CHARLIE KIRK SHOOTING BOMBSHELL: Video of Suspect's Trans Lover Lance Twiggs

Tyler Robinson's romantic partner,  Lance Twiggs'  account of learning that he lover  shot Charlie Kirk detailed in court as Twiggs' police interview was played in court today. At least part of it. Portions were redacted by the court.  Erika Kirk and Charlie Kirk's parents are fighting for his full  interview to be released. 

As the  preliminary hearing continues, conspiracy theories abound. 

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker 1: Bombshell tonight we go straight into the Charlie Kirk shooting.

Speaker 1: Hearing good evening. I mean, see, Grace, this is crime Stories.

Speaker 1: I want to thank you for being with us.

Speaker 2: My name is Lance Twigs. And do you know Tyler Robinson? Yes?

Speaker 2: I do, well, yeah, I do. And this is the

Speaker 2: same Tyler Robinson that's been charged with the shooting of

Speaker 2: Charlie Kirk.

Speaker 3: Yes, all right, So you said when you first met

Speaker 3: you were roommates. Uh, yeah, okay, and then at some

Speaker 3: point your relationship progressed? Is something more than a roommates

Speaker 3: that right?

Speaker 2: When was that?

Speaker 4: I think we started dating two or three months after

Speaker 4: he moved in Okay? And where did you live at

Speaker 4: that time, Saint George? In an apartment complex?

Speaker 3: And is that apartment in the same place you lived

Speaker 3: when on September tenth?

Speaker 5: Yes to Dave Matt what's the latest, Nancy. It was

Speaker 5: a shocking day in court. Two big things happened. One,

Speaker 5: Lance Twigg said he's the roommate of Tyler Robinson, roommate

Speaker 5: and lover. He sat down with police in April and

Speaker 5: gave a very involved interview with them, and part of

Speaker 5: that was shown in court during the preliminary hearing heavily redacted,

Speaker 5: though it might have been there was a lot of

Speaker 5: very specific information about how they met and became roommates.

Speaker 1: Let's go straight back into the courtroom.

Speaker 2: Do you recognize that on the screen there?

Speaker 6: Yeah?

Speaker 2: Yeah? What do you recognize it as?

Speaker 4: That was the note under his keyboard that he was

Speaker 4: referring to in the first text of that chain. So

Speaker 4: where did you find this on his desk underneath his

Speaker 4: computer keyboard?

Speaker 2: And I assume you read it? Yeah? And then what

Speaker 2: did you do with it after you read it?

Speaker 4: I believe I just put it back down on the

Speaker 4: desk after I took a picture of it, Okay.

Speaker 3: And again, the time you read it was probably around

Speaker 3: eleven o'clock or so on the temp Yes, the night

Speaker 3: of September tenth. And did you ever see that again

Speaker 3: after you placed it back on his desk?

Speaker 2: No, I don't think I did.

Speaker 1: Day Matt, what about it, Nancy?

Speaker 5: In the video with Lance Twiggs and police, a question

Speaker 5: answer was going back and forth about a note that

Speaker 5: was found by Lance Twigs. All right, we found out

Speaker 5: later during text message examination by Utah Bureau of Investigation

Speaker 5: Agent Brian Davis on the stand we found out what

Speaker 5: that handwritten message was. Tyler Robinson told Lance Twig by

Speaker 5: text on the night of September tenth to go and

Speaker 5: look for a note under his keyboard for his computer.

Speaker 5: And that's what the picture is that they're talking about

Speaker 5: between Lance Twigs and police during his interview.

Speaker 1: Let's go straight back to the courtroom, so.

Speaker 7: This would have been from Tyler says, drop what you're

Speaker 7: doing look under your keyboard. Then Lance responds, he says what,

Speaker 7: and then he says, you're joking, right, and then Tyler says,

Speaker 7: I tried to delete that. Then Tyler says, I'm still okame.

