Spade Robinson Shares Secrets on Collaborating with Writers to Refine Their Scripts

We're delighted to introduce Spade Robinson, a talented filmmaker, screenwriter, and story consultant. She runs the Atlanta Film Project, a consulting firm dedicated to helping storytellers polish their scripts and projects. Currently, Spade is working on her debut feature film, 'Late Bloomers,' set against the beautiful backdrop of the American Heartland.

In our chat, we explore what a story consultant does, how Spade encourages hesitant writers to be honest and dig deeper for stronger screenplays, and she shares five of her best screenwriting tips. She also talks about her favorite clients—including housewives who are passionate screenwriters—how to handle rejection with resilience, and the step she believes offers the most democratic way for a writer to change their life.    

Executive Producer Kristin Overn
Creator/Executive Producer Sandy Adomaitis
Producer Terry Sampson
Music by Ethan Stoller

1 Hello, my name is Sandy, the social media director for the

page, international Screenwriting Awards, and your

host for the Writer's Hangout.

A podcast that celebrates the many stages of writing, from

inspiration to the first draft, revising, getting a project made

and everything in between.

We'll talk to the best and the brightest in the entertainment

industry and create a space where you can hang out, learn

from the pros, and have fun.

Hey writers, it's Sandy.

I'm coming to you from Studio City, the crown jewel of the San

Fernando Valley and home to the now Historical Brady Bunch House

as of March 4th, 2026, when it was unanimously.

Designated a Los Angeles historical cultural monument,

protecting it from demolition.

Sure.

Jan.

I had no idea how bad my Sure Jan was.

boy do we have a great show for you today.

My guest is Spade Robinson, an award-winning filmmaker,

screenwriter, and story consultant who serves as the

owner of the Atlanta Film Project, a boutique consulting

firm that helps storytellers Refine their scripts and

projects.

Spade is currently developing her first feature film titled

Late Bloomers, which is set in America's Heartland Writers.

I really think you're gonna like this episode Because we discuss

what a story consultant does, how Spade pulls the honesty out

of the reluctant writer and teaches them to dig deeper for a

better screenplay.

Spade also shares five screenwriting tips.

Her favorite clients, including housewives who are

screenwriters.

How to master rejection.

And Spade talks about the most democratic way a writer can

change their life.

Good stuff.

Let's start the show.

Spade Robinson, thank you so much for joining me on The

Writer's Hangout.

Yay.

Thank you for having me.

are you up for a quick game of, would you Rather?

Absolutely.

Great.

Now, would you rather find true love today or win the lottery

next year, win the lottery next year?

would you rather get a tattoo of the last book you read or the

last movie you saw?

Book.

Would you rather be able to converse with animals or speak

any language?

Speak any language, any day, any time.

Would you rather hop everywhere or skip everywhere?

Skip everywhere.

Would you rather spend a week in the forest or a night in a real

haunted house?

Alex, give me fours for 300.

Please.

Would you rather walk to work in heels or drive to work in

reverse?

Drive to work in reverse?

Me too.

Would you rather be stranded on a desert island with somebody

who won't stop talking about the television series sister,

sister, or be alone?

Be alone.

Would you rather win$10,000 or your best friend win$100,000.

My best friend?

last one?

Would you rather be the funniest person in the room or the

smartest person in the room?

Smartest person in the room.

There you go.

Spade.

Can you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself?

Yes.

my name is Spade Robinson.

I'm a story consultant and filmmaker, which basically means

I help people get to the most compelling version of their

story because it was hell learning how to get to the most

compelling version of mine.

And I work with people across the gamut.

So on one side, I'm a film professor, so students who sort

of have paid for the experience by way of their parents and all

the way to people who work one-on-one with me who are

parents and pay for it themselves.

And, to the other end of the spectrum, which is studios,

networks, and nonprofits who are supporting or hiring or

cultivating artists, helping them either understand which.

Artists they should pick for their cohort, fellowships, labs,

et cetera, which, artists, they should be hiring.

Or what is trending or bumbling up in terms of the zeitgeist for

artists?

So on the programming side where our program film festivals, it's

more about choosing a slate of projects that speak to what

artists are grappling with.

