Mansfield Park Volume 3 Chapter 7
Fanny’s in Portsmouth! We meet all the Prices, and they do not live up to our expectations; but more importantly, the Thrush has gone out of harbor. Fanny starts to feel that Portsmouth is not going to be all that she’d hoped for. We also learn that Fanny had another sister, Mary, who died while she was at Mansfield.
Topics discussed include Fanny and William’s dream home, the Crawfords’ love letters, Fanny’s rose-tinted glasses for Mansfield, the return of the fire symbolism, dirty martinis, the lack of good servants in Portsmouth, knife fights, and toasted cheese.
Patron Study Questions come from Ghenet, Avi, Angelika, Linnea, and Sarah K. Topics discussed include our impressions of Fanny’s family, whether Austen’s portrayal of the Prices is fair, Fanny not fitting in with either class, all the new characters we’ve met, whether Fanny would be a different person if she’d grown up with the Prices, and a comparison between Henry and Frank Churchill.
Becca's Study Questions: Topics discussed include a comparison between Fanny’s first day at Mansfield and her first day at Portsmouth, Fanny’s shift in status, Mr. Price in comparison to Sir Thomas, and what's going to happen with the characters we’ve left behind
Funniest Quote: "But though she had seen all the members of the family, she had not yet heard all the noise they could make."
Questions moving forward: How long will Fanny last here? How long will William stick around? Will Fanny befriend Susan?
Who wins the chapters? Betsey!
Glossary of Terms and Phrases:
Sally-port (n): dock where boats picked up or dropped off ship crews from vessels anchored offshore
Glossary of People, Places, and Things:
Toy Story 3, The Three Sisters, Lord of the Rings
Next Episode: Mansfield Park Volume III Chapters 8-9 or Chapters 39 and 40
ALERT ALERT!!!! Come see us LIVE for a talkback after the 2 PM performance of The Betrothed on July 26th. The Betrothed is an absurdist comedy of love, ambition, and social expectation set in the 19th century and performed by an all-women cast. When her brother’s broken engagement disrupts Kitty’s plans to secure a suitor, she’s forced to confront the rigid expectations placed upon her and schemes to restore order and ensure everyone gets their happily ever after. As romantic entanglements unravel and betrayals come to light, The Betrothed queers the classic marriage plot. After the 2PM performance on July 26th, we will be chatting with members of the team about rom-coms and marriage plots.
****Get your tickets HERE!****
Our show art was created by Torrence Browne, and our audio is produced by Graham Cook. For bios and transcripts, check out our website at podandprejudice.com. Pod and Prejudice is transcribed by speechdocs
[SPEAKER_01]: Hey everyone, before we begin today we have an exciting live event coming up that we want to share with you.
[SPEAKER_01]: We are so excited to be partnering up with the Betroth, which is a new play happening off Broadway in New York City.
[SPEAKER_01]: The Betroth is an absurdist comedy of love, ambition, and social expectation.
[SPEAKER_01]: set in the 19th century and performed by an all-women cast, so it's super on-brand for us.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was lucky enough to attend a reading of the play a few months ago, and it was truly a delight.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a talking seal, and that's actually all I'm going to say about that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Written by Scarlett Grace McCarthy, a directed by Sarah Connelly, the betrothed, is running from July 16th through August 1st at W.P.
[SPEAKER_01]: Theater.
[SPEAKER_01]: And as a special treat, on Sunday, July 26th after the two PM performance, Becca and I will be doing a talk back with members of the betroth team.
[SPEAKER_01]: We're going to be talking about how rom-com's happy endings and the marriage plot continue to shape the stories we tell from Jane Austen's time all the way to today.
[SPEAKER_01]: Tickets can be found at the link in our show notes and in the link at the betroth's Instagram bio, which can be found at the betroth to play.
[SPEAKER_01]: We hope we'll see you there.
[SPEAKER_01]: Again, that is Sunday, July 26th after the two PM performance at WP Theatre and you can get tickets at the link in our show notes.
[SPEAKER_01]: And now, please enjoy this week's episode covering Volume 3 chapter 7 of Mansfield Park.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is Becca.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is Molly.
[SPEAKER_02]: We are here to talk about Jane Austen.
[SPEAKER_01]: We are here specifically to talk about Mansfield Park.
[SPEAKER_02]: Listeners, if you're new here, I Becca have read many Jane Austen novels through my lifetime.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm Molly.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm reading all of her works for the first time through this podcast.
[SPEAKER_02]: If you want to hear Molly read through Pied and Prejudice and Sensibility Emma or Persuasion for the first time, you can listen to seasons 1, 2, 3, and 4 of this podcast respectively, but that is not what we're doing here today.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, today we are talking about Mansfield Park volume three chapter seven or if your book is not broken up into volumes chapter 38.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes Well, I just broke the machine.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, we are in port Smith.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, yes, so a bit of a change of pace Yeah, yeah a little bit of a weird vibe shift
[SPEAKER_01]: A lot of new characters.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, all for you to be as confused as possible.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, we'll keep them all separated.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think I think I've got a good handle on who everyone is.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's a big ass family.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, the just if it is many children.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's funny because we'll get into it as we go in Jane Austen gives so much to all the daughters and the family and then she's like, and there were boys.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_02]: And the boys were allowed.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_02]: The boys were allowed and Fannie did not care for that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, exactly.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_02]: So before we get into it, I think I should just say last week, we covered one chapter.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'll be talked about was the fact that Sir Thomas is sending Fannie to Portsmouth and Fannie is looking to enter her getting over Edmund era in Portsmouth.
[SPEAKER_02]: And she has all these good aspirations for hanging out with William and Ian Portsmouth with her natural family.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that is where
[SPEAKER_01]: Fanny was sad to leave Mansfield, but traveling with William really sure syrup because he is a very good travel buddy and their best friends.
[SPEAKER_01]: He talks about the thrush a lot and how soon the first lieutenant is going to be out of the way, but not dead.
[SPEAKER_01]: No murder here, just moving on.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think promote it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Promoted and when that person gets promoted,
[SPEAKER_01]: I think meaning a raise of money.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, nothing.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he's going to set up the cottage to be comfortable for him and Fannie to spend their lives in together.
[SPEAKER_01]: Is that the house that they live in or are they talking about a dream cottage that the two of them can live in one day?
[SPEAKER_02]: I think they're not talking about the house that the family currently lives.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think William saying we're getting a cottage for you and me to hang out in our old age.
[SPEAKER_02]: It was the cutest thing ever.
[SPEAKER_02]: He's a good boy.
[SPEAKER_02]: He's a great only.
[SPEAKER_01]: The one thing they do not talk about in this carriage ride is Mr. Crawford.
[SPEAKER_02]: because William is a good brother.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, we don't need to believe it at the point, but it is so funny because William is as disappointed as everybody else that Fanny says, no, to Henry Crawford, but what does he do about it?
[SPEAKER_02]: He shuts the fuck up and trusts her fucking judgment.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, he's like, it would have been nice, but she doesn't love him, so I'm not gonna push it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and it does say he's young and he's like still valuing love very heavily and she was like oh she doesn't love him whatever I wish she did because he's the man and he got me my job right but whatever she does in so we're not going to talk about it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, like a normal fucking person point to where I william.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, Fanny does have reason to believe that Mr. Crawford still in love with her because it's been three weeks.
