Mansfield Park Volume 3 Chapter 1

Sir Thomas has a full-on crashout when Fanny reveals that she wishes to refuse Henry Crawford. He cross examines her until she cries, and she narrowly escapes him finding out about her crush on Edmund. But after absolutely tearing her to shreds, he still gets a fire going in the East Room. The next day, Fanny finds herself alone with Henry Crawford.

Topics discussed Fanny's empty fireplace, the "little privations" the Bertrams have bestowed on Fanny, Becca's 1-4 scale for categorizing peoples' morals vs. how good a hang they are, the conditionality of Fanny's position at Mansfield Park and the transactional nature of her relationship with the Bertrams.

A COURT OF MIST AND FURY SPOILERS AT 42:40

Patron Study Questions come from Ghenet and Avi.l Topics discussed include whether Sir Thomas would have believed Fanny if she told him about Henry's debauchery and Fanny's refusal to break her convictions about Henry.

Becca's Study Questions: Topics discussed include how Sir Thomas and Fanny's relationship shifted during the fight and the result of the mismatch between them, the symbolism of the fire, and why this chapter reads more like Proposalgeddon than the last chapter.

Funniest Quote: She was preparing to obey, when Mrs. Norris called out, “Stay, stay, Fanny! what are you about? where are you going? don’t be in such a hurry. Depend upon it, it is not you who are wanted; depend upon it, it is me” (looking at the butler); “but you are so very eager to put yourself forward. What should Sir Thomas want you for? It is me, Baddeley, you mean; I am coming this moment. You mean me, Baddeley, I am sure; Sir Thomas wants me, not Miss Price.” But Baddeley was stout. “No, ma’am, it is Miss Price; I am certain of its being Miss Price.”

Questions moving forward: Will this be a love story? What's going to happen in this conversation between Henry and Fanny? Why are they unchaperoned?

Who wins the chapters? Fanny

Glossary of Terms and Phrases:

imputing (v): giving the blame or credit for to some person or cause.

misapprehension (n): an understanding or belief about something that is not correct

Glossary of People, Places, and Things: Fire Island, A Court of Thorns and Roses

Next Episode: Mansfield Park Volume III Chapters 2-3

Our show art was created by Torrence Browne, and our audio is produced by Graham Cook. For bios and transcripts, check out our website at podandprejudice.com. Pod and Prejudice is transcribed by speechdocs.com. To support the show, check out our Patreon! Check out our merch at https://podandprejudice.dashery.com.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Hey everyone!

[SPEAKER_01]: Before we begin today, we'd like to thank our newest patron Meredith.

[SPEAKER_01]: Welcome to the team.

[SPEAKER_01]: If you want to be like Meredith and get access to bonus content like our notes, our discord community, and the opportunity to submit your very own study questions, check out our patreon at patreon.com slash pod and prejudice.

[SPEAKER_01]: And now, enjoy this week's episode covering the first chapter of Volume 3 of Mansfield Park.

[SPEAKER_03]: So we started talking about man's field park off Mike and I need to share exactly what happened Molly turned to me and said, quote, if this all ends with her marrying admin, I'm going to be really upset.

[SPEAKER_03]: I'm not going to confirm or deny that, but male if you'd like to interject here as well.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, hi, am I live?

[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, buddy.

[SPEAKER_00]: So I don't know who Edmund is.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm assuming a cousin based off of the story I'm about to tell.

[SPEAKER_00]: But the other day, Milo.

[SPEAKER_03]: Wait, wait, I'll give you the context really quick.

[SPEAKER_03]: Our main girl is Fanny.

[SPEAKER_03]: Fanny's lived with her cousins the Bertrams since she was 10 years old and her best friend is her cousin crush Edmund Bertram, who has been her best friend since she was 10 years old.

[SPEAKER_03]: And she loves him with a man dying sort of vibe and he is really into somebody else.

[SPEAKER_03]: So that's the context.

[SPEAKER_00]: Just the context.

[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so then this makes sense.

[SPEAKER_00]: So what happened was Molly was reading this week's reading of Mansfield Park and she put the book down and a few minutes later, Mylo was laying on top of the book.

[SPEAKER_00]: Mylo is our four pound dog, tiny dog.

[SPEAKER_00]: And so Molly comes back into the room and says, Oh, mylo, were you reading Mansfield Park?

[SPEAKER_00]: And I said, yeah, he says, it was the cousins and Molly is completely annoyed and mad.

[SPEAKER_00]: Spoiled makes a face and just goes no as if I being my low in that moment spoiled something in the book which spoiler alert to the listeners I have never read this book I was gonna say Melanie what is your level of familiarity with Mansfield Park on a scale of one to ten?

[SPEAKER_00]: I love fire Island the movie So so so so six

[SPEAKER_03]: All right, yeah, so we're up.

[SPEAKER_01]: So thank you, Mal, for joining us today.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yes, so everybody.

[SPEAKER_03]: All right.

[SPEAKER_03]: Thank you, Melanie.

[SPEAKER_03]: I just thought you guys had to hear that little snippet as we go forward and more working to do Molly.

[SPEAKER_03]: What are we going to do?

[SPEAKER_03]: We're going to neither confirm nor deny.

[SPEAKER_01]: Neither confirm nor deny.

[SPEAKER_01]: Exactly.

[SPEAKER_01]: I was like, I'm not used to saying that part.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I don't know.

[SPEAKER_01]: I know how it goes.

[SPEAKER_03]: I thought we were getting into this as Becca.

[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, no, no, that is my line.

[SPEAKER_03]: This is Becca.

[SPEAKER_03]: This is Molly.

[SPEAKER_03]: We are here to talk about Jane Austen.

[SPEAKER_03]: We are here specifically to talk about Mansfield Park.

[SPEAKER_03]: Listeners, if you're new here, I Becca have read many Jane Austen novels through my lifetime.

[SPEAKER_03]: And I'm Molly and reading all of her works for the first time through this podcast.

[SPEAKER_03]: If you want to hear Molly read through Pride and Prejudice, since in sensibility, Emma or Persuasion for the first time, you can listen to seasons 1, 2, 3, and 4 of this podcast respectively, but that is not what we're doing here today.

[SPEAKER_01]: No, today we are talking about volume 3.

[SPEAKER_01]: Third volume chapter 1 of Mansfield Park.

[SPEAKER_01]: Chapter 1 or chapter 32.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, if your book is not broken up into volumes.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yes, indeed.

[SPEAKER_03]: We have a rather long doozy of a chapter.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, and I can see why you wanted it to go immediately after the previous chapter, you were like, oh my god, a big proposal happened nothing else is going to happen.

[SPEAKER_01]: I knew that there would be something certainly, but I didn't realize just what what would be like obviously I knew he wasn't going to give up, but I didn't know that Sir Thomas was going to go off the deep end.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, that is a way to describe this.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's what we, the children would call a crash out.

[SPEAKER_01]: I believe he has a full-on crash out.

[SPEAKER_03]: Full crash out, we're going to get into it because there's lots of fun stuff to discuss in this chapter and also some not some fun stuff to discuss in this chapter.

[SPEAKER_03]: There's a lot happening, but just to recap where we were last episode, we had a proposal Graham the sound effect that was deeply unwelcome from Henry Crawford to our girl Fanny

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, we did.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, very tough moment for our girl, Fanny.

[SPEAKER_03]: She basically wrote Mary and was like, thank you so much.

[SPEAKER_03]: None of that, please.

[SPEAKER_03]: She tells Henry, thank you so much.

[SPEAKER_03]: None of that, please.

[SPEAKER_03]: And then she runs away and thinks that's the end of the Mac matter.

[SPEAKER_03]: And then narrator, it was not the end of the matter.

[SPEAKER_01]: It was not so should we get into what happens next.

[SPEAKER_01]: We should get into what happens next and before we get into it, I will say like we'll we'll talk about this, but I want to know like your thoughts about this chapter compared to the last chapter last chapter there was this like super happy thing that happened right like William is promoted and

[SPEAKER_01]: Even though she was very unhappy about receiving the proposal, she thought, okay, but I shut that down and William is promoted and the last chapter ended on like a happy note and I did call that he was going to misinterpret.

[SPEAKER_01]: everything about her reception of his proposal.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: But for the proposal then to come through the very proper channels that it comes through in this chapter because she gets the proposal re doubled.

[SPEAKER_01]: And for her to say no and for everything to like

[SPEAKER_01]: crashed down when Sir Thomas hears that she wants to say no.

[SPEAKER_01]: This chapter is very different in tone, like she's just crying the whole time.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's a more serious proposal.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yes, chapter.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's not like the oh my god is even serious.

[SPEAKER_01]: Right.

[SPEAKER_01]: Now it's clear that he is serious.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's clear that he's serious.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's coming and also like we'll talk about it more, but like there's just like the way the Jane Austen structures each chapter tells us something about where she puts the weight of the story.

[SPEAKER_03]: Anyway, we should we should get into what actually the chapter is.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, we'll talk more about all of that.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm sure as as we go on.

[SPEAKER_01]: So it's the morning after.

[SPEAKER_01]: And Fanny feels absolutely confident that her letter did the trick that he is going to leave her alone.

[SPEAKER_03]: She's waking up in her little bushwick loft and she's like, okay, I'm my, my he didn't air is kind of crap in here, but guess what?

[SPEAKER_03]: Send the text I needed to send.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I'm free.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm free.

[SPEAKER_01]: She's like, he should just leave.

[SPEAKER_01]: He only came back here so that he could take his sister to London, why hasn't he left yet?

[SPEAKER_01]: Get out of here.

[SPEAKER_01]: So she is surprised to see that he is approaching the house this morning.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's early, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: So it's like the same time that he came the day before and she's like, let me just stay up here.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, she basically is like, if no one comes to get me, I will not go down there and maybe he doesn't actually want to see me.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's possible that he's not even here to ask me about yesterday.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, it's possible that he's just coming to say hi to my uncle.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm just going to say, but unfortunately, she hears footsteps eventually.