Right now.

Can you tell us what a story consultant does?

Yes.

The official way to talk about it would be, I help people who

tell stories to tell the best version of that story by pulling

out the most.

Honest or brave part of them, so they're prepared to tell that

story.

I think the layman's version of it is probably just, therapy for

storytellers.

That's usually what it boils down to.

And then when it comes to the room that I'm in with, other

people who were choosing artists that are gonna be supported or

funded or whatever then I feel a lot more like an advocate, not

just for storytellers individually, but storytelling

overall.

I feel protective of the field.

I feel protective of the, our industry.

And I feel just as protective of the field that I do of

individual artists.

So that may look like saying, no, I know it's not really on

the page, but I can tell by the overall application that not

only is this artist super talented and ambitious and doing

the work, but they're also very generous and community driven.

So investing in them is investing in 15 other people.

As much as I can say that, I can also say this is not a script we

should be supporting.

I don't care how well it's written, it is something that is

damaging to the field overall.

and I feel equally as passionate about those things.

So I can come to you and, you know, I could say, oh, this is a

story.

It's very close to my heart.

It's about my mom, but there's not one scene where the

protagonist and the mother are together.

you would help that person find more of the honesty in their

script, maybe something they're afraid to write.

90% of my job is helping people write what they're afraid to

write.

If you're writing a story about a relationship or a character

who we rarely see, it could be about the residue of that

relationship and how it impacts somebody else.

Maybe that's the point of view by what you're telling the

story.

So.

I wouldn't necessarily say, okay, the way you're addressing

it is wrong unless the way you're addressing it is out of

fear.

And that's why almost every conversation becomes very

personal, very quickly.

And I promise, I promise I'll say this a million times.

I'm really not trying to get in your business.

I'm really not.

But you brought it up by writing about it.

So now we have to talk about it to make it better.

And ultimately writers want to write about things that they're

grappling with that they don't understand or they haven't

figured out or they feel are unfair which is great.

But when you kind of skirt around it by saying, okay, I'm

gonna pull this character completely out of my demographic

and completely out of my experience, and completely out

of my vocation so that I can really say the things that I

wanna say.

Fair.

Okay.

I know this is what you have to do for the first draft to get it

done.

Now we need to go back to why you feel the need to cover all

that up.

Because as much as your character got to say what they

want to say, you left all the dimension out of the other

person just because you're so angry with them and you haven't

forgiven them.

And now they're just like a stock character.

'cause you can't identify with them because you can't

understand why they did what they did.

So we have to unpack that for you to write great characters.

Like I'm not trying to shrink you, but I am trying to shrink

the script.

And in order for it to do the things you want to do for your

career, you wanna win awards, right?

You wanna get an Emmy, right?

You wanna get into BlueCat or you wanna get into some

screenwriting fellowship.

Yeah.

We're gonna have to take the script through therapy do you

have to get tough with writers?

does a writer sometimes come to you and just refuse to hear

anything you say?

How do you deal with that writer?

I give them homework if you are someone who's, for example, I

was working with a writer recently who has this brilliant

script, brilliant script.

But I can always make it better, right?

So if we're pushing it towards getting better then I feel like

I have to ask you certain deeper questions.

'cause you've conquered the structure, you've conquered the

character, you've conquered all the hard things, right?

So now I'm gonna push you a little bit further than you were

willing to go to make this superior.

And I had to ask about how much she identified with the main

character.

I don't identify with the main character at all.

This per character lived, 30 years ago, blah, blah, blah, all

this.

I said, okay, I think you've planted this character who is

doing these great deeds, has no flaws, so she's missing some

dimension.

And then she does this grand thing.

And I need you to know, I don't need to know.

I need you to know as a writer how she sees herself in doing

this.

Why is she really doing it?

And I got so much pushback.

Like, this person is in the medical field and they are

saving lives and blah, blah, blah, blah.

You know, of, that's why they're doing it.

They have oath and all that kind of stuff.

So then I could push back with what's the point.

What I would rather do is give them an exercise to help them

peel back the layers of their character.

Spoiler alert, peel back the layers of themselves, and it'll

be some kind of exploratory writing exercises loosely

attached to the story.

