one week before his

body was discovered. Okay, The coroner revealed she hadn't found

any injuries that would have indicated a struggle. They also

didn't find any indication that he had been intoxicated or

under the influence of common recreational drugs. Right, So it's

not like he took too much cocaine or you know,

little too much weed, had too many shrooms, whatever happens

to be, right. The heat was on in the flat

and it was summer, and so when they arrived they

think that it sort of sped up the decomposition process. Yep,

a little bit. There were some interesting details about the

work that he did for some of the UK's top

and most secret government agencies. This is from the Guardian. Quote.

A few details were made public about Gareth Williams's work,

except that he designed practical applications for emerging tech achnologies

and was deemed low risk. Although he had passed the

course to become fully deployable six months before his death,

he was only operational in the UK and not overseas.

He had contact with two undercover agents, but according to SIS,

did not increase his risk. A witness identified only as

SISF said an internal review had confirmed quote that there

was no evidence of any threat to Gareth and we

concluded there was no reason to think that his death

was anything to do with his work. End quote. Yeah, right,

They're like nothing to see here, right, nothing to do

with us, surely, of course not. The Guardian goes on

to say, quote William had carried out a small number

of searches on the SIS database that were unauthorized. Could

have exposed him to pressure from malign persons unknown, but

it was thought unlikely by his SIS bosses. His most

recent assignment had been a hackers conference in Las Vegas

known to been attended by criminal hackers, from which he

returned on August eleventh, twenty ten. Which I know which

conferences are talking about. I forget what it's called, but

I've heard about it before, okay, And there are some

not so great hackers that there's a lot of good ones, yeah,

you know, like the white hat hackers that are helpful.

People love that. But there's there's definitely some criminal for

that shit anyway. So he had been sent to that.

It seems to me that they are again very much like, yeah,

he might have done some more sensitive stuff for us,

but it wasn't anything that was going to put him

in risk, certainly not.

Speaker 2: Yeah, according to them, for sure, yeah right right right.

They're like, we looked at it and we think that

we didn't do anything wrong. Yeah, So it's Okay, now,

so this is all happening. That's some interesting details started

to emerge about his private life and the investigators. Investigators

thought that it might be related. I'm going to say

the top. We always say this, We're never here to

yuck anyone's yum.

Speaker 1: Nope. Okay, so that's not the point of this, but

it was part of their investigation. So it's worth mentioning

a little bit be juicy. Again from the Guardian quote,

William's wardrobe included twenty thou pounds of high end women's

clothing size small to medium and twenty six pairs of

women's shoes size six to six and a half. Female

wigs and makeup were also found. He access He had

accessed bondage websites. There was video footage on one phone

of him posing naked apart from leather boots.

Speaker 2: So he was killed by spies and they put that

stuff in his apartment.

Speaker 1: I mean they do that. It's also possible that he

was boring his sexuality. Yeah, and it has nothing to

do with this.

Speaker 2: It could be but whenever, you know, and this is

like me and my tinfoil hat, right, but it does

seem whenever it's like, hey, there was someone who died

and people are going to start looking into it. They're like,

it was his crazy sexual lifestyle. Yes, those devy and homosexuals.

Yeah right, it's like very coincidental. Like literally, I was like,

they're going to plant stuff. Yeah, I all of a sudden,

he's going to be into BDSM or something.

Speaker 1: Don't think this was a plant because they go on

later to talk about him regularly attending drag shows and

that he could have been part of his work. I

could have or he could just be and he could.

He definitely could. It just seems like tend to lay

out the same way to me. But also he was

like a very private guy, you know what I'm saying.

It's not like right, so and maybe he was, but

like there was also a story from the land lady

of his flat, where he had been for many years

that she and her husband heard Williams shouting for help,

and when they ran to see what was happening, they

found Williams with his hand hands tied to his back posts.

He claimed that he was seeing if he could escape,

but the landlords always thought it was sexual sexually related.

Now again to this point, there is also a timeline

that talks about him taking these tes for some of

you know, they were talking about full deployment, and he

had actually been deployed yet, so some of these tests,

and these were some things that were in those tests,

like knots in escaping confinement and that kind of thing.

So right, it could be that maybe he was in

the bondage, which fine, I.

Speaker 2: Find it, but I like that an I six agent

would do that without like a knife nearby.

Speaker 1: Well, he wasn't an MI six agent. He worked for

g h Q.

Speaker 2: I mean we think he wasn't an MI six agent. Well,

I think he almost certainly was.