[SPEAKER_01]: She sure does.

[SPEAKER_01]: And these footsteps belong to her uncle.

[SPEAKER_01]: and she recalls as a youth trembling at the sound of his footsteps and has a moment to think about how far she's come because she doesn't really tremble at the sound of his footsteps anymore except for right now, she is.

[SPEAKER_03]: Not the idea of him, but the anticipation of what he might be bringing right now is what's making her tremble.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, exactly exactly.

[SPEAKER_01]: She lets him in and she gets his little chair set up and she's so frazzled about the prospect of what he's bringing.

[SPEAKER_01]: that she doesn't even apologize for the room.

[SPEAKER_01]: And this is a thing that she often does.

[SPEAKER_01]: And it's coming too fruition here.

[SPEAKER_01]: Because whenever she let someone into the East room, she's always like, oh, I'm so sorry.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't have a fire lit or like, I'm so sorry that like, I don't have a couch or whatever, you know.

[SPEAKER_01]: And in this moment, she doesn't say that.

[SPEAKER_01]: And he's like, funny.

[SPEAKER_01]: don't you have a fire and she's like oh I don't I'm not cold this time of year and he's like but you generally have a fire and she's like oh she says um I don't uh no and he says well

[SPEAKER_01]: That, that has to be a mistake.

[SPEAKER_01]: He says it must be a misapprehension, which is a mistake and belief.

[SPEAKER_01]: So therefore he's saying the maids must have misunderstood because the rooms, the the East room, is meant to be hers for her to become forgettable in.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so there must be a fire and she's weak and frail.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so she needs to keep warm.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then he ends by saying,

[SPEAKER_01]: wants to save Lady Bertram's face essentially.

[SPEAKER_01]: She's like, well, it's, it was really my ant Norris who she's kind of mumbles.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, but well, really my other room.

[SPEAKER_01]: She mumbles it and all he hears is ant Norris and he's like, like Bob, ah, of course.

[SPEAKER_01]: He says, listen, I know Mrs. Norris

[SPEAKER_01]: Of course, she herself is a hearty woman.

[SPEAKER_01]: So she wouldn't realize the necessity of a fire for someone like Fanny.

[SPEAKER_01]: And he says he also knows that Mrs. Norris has generally, well, he doesn't actually say Mrs. Norris has shown a partiality towards her cousins, but he says there has been a misplaced distinction in the household.

[SPEAKER_03]: And this place distinction, he and her discussed when Fannie was first brought there when she was 10 years old.

[SPEAKER_01]: You're right.

[SPEAKER_01]: It was totally planned and this was discussed.

[SPEAKER_01]: And he's trying to now kind of brush it off as like, you know, you must understand that we were only trying to prepare you for what.

[SPEAKER_01]: We thought your life would be like we wouldn't wouldn't want to treat you He's like we wanted to make you aware that you are less But I don't want to be unhappy and less right just less just less and he also says that perhaps All of that will have been made unnecessary now because of the news that he brings

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, and this goes to show you.

[SPEAKER_03]: I like Jane Austen's use here of this like a little bit of irony to show how far Phanies come in Sir Thomas's estimation and also to show why Phanie has come so far in Sir Thomas's estimation.

[SPEAKER_01]: Why has she?

[SPEAKER_01]: Well, we're going to talk about it.

[SPEAKER_01]: We're going to talk about it.

[SPEAKER_01]: I had a couple of quotation marks that I wanted to just there is a lot to unpack in this crash.

[SPEAKER_01]: There's just so much to say but in this portion he says that there

[SPEAKER_01]: prior caution may proven necessary because of the fact that she might marry up.

[SPEAKER_01]: And the advantage of affluence will be more keenly felt by her because of the quote, little privateions and restrictions, privateions here meaning like deprivations that they've inflicted upon her, that quote may have been imposed.

[SPEAKER_01]: I just thought that was like really ripe as they say for him to be saying like, well, you know,

[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe the things that we've deprived you of or that we may have deprived you of may come make you feel even happier now that you're going to be rich.

[SPEAKER_01]: So annoying.

[SPEAKER_01]: Anyway, he says, all of that aside, Mr. Crawford came to see me this morning and you can probably guess why.

[SPEAKER_01]: And Fanny blushes, she looks away and he thinks, great, she's blushing, that's a good sign.

[SPEAKER_01]: So he tells her, Mr. Crawford had come to request Fanny's hand and marriage.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, we're going to need like 8,000 different proposal sounds for the next like bit of this chapter.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but also like the one where there's like a bomb dropping and like yeah, we have quite I think we have like another we have proposal getting electric boogaloo.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, so he's really happy to tell her this

[SPEAKER_01]: telling her everything that happened word for word essentially.

[SPEAKER_01]: She's just like silently stewing and he ends by saying that Mr. Crawford is downstairs and is hoping to see Fanny and Fanny jumps which startles Sir Thomas and she goes, no, he should know after yesterday that my answer is no, I cannot return his good opinion.

[SPEAKER_01]: and Sir Thomas is like, right, huh?

[SPEAKER_03]: Yep, this is a big record scratch in Sir Thomas's brain, who is thought he was walking up here being like, it's finally come.

[SPEAKER_03]: She's gonna get married.

[SPEAKER_03]: I get to tell her, I'll cook sir down.

[SPEAKER_03]: And now we've gotten a little fany price saying, no thank you.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's she saying absolutely not yet she is saying no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no like his idea where he's coming up here thinking that Mr. Crawford had received encouragement after the proposal yesterday or quote as much encouragement as a well judging young woman could permit herself to give so he thought or maybe what Mr. Crawford thought is that fan he only said no because he wasn't

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, and I mean, this is why I raised last week whether or not you thought that Henry was being impulsive when he asked because he didn't ask right.

[SPEAKER_03]: He didn't ask right.

[SPEAKER_01]: I still don't think he was being impulsive, but I do think that he realized or that he thought that she thought he was being impulsive and was like, let me ask her uncle.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, well, he also might have thought, oh, she might not think I'm serious.

[SPEAKER_03]: I know how to make that happen.

[SPEAKER_03]: Hmm.

[SPEAKER_01]: She definitely didn't think he was

[SPEAKER_01]: Henry.

[SPEAKER_01]: If you propose to a woman and she doesn't think you're serious, then you have some bigger problems to address with yourself.

[SPEAKER_03]: If Henry Crawford were open to that sort of self-reflection, I don't think we would be here.

[SPEAKER_01]: Right, the book would actually have ended a while ago.

[SPEAKER_01]: Exactly.

[SPEAKER_01]: So, Fanny is like, no, you're mistaken.

[SPEAKER_01]: I gave him absolutely no encouragement.

[SPEAKER_01]: I can't recall my exact words.

[SPEAKER_01]: Which we remember, we remember, which was, um, this is the sort of talking, which is very unpleasant to me.

[SPEAKER_01]: This is the type of conversation that is very unpleasant to me.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: So she's like, but I know that I told him that it was unpleasant, which could good for you girl.

[SPEAKER_01]: That was the word you use.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I begged him to never talk to me like that again, but if you think back on it, while she did say all those things, she never said no.

[SPEAKER_01]: like to his proposal.

[SPEAKER_03]: Well, I think if a girl says stop during her proposal, that's a no.

[SPEAKER_01]: I agree, but to Henry Crawford, I could see why he might twist it in his little P-brain to think, see their generous to think, oh, she wants me to never talk to her like that again.

[SPEAKER_01]: So maybe I should talk to her through her uncle.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yep.

[SPEAKER_01]: And also get my sister's approval.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yep.

[SPEAKER_01]: So, while I don't agree with his choices, I see why he specifically thought those things.

[SPEAKER_03]: This is so generous.

[SPEAKER_01]: I know, well, I am generous, Jim, because he is very attractive.

[SPEAKER_03]: Also, like, our listeners hate him.

[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, I don't want to go confirm or deny anything.

[SPEAKER_03]: There's so much you won't be privy to when we finish this book.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I can't wait because I feel like also even just like in the comments on our Instagram posts,

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, exactly like this bitch anyway.

[SPEAKER_03]: Well, I mean, without giving anything away about like the way the book ends like Why honestly, this is about behavior in a lot of ways from Henry like what we do on this podcast is we want to see all angles except Edmund sometimes Which like and I also see Edmund's angle, but like we'll go.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, we reduce the Edmund's angle.

[SPEAKER_03]: I mostly kidding

[SPEAKER_03]: but we said and like we want to indulge in the fact that Henry is like a man on a journey right now.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_03]: He is a man with a story right now and he's a compelling character because we know his internal life and that doesn't stop us from putting moral judgments on him for his behavior here and we'll get into it but the consequences of this conversation are kind of tough.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_03]: And we can keep going with that.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think also the consequences of this conversation quite honestly have nothing to do with him.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, obviously he has stuff to do with this chapter, but what really made this tough was Sir Thomas, but we'll get into it.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so Fanny.

[SPEAKER_01]: Tells Sir Thomas that she would have said even more to the effect of like get the fuck away from me to Henry had she thought he was serious, but she didn't want to quote be imputing more than might be intended and I did have to look up imputing which means to incorrectly believe.

[SPEAKER_01]: Something is happening for a reason when it's happening for a different reason.

[SPEAKER_01]: So She didn't want to believe that his proposal was coming from actually loving her.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, she don't want to be like no I reject this proposal if it were like a fake proposal.

[SPEAKER_01]: Right because that would be embarrassing.

[SPEAKER_03]: Exactly.

[SPEAKER_01]: We'll come back to that Just put a pin in it.

[SPEAKER_01]: We'll come back to that.