But mostly I'm getting at what do they see when they look in

the mirror?

And are they in touch with why they do what they do?

And if not, that's okay.

That's very human thing.

It's very character driven thing for them not to be aware of why

they're doing what they're doing.

But you as a writer have to know.

So let me ask you some questions about research and can you tell

me about how you felt when you came across them?

And can you tell me about like, if you feel like they made you

feel better about this or what hidden thing that you are also

hiding, right?

That's what an exercise could be getting at.

And she came back the next day and she was crying and talking

about.

How desperate, she's often been to see herself as this person,

as this kind of person, a good person, a, a part of the

community, a philanthropic person, a helpful person.

And it is very hurtful to think that there's some kind of

ulterior motive because they never want to believe that about

themselves.

And I was like, well, you're not gonna be able to write the

character who is a true human being.

If you can't reach that place.

You can't hold place for you to have contradiction yourself.

cause then you won't feel comfortable feeling good about a

character or feeling like they're deserving of being at

the center.

While embodying contradiction.

when you start to accept what is contradictory about you, you can

still have pleasure and appreciation for someone and

allow them to be, you know, dimensional and flawed and have

bad intention sometimes, or selfish intention sometimes.

And them still be deserving of everything that you're giving

them in the story.

And that's usually the kind of pushback I have past a certain

point.

The kind of pushback I have that where writers aren't quite

operating at that level has a lot to do with structure.

I am not married to any structure and I'm not someone

who will tell students, you know, you have to be married to

the classic three Act structure, but I will teach you the three

act structure and I will expect for you to write in it.

and I will grade you on your ability to write in it.

Then when it comes,'cause that's the assignment, right?

And then when it comes to any form that you like, you don't

have to capitalize a word if you don't want to, except you need

to be able to explain to me the meaningfulness of these things.

So remember when we were like in fourth grade, and we were all

learning to write poetry, and the teacher was like, well, you

don't have to use apostrophes here.

You can do whatever you want with the form.

We're like, yay, we're free from formatting.

But the truth is, the further you get in writing, again, let's

say if you do go into poetry, all of these tools, right?

Words or tools, they all have different jobs and different

meaningfulness.

So if you decide I wanna have no capital words or no punctuation,

you're giving me a story without a breath, there's a momentum

that you're creating with the cadence of these words, having

no punctuation.

There should be some meaningfulness to that.

And if you are not interested in that being the way it's read or.

Consumed, then you need to go back in and write with

punctuation so I can consume it the way you meant for it to be

consumed.

So, a lot of screenwriters feel like, well, I'm an artist.

I'm a genius.

I don't believe in structure.

But if you're working for a studio, they would like you to

know three act doctor.

You have to, it's mandatory.

And the thing is, if you wanna and big studio films break the

structure all the time for a reason, right?

So if I say I'm gonna have a much shorter second act, I'm

gonna elongate the first act because I really have to plant

all these things on my pay off later.

And they pay off so quickly and they're so satisfying.

I don't need a full third act to do that.

I prefer, and trust me, I'm gonna maintain a momentum in the

first act so you don't get bored, right?

So the two sides of the coin are that you want to understand how

you're manipulating the structure, and there should be a

creative reason why you're manipulating the structure in

the way that you are.

And the flip side of that coin is you have to make up for the

fact that you changed something that works.

So if you're saying, okay, I'm going to throw caution to the

wind, then my question is for you.

That's fine.

You are the artist.

Do what you want.

How are you making it for the fact that you still need

tension, momentum, world building, character development.

how are you infusing the story with that, if you're taking it

out of the structure?

What do you say to writers who are writing a personal script,

but they're stuck on the mundane?

I would have them revisit the timeline of their story.

So remember, in our like social studies books where they had

these timelines where they would.

Tell us like the history of a country or a period of time, and

it would be like a long horizontal line, these vertical

lines in between, and it would say in 1940, whatever such and

such and such, and then few years later such and such, ran

for whatever, right?

Well, over the course of your story, more importantly, your

character's life is a long timeline.

The day they were born, all the way to the day they died, and

all of these events in between.