Speaker 7: I love, but I'm stuck an arm for it a

Speaker 7: little while longer yet shouldn't be long until I can

Speaker 7: come home, but got to grab my rifle still. To

Speaker 7: be honest, I had hoped to keep this secret till

Speaker 7: I died of old age. I am sorry to involve you,

Speaker 7: and then Lance replies you weren't the one who did it, right,

Speaker 7: and Tyler says, I am, I'm sorry. Lance says I

Speaker 7: thought they caught the person, and then Tyler says, no,

Speaker 7: they grabbed some crazy old dude then interrogated someone in

Speaker 7: similar clothing I had planned to grab my rifle from

Speaker 7: the drop point shortly after, but most of that got

Speaker 7: side of town got locked down. It's quiet, almost enough

Speaker 7: to get out. There's one vehicle.

Speaker 8: Lingering, Dave Matt What more can you tell us that

Speaker 8: note handwritten by Tyler Robinson and found by Lance Twigs.

Speaker 5: A couple of things are important there one the no

Speaker 5: said I had the opportunity to take out Charlie Kirk,

Speaker 5: handwritten by Tyler Robinson and found by Lance Twiggs on

Speaker 5: the direction of Tyler Robinson. There was more testimony than

Speaker 5: we never saw. A lot of it was redacted. There

Speaker 5: was a lot of blank space on this interview with police.

Speaker 5: But I do in our mind to Nancy Lance Twiggs,

Speaker 5: he's been given immunity from prosecution in exchange for his testimony.

Speaker 1: What else does he know? A lot back to the courtroom.

Speaker 2: Do you recognize the person in these images?

Speaker 4: I wouldn't say with one hundred percent certainty just because

Speaker 4: of camera quality, but that looks like him in terms

Speaker 4: of the shoes, he's wearing, the sunglasses. I don't think

Speaker 4: i'd specifically seen him more wearing that hat, but he

Speaker 4: was usually wearing a hat. And then shean's so it definitely,

Speaker 4: especially the bottom. The last two definitely do look like him. Oh,

Speaker 4: they do look like Tyler.

Speaker 1: Robinson to date, Matt, What about it, Nancy.

Speaker 5: One of the things that happened in court was the

Speaker 5: direct identification of Tyler Robinson by Lance Twigs. Now, Lance

Speaker 5: Twigs identifies him, not one hundred percent, but he's saying

Speaker 5: that looks like him. Looks like the clothes he wears.

Speaker 5: You know, but camera angles not great, camera's not great.

Speaker 5: But yeah, looks like him. Can't be one hundred percent,

Speaker 5: but looks like him.

Speaker 1: Let's go straight back into the courtroom.

Speaker 7: Then Tyler says, I'm still came. I love, but I'm

Speaker 7: stuck an orm for it a little while longer yet

Speaker 7: shouldn't be long until I can come home, But got

Speaker 7: to grab my rifle still. To be honest, I had

Speaker 7: hoped to keep this secret until I died of old age.

Speaker 7: I am sorry to involve you, And then Lance replies,

Speaker 7: you weren't the one who did it, right, and Tyler says,

Speaker 7: I am, I'm sorry. Lance says I thought they caught

Speaker 7: the person, and then Tyler says, no, they grabbed some

Speaker 7: crazy old dude. Then interrogated someone in similar clothing. I

Speaker 7: had planned to grab my rifle from the drop point

Speaker 7: shortly after, but most of that side of town got

Speaker 7: locked down. It's quiet, almost enough to get out, but

Speaker 7: there's one vehicle lingering. Lance says why and Tyler says

Speaker 7: why did I do it? And Lance says yeah. Tyler

Speaker 7: says I had enough of his hatred. Some hate can't

Speaker 7: be negotiated out. If I'm able to grab my rifle unseen,

Speaker 7: I will have left no evidence. Going to attempt to

Speaker 7: retrieve it again. Hopefully they have moved on. I haven't

Speaker 7: seen anything in the news about them finding it. We'll

Speaker 7: update you shortly, or Charlie will update you by midnight.