[SPEAKER_01]: So Sir Thomas says Am I too understand that you mean to refuse Mr. Crawford?

[SPEAKER_03]: And the way Jane Austen writes that is like with a lot of tension, a lot of tension, and that's when Fanny says the word, yes, she doesn't tend to refuse Mr. Crawford, to which Sir Thomas replies refuse him fucking why yeah the fact that this is a very tense moment does not stop it from potentially being my funniest quote because I wrote it down.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'll just read it now because it goes like this.

[SPEAKER_01]: Am I to understand that you mean to refuse Mr. Crawford?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, sir.

[SPEAKER_01]: Refuse him?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, sir.

[SPEAKER_01]: Refuse Mr. Crawford.

[SPEAKER_01]: Upon what plea for what reason, I cannot like him sir well enough to marry him.

[SPEAKER_01]: This is very strange.

[SPEAKER_01]: Indeed it is.

[SPEAKER_01]: I just thought it was a bit double refusing for me that really it was just very

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, for me, it's so funny that you I saw that was your funniest quote listed in aren't like the notes document and when I saw it I was like oh I read that so differently because for me like my heart plummets to my bite when I read it.

[SPEAKER_01]: My heart did plummet to my butt and I was it was stressful however it was funny from an external perspective of the fact that

[SPEAKER_01]: But it is his scary like it's not a happy moment.

[SPEAKER_01]: No, it's not.

[SPEAKER_03]: And you like there were so many innocuous little moments you said to me like Oh, Fanny said notice or Thomas.

[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, Fanny said notice or Thomas.

[SPEAKER_03]: And he's now saying no saying notice or Thomas and in a big way.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_01]: Oh my god.

[SPEAKER_01]: Oh my god.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, and everything that he's about to say is like how dare you ever say no to me

[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, and again, there have been a lot of moments where I'm like, oh, and she stood up to him.

[SPEAKER_03]: You're like, yes, she stood up to Sir Thomas here, and it's like, oh, I want to go up to bed.

[SPEAKER_03]: Like, really little moments where you've been like, oh, my God, she's she declines and then from Sir Thomas, this is the moment she says no in earnest to Sir Thomas.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, about something.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so Sir Thomas can't comprehend this because Henry is a catch in every sense of the word.

[SPEAKER_01]: And she's friends with his sister and he has been really kind to William.

[SPEAKER_01]: So there's no reason for her not to like him and Fanny feels ashamed of herself for not liking him.

[SPEAKER_01]: He goes on to say, surely you've noticed that Henry Crawford has been giving you extra attention.

[SPEAKER_01]: And maybe you haven't been like all over him.

[SPEAKER_03]: I thought you were being proper and I liked that.

[SPEAKER_01]: I liked that you, I liked how you were receiving his attention.

[SPEAKER_03]: I thought you were appropriately playing hard to get.

[SPEAKER_01]: But you're telling me you didn't, like this is a surprise to you.

[SPEAKER_01]: You never indicated that his attentions were unpleasant to you.

[SPEAKER_01]: And that makes him think that maybe Fannie doesn't know her own feelings.

[SPEAKER_01]: And she's like, no, no, his attentions were always what I did not like.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think the phrasing there is kind of telling, I mean, it's telling on her, which is that it's not that his attentions were appalling to her.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's that they were not the thing that she likes, which is specifically her cousin.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it is not Edvin Bertram.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, which, you know, Sir Thomas then says, Oh my god, this part killed me.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I was just, oh my god.

[SPEAKER_01]: It almost killed Fanny too.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I felt this with her.

[SPEAKER_01]: So she says his attentions were what I did not like.

[SPEAKER_01]: And Sir Thomas is like, but you're so young.

[SPEAKER_01]: You hardly met anyone.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's hardly possible that you're affections.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then he cuts himself off.

[SPEAKER_01]: And he seems to wonder,

[SPEAKER_01]: If her affections are otherwise engaged to, he's like, wait, she's not met any men except my two sons.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, what men she met.

[SPEAKER_01]: So then he's like, oh, and he looks at her face and she's like, no, she looks so innocent.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, she can't have been in love already, but

[SPEAKER_01]: But so, Fanny is like, let me put up a mask of indifference, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, she's like, I'm just, stay as still as possible.

[SPEAKER_01]: And he's like, listen, independently of the fact that Henry wants to marry you, which I think is a good choice.

[SPEAKER_01]: I also approve of his desire to marry young.

[SPEAKER_01]: Now, that's, like, for my own son's, for example, Tom, that chip is sailed.

[SPEAKER_01]: He's not going to marry young.

[SPEAKER_01]: And he's gay.

[SPEAKER_01]: He's gay.

[SPEAKER_01]: So he can't marry anyway.

[SPEAKER_01]: But Edmund seems to have met a woman that he could love.

[SPEAKER_01]: Don't you think, Fanny?

[SPEAKER_01]: And Fanny says, yes, sir.

[SPEAKER_01]: She's not lying.

[SPEAKER_01]: Well, does she think that he could love her?

[SPEAKER_03]: She agrees with her uncle that he could love Mary Crawford and it's making her very sad.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_01]: This is a devastating question for him to ask.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yes, but she can answer it honestly.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_03]: She does not need to lie to him.

[SPEAKER_03]: No.

[SPEAKER_01]: So she says yes sir and He thinks few Glad we're not diving too deep into that one.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, he's like thank God.

[SPEAKER_01]: She's not in love with my son

[SPEAKER_01]: then back to why is she refusing this rich hands a man yeah because if she's not in love with my son then she has no reason to refuse him so this is this is just a disaster all around but she narrowly narrowly escaped him finding out about her love for her brother cousin yes cousin brother she's get it right under there

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, he then asks if she has a reason to think ill of Henry's temper, and she says no, but what she really wants to say is that she has a problem with his principles.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I have this thing.

[SPEAKER_03]: I think I've mentioned it on the podcast before, potentially, where I like to look, we categorize people into categories based on whether they're good people and whether they're pleasant to be around, which are two separate things.

[SPEAKER_03]: there's like a puddent square of different ways people can be.

[SPEAKER_03]: This is a bit of a tangent here, me out.

[SPEAKER_03]: I'm hearing you out.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: Um, so like option number one is that you meet someone and they are both really fun to talk to, very Amy of all, like a cool hang.

[SPEAKER_03]: And they are of good morals at the same time.

[SPEAKER_03]: So like let's use examples outside of minced filth park for all of this.

[SPEAKER_03]: Bingley.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: Bingley is a good example of this.

[SPEAKER_03]: Jane Bennett, great example as well.

[SPEAKER_01]: Lizzie Bennett.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yes, exactly.

[SPEAKER_03]: She's a fantastic king.

[SPEAKER_03]: And then on the other side, number four, people with poor morals and who are an excruciating hang that would be Elton.

[SPEAKER_03]: Elton is a great example.

[SPEAKER_03]: Elton and Mrs. Elton, the dust.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: And so you just, you cannot abide.

[SPEAKER_03]: Then you can hang around them.

[SPEAKER_03]: The, like, really great area in terms of spending your time with people, our numbers two and three.

[SPEAKER_03]: Number two is people who have good morals but are impossible to be around your Mr. Collins, for example, potentially.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's a mixed bag, but he's the closest I can think of off the top of my head.

[SPEAKER_01]: I would think, well, sure.

[SPEAKER_03]: And I think I miss his baits, miss baits, miss baits, is a good example of this.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Or even, I mean, like, panties kind of boring.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, exactly.

[SPEAKER_03]: Like, this is exactly what I'm talking about here.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: And then you have your phenomenal hang.

[SPEAKER_03]: This is the one that is talked about less phenomenal hang.

[SPEAKER_03]: Someone you really enjoy spending time with, who's not a good person.

[SPEAKER_01]: the Crawford.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's Mary Crawford and her Crawford.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, and what Fanny's saying here is like, no, I don't mind being around this person, but he's not good morally, but she can't say to her uncle why he's not good morally, because she doesn't want to betray her cousins, because she can't tell him that her cousin basmurched her own self when she was what engaged.

[SPEAKER_03]: Engaged.

[SPEAKER_01]: What's still in the scene to me is that nobody but Fanny noticed that and we talked about why?

[SPEAKER_03]: Why didn't anybody else notice?

[SPEAKER_01]: Because Henry was doing a good job of not being too public about it.

[SPEAKER_03]: They were holding their shit together in front of most people to an extent that wasn't like bad and embarrassing.

[SPEAKER_03]: Is it just because of the ha-ha that Fanny knew the ha-ha is the baseline for a lot of this, but a lot of this was stuff that just like Fanny caught non to because she was overlooked by the two of them while that was happening right right oh because they were holding it together in front of everyone but her.

[SPEAKER_01]: because they didn't need to think about her, right, right.

[SPEAKER_03]: And Fanny is also observant.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, because she's had to be.

[SPEAKER_03]: She sat in the background of every room, her whole life.

[SPEAKER_01]: Now, here's a question that we can cut if I sound stupid, but if Fanny's the only person who noticed and nothing happened is what he did so bad.

[SPEAKER_03]: Do you know why we know it's bad because Fanny thinks it's bad?

[SPEAKER_03]: No, not because Fanny thinks it's bad.

[SPEAKER_03]: Fanny's got to stick up her butt.

[SPEAKER_03]: Love her dearly, respect her choices.

[SPEAKER_03]: But no, it's because we get POV from other characters in this book.

[SPEAKER_03]: And we had Mariah's POV.

[SPEAKER_03]: And she was in love with him waiting for him to come for her.

[SPEAKER_03]: She was convinced that he was going to take her away from her fiance.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: And then he just up and left her.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's bad.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's bad.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's bad behavior.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: We're living in the past a little bit, but I think it's worth addressing because like right now quite honestly like, yes, it's hungry being manipulative.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's not really pushing too hard and funny.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yes, but he is not behaving in the way he did back then.