Speaker 1: If he was, he wasn't fully deployable.

Speaker 2: That's what they say. I don't believe the same. I

think he saw some shit he should have seen.

Speaker 1: Of course, the investigation looked into all of this, saying

that the bondage websites had been visited, but it was sporadic, Okay,

it was isolated incidents. It wasn't like, you know, every

Thursday night, he's like looking at the bond and just

sort of every so often. Okay, that makes sense, and

they didn't think it was related. Okay, Okay, moving past

all understanding, that is very interesting it's worth talking about

a little bit because it was this idea of like,

well maybe this was like a bondage thing gone wrong.

Speaker 2: Or like he got involved with the wrong people right

right now.

Speaker 1: Obviously, there was also this huge question about how did

he get into the bag? I wonder that myself. Yeah. Again,

it's from the Guardian quote. Two experts tried and failed

a total a total of four hundred times to lock

the holdall from the inside. One would not rule it out.

There are people who can do amazing things and mister

Williams may have been one of those persons. And one

expert William McKay.

Speaker 2: Oh yeah, that's what you said earlier, like hey, maybe

he was just like real good at that.

Speaker 3: Which listen, I appreciate people wanting to suspend their disbelief,

but I feel like you're supposed to be an expert,

and if you try four hundred times and you can't

do it, you're I get there's maybe I'm just not

good at it.

Speaker 2: Yeah, nope, come on, nope, you call yourself next. Also,

I just don't believe, like, okay, I understand that, like

maybe people think that like he was trying to do

one of his like Houdini tests to pass this test.

Speaker 1: Where it's like, how do you get out of a bag? Right?

Speaker 2: Like, Oh, I'm trying to lock it and then he suffocates.

It's a canvas bag. Just rip it. He was dead

when he got in there. I feel you know what

I mean? Those are not that strong. I broke mine

over the weekend.

Speaker 1: Yeah, you have children.

Speaker 2: No, I broke it by stepping on it.

Speaker 1: Oh.

Speaker 2: I like, I like was holding it and I stepped

on it and I ripped the.

Speaker 1: Strap and it was very easy to do it.

Speaker 2: I feel like kids can break anything. They sure can that,

even the stuff that we cannot. Oh, they show girl,

I'll find a way to break it. Oh, they sure can.

You know when people say child around right, yeah, he

just everyone needs children. You know when people say I

come from a broken home, I do, because as they

break everything in my home, like me and my husband

was literally broken everywhere. Me and my husband are married

and happy, but all of our things are destroyed.

Speaker 1: But we're happy. Oh god, I'm They're cute. So the

experts were like, it probably wasn't him right, good name,

but probably not right right right? Uh. The lack of

fingerprints and DNA on the rim of the tub, where

one would suspect Williams would have stated himself to get

into the bag in the tub was kind of an issue.

Speaker 2: Definitely, but again in detail.

Speaker 1: Here experts sort of contradicted each other, with one saying

that he would have been unconscious or dead before being

placed into the bag, while the other said it would

have been difficult to place a floppy, newly dead body

in the bag in the neat and tidy position that

it was in when he was found. And I don't

know specifically what his positioning was, but it wasn't like

he was just stuffed into a fucking bag. It was like,

you know, he might have been in a fetal poser,

but like a more posed something that you would either

have to get into yourself or have somebody place you

in that way specifically, because otherwise it's just like shoveshow chove. Yeah,

So you had one guy who was like, yeah, I know,

like definitely was dead or or unconscious unconscious before he

got in and went being like he's too floppy to

do that. I think that's dumb.

Speaker 2: Which one, What do you mean he's too floppy?

Speaker 1: He's too floppy? You don't get right away.

Speaker 2: Yeah, but so what what if you have like two

guys or something, you know, but that also means that

a third party would need to have been present. I

think they probably they don't have any evidence the third party.

Well I know they they're saying that they don't, but

I just I feel like they probably put him in

the bag, like this was like a secondary location, and

then they they locked and they put in the bathtub

and then they left. Yeah, you know, yeah, I think

that kind of makes sense, Like, especially if you wouldn't

want to like have evidence of the location, you do

it somewhere else. Yeah, but that's just what I'm picturing.

Speaker 1: Then, another pathologist said that he would have died from

CO two taxicity two to three minutes after being put

in the bag if he were alive. Well, right, so

she was like probably alive when he got put in

the bag. The only real leads authorities seemed to have

was a photo of two people that they were looking

for who had entered the communal entrance of his home

in June or July of twenty ten. Interesting, but there's

a lot of people who have right, absolutely, because I

get the idea that this was kind of like a room.