[SPEAKER_01]: since he left.
[SPEAKER_01]: And in that time, she's been getting letters from Mary and at the end of each letter, there's a little note from Henry saying that he's in love with her.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, she's still knows that he has not gotten over her yet.
[SPEAKER_01]: The thing about these letters is that Edmund has been making Fanny read them out loud to her.
[SPEAKER_01]: when she receives them and they're written in a way that makes anything that they are really for him and that like Mary is hoping that she's going to read them out loud to Edmund because they're like, I miss all of you at Mansfield so much.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and he's like, oh God, isn't it so sweet?
[SPEAKER_02]: How much she misses all of us at Mansfield?
[SPEAKER_02]: And Fanny wants to die.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's a nightmare scenario for Fanny.
[SPEAKER_02]: She has to read letters from her friend of me, containing notes from the guy who's actively pursuing her, who she does not like.
[SPEAKER_02]: And she has to read all of this aloud to her cousin, Crash, who loves her friend of me.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's designed and allowed to torture Fanny Price.
[SPEAKER_01]: Exactly.
[SPEAKER_01]: She feels used in this whole situation.
[SPEAKER_01]: And she hopes that now that she's not with Edmund anymore, the letters are going to stop coming because like we said, they were specifically for her to read a lot to Edmund.
[SPEAKER_01]: On the road, they passed by Oxford, which was where Edmund went to school.
[SPEAKER_01]: And they stopped for the night in Newbury.
[SPEAKER_01]: The next day, they make really good progress.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so they make this trip to Port Smith in just two days.
[SPEAKER_01]: And they arrived in the early evening, and it's still light out.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, fan, he's like looking around at all the new buildings.
[SPEAKER_01]: And this was giving like, when you come back home to a place that you haven't been in a long time.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you see how much everything's changed and how it's not the place of your childhood anymore.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you know, like, bittersweet, also her family doesn't live in the same house that they lived in.
[SPEAKER_01]: They do not.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, it's a new house.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, she's never been to this place before.
[SPEAKER_01]: When they get there, Fanny is all agitation and flutter, all hope and apprehension.
[SPEAKER_01]: She's nervous.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, she is.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, she's seen your family for the first time in eight years.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I would be nervous too.
[SPEAKER_01]: A maid meets them outside and the first thing she says to them is that the thresh has gone out of harbor.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think what this means, tell me if I'm wrong, is that the thrush was docked here at Portsmouth, and it has moved to another location where it is awaiting orders for its next journey at sea.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think so, yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: Cool.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then the new location is somewhere around spit, spit, spit, spit, spit, spit, spit head.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't think it's at another dock, but it might be at another dock, but I think it also might be docked like anchored as see, not that it's that important, but the thrush being gone out of harbor is important.
[SPEAKER_02]: So it's important for one very particular reason.
[SPEAKER_02]: The most important thing about the thrush being out of harbor is that now it's clear William's not going to be hanging out with her at home.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right, right.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah, my notes say so William is going to leave.
[SPEAKER_02]: So as the me is telling them this, an 11 year old boy comes running out and cuts her off to tell them big news the thrash has gone out of harbor this sequence is so funny to me and it's also so relatable because I'm from a family where everyone will tell you the same news over and over and over again and you're like I've heard it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, this is like very almost slapstick.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it, it was giving the Musgroves a little bit.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, I don't know why, but it just felt like, there's a certain comedy that Jane Austen shorehands where she's like, you've taken a step down in like, classy behavior.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: And the prices are a very far cry from the Musgroves, but it's that same shorehand Jane Austen uses to tell you you're in a new sort of improper setting.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, exactly.
[SPEAKER_01]: The kid, the 11-year-old boy, says that it was really beautiful to watch the ships leave the harbor and Mr. Campbell had come by looking for William because he wants him to leave with him at six o'clock.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's now probably like five.
[SPEAKER_01]: Fanny is like giving this child kisses, but he barely acknowledges her, which is the first of many.
[SPEAKER_01]: This kid is Sam, by the way, and he is supposed to be going out with the thrush at 11 years old.
[SPEAKER_02]: Is that normal?
[SPEAKER_02]: So ships do have young boys on board to do like specific tasks.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: And sometimes they grow up into being things like midshipmen and stuff.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm no expert in like British naval history, but my understanding is that's what William was doing.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, right.
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, because he's not much older than fans.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, he's like he's a year to older than fans.
[SPEAKER_02]: And he also went to the Navy around the time.
[SPEAKER_02]: Fanny went to Mansfield Park.
[SPEAKER_02]: And right, so I think it is usual that there's like a couple young boys on board to do like some specific tasks not great for the British Royal Navy just generally to do you doing that.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't think it happens anymore, but it was a part of yet certainly part of the ships fabric to have a young young boys aboard cool.
[SPEAKER_01]: So Sam is starting his career in the Navy, which is very exciting for him.
[SPEAKER_01]: Fanny then goes inside and gives her mother a hug and is very nice, but the book does note that Fanny loves her all the more because her face reminds her of Lady Bertram's face.
[SPEAKER_02]: Very interesting.
[SPEAKER_01]: Very.
[SPEAKER_01]: I feel like she's romanticizing a little bit.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, clearly Mrs. Price looks like her sister.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: But what I'm saying is the fact that she is missing.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, she has been having a good time there.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, you mean, she's romanticizing me and it's filled park, not Mrs. Price.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, we'll get into it.
[SPEAKER_01]: OK, cool, cool.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, there's a lot to unpack there.
[SPEAKER_01]: So there are also two girls her sisters Susan who is 14 and her sister Betsy who's five so this kid wasn't born when she left and they're both happy to see her But they don't like greet her in a very proper way and fan he's like I don't need manners as long as they are loving yeah She's then taken into the parlor and she has a moment where she thinks that it's just like a hallway or like a passage room
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, she thinks it's too small to have been where they hang out and then she realizes that's the whole house.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and then she feels really guilty for having thought that thought.
[SPEAKER_01]: But the mother, her mother, has already left to go see to welcoming William in.
[SPEAKER_01]: And of course, she has to share the news that the thrush has gone out of harbor three days early.
[SPEAKER_01]: So how is she going to get Sam's
[SPEAKER_01]: She's also stressed because she had really been hoping that she was going to be able to have a chill evening with William and Fanny and now William is going to have to spend the evening getting ready to go and it's going to be stressful but William is not worried he's like
[SPEAKER_01]: these things happen.
[SPEAKER_01]: I must go.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's nothing to be done.
[SPEAKER_01]: Have you said hi to Fanny yet?
[SPEAKER_02]: William's whole thing is like, oh no, don't worry.
[SPEAKER_02]: The thrush is gone.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's just gone.
[SPEAKER_02]: But by the way, here's your daughter.
[SPEAKER_02]: You haven't seen it eight years.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Literally to her and then later to her father or his father.
[SPEAKER_01]: He just has to keep reminding them of the she exists.
[SPEAKER_01]: So they go back into the parlor and she greets Fanny again and starts fussing over both of them being like I wasn't sure what you would want to eat or if you just want tea so I don't have anything prepared but uh we can get something prepared but we don't have a butcher nearby we were so much better off at our old house which was near to the butcher which was near to the butcher and uh maybe maybe just some tea and they're like yes tea would be great.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so she tells Betsy the five-year-old to go get Rebecca and tell her to get the tea things.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then she says she wishes she could get the bell fixed, but Betsy is a good messenger.