[SPEAKER_03]: No, because he's being serious.

[SPEAKER_03]: He's being serious.

[SPEAKER_03]: He has picked someone to love and someone he thinks will improve his character.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: He's picked someone based on thinking that she is a good person.

[SPEAKER_03]: The problem that we have is that she is not picking him back.

[SPEAKER_03]: Right.

[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_01]: That was a tangent.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_01]: No, that was a good tangent.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I like that scale.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's a fun way to think about the characters as well.

[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, yeah, it's a great scale.

[SPEAKER_03]: Well, Mansfield Park is living down at three in four.

[SPEAKER_03]: Like, people are not a fun hang in this bug.

[SPEAKER_01]: Mrs. Grant, but we haven't heard of her in months.

[SPEAKER_03]: And she's just like all like feeding her has been to the parish.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, the real question I think is like, who has proven morals here?

[SPEAKER_03]: And at this point, who has proven morals?

[SPEAKER_03]: Panny.

[SPEAKER_03]: And anybody else?

[SPEAKER_03]: Edmund, does he know?

[SPEAKER_01]: That's not living up to this moral.

[SPEAKER_01]: You're right, you know what I feel like.

[SPEAKER_01]: It hasn't proven that they have bad morals.

[SPEAKER_01]: is big tea.

[SPEAKER_01]: He bankrupt his brother.

[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, that, that's just that stuff.

[SPEAKER_03]: He's the reason Edmund doesn't have the parents.

[SPEAKER_03]: The gambling problem.

[SPEAKER_03]: He's actually like, if you want to like really tie this way together, we've been reading it for a long time.

[SPEAKER_03]: This is a good chapter to culminate some of this on.

[SPEAKER_03]: Big tea is the reason that Edmund's having such troubles marrying

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, because Mary lives in the parish house right now, it's a bigger nicer wealthier parish house than the one Edmund is set to get, which is a much more modest like, yes, she doesn't want to marry a rector generally, but it's a harder sell when you have less money and Edmund has less money because his brother was a vagrant in London.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, sorry.

[SPEAKER_01]: I just wanted someone to be a good hang and a good person.

[SPEAKER_01]: Fanny is the closest we've got right now.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, unfortunate, but listen, we love our girl.

[SPEAKER_01]: We love our girl.

[SPEAKER_01]: Anyway, so obviously she can't tell him about the Miranda and Julia thing.

[SPEAKER_01]: So she hopes that her telling Sir Thomas that she doesn't like Henry will be enough for him to accept her decision.

[SPEAKER_01]: But quote to her infinite grief, it is not, it is not enough devastating.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then we get a page and a half of Sir Thomas ripping Fanny to shreds.

[SPEAKER_01]: Let's go to that in the book.

[SPEAKER_03]: So like there is a lot to go through here.

[SPEAKER_03]: We can summarize and then we'll like go through a couple of quotes.

[SPEAKER_03]: I want to go through maybe that's a good way to go back.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I can summarize it in a couple of sentences.

[SPEAKER_01]: Essentially, he says, I see this is of no use.

[SPEAKER_01]: You are not the woman I thought you had become.

[SPEAKER_01]: Essentially, he tells her, I thought that you were not one of those disgusting, headstrong, independent women that are the fashion nowadays.

[SPEAKER_01]: I thought that you were an obedient person, and I can't believe that you are trying to make your own decisions about this.

[SPEAKER_01]: you're never going to get another proposal like Henry Crawford.

[SPEAKER_01]: You are selfish and ungrateful.

[SPEAKER_01]: Aren't thinking of your family and the money that this could provide for them?

[SPEAKER_01]: How dare you you disgusting person?

[SPEAKER_01]: Like that's the long and short of it.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but there's there's a lot that happens within that.

[SPEAKER_03]: So I want to take it sort of beat by beat.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, a little bit because I think it is an incredibly important passage for the story, honestly.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: So it starts with basically I'm not doing this anymore with you.

[SPEAKER_03]: I've left him waiting.

[SPEAKER_03]: You have, quote, disappointed every expectation I had formed and proved yourself of a character, the very reverse of what I have supposed.

[SPEAKER_03]: So, you have disappointed every expectation.

[SPEAKER_03]: Let's say expectation is a very important starting point.

[SPEAKER_01]: The expectation was that she was going to work her way up in the world, like move up in the world, right?

[SPEAKER_03]: And yeah, and not only he's, he's like thrilled with Henry as a fine to for her, and it's so much better than that.

[SPEAKER_03]: But he had intended to try to find her someone, because otherwise he was stuck with her forever.

[SPEAKER_03]: He was going to have to feed her his whole life.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so this is also coming from a point of selfishness from him.

[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: This is what I want to highlight here is that this is tied to those conversations he had with Ant Norris in the first chapter of the book.

[SPEAKER_03]: What a dick.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: Then he says of Fanny's behavior.

[SPEAKER_03]: I had thought you particularly free from willfulness of temper or self-conceite and every tendency to that independence of spirit, which prevails so much in modern days, even in young women, and in which in young women is offensive and disgusting beyond all common events.

[SPEAKER_01]: The fact that he is just putting it out there that he hates a woman who didn't thank for herself or who thinks so highly of her own opinion, that she would follow her own opinion without asking for permission or for a man's opinion, he hates that so much and he's so unafraid to say it, is scary.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, and it's how a lot of people think about young women today, and I want to hold this quote, particularly, because this is funny is not like these other girls, hashtag not like other girls, she is everything a conservative father could want.

[SPEAKER_01]: Right, like her entire life, she's done what she's told.

[SPEAKER_03]: She is like sweet, very beholden to her morals, very obliging, obedient, obedient in all those horrible things in the moment, she steps it online for like a second.

[SPEAKER_03]: This is thrown on our face.

[SPEAKER_03]: And this doesn't feel to me like a Jane Austen era thing.

[SPEAKER_01]: also to like she's not stepping out of line to she is stepping out of line in his mind.

[SPEAKER_03]: This is what I'm trying to say.

[SPEAKER_03]: There is who fan he is.

[SPEAKER_03]: There is what Jane Austen thinks, which is

[SPEAKER_03]: separate, yes, entirely.

[SPEAKER_03]: And there is what Sir Thomas is saying, which in my personal opinion, I find Sir Thomas to be kind of, as you can tell, a pouring in this moment.

[SPEAKER_03]: And I think he is spouting something that I hear from Elder Gentleman now a day.

[SPEAKER_03]: And some older ladies too,

[SPEAKER_03]: It's the men.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's mostly the men.

[SPEAKER_03]: And not only is Fannie just about as reliable and sweet a conservative little girl as you could possibly want, I find the frame horrifying and the very existence of the frame itself horrifying.

[SPEAKER_03]: But I think it's important.

[SPEAKER_03]: And I think it's a framework that Stratomas is trying to fit around everybody.

[SPEAKER_03]: And quite honestly, who does fit this description?

[SPEAKER_03]: Mary Mary Mary.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's a description.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: She's she's the headstrong like self-contained health.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, he's actually laid in girl.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: Anyway, so that I think is an really important quote for us to hold on to as we look at Fanny's behavior here her behavior at this point in the book and the expectations or Thomas is putting on his family and the moral framework he fences them all in with.

[SPEAKER_01]: But it's it's so funny and flimsy.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's, yeah, it's flungsy and it's funny because no one else in his family aside from Edmund fits in his moral framework.

[SPEAKER_01]: Even Edmund, even Edmund, but like, at least Edmund is Edmund's aware of it.

[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah, like he has many nobles fucking up.

[SPEAKER_03]: Edmund feels an obligation to follow it.

[SPEAKER_03]: Right.

[SPEAKER_03]: Edmund still did the fucking play.

[SPEAKER_03]: Edmund still did the play.

[SPEAKER_03]: Edmund still did the fucking play.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I didn't do the play.

[SPEAKER_01]: Fanny Price.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: Fanny Price insisted.

[SPEAKER_03]: The last time Fanny Price insisted on something

[SPEAKER_03]: was when she refused to be in the fucking place.

[SPEAKER_03]: This is infuriating.

[SPEAKER_03]: It is infuriating, but it's been, we've been building to this chapter.

[SPEAKER_03]: Have the entire book.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I want a soap box out.

[SPEAKER_03]: This is like, to me, this is the meat of the book.

[SPEAKER_03]: Right, you're this monologue in particular.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: So then he goes on to talk about how she is being selfish and he goes for the jugular of why she's being selfish and he says the advantage or disadvantage of your family of your parents, your brothers and sisters never seems to have had a moment share in your thoughts on this occasion how they might be benefited how they must rejoice in such an establishment of you is nothing to you.

[SPEAKER_01]: On the one hand, sure, it would have been great for them, but on the other hand, what he is not saying is that all of you are going to continue to be my burden.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, he's saying why you could have made them all Henry Crawford's problem.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, there's his problem.

[SPEAKER_03]: There's his problem.

[SPEAKER_03]: There's his fucking problem.

[SPEAKER_03]: He's not doing a great job of taking care of anybody except Fanny and William and to be fair to him.

[SPEAKER_03]: William, partially at the best of Henry Crawford, a hundred percent of the best of Henry Crawford is now in a position to maybe feed his family.

[SPEAKER_03]: And you want to know who didn't do that?

[SPEAKER_03]: Sort on this.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, sort on this.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, but I think this to me, like again, we're going to the economics, dating, and genostin, grandness, sound effect, and we are going

[SPEAKER_03]: to the pressure that sits on fanny.

[SPEAKER_03]: When we talked about this with Henry, you might recall when Henry and Mary were talking about it and then when we saw Henry propose, I said many times, it would never occur to them that fanny would refuse this.

[SPEAKER_03]: That's why.