It wasn't like a full fly was yeah.

Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, yeah, lots of people coming and going

that'd behind that determined.

Speaker 1: Yeah. So a coroner's inquest was called in March twenty twelve,

where an attorney for the family in that there was

a second person present either at the time of William's

death or immediately after that had broken in and stolen

some items, but again there wasn't any evidence to support

like a force entry. There was a piece of valid

DNA that they were able to pull off of William's Handoo. Yeah,

but good one. It turns out it belonged to one

of the forensic scientists that had been examining his body.

Get the fuck out of here. They had also been

looking for this like Mediterranean couple that they had linked

by DNA to this murder, but that was also an

error thanks to an incorrect data entry. Oh and the

forensic company like profusely apologized to the family. They're like,

so sorry for all of our fuck ups. It's on us.

There's actually no DNA and because it was like an

errant number got entered into this system that made them

start looking for this Mediterranean family. Crazy, very crazy.

Speaker 2: Uh.

Speaker 1: The forensic cut like I said, the forensic company apologized

the evidence of the experts trying to lock themselves in

the bag, as well as like the contradicting evidence of

like whether he was alive or not, that was all

presented at the inquests. I learned something new about coroner's

inquists in the UK, because we do have them here.

I just don't feel like you hear about them as

freely much. And if they are, it's not like as

public A think like they're very public in the UK.

Oh interesting, So apparently one of the things that they

can do is deliver a narrative verdict, which is more

of this like free form factual statement that doesn't necessarily

attribute the death to a single person or like a

single individual, because a coroner's inquest is essentially an investigation

to determine cause of death, right and a tribute, which

they didn't really find anything on him, right, and so

instead she delivered this narrative inquest that didn't really like

point at one person. Okay, but she found that William's

death was quote unnatural and likely to have been criminally meditated,

although she said it was likely that he was unlawfully killed,

that there was insufficient evidence to deliver a verdict of

unlawful killing. Okay. The coroner also said that a third

party had placed the bag with William's body in the

bathtub and locked the bag, and that he likely died

shortly after due to CO two poisoning or another short

acting poison That's what I'm thinking. The coroner also admonished

the SIS for not reporting Williams missing for seven days. Yes,

fucking employer. She also voiced disapproval of the Metropolitan Police's

counter Terrorism Command for not informing investigators of evidence found

in his SIS office and not getting statements from SIS officers. Interesting. Yeah,

she was like what the fuck like that? That was

a valid line of inquiry, Like why didn't you follow

it or pressure it, push it as hard? And I'm

assuming it's because the SIS is probably pushing back. But

she was like, yeah, that's bullshit. That's needed her for

calling investigate that when judges are good. So she's a corner. Oh,

I love her. She chooses to have. After the coroner

released her findings, the Metro Police reopened an investigation that

would span another year, allowing them to speak at length

with I six officers. Now. Unfortunately, it did not produce

any new evidence or leads, and the most probable scenario

was Williams died after he lacked himself in the bag.

That's what the second investigation said. Bullshit, nothing else new

really emerged until you were gonna love this.

Speaker 2: Oh.

Speaker 1: Former ca AGB agent Boris Carpachkov defected in twenty fifteen.

Uh huh okay. He claimed that Williams was killed by

the SVR, which is what the KGB used to be.

I mean that used to be called the KGB, but

they changed the name basically to the SVR. He said

that Russia had attempted to blackmail Williams into becoming a

double agent with like they're like, we know about your exploits,

we know about all of these things. But in response,

he said that he knew the identity of a Russian

spy inside the GHU and he had to be exterminated

using an untraceable poison delivered by ear, which I feel

like is not the first time I've heard of that,

specifically in relation to Russia and the AGE and the

SRV and them dealing with people very very well funded

by medical researches, So like the idea that, like, I

feel like some people are like, well, how could it

be like untraceable, like they you would be surprised they've

done it more than once. Yep. I'm also pretty sure

that North Korea has done that well on more than

one occasion, and they are kind of in bed with Russia.

Speaker 2: I was gonna say that yeah yeah, and like try

this chemical and they're like okay.

Speaker 1: I see yeah. So yeah. So he showed up and

was like yo, as a former KGB, like you know, wow, yeah.