A lot of times we don't know how to slide that timeline up and

down to tell the most compelling version of the story.

So if I say, okay, out of your whole life.

I'm giving you 90 minutes to tell a compelling story.

Our knee jerk reaction is human beings who like haven't, built

that muscle yet to when people on tv pretend they have a gaar

and they're looking around, well, like we have sort of that

fine tuned radar for like a compelling story.

'cause we know it's going to take high stakes and it's going

to take conflict and it's gonna take nuanced relationships.

And because we know all the ingredients, we can really

clearly see with the laser where the most compelling story is

along the timeline.

When you're earlier on, it's you nature to start things at the

beginning, So you would think the beginning is the beginning

of the day and you or the beginning of a, thing, third

party, the whatever, and.

The truth is, it's just a muscle.

So when you give yourself permission to take those

shackles off or take that that nature off and start to get that

muscle memory of figuring out narratively, what's the

beginning?

You are an advocate for mastering rejection.

Can you speak to the writers out there who might have had their

last script rejected and they're just feeling it's not worth it?

It's sad they're taking it very personal.

I mean, they put a lot of work in it.

Oh man, I have so many different answers to this question.

the broad answer is that mastering rejection is a muscle,

just like the muscle of understanding narrative, right?

It's not necessarily about starting at the beginning, but

it's about knowing what are the ingredients of an inciting

incident?

What are the ingredients of a climax?

So then I know it when I see it, right?

And then I, I start where the story starts because I know it

now when I see it.

It's the same thing with rejection in that if you can

contextualize rejection, it is less personal and painful

because you know what it means?

Something generic can be very painful.

like in a general, no, I don't want you on your script.

That can, that can be painful.

But when you have the context of.

Okay, so this is an open call for this fellowship.

40,000 people applied to this.

I made it to the semi-finalist round.

After that, there were only 60 people.

Now I understand because I'm tracking this in a specific way

where am following a trajectory as opposed to making the

assumption that my genius is gonna take me where I need to

go.

I'm following a certain trajectory, and I'm less

entitled and more curious about where my work stands when I feel

like I should be getting into all this stuff.

Why am I not getting in?

Then it, there's a brick wall there and there's nothing you

can do, but run into it.

But if I'm curious and I'm wondering, okay, where does my

work stand as opposed to me?

By myself deciding that it should be there.

Oh, okay.

So I'm applying and I'm getting a rejection letter quite early

in the process and I haven't been called in for interview or

anything like that.

So really it's not making it past the top 80%.

And I tell people all the time, 80% of everything I read is

terrible.

God awful.

Wish I never read it, and then after that, that top 20% is

where you're competitive.

So that should be good news for strong writers that you're

really only competing against 20% at any given time.

And once you make it to that 20%, you know, 10% is pretty

good and that top 10% is where you wanna live, which is this

5%, that's great.

And then 5% that's superior.

And so if you wanna make all the way to that top 5%, like

anything else, you're usually not going to start there because

getting there isn't really just about something being great,

like a great script.

You are thinking about multiple things.

So if you are still in that big 80%, you need to write a better

script, script is not great past that, then it several other

things that you're dealing with past that, then it's like, okay,

you need to fine tune it.

If you're in that next top 10%, you're not pushing to the top

10%.

And that usually has something to do with that sort of

crispiness at the top.

Like the writer's voice is a lot stronger here.

The world building is distinctive and specific.

The character development is nuanced and complex.

Okay, so now we're talking about that top 10%.

Once you punch past that and then after that, it's really not

up to you.

you are trying to get into a fellowship or a lab or a contest

or whatever, if you are in that top 10% of scripts where people

are calling you in for an interview and saying, you've

made it to the interview stage or whatever, you're a finalist.

We'd love to talk to you.

You have essentially done everything you could to get the

program and you got there after that.

What the executives on the other side are negotiating have very

little to do with the work.

It has more to do with how do I create a cohort of people that

make sense for not only each other, but what this program is

built to accomplish.

So if I have a program that I have built with the resources,

the grant money that I got, and the people in the industry that

have access to, to be mentors, it's really built for early

career writers because it's mentorship driven and it's about

giving people the ability to push their scripts forward and

all of that.