[SPEAKER_03]: Because she's in a position where she might feel the need to sell herself off to a bitter to feed a family.

[SPEAKER_03]: has enough self-worth in this moment to say as much as I care about feeding my family, as much as I care about other people in my life.

[SPEAKER_03]: I cannot time myself to a man.

[SPEAKER_03]: I fundamentally think is wrong for me and I cannot shackle myself to him.

[SPEAKER_03]: And Matt Ramoney, just to make everybody else in my life happy.

[SPEAKER_03]: And that is in its own right, especially for a girl from such a poor family who has been raised her whole life to be told that our economic situation is at the behest of people who are just generous to her, a pretty big self-worth moment, yeah, despite not being a fun hang.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, it's not even just a romantic because I think if she found him acceptable of morals, she should be considering him.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's not that she doesn't love him.

[SPEAKER_03]: Part of it is that she loves Edmund her cousin crush is shielding her here.

[SPEAKER_03]: But what she says is she doubts his principles.

[SPEAKER_03]: She thinks he's a bad man.

[SPEAKER_03]: And she doesn't want to be married off to a bad man.

[SPEAKER_03]: And we can have a long discussion about how correct she is about whether or not he's a bad man.

[SPEAKER_03]: The story has not answered that.

[SPEAKER_03]: And Henry Crawford clearly wants to improve his own character here.

[SPEAKER_03]: But that's why she's refusing him in a large part.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Anyway, while we're going line by line, I wanted to read this next part.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_01]: He says, you think only of yourself, which, by the way, is a blow, all of this is a blow, but particularly because all her life, she's been told, be grateful, be grateful, be grateful, be grateful.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: And she is always grateful and never thinks of herself.

[SPEAKER_01]: Anyway, he says, you think only of yourself.

[SPEAKER_01]: And because you do not feel for Mr. Crawford, exactly what a young he did fancy, imagines to be necessary for happiness.

[SPEAKER_01]: you resolve to refuse him at once without wishing even for a little time to consider of it, a little more time for cool consideration, and for really examining your own inclinations, and are in a wild fit of folly, throwing away from you such an opportunity of being settled in life, allegedly honorably nobly settled, as will probably never occur to you again.

[SPEAKER_03]: as we'll probably never occur to you again.

[SPEAKER_03]: First of all, the belittling, the belittling of her, not knowing her own self and feelings, Hembing like because you don't think immediately that he's Prince Charming, you've decided that he's nothing to you, and it's like, no, it's because I think he is a bad man.

[SPEAKER_03]: Right.

[SPEAKER_01]: But he doesn't know her well enough.

[SPEAKER_01]: He hasn't taken the time to get to know her well enough to know her thoughts.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, to be fair to us, her Thomas, for only a millisecond.

[SPEAKER_03]: He's not wrong that this is an opportunity that was not likely for Fanny to achieve.

[SPEAKER_03]: And that is not likely to come round again.

[SPEAKER_03]: sure but also how rude to say that but she's she knows this of course she knows that she's aware of her circumstances the very fact of the matter is that Fini is aware of all of the she is not an idiot and she is still trying to refuse him because she knows her own mind it's like oh my god i'm probably gonna end up cutting this because i don't know if i'm going to

[SPEAKER_01]: fairy tale or like some sort of fantasy story where there is a poor family or like a rich family with a poor wench or whatever.

[SPEAKER_01]: And she's like some evil man has come to take her off their hands.

[SPEAKER_01]: And she's like, no, no, I don't want to go.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't want to go.

[SPEAKER_03]: This is a quarterth worth of roses.

[SPEAKER_01]: you're furious with me because I'm right.

[SPEAKER_01]: Is that what happens in the first book because it's really long time?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that is what happens in the first book.

[SPEAKER_01]: All right, so listeners, I have to admit something.

[SPEAKER_01]: As we all know, I read the first quarter of Furns and Rose's book and I hated it so much and I was like, I'm never going to continue that journey.

[SPEAKER_01]: And after like a year of denying it, I have continued the journey and I am enjoying it.

[SPEAKER_03]: How far into Mr. and Furrier are you?

[SPEAKER_01]: 34 percent.

[SPEAKER_03]: I meant substantively.

[SPEAKER_01]: Oh.

[SPEAKER_01]: Um, what is happening?

[SPEAKER_01]: So, Fera is in Valaris with Reson.

[SPEAKER_01]: Reson, got to hate myself.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and she suddenly left Tamlyn a while ago and is like, I'm never going back there and now she's with him.

[SPEAKER_01]: And they are about to go hunt for the cauldron or the book.

[SPEAKER_01]: to counteract the cauldron.

[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, yeah, I won't say anything else, but I tried to tell you, I was like, listen, they're not great, but no, it's so bad, but now I am, but she is a much better writer after the first one.

[SPEAKER_03]: I would say that the writing is still kind of manned.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I'd agree with that, but the first is exactly mad.

[SPEAKER_01]: Really, really bad.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Um, anyway, okay.

[SPEAKER_01]: Sorry to do that at like the, uh, both two point of this.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: I was going to say with the reading of like a break in the tension, but yeah, I want to end, um, going through Sir Thomas's crash out here on the last line.

[SPEAKER_03]: Mm-hmm.

[SPEAKER_03]: Sir Thomas talks about the fact that, uh, he would have happily handed off, hit one of his daughters to Henry Crawford, not Mariah, because she's quote, nobly married law.

[SPEAKER_03]: Well, but he would have said yes to Julia if that had been Henry's choice.

[SPEAKER_03]: and he would have done so happily, but the fact that it's fanny, who he would didn't have the hopes of a good match for, it's like even more unbelievable to him.

[SPEAKER_03]: And he says to fanny to sort of like end his rant, and I should have been very much surprised to head either of my daughters on receiving a proposal of marriage at any time, which might carry with it only half the eligibility of this.

[SPEAKER_03]: immediately and preemptorally and without paying my opinion or my regard the complement of any consultation put a decided negative on it.

[SPEAKER_03]: I should have been much surprised and much hurt by such a proceeding.

[SPEAKER_03]: I should have thought it a gross violation of duty in respect.

[SPEAKER_03]: And then he says this, and I think this is key.

[SPEAKER_03]: You are not to be judged by the same rule.

[SPEAKER_03]: You do not only the duty of a child, but Fanny, if your heart can equip you of in gratitude.

[SPEAKER_03]: And then he cuts himself off because Fanny is sobbing, but he ends on the word in gratitude.

[SPEAKER_03]: because once again, we are reminded that Fanny Price has to at all times be grateful for her position, because it was bestowed on her as a gift.

[SPEAKER_03]: And she shouldn't have it.

[SPEAKER_03]: She should be sitting in a hovelinport Smith.

[SPEAKER_01]: And you see that she is sobbing and you're telling her to you're begging her for her heart to acquit her of in gratitude to like release her from in gratitude to be grateful.

[SPEAKER_03]: This is why I really focused in on what Mrs. Norris says to her when they are doing the play in Fanny refuses.

[SPEAKER_03]: When she says to her, you're ungrateful and then Fanny starts crying in front of everybody because that's what Sardom says saying now, you are ungrateful for what I have given you.

[SPEAKER_03]: The only thing that I've asked for you, I've given you everything, I've fed you, I've closed you, I've raised you up in society, you've gotten this man's attention.

[SPEAKER_03]: All of us as you be grateful for what I've given you.

[SPEAKER_03]: For taking away from you away from your silly mother and your your poor, drunk father.

[SPEAKER_03]: And poor Fanny, who is herself?

[SPEAKER_03]: inclined to be grateful all the time.

[SPEAKER_03]: All the time who has been spending the last eight years of her life terrified that anyone will think she's ungrateful or that she will take ownership of Mansfield's park in a way that is improper is just following a part in front of him as he says all this to act like she lives there would be too much.

[SPEAKER_03]: Exactly.

[SPEAKER_03]: Well, that's what's that's what's been interesting about volume the second is that you see Sir Thomas over and over again gently push her towards feeling at home there.

[SPEAKER_03]: He throws her a ball.

[SPEAKER_03]: He makes sure she gets a carriage.

[SPEAKER_03]: He basically sends her to dinner at the grants and it's like, no, that makes sense.

[SPEAKER_03]: They want to honor my niece.

[SPEAKER_03]: He's giving her this place and the family.

[SPEAKER_03]: and it's conditional and playing by his rules.

[SPEAKER_01]: And why does he do any of that?

[SPEAKER_01]: Like why did he start to do that with me?

[SPEAKER_01]: Because he saw a possibility of getting her a husband or was it

[SPEAKER_03]: Well, we've talked about it a lot like why Sir Thomas is suddenly taking this interest in vanny.

[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, I guess we have we've named a couple of things like him coming home.

[SPEAKER_01]: We talked about him coming home and seeing her as part of England and him being like, yeah, I yes, my home, which Annie's part of that.

[SPEAKER_03]: And I mean, there's a couple of things on that note, this separates her from him again, because he was pulling her into being even more

[SPEAKER_03]: And she said, no, no, no, no, I don't want that.

[SPEAKER_03]: And that puts her on the other side of the battle again.

[SPEAKER_03]: He's separating her by class in the past talking here.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yep.

[SPEAKER_01]: He was also replacing his daughters with her in a way.

[SPEAKER_03]: and neither of his daughters was ever so openly and subordinate with him, which is just crazy.

[SPEAKER_03]: Crazy.

[SPEAKER_03]: Because they just fucking lied.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, and he didn't have the same expectations of his daughter.

[SPEAKER_03]: He wanted them to marry well, but he would have given them more choice in the matter.

[SPEAKER_03]: See his conversation with Mariah about whether she really wanted to marry Rushworth.

[SPEAKER_03]: Oh yeah, they get more choice in this matter.

[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, that pisses me off.