[SPEAKER_01]: So they use Betsy as a replacement for the servant bell.
[SPEAKER_01]: And Betsy is very excited to show off that she can do stuff.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, which is cute for specifically for her sister.
[SPEAKER_01]: Mrs. Price then starts saying like apologizing for their fire, which by the way, I've just realizing as I'm saying it is very similar to Fanny in the East room being like, sorry, I don't have a fire.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, it is very similar to Fanny in these rooms, saying, sorry, I don't have a fire.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, family resemblance is there.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, but also, yeah, just the fire is a marker of like class and status is like very notable here.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's, and it's also, it's showing the scale of like, I don't know if scales the right word, but like the parallels between phanties situation at Mansfield and their situation here.
[SPEAKER_02]: Sure, sure.
[SPEAKER_02]: You might even say it shows a shift in phanties power in each space.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, because now she's being apologized too.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, about the fire.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, she's like, I don't know why Rebecca hasn't been tending to the fire Susan, you should have taken care of it.
[SPEAKER_01]: When you saw that she wasn't taking care of it and Susan's like, well, I was setting up the room upstairs.
[SPEAKER_01]: Then you shocked that Susan talked back to her, but we also learned that Fanny and Susan are going to be sharing a room.
[SPEAKER_01]: Then the driver comes in to get paid and there's some chaos as Sam and Rebecca are you over who's going to take Fanny's trunk upstairs because Sam wants to be like the big man and take the trunk upstairs and then we hear this part is pretty funny actually to me We hear Mr. Price in the hallway and he
[SPEAKER_01]: Says something of the oath kind, which makes me think he's like swearing.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, because he can't see and he's also drunk and he walks into a bunch of stuff.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, and he's like Can someone get me a fucking candle and no candle arrives so he's like just grumbling grumbling around in the hallway feeling his way and Fanny stands up to greet him
[SPEAKER_01]: but it's too dark in the room because the fire is so small and there's no candle and he doesn't see her and so she sits back down.
[SPEAKER_02]: We've all been there girl.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but it really breaks my heart.
[SPEAKER_02]: Not with our fathers necessarily but we for sure with other people but like getting up to breathe someone and then they like don't see you at all and you're like oh I'm just gonna sit back down holding out your hand.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh for a handshake.
[SPEAKER_01]: God, I'm cringey.
[SPEAKER_01]: And they already have turned away.
[SPEAKER_01]: Ooh, oh it's so bad.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Mr. Price goes to greet William.
[SPEAKER_01]: He recognizes him, and he get this, the thrush has gone out of harbor.
[SPEAKER_02]: No way.
[SPEAKER_02]: Where has the thrush gone again?
[SPEAKER_02]: Out of harbor.
[SPEAKER_02]: Where?
[SPEAKER_02]: Spithead.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, spithead.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: And this been can talk.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like a wall of text just telling him all about the thrush going out of harbor.
[SPEAKER_01]: And William is like, very cool.
[SPEAKER_01]: By the way, did you see Fanny?
[SPEAKER_02]: your daughter from eight years ago that you gave to your in laws.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you gave to your in.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, yeah, and he turns around and he's like, oh, yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he gives her a hug and he's like, you've gotten so big.
[SPEAKER_01]: You're probably looking for a husband.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then he's like, oh, he's like, I know it really.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not, but she doesn't say that.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then he forgets about her again.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm packed that.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm packed outside.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I just like she was really hoping for something else here and she did not get what she was looking for at all, especially not from him.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and she's very put off by the drink on his breath, too.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: And like his general manners and yeah, the drink.
[SPEAKER_01]: She shrinks back into her seat and is sad.
[SPEAKER_01]: And William is trying to like remind him that she's there, but he really only wants to talk about the thrush.
[SPEAKER_01]: And no tea arrives still.
[SPEAKER_01]: So William is like, you know what, I'm going to get dressed and then by the time I get back, the tea will be here and we can all enjoy our tea together, but I'm going to get ready to go.
[SPEAKER_01]: So he leaves and then Tom and Charles enter Charles being an eight year old who was born right after Fanny left and Tom being a nine year old who was a baby that Fanny was very close to.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, she adored this little baby when he was a little baby and she was helping with him.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and tough, tough time because she wants to be like, oh my god, you were my favorite and I was your favorite when you were a little baby and she wants to have this like moment.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he could not give less of a shit.
[SPEAKER_01]: He just wants to run around and got wreak havoc.
[SPEAKER_02]: I also relate to this moment from Fanny because I like when I've seen like the siblings of my friends and I haven't seen them in years and I saw those little kids and like oh my god You were so little and they're like yeah, you're just like my older sister's friend.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and they're like also we grew up like everybody Yeah, exactly like I'm now on adult.
[SPEAKER_01]: You don't have to think about me like that
[SPEAKER_01]: And like you're a baby when they when they do become adults it is fun like my close friend is getting married and for her Bachelorette we all went out to dinner.
[SPEAKER_01]: I've said it next to her said it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was seated next to her little sister who was born when we were in third grade So I have a picture of all of us meeting the baby
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, and now she just graduated college and so like we were drinking with her and it was fun She was like you should get a martini and I was like, I don't know if I like Martini's and she was like You're gonna like this one.
[SPEAKER_01]: Did you well?
[SPEAKER_01]: Did you like the where-tini?
[SPEAKER_01]: I did.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh my god.
[SPEAKER_01]: I love the dirty martini extra dirty It was very dirty and it had the vodka was like cucumber and fused
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it was, it sounds really good.
[SPEAKER_01]: Very nice, yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Anyway, so like when they're an adult, it's really fun when they're like in their tweens, they do not care.
[SPEAKER_02]: They do not enjoy being reminded they were ever in baby.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right, exactly.
[SPEAKER_01]: So now she's met everyone in the house.
[SPEAKER_01]: There are still two other brothers that are not here.
[SPEAKER_01]: They have jobs.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think one of like works for a lawyer in town or something, something like that and the other ones at sea.
[SPEAKER_01]: So he probably won't be coming.
[SPEAKER_02]: No, no, we have our cast of price children and I think save to say we have our loud boys and our way boys and William.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yep.
[SPEAKER_02]: And the girls.
[SPEAKER_02]: And the girls.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, the house is loud.
[SPEAKER_01]: Everyone's just shouting.
[SPEAKER_02]: And we know our girl is funny.
[SPEAKER_02]: She gets over stimming.
[SPEAKER_01]: She gets over stimming.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: She wants her little bushwig loft.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: And like it's quiet in the room that she's in, but she is struck by how thin all the walls are.
[SPEAKER_01]: And also all the doors are just open all the time.
[SPEAKER_01]: So she hears everything going out upstairs.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_02]: And she's like in a giant
[SPEAKER_02]: you could be in a quiet corner in like five different places at any given point.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is the worst.