Then if I have an amazing, amazing, amazing script, but

this person has already made three features, they don't make

sense for this program.

Or I have someone who is, it's their first script and it's

amazing, amazing, amazing, amazing.

But everybody else in the cohort has a chunkier experience and

they're on the brink of something like, let's say if

it's TV and they're having an amazing pilot, but they've

already been in a writer's room as a support staff.

they're a writer's assistant, a script supervisor, something

like that.

Then I know that if I put them through my program, they're

gonna be able to take better advantage of the tools of the

program because they know how a room operates and they're

hireable immediately.

Whereas this other person with this wonderful pilot has no room

experience straight outta school.

I can't just put them into a room no matter how great their

pilot is, because there's a certain etiquette that goes

along with being in a writer's room.

There's a certain protocol and I need people who are like ready

to go.

'cause that's how I built the program.

I think when you sort of have a really strong understanding of

the industry overall, and you're self aware and honest with

yourself about where your work stacks up, then you, you take it

a lot less personally because either it's just not ready or

you need to go back to the lab and keep writing or it's great

and you just need to keep applying because you're already

there and it's not personal.

It's just they needed 15 people and you are the 16th person and

you have no other experience, or they needed 15 people and need a

16th person and you have too much experience or you're too

far along in your career, or you're not far enough, or this

is really built for a mentorship and you've already had extensive

mentorship and what you really need now is something completely

different.

You need an agent now, and we don't do that here.

what I'm taking away from it is responsibility.

Responsibility for your writing, for where you're submitting that

the more you know, the more you know, and you won't take it all

so personally.

And it, even if it's something as I'm entering a horror contest

with my romantic comedy, how dare they reject me?

You're right.

You've just really gotta be aware and that it takes steps.

It's not like a regular job that you just put in the hours and

then hopefully in a year you'll get a promotion.

Writers' knowledge is power.

Yeah.

Knowledge of the industry and the business is power.

I try and talk about that as much as humanly possible because

I spent so long as an arrogant asshole.

and I was that person for a long time.

Oh, talking to you right now.

I can't even ever imagine that, We get so like, I deserve to be

here.

No, no, no, no.

That's not the math of this situation.

You know, what is a film grant and can anyone get one or the

programs that you're talking about?

Yes.

A film grant is in layman's terms, money for your movie that

you don't have to pay back there.

Like unlike an investment, right?

There may be some deliverables, like there may be some

reporting.

If you get a grant from a nonprofit or a family

organization, then they may ask, okay, well we funded your social

issue documentary.

Can you, report back to us, like how much social change you

created or whatever, or how many people came to see the movie or

you know, how long it took you to make it or something like

that.

So a lot, sometimes there's reporting, sometimes they're not

depending on the scope of the movie and the organization.

do I just Google that as a writer and look for film grants?

Do you have to be in school, So they're all different and all

have different requirements?

It's, some of them are for students.

It's rare though.

The student ones are rare, especially if they're not

through the College of University.

Most are for emerging to professional writers or

filmmakers and.

Can anybody get them?

Yes and no.

Only, no, because of some stipulations it may be a grant

for US-based filmmakers between the ages of, 19 to 24.

So for example, the Kim Burns film grant, I think it just

closed recently.

They're looking to get young people into documentary.

So the film grant was for people like, I don't know, 19 and 23 or

something like that, because that's the mandate of that

organization.

Every one of them have a mandate, and to your point about

applying for a horror script grant or fellowship with the

romantic comedy too much of that happens with film grants where.

All of the stipulations, the mandates, and the organization's

mission is usually on the website.

And even something as simple as going to the website and

figuring out what they're looking for can save you a lot

of time, money, and stress.

Because with some of these you do have to pay an application

fee.

would you recommend that writers go for fellowships screenwriting

competitions, film grants?

Is that an avenue that you support?

Absolutely.

it's the most democratic way to change your life.

No, democratic does mean incredibly competitive.

So I advocate for people budgeting a certain amount of

money at the top of the year for how much they're gonna spend on

applications and try to stick to that.

And the small, the number, the more judicious you have to be

about what you're applying to.