[SPEAKER_01]: I forgot about that conversation.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: He was like, are you sure because it seems like you don't like him and Fanny is telling him now that she doesn't like him.

[SPEAKER_03]: And he says you ungrateful little snit.

[SPEAKER_03]: That's fucked up.

[SPEAKER_03]: And in all of that, he noticed the attentions of Henry Crawford and saw an opportunity to raise Fanny up in the world and then that will have been his good deed full circle completed.

[SPEAKER_03]: He would be happy to see her well settled and he would have truly risen her up to his class level.

[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, not exactly because they're not nobility, but you know what I mean.

[SPEAKER_01]: But it's not coming out of a place of love for Fanny.

[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, there's a question of whether or not there's a faction for Fanny.

[SPEAKER_03]: It is true that she is dispositionally exactly what he likes in a young girl.

[SPEAKER_03]: And she is a woman of good principles and he was seeing some of that.

[SPEAKER_03]: But it's all conditional.

[SPEAKER_03]: These emotions come with strings attached.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, so it's not out of like sheer abstract hatred for Fanny or like complete unfailing towards her, but it's all tied up in this transactional nature of their relationship, yeah, which is that I fed you and clothing for years, the least you can do is marry the

[SPEAKER_01]: So he stops because Fannie is sobbing and she's like I'm so sorry.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm so sorry and he's like yeah you better be sorry and I think you will be sorry for a long time and she's like I would have said yes if I could but I know that I could never make him happy and that I would be miserable.

[SPEAKER_01]: Now, despite the fact that she says she would be miserable and despite the fact that she is literally sobbing, I think the fact that she says, I would have said yes if I could, sparks a little hope in Sir Thomas because he thinks, hmm, maybe if Henry persevere's, and she hears this from Henry herself, she might change her mind.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yes, and he also sees how gentle and sweet and how,

[SPEAKER_03]: receptive she is to criticism yeah if if you yell at me i'm gonna cry which means you can kind of believe her into things which we know is true of any generally ultimately she kind of does take a role in the play like very briefly yeah that is true

[SPEAKER_01]: So he tells her to stop crying and come with him and tell Henry that he misunderstood her sentiments and she doesn't love him and she's not going to marry him because he's like, I'm not going to do that for you.

[SPEAKER_01]: But then he looks at her and decides maybe it would be better if Henry didn't see her like this because she looks bad and so he leaves her to cry alone.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I think that that is my funniest moment of the chapter where he's like, oh, man, I can't leave him hanging at out there in the new season and she's got like, not dribbling and she's like, you know, if he sees her like this, he might not think she's cute anymore.

[SPEAKER_03]: So let's leave that at that.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's tough.

[SPEAKER_01]: She is heartbroken over this whole thing.

[SPEAKER_01]: Nothing I mean to do with Henry, of course, but she's heartbroken over having lost certain as his favorite.

[SPEAKER_01]: And she wishes the Edmund were there.

[SPEAKER_01]: But at the same time, she's also like, would Edmund think the same thing?

[SPEAKER_01]: What do you think that I'm ungrateful?

[SPEAKER_01]: What do you?

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean,

[SPEAKER_01]: He hasn't proven to me that he wouldn't because there was a moment early on where he told her that she was being a grateful for something.

[SPEAKER_03]: She didn't want to go live with Aunt Norris.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, yes, yes, thank you.

[SPEAKER_01]: That was it.

[SPEAKER_01]: So with that as the proof, all I can say is that I do think

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but also she is mad at Henry for all of this and now she's worried that he really loves her and is suffering and that will fall.

[SPEAKER_01]: She's like shit.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm mad at him and also am I breaking his heart?

[SPEAKER_01]: Just everything way or on top of itself to make.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, now she's like let like empath challenge 101.

[SPEAKER_03]: Like I feel bad for the guy who I refuse because I think he's a bad person.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, this is a tough situation to be in

[SPEAKER_01]: So 15 minutes later, Sir Thomas comes back up and tells her that Henry is gone and I do want to note that he said that Henry left upon my representation of what you were suffering.

[SPEAKER_01]: And he agreed to go away just for now.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I don't think that Sir Thomas accurately represented what he was suffering.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's my prediction.

[SPEAKER_01]: So we'll see if he actually told him that he

[SPEAKER_01]: He says that there is the probability that Henry is going to want to talk to her probably tomorrow when she's calm down.

[SPEAKER_01]: So, dry your tears, go for a walk and never mention this to anyone.

[SPEAKER_01]: He says, let's not talk to your aunts about this.

[SPEAKER_01]: And Fanny is very unbored with that plan, because she does not want to see Mrs. Norris and does not want to be yelled at,

[SPEAKER_01]: about this.

[SPEAKER_01]: Nope.

[SPEAKER_01]: She said she would rather see Henry again than suffer Mrs. Norris's opinion.

[SPEAKER_01]: So she goes for a walk just like he suggested thinking like okay I'll do what he says and she's trying to pull herself together so that Mrs. Norris won't ask her what's wrong at dinner.

[SPEAKER_01]: But when she gets back to the east room, there's a fire going.

[SPEAKER_01]: There is a fire going.

[SPEAKER_01]: And

[SPEAKER_01]: This just sends her into a tizzy because she's like after all that he still got the fire going like I must really be an ungrateful bastard.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and so she's just all wrecked again like and it's it I'm like what why did he still get the fire going.

[SPEAKER_03]: We're going to ask them study questions.

[SPEAKER_01]: We're going to talk about it.

[SPEAKER_01]: We'll talk about it later then.

[SPEAKER_01]: So at dinner.

[SPEAKER_01]: Sir Thomas is acting normal.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if this means normal like he has been acting around her or normal like before.

[SPEAKER_03]: I think how he has been acting like cordial and like treating her like what are the family.

[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_01]: Mrs. Norris however still has something to be mad at her for because any any went for a walk without telling her and she was like, I wanted you to do some errands for me.

[SPEAKER_01]: She's like, I ended up having to go all the way to my house.

[SPEAKER_01]: to give my servant an order, which you could have carried out for me.

[SPEAKER_01]: Had I known that you were on a walk?

[SPEAKER_01]: How dare you?

[SPEAKER_01]: It would make no difference to you if you're walking in the shrubbery or on the path to my house.

[SPEAKER_01]: And Sir Thomas is like, well, actually, I told her to go in the shrubbery because it was the driest path.

[SPEAKER_01]: And she's like, well,

[SPEAKER_01]: the path to my house is dry.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then Mrs. Norris says, but Fanny has always liked to go her own way and she doesn't like to be told what to do.

[SPEAKER_01]: Always taking an independent walk, quote, she has a spirit of secrecy and independence and nonsense.

[SPEAKER_01]: Essentially saying all the same things that Sir Thomas just said right, but Sir Thomas thinks that's an unfair reflection of Fanny in general, except, except spent the last half hour blaring that shit at her yeah and this is an interesting moment, because obviously he just he doesn't say anything he just changes the subject, but for him to internally be like when he hears someone else saying it to be like wait a minute, that's not accurate.

[SPEAKER_01]: Oh wait.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's what I just said.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, obviously he's not going to turn to her in a apologizing this moment.

[SPEAKER_01]: But I wonder if he will have any further self reflection and talk to her and be like, I mean, like, I don't think he will.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I don't think he'll be like, oh, I heard Mrs. Norris saying that it didn't ring true.

[SPEAKER_01]: And obviously, I just said all of that and more and I'm sorry.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, that would be really cool.

[SPEAKER_01]: But I don't think that's going to happen.

[SPEAKER_01]: But it's interesting that he was like, oh, where enough to be like, hey, wait a minute and then be like, oh, wait a minute.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know what I mean?

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it is, he's got, he's up to mines on Fannie.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, anyway, Mrs. Norris continues to just yell at Fannie, talk at Fannie is what the book says for half the dinner.

[SPEAKER_01]: But after Mrs. Norris stops her nonsense, Fannie feels a little bit more cheerful.

[SPEAKER_01]: and feels like she did the right thing in turning down Mr. Crawford and maybe Sir Thomas will come around eventually when he realizes what a terrible thing it would be to marry without affection, which we know he knows it is because he said to Mariah, are you sure you want a marry, Mr. Rushworth, you don't seem to like him very much, but that's another story.

[SPEAKER_01]: The next day, when Fanny does not get an invitation to go meet Henry, she thinks maybe she's dodged

[SPEAKER_01]: So she's like, okay, he's going to get over me so fast in London, like there's women go lower down there.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's going to be fine.

[SPEAKER_01]: She thinks that he will be thankful for quote, the right reason in her, which had saved him from its evil consequences, it being his affection, essentially thinking he's going to feel like he dodged a bullet.

[SPEAKER_01]: Which is sad that she thinks so little of herself, but also makes me think, okay, a big like the main reason that she feels like she needed to say no aside from thinking that he's a bad person like the biggest part of it is that she doesn't think that she would make him happy anyway.

[SPEAKER_01]: Sir Thomas wants to speak to you in his room and she starts panicking and she gets up to go and Mrs. Norris gets up as well and is like definitely not he wants to speak to me and she's like you were so presumptuous yet how dare you when he comes in and says Miss Price he wants to talk to you how dare you stand up obviously he meant Mrs. Norris

[SPEAKER_01]: This is my other funniest quote, so I'll probably stick with this, which is like, it's definitely me not use sit down.

[SPEAKER_01]: And Fanny is like, uh, okay, and then the Butler is like, no, he definitely asked for Ms. Price, and then he gives her a look that's like, I don't think Mrs. Norris will do the trick for like what he's asking for or something.

[SPEAKER_01]: We didn't say that out loud.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I love the under the skin way.

[SPEAKER_03]: We haven't really been tracking them, but the servants fucking hate Mrs. Norris.

[SPEAKER_01]: I know it's incredible.