[SPEAKER_01]: I feel like when you arrive somewhere and you're going to be there for a while and you realize like it's like the first night at summer camp and you're like, I just want to go to bed and you're realizing that that's not what's going to happen and it probably won't happen for the next several weeks.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Or like we talked about this family was really romanticizing what it was going to be like to return to Portsmouth.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: and it's not that this is not living up to what she was thinking and you see her her time there to grade bit by bit oh Williams not going to be here oh they didn't really greet me but that's okay oh this living room is kind of small but you know like it's it's fine it's fine oh there really isn't a fire and the tea hasn't come yet
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, and, you know, my brothers, they don't really want to talk to me.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, with loud, it's really loud and you just see all these like little things come bit by bit and layer on top of each other to be like really overwhelming.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: I would cry.
[SPEAKER_01]: What's going on upstairs is that William is upset about a bunch of things at one being that his uniform is supposed to be fixed and it wasn't fixed and Rebecca was like well I like she's trying to defend herself feeling like I'm busy But then she fixes it really quick and probably does a shitty job and this is all like being shouted from one floor to the next floor So it's a lot and her father is just like reading the paper this whole time and not talking to her and they're alone in the room
[SPEAKER_01]: So she's like, don't you want to ask me about the man's field and the people in Mansfield, but she feels like she's being unreasonable for expecting a warmer welcome, which is very funny.
[SPEAKER_02]: Very funny.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, she's like, this is my fault, obviously, but
[SPEAKER_01]: At least ask me about our dear dear friends at Mansfield, our dear dear friends.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, the people we love so much at Mansfield Park.
[SPEAKER_01]: We've taken such good care of me and done so much for our family now.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and I'm so grateful.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm so grateful to them.
[SPEAKER_01]: They have done a lot for the family, I guess, like financially.
[SPEAKER_02]: Have they?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, Sir Thomas got William his first job in the Navy and they fed in housed Fanny for years and paid for her upbringing as a lady and that's been a lot of what's been given.
[SPEAKER_02]: But that's not nothing.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's not pretty significant.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but they're not buddy buddy.
[SPEAKER_02]: They have not seen each other in years.
[SPEAKER_02]: If you were called back to the first chapter of this book, Mrs. Price and her sisters were estranged for years.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then because she married for love, then her husband who was in the Navy heard himself quite badly.
[SPEAKER_02]: and then was out of work essentially.
[SPEAKER_02]: They had a lot of kids together and they didn't have all the money to feed those kids.
[SPEAKER_02]: So then she writes for sisters and it's like, I'm so sorry for all of the pain and suffering, but also can you give me money?
[SPEAKER_02]: Can you help me out?
[SPEAKER_02]: And they put William in the Navy, they send like kids clothes and stuff and Mrs. Norris is like, what if we took on
[SPEAKER_02]: Wouldn't it be cute, Mr. Thomas, if you paid for Fanny to be here and we wouldn't have to treat you like anything special.
[SPEAKER_02]: It was like this, like, oh, we're such good people charity case.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_02]: Back in the day.
[SPEAKER_01]: The thought struck me that, and I know that we've talked about this before, but like, there is, is there any form of birth control in this time period?
[SPEAKER_01]: No, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: The pull out method.
[SPEAKER_01]: The pull out method.
[SPEAKER_01]: So they are not good at that because they literally got rid of a child so they could afford to live and then proceeded to have
[SPEAKER_02]: more children, more children.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think just one more after like they had they she was probably pregnant when Fanny left to two more and there's the eight year old and there's the five year and the five year old.
[SPEAKER_01]: So they had a three years later that they were like oops.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yep.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then they probably couldn't mask to get rid of another one.
[SPEAKER_02]: Nope.
[SPEAKER_01]: Wow, the thing is none of them were girls.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean Betsy was, but she was a baby.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then actually they could have gotten rid of Susan at that point, but anyway, sorry, this is a terrible conversation.
[SPEAKER_02]: No, no, it's a very dark thing, but that's what this chapter brings up.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, you're asking a lot of questions.
[SPEAKER_02]: Why do they have so many children?
[SPEAKER_02]: That's a dark question.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, why is
[SPEAKER_02]: Benny's dad drunk in the middle of the day.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's a question.
[SPEAKER_02]: Why did these children have no discipline?
[SPEAKER_02]: Why isn't there fire on?
[SPEAKER_02]: Why does no one care that Benny's there after eight years?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like there are a lot of questions that are posed by this chapter that are kind of dark.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, um, which is not usual for Jane Austen.
[SPEAKER_02]: No.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: So eventually the T comes and Susan comes in with another servant, which makes Fanny realize that she had previously seen the upper servant.
[SPEAKER_01]: So Rebecca is the upper servant.
[SPEAKER_02]: Rebecca is the, yeah, and I get this in the younger servant is like really young.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, like, could not be in charge at all.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, I mean, yeah, this is like another thing like teenage girls and, you know, younger kids were often put to work in these like sort of assistant servant roles in like lower houses like this This comes up in a bronchi novel in a way I want spoiled, but there's a character that's quite poor that has a servant and her servant is just a young girl who goes to school in the village.
[SPEAKER_02]: Wow.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: So like the Hoidi Toyty full staff at Mansfield Park has
[SPEAKER_02]: That's not what's happening here.
[SPEAKER_02]: There is one servant.
[SPEAKER_02]: She's garbage at her job and she has one like kid helping her.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: So Susan is like torn between feeling proud that she has been helpful like like to show off that she's like, look at what I knew and embarrassed that she had to help with
[SPEAKER_01]: do the tea because she was like, if I hadn't helped her, it would never have come out.
[SPEAKER_01]: And she's sure that Fanny wants something after her long journey.
[SPEAKER_01]: And Fanny's like, oh my god, thank you so much.
[SPEAKER_01]: This means the world to me.
[SPEAKER_01]: She feels like this is a very well-timed kindness because she had just been about to sink into a pit of despair.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, Fanny has been teetering in a pit of honest, like the brink of a pit of despair for a while now.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: And like, if not for this tea
[SPEAKER_02]: just been there.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, exactly.
[SPEAKER_01]: She feels like Susan has a similar disposition to William and she's like, maybe she'll also love me as much as William does and we can be friends.
[SPEAKER_01]: William then enters in his lieutenant's uniform and Fannie bursts into tears because she's so proud of her brother.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's a very stressful time and something good is coming out.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, she's like, yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and then she's like, oh, no, I don't want to see him unhappy.
[SPEAKER_01]: So she like drives her tears, even though they're clearly tears of joy, but
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, he says that he hopes that until they actually like set to see he's going to be able to be unsure for some part of each day, so he might have a few more days with her and he's hoping that she can come out to spit head at some point.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then we meet another character, Mr. Campbell, who is the surgeon on the threshold.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's interesting that he's not Dr. Campbell.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know the vibes back then with Dr. versus Mr.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's interesting and then there's some more chaos of like getting him a chair and getting him tea and they have to wash the dishes in order to get him tea, which is embarrassing and then he and William leave and the three boys go off with them to see them to the Sally port, which I looked up, which is a doc where boats picked up or dropped off ship crews from vessels anchored offshore so like a little boat to bring them to the boats.
[SPEAKER_01]: like directly on the dock necessarily it might just be docked a little bit always a way and you take a little dingy out there and is the thrush the boat or is it the like this loop the fleet because they talk about the slope and they talk about the thrush but I wasn't sure if the thrush referred to a group of ships or if the thrush is the main ship and then the slope is the rest of them all together.