Speaker 7: And then Lance says, all right, stay safe. How long

Speaker 7: have you been planning this and Tyler replies a bit

Speaker 7: over a week? I believe, So, lanceys, do you need

Speaker 7: it for hunting? And Tyler says no, My dad wanted

Speaker 7: to use it to use a high caliber for the

Speaker 7: rifle hunt. Judging from today, I say grabs gun does

Speaker 7: just find IDK? I think that was a two KSE scope.

Speaker 7: Lance says, geez, and then Tyler says, wemw home three

Speaker 7: point five hours Lance's drive safe and then Tyler says, delete.

Speaker 8: This exchange, Dave, Matt what more can you tell us.

Speaker 1: You know, Nancy.

Speaker 5: During the course of the testimony today at the preliminary hearing,

Speaker 5: we got a sense of what was taking place on

Speaker 5: the campus after the assassination of Charlie Kirk and the

Speaker 5: surrounding area by the text messages being sent from Tyler

Speaker 5: Robinson to his lover's Lash roommate, Lance Twiggs. Lance Twigs

Speaker 5: has been given immunity from prosecution, and we'll find out

Speaker 5: why later, I guess. But the one thing that you

Speaker 5: can take away from all of this is exactly what

Speaker 5: was happening in the search area as law enforcement was

Speaker 5: looking for the gun, and what Tyler Robinson was doing

Speaker 5: as he.

Speaker 1: Watched it happen.

Speaker 5: The fact that Tyler Robinson told Lance Twigs by text

Speaker 5: that he had been planning it for over a week.

Speaker 5: A couple of things come out of that. One.

Speaker 1: It appears that Lance.

Speaker 5: Twigs had no clue about what Robinson was planning to

Speaker 5: do and he was shocked by it. But part two

Speaker 5: is that when Lance Twiggs hears from Tyler Robinson the

Speaker 5: night of this assassination, he's admitting to doing it, admitting

Speaker 5: to etching into the bullets. Okay, memes, what responsibility do

Speaker 5: we have to turn somebody in? I mean that your

Speaker 5: first phone call nine to one one. Hey, I think

Speaker 5: my boyfriend slash roommate might have been the killer. I meant,

Speaker 5: wouldn't that be the first call you'd make? A quick word, Nancy,

Speaker 5: you have pointed this out many many times on this

Speaker 5: show and others. Friends, whatever you put on the internet,

Speaker 5: whatever you text, you can delete it all you want.

Speaker 1: It's not gone.

Speaker 5: That's why it's kind of amusing to me that Tyler

Speaker 5: Robinson would give a direction to Lance Twiggs, you know,

Speaker 5: to delete these messages like you, because he's bragging all

Speaker 5: along and how you committed the perfect crime.

Speaker 1: He can't be caught.

Speaker 5: The only thing is maybe he's got fingerprints left on

Speaker 5: the gun, right, But delete the messages and that'll clear everything.

Speaker 1: Yeah, doesn't work like that, Nate, eaton joining us. Some

Speaker 1: East Idaho news has gone to the crime scene and

Speaker 1: on quite a bit of investigative work. Nate, what did

Speaker 1: you see?

Speaker 9: Well, the first place I went was to the place

Speaker 9: where Charlie Kirk was actually shot. There in the Amphitheater

Speaker 9: outdoor area on the campus. It's a grassy area with

Speaker 9: different layers. People were sitting and standing in that location.

Speaker 9: There's also buildings surrounding it, so people were standing watching