So you're really spending time on those websites to figure out

what they're looking for.

'cause it's not just about genre or the types of projects, but

it's also about career stage.

A lot of them will say, we are supporting early stage careers,

we're starting mid, late stage, you know?

People get really specific about what they're looking for.

and unfortunately, of course you get like.

50% of your applications that are not even eligible.

So, I would say budget, so you don't go outta budget.

Ooh, this came up.

Ooh, this came up.

Ooh, this came up.

You know, a lot of organizations and companies will have a

calendar for all of the grants in the next calendar year from

all the different organizations all over the world.

And you can see, okay, I'm not eligible for this one.

I don't live in, you know, Uzbekistan, but, um, I am from

India.

There is one specific for Indian filmmakers and screenwriters,

but you have to be between this age.

Okay?

So I'm not eligible for that one.

I I think that's a great tip.

Because things do pop up and, you also don't want to be

chasing grants and forgetting about your own voice and your

own writing and, don't write a whole horror script if you hate

horror just because you found that the out that this grant, is

easy to win or something like that.

what advice do you have for writers who say that they're

scared to write the truth?

what, if I hurt my mother, boyfriend, teacher, I I can't

make the villain a gym teacher because my gym teacher will find

out.

I would say the most important thing is your safety.

So if you are in a dangerous situation, like you live with a

person who's abusing you and something like a writing contest

at school that will end up in the newspaper will cover it.

I would say do what is safe outside of that.

And this could be controversial, but that feeling is common and

universal and all of us sort of feel protective of people who

have heard us, a because.

Of our emotional safety.

If nothing else, we, you don't wanna cause tension where

there's already been like a breach of safety.

And b, because shame.

And that's the part that we don't always dismantle when

we're making these decisions.

We don't always investigate.

Is it as much as I don't wanna bring shame to someone else, or

is it as just as much, if not more, that I feel shame that I

allowed this, I feel shame that this happened to me.

I feel shame that I know somebody who am I worried that

putting that out there will make them look bad and therefore make

me look like a snitch or therefore make me feel like a

spotlight is on something negative that happened to me?

There's no way, I think, to be the brilliant writer that a lot

of people are aiming to be without addressing these kinds

of things off the page, because you need access to what the

truth is.

In order to write about it.

And sometimes the truth is buried under another one, which

is buried on another, which is buried another one.

So I'll give you a real quick example.

I have all of my clients do a story statement for all of their

projects, especially if it's a feature script it's a question

that I believe every good story asked.

This is a story of this person, this character who wants this

thing, this tangible want.

Will they be successful or will their internal obstacle prove

too difficult?

Well, you, we always know the character's name Billy Bobs who

sue, whoever.

But when it comes to the tangible want, that's sometimes

the challenge.

But the bigger challenge is often the internal obstacle.

What is the internal thing that your character is managing?

Not the external, like the big monster that's trying to kill

everybody, or the, alcoholic grandmother who beat you beyond

outside of your body.

There's something internal that's holding you back from the

thing that you want, just like in real life.

And usually we'll start off with something sort of on the

surface, like, this person has low self worth.

Okay, great.

Now, what is underneath that low self-worth?

What's vibrating underneath that surface?

Is it like a shame based thing?

Is it a, there's been a breach of sort of innocence?

what is the thing underneath that has created this low

self-worth that creates obstacle for this character?

I know this is like a little bit of a word salad, but I think in

the scenario that you described.

Okay.

My father who was a great dad in some ways, but also abusive in

these like really tiny, small ways that I couldn't really

quantify or find language for.

But the older I get, the more I realize like how insidious and

harmful it was.

And I don't wanna write about it 'cause I wanna maintain this

relationship.

Okay.

So there's a few questions we have to ask, which is barring

everything else.

Are you being honest about this relationship or do you have to

be dishonest to maintain connection?

Because if you tell me that, then I can say, what do you

want?

More than anything, I wanna maintain connection.

Okay, great.

So this is how we're gonna address it on the page.

We're going to give your main character perspective that she

doesn't know is happening.

And these things on the surface come off as like funny or light.

We're gonna put them all in jokes.