[SPEAKER_02]: The thrush is the ship that will be commanding and the sleep is like the generic name for that ship.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a type of ship.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, I see.
[SPEAKER_01]: So the boat that Mr. Campbell was talking about is the small boat that's going to bring them to the thrush.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, I see.
[SPEAKER_01]: Which is a big boat.
[SPEAKER_01]: Got it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Got it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Got it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: Cool.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then, Mr. Price goes off to return his newspaper to his friend, who he borrowed it from.
[SPEAKER_01]: So the women are alone, and Mrs. Price finally asks about Mansfield Park.
[SPEAKER_01]: Specifically, she asks if Lady Birdstrom has the same troubles with keeping a servant that she does, because her servants are the worst.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's all she really asks about Mansfield Park.
[SPEAKER_01]: Then she just goes on to start complaining about Rebecca.
[SPEAKER_01]: And Betsy and Susan also have a lot to say about Rebecca.
[SPEAKER_01]: And they just talk shit about Rebecca for a while.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: And Fanny's like, well, you know, let Rebecca go when her year is up.
[SPEAKER_01]: And they're like, a year.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, no, no, no, no, no.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's very rare for someone to stay more than six months in import Smith.
[SPEAKER_01]: They don't say that this is a them problem.
[SPEAKER_01]: They say it's a port Smith problem.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I feel like it might be a them problem.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, it's the people who are good at being servants are not serving in sports myth.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, that's good point.
[SPEAKER_01]: And wait.
[SPEAKER_02]: Our Butler at Mansfield Park is like running a, he's like CEO of a company of servants, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: All working at Tipped-Up to get Mansfield Park running as it should.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that makes sense.
[SPEAKER_02]: Rebecca's one person and she's just like cooking and cleaning for them and she's not particularly good at it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Mrs. Price says that she is not a difficult mistress to please and the house is small and they always have another girl serving like a kid like you were saying a Sally helping and also she ends up doing half the work herself so she doesn't know why she can't get a good servant.
[SPEAKER_01]: But while this is happening, Fanny spaces out because she is looking at Betsy, the five-year-old, and she is thinking of another sister, Mary.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: Who was about Betsy's age when Fanny left for Nashville and who died?
[SPEAKER_02]: She didn't need.
[SPEAKER_01]: A few years later, Fanny had loved her and she, when she got the news that she died, she like,
[SPEAKER_01]: sunk into a pit of despair.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, this is news to me.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't think we knew that.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, this is brand new in this story.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I mean, it's also noted that obviously Susan was like a kid at the same time.
[SPEAKER_02]: And she was always closer to Mary than she was to Susan.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so she heard from afar that Mary died and was like hasn't been home since.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: So so this is new to her to be around these people without Mary there.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_02]: Mary, the little five-year-old.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, she's got Betsy instead and it's kind of like maybe like a memory of like someone like it feels like she's kind of frozen in time.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, as a five year old.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, while Fanny is thinking about this Betsy holds out something shiny to her and she's trying to hide it from Susan as she shows Fanny and this is a knife.
[SPEAKER_01]: I have questions about the knife, but we'll get into it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Susan sees the knife, and she gets very upset.
[SPEAKER_01]: And she's like, that's my knife.
[SPEAKER_01]: Mary left it to me on her deathbed.
[SPEAKER_01]: And my mom, mother, mama, has been keeping it from me.
[SPEAKER_01]: And Betsy keeps getting hold of it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And Betsy's gonna end up taking it for herself and ruining everything.
[SPEAKER_01]: And my mom promised that Betsy wasn't gonna touch it and this is terrible.
[SPEAKER_01]: Mrs. Price is like, do you have to be so quarrel some about this?
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a knife.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's pretty dark and also kind of mean to you say to your 14-year-old daughter.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, she should just let her have the knife.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I do have questions about like the knife.
[SPEAKER_01]: Is it like a letter opener or is it a knife knife?
[SPEAKER_02]: I think it's like a nice pretty knife, like a decorative one, like a letter opener.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, of sorts.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like it's not like a, it's not like a machete or whatever, it's like something a kid would use to cut up an apple.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, like I'm sure.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and is Mrs. Price keeping it from Susan because she doesn't not hurt a half of the knife or she's just like keeping it in storage for her.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think she's safe keeping it for her.
[SPEAKER_02]: Safe keeping she's older.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, but Betsy.
[SPEAKER_02]: keeps taking it and Mrs. Price does not seem particularly fussed to make sure it stays in Susan's possession.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right, and she turns to Betsy and she's like poor Betsy is Susan mad at you for taking the knife.
[SPEAKER_01]: Why does she have to be so mad at you for taking the knife?
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like not nice of you to yell.
[SPEAKER_01]: It drives me crazy when it's like it's not nice of you to yell.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's like she did something wrong.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, you got to tell her she did something wrong.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and then like she keeps doing it because she is the one that's like getting coddled.
[SPEAKER_02]: and also getting attention when you do something naughty and then your sister yells at you that's fun attention and then your mom yells at your sister for yelling at you attention um she's five so like she's five more down our girl Betsy but like that's that's clearly a dynamic that we're seeing here
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I like Betsy.
[SPEAKER_01]: I did watch Toy Story 3 last night and I'm picturing Bonnie.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh.
[SPEAKER_01]: Anyway, Mrs. Price says, well, you shouldn't have taken out of the drawer.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to have to hide it better next time.
[SPEAKER_01]: And she says that poor Mary didn't think that this knife was going to be such a point of contention when she left it to Susan.
[SPEAKER_02]: which feels like she is blaming Susan for something being taken from her.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: She tells Fanny that the knife had been a gift from Mary's godmother.
[SPEAKER_01]: Mrs. Admiral Maxwell and Mary had been so fond of the knife that she had kept it with her through her entire illness until she died.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then she turns to about seeing she's like poor Betsy doesn't have such a kind godmother because her godmother is
[SPEAKER_02]: If there's one thing all the price is going to agree on, is that Norris saw it?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, exactly.
[SPEAKER_01]: Norris had not sent anything for Betsy through Fanny other than a message that she hoped that she's been a good girl and has been learning her book.
[SPEAKER_01]: The Bible?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: There had been a moment, a moment of consideration of sending a prayer book, but the only two that she had were not suitable for a five-year-old, because one, the font must do small and the other one was too heavy and she couldn't be bothered to get a third.
[SPEAKER_01]: A third.
[SPEAKER_01]: At last, Fanny decides,
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, someone suggests, do you want to go to bed?
[SPEAKER_01]: And she's like, yes, thank you.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, Fanny goes up to bed.
[SPEAKER_01]: And she, uh, she's walking upstairs.
[SPEAKER_01]: She hears Betsy, like, saying, I want to stay up later.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the boys are begging for toasted cheese, which sounds delicious.
[SPEAKER_02]: It sounds like girl cheese to me.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh yeah, like a cheese toasty.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh yeah, I was picturing like cubes of cheese being fried.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean that sounds delicious too But I do think it's a cheese toasty.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, and Mr. Price is calling for rum and Rebecca's never where she should be so everyone's just yelling and Fanny is going upstairs and being like, oh my god You picture Fanny like close up on Fanny's face as she's ascending away from the chaos upstairs
[SPEAKER_01]: and then entering this tiny room and still being able to hear everything and missing her little attic room at Mansfield Park.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that is the end of that chapter.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oi, oi and deus to the study questions.