Speaker 9: Charlie speak when that gunshot rang out, and you can

Speaker 9: see it's at the bottom of a tiered layer and

Speaker 9: directly in the line of sight of that Amphitheater is

Speaker 9: the low Sea building where investigators say Tyler Robinson made

Speaker 9: his way onto the roof and took one shot directly

Speaker 9: at Charlie Kirk. And there is no obstruction there, Nancy,

Speaker 9: nothing at all. It is a direct site, nothing in

Speaker 9: the way, and clearly was disturbing for so many and

Speaker 9: a life changing day for so many there on the

Speaker 9: spot on the Amphitheater where this horrible event happened. Now,

Speaker 9: this is a campus that was built on a hill,

Speaker 9: so it's layered. Not only is the Amphitheater layered, but

Speaker 9: the buildings around the Amphitheater are layered. So it's very

Speaker 9: easy to get onto the roof of these buildings. In fact,

Speaker 9: many of the buildings the roofs are sidewalks. You're walking

Speaker 9: on the sidewalk, you go down some stairs and then

Speaker 9: you enter the building, and that's just how the campus

Speaker 9: is structured. So it's not like there's all these tall

Speaker 9: buildings that you're having to climb up or work your

Speaker 9: way around to get on top. That's not what you're

Speaker 9: looking at here. Second place I went, so I was

Speaker 9: there in the Amphitheater, and then I went upstairs to

Speaker 9: the Hall of Flags, which the officer testified the other

Speaker 9: day in court. That's where he was stationed when the

Speaker 9: gun shot happened, and he running down the stairs. That's

Speaker 9: where he found the first gun holster, which apparently had

Speaker 9: nothing to do with this case, but he found it.

Speaker 9: And then he looked up he saw the low C building,

Speaker 9: and then he worked his way up there and noticed

Speaker 9: what he called the sniper's den, where there was a

Speaker 9: disturbance in the gravel on the roof of that building,

Speaker 9: and he was able to see see how someone from

Speaker 9: that position could shoot a gun and directly hit Charlie Kirk,

Speaker 9: who was in the Amphitheater area.

Speaker 1: Nate, you state that you went to a wooded area

Speaker 1: where you believe the gun and the gun towel was recovered.

Speaker 9: What did you learn, well, Nancy, I then worked my

Speaker 9: way over to the actual low Seed building. Now, I

Speaker 9: didn't think i'd be able to get anywhere near the roof.

Speaker 9: But what startled me most is that, as I mentioned,

Speaker 9: these buildings are in tiers, so at some portions you're

Speaker 9: looking up maybe about twelve fifteen feet. But as you

Speaker 9: walk around the building, there's a stairwell you can take up,

Speaker 9: which is presumably the same stairwell that Tyler Robinson took.

Speaker 9: You take it up and you're right there at the

Speaker 9: roof level. You don't have to really jump over anything

Speaker 9: other than a railing, which and now they have put

Speaker 9: up a fence. They've put up a chain link fence,

Speaker 9: so it would be more challenging to get on that roof.

Speaker 9: But at the time you could simply jump over a railing.

Speaker 9: You're on the roof, You do a few jumps from

Speaker 9: level to level, and you're there on the edge of

Speaker 9: the building. And then from there we've seen the surveillance

Speaker 9: footage where after the shot was fired, apparently Robinson took

Speaker 9: off across the building and then he jumped off about

Speaker 9: a twelve to fifteen foot drops, still not very far,

Speaker 9: and that's when he worked his way into the wooded area.

Speaker 9: We have heard about the wooded area. I was picturing

Speaker 9: kind of a lush forest. That's how a lot of

Speaker 9: people have described it. That's not what it is. There's

Speaker 9: a lot of trees, and it's a grated area. It

Speaker 9: kind of goes up, so you could walk up a hill.

Speaker 9: You wouldn't need hiking shoes for this, though. I mean,

Speaker 9: it's dirt, it's grass, it's pine trees, it's other trees,

Speaker 9: and being that it was September, there likely would have

Speaker 9: been foliage on these trees versus the wintertime or spring

Speaker 9: where they wouldn't have bloomed. But there's a kind of

Speaker 9: a row of trees separating the campus from other buildings

Speaker 9: from other homes in the neighborhood that you could easily

Speaker 9: hide something or try to hide something, which is apparently

Speaker 9: what Robinson did according to the police, And that is

Speaker 9: where they ended up finding the towel and then they

Speaker 9: found the gun, both of which they said had the

Speaker 9: DNA on it.

Speaker 1: Nate, how will what you learned be probative at trial?

Speaker 1: I mean, how can it be used by either the

Speaker 1: state or the defense.