And only people who are perceptive enough when they

watch it are gonna be like wait, what did he say?

But the people who already feel like this is okay are just gonna

laugh.

And then that's how you get to say what you want to say but

it's very difficult to get to that place and coming up with a

strategy for how to get you to the most compelling version of

your story.

If we don't talk about the truth, about what happened, what

you're really grappling with, and then what do you want now?

it's the difference between, Hmm, this is a good script.

Maybe I'll keep them in mind for staffing someday, or I gotta

make this movie.

Yeah.

on TikTok, you're known as The Writer's Whisperer.

cool name.

What are your top five screenwriting tips?

Structure character development and emotional bravery.

You should feel structure in your body, like in your bone.

It should be like muscle memory because you should know around

page 14, this should be happening.

You should know.

And you know, if you going outside of there, your body goes

eh, like I I have a Toyota.

And when I'm like driving outside the lane a little bit or

like nudge me back in, you know, so your body will start to do

that when you're like, all right, we're at page 20 and we

haven't even left the city yet.

What is happening?

This is a road trip movie.

so that'll keep you in line.

And then when it comes to the next thing I would say when it

comes to structure is just having a good idea of how

something should be arcing and developing, right?

So I should understand not just that what should be happening at

a certain time, but emotionally I should feel like This is the

best things could ever get right here.

And then by this sort of page range, I should feel like all is

lost and is desperate and there's no opportunity.

And by here I should feel satisfied and surprised.

And then I would say, the last thing with structure is just,

thinking of character in the same way.

So that usually there's some kind of character change.

Not always, but if you are writing something where there is

some kind of character change then I should feel that, right?

I should feel this person looking and navigating a place

where this is the first time they've been like, all right,

all right, I, okay, enough is enough.

This I have to, make some changes here and I should, or if

they're gonna double down, I should feel that place where the

character's like absolutely not.

and then on top of that, I would say character development is the

heart.

I think of every screenplay.

Human beings are looking to experience A, seeing themselves,

and B seeing the human we experience reflected back to

them.

Watching a person have that experience and undergo that

journey is built in structure.

It's not really built in the emotional mushy part of like,

oh, I wrote two pages of backstory for this person.

It's great.

I'm never gonna see any of that though on the screen.

So I assign people write backstory all the time, but.

What holds a movie together emotionally is structure.

And so character development on top of that just sweetens that

which is adding dimension to all the people.

And that includes making sure that the relationships have

enough dynamics.

So it's not just about Billy having a three dimensional

character writeup and Sam having the same treatment, but it's

about these two brothers who have a nuanced way of

communicating and dealing with each other that is going to show

up on screen.

And then on, on top of that, I would have to say emotional

bravery on the part of the writer, which is, this is hard

or painful or it gives me anxiety, or whatever the

uncomfortable piece is internally associated with what

it is that you're writing, you being brave and writing despite

of that.

Is sort of how I would build advice for writers.

So that's structure.

That was three, right?

Structure, structure.

Oh, I see.

So three structures, right?

And then character development and, I'm sorry, what was the

last one?

Emotional bravery.

Emotional bravery.

I couldn't remember.

Emotional bravery after we talked about it for a half hour

up at the top.

while I was watching your TikTok tutorials, you often reach out

to people who are under appreciated in filmmaking.

What advice would you have for, say, a housewife, screenwriter,

So housewives are definitely my favorite clients.

And it's because.

They have time to write and because I would say it's

somewhere between housewives and like people who like work very

non film related jobs, but they like some find a way to get it

in.

Housewives are in an interesting position where they have time to

write, they've experienced quite a bit of life and the things

that they wanna write about are usually so subtle.

The themes are so subtle and interesting.

I can't tell you how many clients I've had where they have

this life with this like white picket fence.

And the stuff they wanna talk about are like these tiny little

threads that sort of run through their lives that are unnerving

and really hidden.

And.

Because there's just like unspoken agreement.

There's like multiple unspoken agreements within their

communities that we don't talk about.

And so when they end up on the page, I'm like, okay, girl, you

sure you wanna say that?

And it's always so much fun.

There's so much passion because a lot of times there's so much

of their life that they've given up happily to support and raise

their families.