[SPEAKER_02]: We are a far cry for Mansfield Park in the fancy Crawfords and Bertrams.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, starting with the patron study questions, listeners.
[SPEAKER_02]: If you want to ask us questions about the chapters as we read them through, you can become a patron on our Patreon at the $15 tier.
[SPEAKER_02]: Molly puts up a Google Doc, gives me your questions.
[SPEAKER_02]: We asked them on air.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, Jeanay asks, what is your first impression of Fanny's family?
[SPEAKER_02]: Does that inform or alter your thoughts on Fanny herself or the Bertrims or cofferance?
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, her family is chaotic.
[SPEAKER_01]: doesn't seem to be filled with like a ton of affection doesn't seem that they lack affection.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're not like, they don't all hate each other, but I feel like there's just too much chaos for them to like really spend any time together.
[SPEAKER_01]: It seems.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it doesn't strike me as like a happy home reading a chapter.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, it's just a loud home.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's an overwhelming like there's just too many people it's tiring for everybody here like in the home and it's they're very cramped together in one space and they're always yelling always yelling yeah yeah and it not always out of anger but always yelling
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that what you said is right that like her status in this moment has shifted, it doesn't really alter my thoughts on Fanny in general though because I don't think that she was old enough when she left to have been super formed by this house.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, actually,
[SPEAKER_01]: It's interesting about Fanny because she has like when she left her family, she was like very much like I'm leaving a place where I am beloved and I'm the favorite of all my siblings, like they all love me and and some of them were really young and don't remember her now.
[SPEAKER_02]: One of them died Williams going away.
[SPEAKER_02]: So like it's a different dynamic.
[SPEAKER_02]: She's been gone eight years.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: And she was the second oldest.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: So like all of them were really too young to like remember her and like care about her, except her parents, except her parents who still seem to not at least her dad, her mom at least gave her a hug in a kiss.
[SPEAKER_01]: Her dad also gave her a hug but immediately forgot about her.
[SPEAKER_01]: And they don't seem to care about what the last eight years have been like for her.
[SPEAKER_02]: They do not.
[SPEAKER_01]: So don't love that.
[SPEAKER_01]: This does inform my thoughts on the bird terms and the Crawfords because I think it's just giving me something to compare them to.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's Jane Austen's putting a comparison smack dab in the middle of the book for you to make.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, we've been in this house that has felt like in the first volume, very oppressive to Fanny because everyone was so mean and didn't care about her, but it was massive and she could like kind of find herself little pockets of sanity and like
[SPEAKER_01]: A safe space for herself and she's also like found herself a little bit and like learned who she is as a person in that house.
[SPEAKER_01]: So like to then go back to the home that she idealized as a child.
[SPEAKER_01]: This isn't the same home, but like go to a place that she felt like would be her ideal.
[SPEAKER_01]: And to have it be like more oppressive than Mansfield is eye opening.
[SPEAKER_02]: and traveling.
[SPEAKER_02]: And what we'll get to some of my thoughts on this later question, but there's a lot to unpack about what this tells us about Fanny, what this tells us about the Bertrams.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think this leads nicely into obvious question, which is Fanny Price and Jane Austin, both lived in a higher class milieu and a higher class than the prices.
[SPEAKER_02]: With that knowledge, how do you feel about the way this family is portrayed in this chapter?
[SPEAKER_02]: Is it fair?
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think that's a very important thing to discuss.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, is it fair?
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, starting with Fanny Price, I think it's fair for her to be overwhelmed and to be potentially missing the upper class that she has been raised in.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that is fair from Jane Austen's perspective, I think she's really piling it on.
[SPEAKER_01]: She didn't necessarily have to give this family 15 children.
[SPEAKER_02]: No, and the drunk dad and a loudness and a terrible serve, and there's a lot there.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, if I'm being fair to Austin.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: This isn't our first foray into like low-class moments, and there have been some bad ones.
[SPEAKER_02]: And there are ways in which this is bad.
[SPEAKER_02]: Jane Austen does have a streak of classism.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's showing in this chapter.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think it's intentional though.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and that I think is important because I don't think she is idolizing the upper classes in this book.
[SPEAKER_01]: No.
[SPEAKER_02]: We will talk about that as the story goes on.
[SPEAKER_02]: We have already discussed that very firmly, but despite the way Fanny is feeling in the chapter, I don't think Jane Austen wants us to feel that man's field park was a paradise.
[SPEAKER_02]: It feels like a paradise compared to what Fanny's going through now, but to Fanny.
[SPEAKER_02]: We were with Fanny at Man's Field Park.
[SPEAKER_02]: There were a lot of problems.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so I think that Fannie has to be out of sorts in both places for the story to work.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it has to feel bad.
[SPEAKER_02]: And the tragedy of this is and Jane Olson writes this perfectly.
[SPEAKER_02]: Fannie didn't fit in it Mansfield Park.
[SPEAKER_02]: She was brought to Mansfield Park as an outsider, was treated like an outsider, conceived of herself as an outsider, and was brought into the fold as much as possible, and sort of suited herself to be Sir Thomas's ideal daughter, Edmund's ideal cousin slash woman, like adhering herself to the principles, morals, and etiquettes of Mansfield Park in that upper class.
[SPEAKER_02]: and still she was an outsider because they always kept reminding her she was an outsider but when she goes home to portsmith she's out of sorts there because she no longer fits in there because she's two man's field park at this point yeah she it's something that you hear a lot of people talk about in a lot of different circumstances with people from immigrant communities who feel like
[SPEAKER_02]: you know, they can't be too American or they can't be too from their home country.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like it's they feel somewhere in between.
[SPEAKER_02]: Here people talk about that in a lot of different identities where it's difficult for people to bridge the gap when they don't quite fit in either spot.
[SPEAKER_02]: Jane Austen's doing that with class here in my opinion.
[SPEAKER_02]: She's making it so that Fanny doesn't fit in at Mansfield Park because she's not from there and she's making it that she doesn't fit in an import Smith because
[SPEAKER_02]: So she stalked, she doesn't fit either of ways.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and is Jane Austen also maybe saying that money is not the thing that's going to make a person happy and lack of money isn't going to be the thing that's going to make a person.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think there is a certain comfort and like Jane Austen clearly does think money can make funny a little bit happier here.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, this is an uncomfortable place to live and it's uncomfortable because of the lack of money.
[SPEAKER_02]: right because they're not they're all kind of miserable miserable people except lady Bertram who's having a ball she's having a great yeah actually like if we want to grow up to be like one of them just kidding but like to hang out with the dog all day yeah no I I think there's definitely a comfort and ease to being in a in a wealthy home that this portrays and this contrast is stark and sharp for a reason it's very different than the rest of her
[SPEAKER_02]: book here, and it's also different than the rest of the other books we've read, but I don't think that she's necessarily saying the people there are bad people.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think she's saying it is hard to be poor in the blend.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think there, I mean, obviously, again, streak of classes in there, but I do think what she's saying is that Fanny has been placed in this impossible position where she doesn't fit in either class anymore, because she was born into one and raised in another.
[SPEAKER_02]: she has tried very hard to become a Bertram in a lot of ways and she's closer than her cousins in some ways to being a Bertram because she adheres more to the principles that Sir Thomas thinks that his children should adhere to and frankly she does a better job of that than even Edmund does.