And part of the reason that he thinks this is

had I guess he was like living in the same

area as Williams at the time, okay that this was happening,

and he had just fled to the UK, so he

was kind of like watching his back, really worried somebody

was gonna be after him. And he saw what he

believed to be like trucks containing Russian you know whoever

the people that would be after him, and he assumed

they were there for him, but he never had any

like idea interaction or altercation with them. And since Williams

was in the same area and supposedly had this information

about a Russian spy, like that would have been something

that they felt like they quote unquote needed to take

care of right, that's what he was alleging. Interesting, it

does not appear that authorities have really taken these allegations seriously.

They have kind of said, like, we don't he was

not high enough in the sis to really have a

suspect that like a foreign government agency would need to

take action against him. It's not like he was some

he was more. No, he was kind of described as

this more of like a codebreaker type of person. Yeah,

which again it's not like he is, you know, traveling

internationally and like doing whatever. He's doing this all from

his home country, right, But you know, at the same time,

it's like use something to like cross the wrong people.

And he was fucking smart.

Speaker 3: I know.

Speaker 1: There, I could see why somebody like him would get

to be well and yeah, and could be like a prime.

Speaker 2: Target four somebody like Russia to be like he has

this information and stuff. Yeah, and we we don't know,

Like I'm not. I mean I am, but I'm not.

This is just the information that they've released, right. You know,

maybe he was coded to go internationally and if he

was involved in espionage. Not that I'm defending them, but

it kind of makes sense. For them not to tell

us everything, you know what.

Speaker 1: I mean, wouldn't be the first time, That's what I

wouldn't be the first.

Speaker 2: I don't think it's completely implausible to say, like we

don't even know if what they're saying was true.

Speaker 1: Maybe he was going to Russia on the rag right right.

There was another review that took place in twenty twenty

four after a line of in cruise opened by some

independent investigating agencies. But there wasn't like any new DNA,

there was no needs so it kind of just sits there.

I will say, like William's family has very publicly admonished

the Metro police and like they're handling of it, yeah,

because they're like what the fuck, Like this kind of

DNA showing up, You guys didn't take you know, there

was all these questions you should have been asking people

that you didn't ask. So they have been very public

of your job, not being impressed by the police work. Right, same,

but unfortunately it is unsolved, Like there is no definitive

answers as to it was putin, who killed him, how

he got in the bag, how the bag then got

into the bathtub, how the lot got on the bag,

like right, fucking Kremlin. He got Kremlin.

Speaker 2: Maybe that's sent to the Eternal Gula maybe or maybe

it was his own Guys, what if it was that's

what like, Yep, that's what I assumed Russia.

Speaker 1: I was like, oh, Russia, Yeah, and like it could

have been. I don't know. I don't know. Who's to

say he had access to information for first.

Speaker 2: It's not like I understand that they're saying, like it's

not like he's the lead of the company or like

he was entrusted with secrets. But it's like, well, what

if he was, And like, you don't have to be

a high ranking guide, like you're in the computers. What

if you accidentally stumble on something you're not supposed to

have access to.

Speaker 1: I do that all the time, and I'm like, what

I was supposed to see that?

Speaker 2: Our door just got gets kicked down, gets swatted at

the FBI.

Speaker 1: Oh yeah, they are talking about the FBI launching their

own investigation too, because really, yeah, because of his status

of being like six months from being deployed, like that

would have also put him working with the FBI in

some capacity. So they were like, Okay, well we need

to look into this because what if our interests had

the compromised. Yeah, there was a lot of like broad

government agency investigation, although I didn't really see anything about it.

Doesn't seem to me that they came to any different,

but there was like rumblings of that at something. Yeah,

I mean they looked into it, okay, because they needed

to make make sure their ship was clean.

Speaker 2: It's not spoiler alert.

Speaker 1: What are you talking about? What are you talking about?

Innocent angel say they never do anything wrong. Jagger Hoover

had nothing but the best intentions for the United States.

Oh man. So anyway, that is the story of Ross Street.

Speaker 2: He's a really good one, very mysterious mystery. I don't

have to tell you things are bad. Everybody knows things

are bad.

Speaker 1: It's a depression, everybody losing their job. All right, Rachel,

that has been our show in our episode. Do you

have any final thoughts before we close out?

Speaker 2: Probably none that I should say here.

Speaker 1: On that note, our sound and editing is by t Fullman.

Our music is by Jason Zashevski. Do your nigba. If

you enjoyed this episod so you can find more just

like this at Bad Taste podcast dot com. We will

see you in two weeks. Goodbye, good bye, you'll worry.

Speaker 2: I think it was as if a wave of people

washed over was town.

Speaker 1: You gotta un out all. You wear it in some

form or another