Speaker 9: Well, we can already see that the state has used

Speaker 9: the surveillance footage showing him on the buildings, going building

Speaker 9: to building, and the fact that they said they found

Speaker 9: those items in the woods. I think had his DNA

Speaker 9: not been on those items would be much harder and

Speaker 9: the defense would would maybe try to poke holes in that.

Speaker 9: But the fact that his DNA was on it, and

Speaker 9: that this surveillance video appeared to show him with a

Speaker 9: long item down his pants as he was limping to

Speaker 9: try to go over to the campus, I think all

Speaker 9: of that will line up. The key here, of course,

Speaker 9: is all of the footage that they have. The footage

Speaker 9: that they have, the fact that it's easy to climb

Speaker 9: on top of the building, the fact that the amphitheater

Speaker 9: was open, wide open, the fact that there's multiple other

Speaker 9: buildings where people could easily get on top of. I

Speaker 9: think all of that will come into play to show

Speaker 9: that this was an area that was not super hard

Speaker 9: to get to.

Speaker 1: Nate eaton east Side Home News, what's the takeaway from

Speaker 1: what you learned at the crime scene.

Speaker 9: I think one of my takeaways, Nancy, is just how

Speaker 9: well one the area is far more compact than what

Speaker 9: I had seen on other videos on news clips. It

Speaker 9: seemed very wide and large and huge. This was a

Speaker 9: small area. I was able to walk that whole area

Speaker 9: in less than five minutes. I mean it, it is there.

Speaker 9: There's where Charlie was speaking. There's building building the chick

Speaker 9: fil A that they say Tyler Robinson went into after

Speaker 9: he visited the campus in the morning is right there,

Speaker 9: off to the side. And then there's the low See Building,

Speaker 9: which is straight ahead. You could yell from where Charlie

Speaker 9: Kirk was standing. You could yell and if someone was

Speaker 9: on the roof of the low See Building, if you

Speaker 9: yelled really loud, they could probably hear. You mean, is

Speaker 9: that close. It's not like we're talking yards and yards

Speaker 9: and yards away. It is close. It is within distance

Speaker 9: of seeing someone if you're looking, if you're noticing and

Speaker 9: definitely possibly hearing someone. I say that there is a

Speaker 9: water feature there, so that might muffle the sound, and

Speaker 9: if water was running that day, it could have caused

Speaker 9: some disturbances. Plus, if you're surrounded by people, you're not

Speaker 9: gonna hear it. But ultimately, I think the big takeaway

Speaker 9: for me is the area was so compact. One thing

Speaker 9: I do want to say about being in the courtroom, Nancy,

Speaker 9: is that Erica Kirk and Charlie Kirk's parents seemed to

Speaker 9: be consoling each other in a way. I noticed Erica

Speaker 9: Kirk putting her head on Charlie's mother's shoulder. It appeared

Speaker 9: at times that they were possibly praying, as their eyes

Speaker 9: were closed and they were looking down. I noticed during

Speaker 9: the break as they left that there was tissue that

Speaker 9: they had left on their a package of tissues that

Speaker 9: they had left on their bench, water bottles in there to,

Speaker 9: you know, in case they get thirsty. And then the

Speaker 9: end of the day they stood up and embraced for

Speaker 9: some time. I'm not talking five seconds. I'm talking thirty

Speaker 9: seconds to a minute. Erica Kirk and Charlie's mother and

Speaker 9: Erica's friends who are with her noticeably crying, Erica noticeably upset.

Speaker 9: This is when they were talking about the defense was

Speaker 9: arguing about certain evidence being admitted and the prosecution saying

Speaker 9: we need to admit it, and they clearly are paying

Speaker 9: attention to this. Erica seems very invested in this, even

Speaker 9: you know, looking directly at the witnesses. It's not like

Speaker 9: she's distracted at all. And that has been kind of

Speaker 9: the key takeaway for me in the courtroom. As two

Speaker 9: rows behind her. We have Tyler Robinson's parents sitting on

Speaker 9: the opposite end of the bench, and they obviously are

Speaker 9: in a completely different frame of mind because their son

Speaker 9: is on trial for this horrible, horrific crime. And he

Speaker 9: sits there smiling a little bit. I noticed, you know,

Speaker 9: before the proceedings he's talking with the attorneys. During the breaks,

Speaker 9: he's talking with the investigator kind of not not really joking,

Speaker 9: but smiling, laughing a little bit. At one point he

Speaker 9: did look over to me, because I was maybe three

Speaker 9: four feet away from him in the media box. We're

Speaker 9: right there. He did look over to me and give

Speaker 9: me kind of a friendly smile. But he has handcuffs

Speaker 9: on that are chained to his waistband, and then he

Speaker 9: has shackles on his feet, so he's not getting anywhere.