[SPEAKER_02]: Anyway, yeah, what I find when I'm sitting in this chapter is this discomfort with feeling like Fanny is uncomfortable through all of Mansfield Park because she's lower status than everyone around her.
[SPEAKER_02]: Now she's uncomfortable in Portsmouth because she's higher status than her family, and it's a tragic place to be in.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Angelica asks, so many new characters, what are your impressions of the new characters?
[SPEAKER_02]: Who do you think will be important in the story moving forward?
[SPEAKER_02]: The whole price plan and their servants and Mr. Campbell.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's go through the price plan first.
[SPEAKER_02]: We have Mr. Price.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: Don't love him.
[SPEAKER_02]: Mrs. Price.
[SPEAKER_01]: Interesting character.
[SPEAKER_02]: Expound on that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Reminds me a little bit of Mrs. Dashwood.
[SPEAKER_01]: In a way, like, means well, but is a little overwhelmed.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, not doing the best job of managing everything, but like not hard-hearted.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: I guess also, I like a little missus Bennett, but less funny.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, yeah, you can, you cannot recreate the the unbelievable creation of Mrs. Bennett and any novel.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and then we have William who we know and we know William.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, no notes.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then skipping past Fanny is obviously we know Fanny, we're at Susan.
[SPEAKER_01]: I feel like Susan will be important because Fanny said that she reminds her a little bit of William and his hopeful that they can be friends during this time and especially since William's leaving.
[SPEAKER_02]: Give it a impression of Susan or nothing so far.
[SPEAKER_01]: Not much.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, she's the eldest right now.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I feel like.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, she's the eldest when they're at home.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think she might think a little highly of herself and I think that she might look up to Fanny or she might get annoyed at Fanny.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know yet.
[UNKNOWN]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: That brings us to Thomas and Charles.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so Charles, I think isn't going to really matter because he was born after Fanny left and I feel like there's not going to be much for them to connect on, but Tom is going to be interesting because he is someone that Fanny wants to get to know and it'll be difficult for her to do so if he doesn't want to get to know her, so that might be hard.
[SPEAKER_02]: We have our girl Betsy.
[SPEAKER_01]: We have Betsy, love Betsy, picturing Bonnie, love her.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then we have our non-priced characters.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, we have Sam.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh my God, Sam, I forgot about Sam.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's too many prices.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, I will Sam is gonna go off to see with William.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I also don't think we're gonna see much of him.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I think that'll be a point of stress for Mrs. Price because she is trying to pack him up and saying goodbye to a baby.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that can make it harder to say goodbye to William too.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, and then we have our girl Rebecca Loki obsessed with her back up like quite quit everything guys.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, like our quiet quitting icon Rebecca the servant she's just like
[SPEAKER_01]: Give me my money.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm getting paid.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm dusting.
[SPEAKER_01]: What do you want from me?
[SPEAKER_02]: Just standing in a quarter.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like flicking a feather dust or something like I'm working.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Exactly.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm doing it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I do think that she is funny.
[SPEAKER_01]: One thing I'll say is a lot of the characters including Rebecca have been talking back to authority, which is what?
[SPEAKER_02]: Improper.
[SPEAKER_02]: Improper.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then we have Mr. Campbell, Mr. Campbell, also going to be leaving with William, but there's something about him that tells me he's important.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know what, but they said he's young, so.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, and Sally.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, and our girl Sally.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't think she's going to be super important.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, Lena asks what would Fanny have become if she was left to grow as the oldest and her birth family instead of the last and least among the Bertrams, which he still be timid, which he still have the same moral center.
[SPEAKER_01]: Ooh.
[SPEAKER_01]: Interesting.
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, I do not think she would still be so timid because I think that was beat into her as a child.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I do think that she would still have a moral center.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that's an intrinsic thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I think a lot of her like it's not her morals that we're necessarily learned from the Bertrams, but her manners.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it lends itself to the question can people change, which is a question we do keep asking you we do keep we do keep wondering if people can change.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to refrain from answering this one because I think I cannot answer it without talking about the broader themes of the books that are spoilers.
[SPEAKER_02]: Cool.
[SPEAKER_02]: And finally, Sarah Kay asks not necessarily specific to the chapter, but I'd love to compare and contrast Henry Crawford and Frank Churchill.
[SPEAKER_01]: Ooh, ooh, our boys.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think we owe our listeners a garbodge versus compost check on Henry Crawford.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: Henry Crawford is compost.
[SPEAKER_02]: How's that?
[SPEAKER_02]: Explain.
[SPEAKER_01]: Because he is still loving on Fanny, even though he left.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's been at least three weeks and he hasn't given up.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that makes me feel like the man is really in love.
[SPEAKER_01]: And even though he is kind of still like our Bosch person, he gets extra points for having good taste in Fanny.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it is an interesting thing.
[SPEAKER_02]: He has not forgotten about her.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: He's still asking questions of Mary about her.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: At this point.
[SPEAKER_02]: And as far as Frank Churchill and Henry Crawford go, I think the thing that's most in common is like a Rakeish personality, a cheeky Rakeish personality.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: I have I feel like we've talked about the parallels between them before in just like the role that they play in the overall story.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, we've touched on this because I think what's important, and I think kind of where Frank and Henry live, we have our villains and we have our heroes in Jane Austen and I don't think Frank is villain.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, yeah, neither of them are villains and they're also not heroes.
[SPEAKER_02]: Henry is not a villain and he's not a hero.
[SPEAKER_02]: The question really is whether Henry can go from being a Frank Churchill type to being a better man.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, in Frank Churchill at the end of exactly that's, yeah, Frank Churchill makes the leap.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and can Henry do it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think love is the thing that turns them both around.
[SPEAKER_01]: Interesting question.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it, yeah, something to look out for.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, that concludes our patron study questions.
[SPEAKER_02]: We're gonna go into the back of study questions now.
[SPEAKER_02]: How does the introduction to Portsmith compare to Fanny's introduction to Mansfield Park?
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh my gosh.
[SPEAKER_02]: For chapter.
[SPEAKER_01]: Similar, actually, because both end with her, at the end of the night, being like fuck, what have I gotten myself into, over-simulated.
[SPEAKER_01]: Over-simulating wanting to cry, feeling like nobody loves her, and nobody wants her there.
[SPEAKER_02]: and just wanting to go home.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and she doesn't have a home to go to.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, now she does, but well, back in the first chapter, the difference is that she wanted to go home to Portsmouth.
[SPEAKER_02]: She wanted to go back to her family.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and now she wants to go home to Manceville Park.
[SPEAKER_02]: She wants to go back to her family.
[SPEAKER_01]: Wow, but it's like it's sad because I'll always compare stuff like this to the three sisters by our Guantan trek of because they are always like to Moscow to Moscow to Moscow.
[SPEAKER_01]: I want to go to Moscow back to the you know the setting of our childhood.
[SPEAKER_01]: And Fanny goes and she's like this isn't the
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, it's a highly dramatic comparison as well, but it's Lord of the Rings.
[SPEAKER_02]: Frodo and Sam make the journey to Mordor for the Shire.
[SPEAKER_02]: And when they return, the Shire is gone.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's still there, but it's gone for Frodo.