And this is sometimes the first thing that they're doing for

themselves that they've always wanted to do.

Um, and like, do you think I can have a career?

Yes, girl.

Yes.

Let's get you there.

So that is specifically about them, but to more broadly answer

your question, my advice for writers who feel as though they

don't fit into the.

Picture of what they've seen a screenwriter be, which is like

some young dude with a beard.

You have to realize that everything you know about what

that kind of person looks and feels and smells like is made

up.

The, the whole idea that you're like, yeah, but I'm not,

whatever.

Fill in the blank for whatever that is.

Somebody made that up.

Absolutely.

And across the board, if everyone were given the exact

same opportunities, the wide range of people you would see in

our industry would just be, you know, a wider range.

Wouldn't that be nice?

It would change the world because there are voices that

are missing.

So when we were at Sundance, my boss used to ask this all the

time when we were deciding if, are we gonna fund this film?

We have$20,000 left.

Is this what we're, is this what we're doing with it?

Is this what we're hanging?

Is this the one we're hanging our hat on?

And especially if it's about a topic that's been explored

multiple times or being explored a lot, my boss would say, okay,

so if aliens were, and this is before, before we knew what we

know now, she would say, if aliens were to come down to

Earth and only understand humanity by watching movies, is

this the movie we would have them to watch about this topic?

That's, that is a big question.

And the truth is, babies are aliens.

They haven't been here before.

So when they show up and they learn how to be in the world by

way of watching movies, which by the way is how human beings

learn how to be in the world.

It's multifaceted.

It's not just movies.

It's a huge part of that.

We learn when we're kids, we learn how to be grownups.

You know, like what's cool smoking cigarettes and like

putting on lipstick and talking to boys.

Like, you're like a living, you're like, yeah, that's what

I'm gonna be like, you know?

So we learned so much about how to be, how to act.

I had this assignment when I, my first year in film school, my

professor asked like us to go home and make a list of things

we learned from watching movies.

I was appalled by what I learned from watching movies.

'cause I was like, oh, you know, I learned the perfect moment to

lean in for a kiss.

I learned that from watching movies and then the list started

to get dark.

Like I learned that men are inherently flawed in its women's

jobs to forgive them.

'cause that's all you see in movies.

Yes, boy meets girl, boy screws up royally and then he puts a

boombox on his head and certainly everything is okay.

Not addressing the thing he did, just the boombox on his head.

And that's everything we learn about romance is he's gonna

screw up.

It's my job to forgive him.

I would love to have you back on and let's just.

Talk about five movies each and what we learned in life and, did

it work for us I think that would be so much fun to do.

Oh my gosh, I would love that.

to your point about like aliens coming to Earth and learning

about humanity and how to be and how we are by watching movies I

think as people are coming up, they are those people, they

learn how to be.

So we, if we had a field that was so inclusive that every kind

of voice was represented, everybody had the ability to

tell stories and put it out there and get an audience that

people would see it.

Our understanding of the human experience would be wildly

different.

I agree 100%.

Spade, you have shared so much of your knowledge.

I really appreciate it.

How can our writers, contact or follow you?

If you are looking to just get some screenwriting tips and

things like that you can find me on TikTok.

My handle on TikTok is Atlanta Film Project, and you can go

there and I, I talk about screenwriting and film business

and all of that.

And if you'd like to work with me one-on-one, you can go to

Atlanta film project.com and click on Work with Spade and

then just book some time on my calendar, depending on what you

need.

Read a script, watch a cut of your documentary, et cetera.

And you'll have me locked in.

thank you so much for being on the Writer's Hangout.

Thank you for having me.

This is so fun.

Yay.

and that's a wrap for the Writer's Hangout.

Thanks so much for listening.

If you enjoyed the show, please take a moment to leave us a

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Your positive feedback will help us keep the show going so we can

continue bringing you more future episodes.

Remember, keep writing.

The world needs your stories.

The Writers Hangout is sponsored by the Page International

Screenwriting Awards, with executive producer Kristen

Overn, Sandy Adamides, And our music is composed by Ethan

Stoller.

Alexa, you are gaslighting me, This is so fun.

Yay.