Speaker 9: And he's been dressed up every day in a suit

Speaker 9: and a tie and a dress shirt and dress shoes.

Speaker 9: And then at the end of the court hearing, they

Speaker 9: asked him to stand up and walk out, and at

Speaker 9: that moment I did not see if he made any

Speaker 9: contact with his family who was on the back row.

Speaker 9: But it's it's been interesting to see him there. He

Speaker 9: had a notebook in front of him. I didn't see

Speaker 9: him take one note. He did have a red pen

Speaker 9: that was handy with him. But he also I mentioned

Speaker 9: Erica Kirk is paying close attention to the proceedings. Tyler

Speaker 9: Robinson is paying close attention to the proceedings.

Speaker 1: To Dave Matt, what's the latest, Nancy?

Speaker 4: You know?

Speaker 5: Lance Twigg has been identified by many as Tyler Robinson's

Speaker 5: roommate and something more well, we already knew. He was

Speaker 5: given immunity from prosecution to provide testimony. Now the judge

Speaker 5: allowed in police surveillance video of his interview with cops

Speaker 5: when he was shown pictures of the alleged assassin of

Speaker 5: Charlie Kirk, and Lance Twigg says, yep looks like Tyler

Speaker 5: Robinson to me. Identification in court today that Tyler Robinson

Speaker 5: appears to be the alleged assassin of Charlie Kirk. Also Nancy,

Speaker 5: Charlie Kirk's widow, Erica, and his parents. They filed court

Speaker 5: papers this morning saying that the judge is preventing them

Speaker 5: from seeing all the evidence. Utah law provides for family

Speaker 5: members to not only be in court during test during

Speaker 5: trial testimony, a court hearing like this but it also

Speaker 5: allows for them to witness evidence in a meaningful way.

Speaker 5: And Erica Kirk and Charlie's parents say they're being prevented

Speaker 5: from that, saying there's hidden evidence and they want to

Speaker 5: see it. So that paperwork has been filed. We'll find

Speaker 5: out what happens in the coming days tonight.

Speaker 1: Wild conspiracy theories are abounding. What do we know? Well,

Speaker 1: take a listen to this.

Speaker 10: The theory that Charlie Kirk was killed by an explosive

Speaker 10: placed in his wireless mic is growing in popularity. And

Speaker 10: when you look at the re enactments done online side

Speaker 10: by side, you can't help but notice the way that

Speaker 10: the shirt moves, the way that the necklace moves, and

Speaker 10: the way that the body moves are so similar.

Speaker 1: What is she saying? That's from WFF news at TikTok White.

Speaker 1: I need to hear that again.

Speaker 10: The theory that Charlie Kirk was killed by an explosive

Speaker 10: place east in his wireless mic is growing in popularity,

Speaker 10: and when you look at the reenactments done online side

Speaker 10: by side, you can't help but notice the way that

Speaker 10: the shirt moves, the way that the necklace moves, and

Speaker 10: the way that the body moves are so similar.

Speaker 1: Joe Scott an online reenactment, is that real?

Speaker 6: Well, Nancy, you know this is the thing about it.

Speaker 6: I think a lot of people are getting this from

Speaker 6: If you remember a couple of years ago from the

Speaker 6: Israelis using explosive inside of pagers and they went after individuals,

Speaker 6: and they're extrapolating from that trying to make this like that.