[SPEAKER_03]: Every time the servants interact with Mrs. Norris, you get like another snippet of how they feel about her.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, the exact quote is, and there was a half smile with the words which meant, I do not think you would answer to the purpose at all.

[SPEAKER_01]: The purpose being that Henry Crawford is back.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, and not into Mrs. Morris.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then we covered his famously not into Mrs. Morris.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: So anyway, Fanny follows him and

[SPEAKER_01]: finds herself face-to-face with Henry Crawford alone.

[SPEAKER_01]: And the current falls, and the current falls.

[SPEAKER_01]: Because that's the end of the chapter.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yep.

[SPEAKER_03]: Can't remember what I thought we would do two chapters of these two.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I know that would have been a seven hour long episode.

[SPEAKER_03]: That brings us to the study questions.

[SPEAKER_03]: First, we're going to do the Patron Study Questions.

[SPEAKER_03]: Listeners, if you want to ask a study questions on air, you can become a patron at our $15 tier on Patreon.

[SPEAKER_03]: And then Molly will submit a Google Doc to you guys.

[SPEAKER_03]: You can submit your questions, and we will answer them.

[SPEAKER_03]: So Jeanay asks, we know why she doesn't, but what do you think might have happened if any told her uncle the real reason she didn't want to marry Mr. Crawford?

[SPEAKER_03]: How do you think Sir Thomas would have responded?

[SPEAKER_03]: Would he have believed her or trusted her judgment?

[SPEAKER_01]: Mm, good question.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm inclined to say he would not have believed her.

[SPEAKER_01]: Because we talked about this a little bit, but nobody but Fanny not lost or saw.

[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, Mary saw, but she's not going to like cop to it.

[SPEAKER_01]: No, of course not.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I think that it would have gone

[SPEAKER_01]: Over poorly he would have been like how dare you slender my daughters like that and it if I think it would have just like Stacked on to fannies Slights against him But I do think

[SPEAKER_01]: That because he is of two minds and a fanny, he might have later reflected on it and there might be some like oh shit was she right, but in the moment, I don't think that would have gone over well and I don't think it would have changed his opinion about Mr. Crawford.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it's a serious accusation, especially if you put in the context of like what you hear, Sir Thomas saying to fanny about where she is in the world.

[SPEAKER_03]: I can't help but read a little bit of compassion for Mariah into it from Fannie, totally.

[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, I think you are right.

[SPEAKER_03]: There's a self preservation aspect to it, but it feels like she's afraid of what will happen to Mariah if this gets out.

[SPEAKER_01]: Well, yeah, I think that is why she doesn't.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: I totally think that's why she doesn't.

[SPEAKER_03]: And imagine what Sir Thomas would say if he did believe Fannie.

[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I didn't even consider if he did believe her.

[SPEAKER_01]: But I imagine he would get rid of Henry Crawford, but I don't think it would have helped Fanny's cause.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think he would have been mad at Fanny.

[SPEAKER_01]: And it would have tried to stop her from spreading that rumor because he's going to protect his daughters at all costs.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think so he would want that to be like shut down and quiet it up.

[SPEAKER_01]: and maybe a lot of money would go into quieting it up and like that part of Henry Crawford like pay him off to go away.

[SPEAKER_01]: Or something?

[SPEAKER_03]: What do you think I'm gonna do?

[SPEAKER_01]: Neither confirmed or not.

[SPEAKER_03]: I confirmed or denied.

[SPEAKER_03]: All right.

[SPEAKER_03]: So, Avi asks, how do the events of this chapter shape your view of Fanny does the refusal to break signify a change or is it something that was there all along?

[SPEAKER_01]: I think we kind of touched on this, but it's worth talking about.

[SPEAKER_01]: is a romantic, who will not marry without love.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think we already knew that.

[SPEAKER_01]: I also think that

[SPEAKER_01]: it does signify something that is there all along which is her steadfast morals.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, what you were saying before is true.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like she doesn't want to marry him because she thinks he's a bad man and she doesn't want to compromise on her morals.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like she's compromised on her morals once before with the play.

[SPEAKER_03]: Not even really, but not even.

[SPEAKER_01]: It was like at the very very end.

[SPEAKER_03]: The play is sort of

[SPEAKER_01]: Right, which was like she said no, no, no, no.

[SPEAKER_01]: At the end, she was bullied into coming on stage, but she didn't end up having to do the play and she didn't choose to do the play.

[SPEAKER_01]: She's the only one who didn't.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so we know that she can stand her ground when she really believes in something.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, Fanny is a pliable character about things that are light.

[SPEAKER_01]: Things that don't matter, but she's not she's a pliable character about things that have nothing to do with morals Like ask her to go run an errand for you and she'll do it.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, she's not a pushover when it comes to her own principles Compare that to a couple other characters here.

[SPEAKER_03]: I've been Edmund's is the one that really comes to mind isn't he?

[SPEAKER_03]: Yes, he's got those same morals.

[SPEAKER_03]: He hasn't married Mary Crawford yet

[SPEAKER_03]: nobody did act in the play.

[SPEAKER_03]: He did act in the play, chose to be in that play.

[SPEAKER_03]: And he has been filling back and forth about whether or not to be with Mary Crawford.

[SPEAKER_03]: And every time his morals versus his horny on Maine, horny on Maine wins out, tends to.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, that concludes our patron study questions.

[SPEAKER_03]: We're going to go into the Becca study questions now.

[SPEAKER_03]: How does the relationship between

[SPEAKER_03]: It's broken.

[SPEAKER_03]: Is it?

[SPEAKER_03]: I think it's back to what it was before that he was normal a dinner.

[SPEAKER_01]: He was normal a dinner and the fire was there and the fire was there Good point good point good point.

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so here's the thing he did leave their encounter after absolutely demolishing her He left thinking Maybe they're still hope that she'll change her mind because If we yell at her she'll cry

[SPEAKER_01]: And if Henry talks to her again with his smooth talking ways, maybe she'll change her mind, he thinks that she doesn't know her own feelings well enough to know how she feels about him.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I think there is hope for their relationship in his mind.

[SPEAKER_01]: Fanny feels like she has failed him in every way.

[SPEAKER_01]: She's not mad at him, she is mad at herself, which is text book emotional manipulation, but I think that any friendship that had built between them, even though he got her the fire and was normal at dinner, I think that something is broken after you yell at someone like that.

[SPEAKER_01]: I also think that it's possible that he's using the fire

[SPEAKER_01]: as a point of leverage, like I'm still going to continue doing things for you.

[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe you'll continue doing things for me.

[SPEAKER_03]: What do you think will be the result of this mismatch?

[SPEAKER_03]: You really are articulated how they both walked away from the conversation, which is Sir Thomas being like, oh, I saw how pliable she can be.

[SPEAKER_03]: I can see how deeply she feels.

[SPEAKER_03]: There's room for me to push her into this.

[SPEAKER_03]: And Fannie left the conversation like, thank God, he's relented a little bit.

[SPEAKER_03]: I can breathe.

[SPEAKER_03]: I've refused him and Sir Thomas will have to deal with it at some point, but clearly he's letting me do my thing.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yep, which is shattered when at the end of the chapter he says Henry coffers here.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yep, essentially.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yep.

[SPEAKER_03]: So what do you think it will be the result of that mismatch?

[SPEAKER_01]: I wonder if it'll make her...

[SPEAKER_01]: get smaller, you know, like make her regress into her old ways of like never talking back and always doing what he asks or on the flip side if there's a possibility that she saw that she stood up to him and they still were able to continue on as normal.

[SPEAKER_01]: Will she think that like maybe she can continue standing up to him.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't think that's.

[SPEAKER_01]: super likely based on how much she was crying but at the same time she felt like he's still giving me the fire and he's still acting normal and I think maybe there's a chance that he's going to come around to my way of thinking and see that it's a terrible thing to marry without love so maybe there's a possibility that she will

[SPEAKER_01]: It'll embolden her to continue to ask for what she wants and like take up space.

[SPEAKER_01]: But I feel like it's more likely that we're going to get quiet and meet Fanny price back.

[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: Another thing on a posit on this sort of conversation just to go back briefly to how their relationship changed.

[SPEAKER_03]: There's a way in which it changes here.

[SPEAKER_03]: So, a way which it doesn't change.

[SPEAKER_03]: And the conversation merely exposes some of the dysfunction and rot at the core of the dynamic.

[SPEAKER_03]: That's true.

[SPEAKER_03]: Because they go back to normal.

[SPEAKER_03]: afterwards.

[SPEAKER_03]: And it didn't happen.

[SPEAKER_03]: And it's because in his mind, he's found a way to justify this and fix the dynamic.

[SPEAKER_03]: And in her mind, she's found a way to justify this and fix the dynamic.

[SPEAKER_03]: And so he's got a dinner.

[SPEAKER_03]: He defends her against Aunt Norris, even in his own braid.

[SPEAKER_03]: The fire is going in the room, but at the end of the day, when he found out that she was probably going to disobey him about

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, the power dynamic is very and balanced.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, like he holds a lot of power over her and his masculineity is very fragile.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so the minute he's threatened with this obeying his power he explodes.

[SPEAKER_03]: I'm the man of the house.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I have, I hold this house to certain moral standards and principles.

[SPEAKER_03]: I have given you everything that you could never have had without me, you will obey.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then when she submits and cries and is wrecked, he says, good, yeah, as you were.

[SPEAKER_03]: Well, what he says is, ooh.

[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, well, she's crying a lot now and the way she says this makes me think I can push her to do it and I won't have all this crying this crying is too much.

[SPEAKER_03]: I don't want to make her upset.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, let's go on with the day and then we'll come back to this tomorrow.

[SPEAKER_03]: And on that, the fire starts the chapter and ends the chapter.