[SPEAKER_02]: He can't return.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: He's been too changed.
[SPEAKER_01]: It is.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's the same.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it goes back to the thing we talked about at the very beginning
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a really difficult question.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is part of the reason I don't think it's like Jane Austen's portrayal of the lower classes is entirely something to write up here.
[SPEAKER_02]: Obviously, like it's an unflattering portrayal of Mr. Price, it's an unflattering portrayal of this home, but there is something unflattering in the portrayal of Sir Thomas and Mansville Park too.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: No one's good in this book, except kind of fanny and kind of William, both of whom
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe Jane Austen is saying you have to have both.
[SPEAKER_02]: You have to be both.
[SPEAKER_02]: You have to be both.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, I think she's making a comment about the rigidity of the classes.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_02]: And what it does to people, because the Bertrams are the classes been cancerous on their their souls.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like starting from the base of the search homies, owns enslaved persons on a plantation in Antica that funds their whole lifestyle and none of his children have instilled the capacity to act on principal and morals.
[SPEAKER_02]: And at the lower level, nobody imports myth in this home understands how to act appropriately and nobody understands how to treat Fanny with Karen love.
[SPEAKER_02]: This like, horridity to a young woman who has come to live with them.
[SPEAKER_02]: And the people who are acting most from their guts with people who have had to move in and out of their classes.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, this is an interesting thing to like experience how other people exist in the world so that you know how to exist in the world.
[SPEAKER_01]: Hmm.
[SPEAKER_02]: Exactly.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, what is Jane Austen telling us?
[SPEAKER_02]: I think we've kind of covered this, but what is Jane Austen telling us about Fanny through her interactions with her family?
[SPEAKER_01]: that she has shifted in her status, like in the room, like going from being the highest person in the room to the lowest person in the room to the highest person in the room, but to the hang on.
[SPEAKER_01]: How do I want to say this?
[SPEAKER_02]: too high to be included.
[SPEAKER_02]: Exactly.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, too high for the need to be included.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: And also, it's just been too long.
[SPEAKER_02]: They just don't know her anymore.
[SPEAKER_01]: They don't know her.
[SPEAKER_01]: And she has this image of them from when she was last there that she was hoping to go back to, but they've all moved on from her.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: Next question is going to be about our guy Mr. Price.
[SPEAKER_02]: He is obviously and palpably in this chapter of Annie's biggest disappointment.
[SPEAKER_02]: How does he compare to Sir Thomas, her other father figure, and considering Jane Austen's focus on Sir Thomas, how does that play into what we're learning about Mr. Price?
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, first of all, I want to say that reading this chapter, I was like, girl really struggles with father figure.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, she has daddy issues in that she has simply not had a good father figure in her life.
[SPEAKER_02]: And the fucked up thing is that Mr. Price is so bad that I think she is thinking fondly of circumstances.
[SPEAKER_01]: She is, and that's frustrating because the last thing
[SPEAKER_02]: The last thing that happened is that he said, wouldn't it be fun if you visited your family and what's Smith?
[SPEAKER_02]: But we know that he did that to try to show her how shitty her life would be.
[SPEAKER_02]: If she doesn't marry Henry Crawford.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that the reason why we're focusing so much on Mr. Price and how much of a disappointment he has to her is so that
[SPEAKER_01]: We can maybe understand why Fanny would feel that way and like why she would miss him.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: But gosh neither of them are good.
[SPEAKER_02]: Nope.
[SPEAKER_02]: Not a great book for men's so far.
[SPEAKER_02]: No.
[SPEAKER_02]: Except William.
[SPEAKER_01]: Except our boy.
[SPEAKER_02]: Our little king who is just so sweet and just doing his best out there.
[SPEAKER_02]: Just doing his best.
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, last question before the stand buys.
[SPEAKER_02]: So we have a whole new cast of characters now.
[SPEAKER_02]: We have left behind almost every other character.
[SPEAKER_02]: We have spent the whole book with so far.
[SPEAKER_02]: We left behind the Bertrams.
[SPEAKER_02]: We've left behind the Crawfords.
[SPEAKER_02]: We've left behind the grants.
[SPEAKER_02]: Everybody we know.
[SPEAKER_02]: How if at all do you think those characters, the ones we've left behind will come back into the book?
[SPEAKER_01]: I was really hoping that Henry Crawford was going to like show up in Portsmouth, but I think he must remain a character in this book.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like if anyone is going to come back and like be part of the rest of the story, it's got to be him, whether through letters or a trip or whatever, like he has to show up in some way.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I don't know, like, oh, man, like we got to find out what happens between admin and Mary.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I don't know if that's going to happen through a letter or what, but I do think that those three are the most important that we need to hear from.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think they're going to they're going to come back in some way.
[SPEAKER_01]: It would be.
[SPEAKER_01]: Fucked up, but potentially, like I could potentially see Edmund coming to see her and telling her that he and Mary got engaged or something like that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Jane Austen, the saddest.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, exactly.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, funny quote.
[SPEAKER_01]: All right.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is just the narrator.
[SPEAKER_01]: But though she had seen all the members of the family, she had not yet heard all the noise they could make.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then proceed to tell us how much noise they can make questions moving forward.
[SPEAKER_01]: When will William leave?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like how many days do we get with him?
[SPEAKER_01]: How long is Fannie going to last here?
[SPEAKER_01]: And will she and Susan befriend each other?
[SPEAKER_02]: who wins the chapters.
[SPEAKER_01]: In my notes, I wrote that I wanted to give it to Betsy, because...
[SPEAKER_02]: Heaven's to Betsy?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, because she's adorable.
[SPEAKER_01]: She's very cute.
[SPEAKER_01]: And also because, like, she wanted to share her little knife secret with Fanny, and everybody else has been ignoring her.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, William obviously always gets a win.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, William, well, it's the first time in a while, William and Kevin Fanny the win.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and William and Betsy are both good picks for this chapter.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I just felt like, I didn't want to give it to Fanny in this one because I felt like it would be a pity yet.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, are you giving it to her out of pity?
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I didn't want to do that.
[SPEAKER_02]: OK. That goes to Betsy then.
[SPEAKER_02]: We love the little girl.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, we do.
[SPEAKER_02]: All right listeners that concludes this episode of Pot and Pregidas for next time We're gonna read the next two chapters both kind of short chapters eight and nine of volume the third or if you're in an unvalued book Chapter 39 and 40 Molly are you ready to get into the 40s on this book?
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh my god I cannot wait is this this isn't the longest one we've read though, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Emma is the only one who's comparable.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Persuasion was like so brief and like light.
[SPEAKER_02]: By comparison, Mansfield's a hearty, hearty read and it takes place over years.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_02]: So until next time, stay proper.
[SPEAKER_01]: And keep your hands off your sister's knife.
[SPEAKER_01]: Sounds great.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Hot and Pajadis is edited by Molly Birdick and audio produced by Graham Cook.
[SPEAKER_01]: Our show art is designed by Torrance Brown.
[SPEAKER_01]: Our show is transcribed by speech docs, podcast transcription.
[SPEAKER_01]: For transcripts, and to learn more about our team, check out our website atpotandpajadis.com.
[SPEAKER_01]: To keep up with the show, you can follow us on social media at Pot and Pajadis.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Stay proper.