[SPEAKER_03]: Mm-hmm.

[SPEAKER_03]: So what do you make of that circle?

[SPEAKER_01]: The fire has been a player in this book the whole time.

[SPEAKER_01]: And every time I've been like it's interesting how she apologizes for their not being a fire.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I've known that it was Mrs. Norris who said they're gonna allow it.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, they're can't be a fire.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, basically like it's been the symbol of her having this little fucking Cinderella loft, but it doesn't have basic comforts and it started with him seeing that she didn't have those and when they were still on very good terms or good terms in their way, he was like, well, this is a misunderstanding, of course you should have a fire.

[SPEAKER_03]: And now he's like, listen, you need time to figure out things on your own.

[SPEAKER_03]: In the meantime, I'm going to make you happy.

[SPEAKER_03]: Look what you can have if you're still part of my family.

[SPEAKER_01]: Look what you can have if you continue to do what I say and look what you can have if you are part of the upper class.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_03]: So I'm going to switch gears a little bit here as you ponder that and go to the writing for a second.

[SPEAKER_03]: Austin writes this chapter very intensely.

[SPEAKER_03]: She writes immense dialogue.

[SPEAKER_03]: This is some of the most intense dialogue we've gotten in Mansfield Park yet.

[SPEAKER_03]: The exception of there's a lot of dialogue coming from the Crawford's together, but we don't get a lot of this from the Bertrams.

[SPEAKER_03]: If you think about the proposal scene in the last chapter,

[SPEAKER_03]: not heavy on the dialogue.

[SPEAKER_03]: We talked about it at the time.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's sort of narrated from Phoenix perspective and kind of it's kind of a spurt and gone, whereas this scene reads more like proposal get and in private prejudice, not like exactly like it obviously, because that has a little bit more humor injected into it, but it is a it's an idea.

[SPEAKER_03]: The culmination, this is the big hook on a chapter, not the proposal chapter.

[SPEAKER_03]: Why?

[SPEAKER_01]: Because this is the chapter where

[SPEAKER_01]: Like the last chapter it was a joke, like she thought that it was not a genuine proposal, the main thing was that her brother was promoted and in this chapter, it's the real proposal he came to her uncle and asked for her hand and her uncle is coming to get her and like this is the real actual proposal.

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, yeah, I think that is very true and the consequences of the proposed and this is like the consequences right like this is her saying no and him saying how dare you She didn't really give an answer in the last one.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so I think that's why this one's a little bit bigger Okay

[SPEAKER_03]: Is that right?

[SPEAKER_03]: It's not wrong.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's definitely correct.

[SPEAKER_03]: I'm going to add to it.

[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_03]: And I'm going to do this delicately without kind of like overframing the bug.

[SPEAKER_03]: But in this chapter Henry Crawford is somewhat beside the point right right.

[SPEAKER_03]: We've been spending a lot of time talking about the cousin crush and a better boy the nutty boy Henry Crawford and which one's right for Fanny which was wrong for Fanny the flaws of these two men the intense flaws but the most important confrontation of the book thus far is not with one of these men.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's with her uncle.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's with her uncle.

[SPEAKER_03]: And it's about her.

[SPEAKER_03]: And it's about her and her role in the family and her morals.

[SPEAKER_03]: And whether or not she is being a proper woman in society the way he raised her to be at the behest of other people.

[SPEAKER_03]: So ultimately, this chapter tells me Jane Austen wants us focused on their Thomas and Vanie in a way that she's not putting focus on the boys.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: So in a large way, this is an important part of the story to hold on to.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: in some ways, more so even than what's going on right now with the romances.

[SPEAKER_03]: Not saying it's going to stay that way necessarily, but that's where the book is right now.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: That makes sense.

[SPEAKER_03]: Does that make sense?

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, there have been times.

[SPEAKER_01]: Now, I'm not jumping to conclusions, but there have been times that I've thought that this isn't a love story and it's not a romance novel in the same way that the other ones are, where like,

[SPEAKER_01]: Ultimately, I don't actually see Fanny with either of these men.

[SPEAKER_01]: I thought maybe I could see her with Henry for a little bit.

[SPEAKER_01]: But with the vehemence of her denial, I, or her rejection.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's difficult.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I don't, I don't see her changing her mind.

[SPEAKER_01]: That would just be a very different book from the one we're reading right now, which is like totally like if it happens, great.

[SPEAKER_01]: But right now, it definitely feels like it's more about Fanny and it's about her class and it's about how family dynamics can like shift and change around that it's about like what makes a person a good person and like Sir Thomas can claim he has morals, but like.

[SPEAKER_03]: He also has an estate in Indiga.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, he's like the problem.

[SPEAKER_03]: He might even say he's the problem with the British upper class.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's what I mean when I say he's the problem.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, like it's him.

[SPEAKER_01]: He's emblematic of the problem.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's him, hi, he's the problem.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's him, yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: So he's actually a four on your scale.

[SPEAKER_03]: like bad morals and bad hang yeah he's a bad hang and he's got bad morals but he's claiming but he had anyway he's so obsessed with the morals though he's like and we this is a familiar figure to us that's part of the reason like there are a lot of things to be sympathetic to with search Thomas in some of the previous chapters we've been reading and I want wanting to

[SPEAKER_03]: For me, I opinion, you do hard, but I have a hard time with Sir Thomas as a character, and I think I'm supposed to, yeah, from the Jane Austen perspective, because his monologue about what his morals are is to me familiar, yeah, and timeless in an unfortunate manner, and I hear it, and I think about the things that have been said to me and the women I love that sound a lot like that in the last few decades.

[SPEAKER_03]: Well, leave it there, funny quote.

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, I'm going to give it to this.

[SPEAKER_01]: So, Fanny has just been called to Sir Thomas's room.

[SPEAKER_01]: This is like the last thing that happens.

[SPEAKER_01]: And she's preparing to obey.

[SPEAKER_01]: When Mrs. Norris called out, stay, stay Fanny.

[SPEAKER_01]: What are you about?

[SPEAKER_01]: Where are you going?

[SPEAKER_01]: Don't be in such a hurry.

[SPEAKER_01]: Depend upon it, it is not you that are wanted.

[SPEAKER_01]: Depend upon it, it is me looking at the Butler, but you are so very eager to put yourself forward.

[SPEAKER_01]: What should Sir Thomas want you for?

[SPEAKER_01]: It is me, badly.

[SPEAKER_01]: Also, his name is badly.

[SPEAKER_01]: Badly, you mean, I am coming in this moment.

[SPEAKER_01]: You mean me, badly, I am sure.

[SPEAKER_01]: Sir Thomas wants me, not Miss Price.

[SPEAKER_01]: But badly was stout.

[SPEAKER_01]: No, man, it is Miss Price.

[SPEAKER_01]: I am certain of it being Miss Price.

[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, fantastic.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's so good.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's so good.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's just like the fact that she goes on so hard.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, no, no, no, no, it's definitely me.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I know.

[SPEAKER_03]: I know she's like the worst.

[SPEAKER_03]: But boy, she funny.

[SPEAKER_03]: She's all like she is unfortunately our comic relief.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I mean, that's kind of like, I mean, I don't want to, we'll we'll get to it when we get to the end.

[SPEAKER_03]: But Jane Austen was doing some really weird stuff with Aunt Norris.

[SPEAKER_03]: So anyway, questions moving forward.

[SPEAKER_01]: I am left with the question of whether this will end up being a love story in the end.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I really want to know what's going to happen in this conversation between Henry and

[SPEAKER_01]: Fanny.

[SPEAKER_01]: Also like, why are they alone?

[SPEAKER_03]: Where did Sir Thomas go on Sheparund in their on Sheparund?

[SPEAKER_03]: Who wins the chapter?

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean we have to give it to Fanny.

[SPEAKER_01]: This is a big fanny way.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like are you kidding?

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, she wins in terms of like we are rooting for her at this moment, but she got really yelled at and like she was in a bad way for a minute.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, she had a tough time, but she stood strong.

[SPEAKER_01]: She stood strong, and she made it out alive.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and that's all we can really ask.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, and that's all, that's all any of us can really ask.

[SPEAKER_03]: Like, the sun is still rising on her day.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yes, you know?

[SPEAKER_03]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_03]: So, Fanny, take this wind girl.

[SPEAKER_03]: Hats off to you, girl, you might have be a little bit uptight.

[SPEAKER_03]: You might be a bad hang, but good for you for actually sticking to your principles.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, Fanny, I'm a hang out with you.

[SPEAKER_03]: If I'd be not that fun, but I certainly would.

[SPEAKER_03]: We could play Cribbage, is he great?

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: Listen, ours that concludes this.

[SPEAKER_03]: I'm sure very over stuff to episode of Pot and Pregidas.

[SPEAKER_03]: For next time, we're going to do two chapters again.

[SPEAKER_03]: And we're going to read chapters two and three of volume the third.

[SPEAKER_03]: Or if your book is not volume, chapters 33 and 34.

[SPEAKER_03]: While you ready for that, he is so ready.

[SPEAKER_03]: Then until next time, stay proper.

[SPEAKER_01]: And stick to your guns.

[SPEAKER_01]: See you later, guys.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Potten Prejudice is edited by Molly Birdick and audio produced by Graham Cook.

[SPEAKER_01]: Our show art is designed by Torrance Brown.

[SPEAKER_01]: Our show is transcribed by speech docs, podcast transcription.

[SPEAKER_01]: For transcripts, and to learn more about our team, check out our website at pottenprejudice.com.

[SPEAKER_01]: To keep up with the show, you can follow us on social media at Potten Prejudice.

[SPEAKER_01]: If you love what you hear, check out our Patreon to see how you can support us by some merch at pod and prejudice.dashery.com or just drop us a rating and a review wherever you get your podcasts.

[SPEAKER_01]: Stay proper.