Speaker 6: If you watch any of those videos with exploding pagers,

Speaker 6: there's a tremendous amount of damage that is done where

Speaker 6: you actually have kind of a blast radius and you

Speaker 6: see things that are like I remember one where the

Speaker 6: guys like in the vegetable aisle at the store and

Speaker 6: there are vegetables that are destroyed. That's sort of thing.

Speaker 6: These these pages blow apart. That's not what we're seeing

Speaker 6: in this clip with Charlie. And just let me explain

Speaker 6: something very very quickly. When his shirt balloons out, that's

Speaker 6: what's referred to as a transfer of kinetic energy. It's

Speaker 6: almost akin to taking a rock and imagine the most

Speaker 6: beautiful placid pool you've ever seen in your life and

Speaker 6: just chunking the rock right in the middle of it.

Speaker 6: What happens, Well, that energy from that rock striking that

Speaker 6: placid surface sends out waves. It's the same thing. That's

Speaker 6: why the shirt balloons out. That's why you might see

Speaker 6: a necklace move. You're talking about a high velocity rifle round, which,

Speaker 6: by the way, strikes him in the neck to the

Speaker 6: left of the mid line, creates a tiny defect. You

Speaker 6: can see blood at one point in time begin to

Speaker 6: pour out. This is not an explosive event. Explosions have

Speaker 6: a very distinctive nature to them. We're talking about where

Speaker 6: things are actually blown apart. You're gonna have shrapnel, You're

Speaker 6: gonna have secondary, second, secondary damage relative to other items

Speaker 6: that are surrounding that area. That dog don't hunt.

Speaker 1: I'm sorry to doctor Sherry Schwartz. Why are people obsessed

Speaker 1: with these conspiracy theories?

Speaker 11: So people become obsessed with conspiracy theories for a number

Speaker 11: of reasons. One of the in this situation, because it's

Speaker 11: Charlie Kirk and he was such a polarizing figure. People

Speaker 11: who feel socially or politically disempowered tend to latch onto

Speaker 11: conspiracy theories because they distrust institutions and experts. So that's

Speaker 11: kind of one of the most direct in this case

Speaker 11: that I believe makes people so obsessed with conspiracy theories,

Speaker 11: But generally speaking, we become obsessed with them because when

Speaker 11: something happens that's so horrifying. And this is horrifying no

Speaker 11: matter how you feel about somebody like Charlie k a

Speaker 11: young man, a father, a husband, was killed in broad daylight,

Speaker 11: out in the open where there were thousands of people

Speaker 11: there watching, And this makes us have a sense of terror,

Speaker 11: a sense of fear, because if it can happen to

Speaker 11: Charlie Kirk, it can happen to anyone. So believing the

Speaker 11: conspiracy theories that there was some special conspiracy against Charlie Kirk,

Speaker 11: it gives us the security to know that we wouldn't

Speaker 11: be targets. In the same way, we feel a little

Speaker 11: bit safer. It gives us some control and a little

Speaker 11: bit of control over the narrative as well.

Speaker 1: To Philip Debay, dare I ask it way in, I.

Speaker 12: Would love this TikToker on my jury, frankly, because in

Speaker 12: a case like this, where the evidence is seemingly rock solid,

Speaker 12: you need to fracture that jury with such great differences

Speaker 12: of opinion that they'll never garner unanimity. Now, as a

Speaker 12: practical matter, the prosecution is going to hammer this idea

Speaker 12: that the medical examiner recovered a bullet fragment from Charlie

Speaker 12: Kirk's body. So unless you have evidence that that bullet

Speaker 12: fragment was in fact a microphone fragment, I think she

Speaker 12: needs to shut the hell up.

Speaker 1: One conspiracy beyond the pale claiming that Charlie Kirk is

Speaker 1: actually alive.

Speaker 13: What if Charlie Kirk is still alive, if he was

Speaker 13: in grave danger and someone was threatening his life and

Speaker 13: it was it was bad, and the idea came up

Speaker 13: to fake the assassination and put him in witness protection,

Speaker 13: you really wouldn't have to convince his friends and family.

Speaker 13: Most of them would say, absolutely, let's do this to

Speaker 13: protect him. Now, nobody's crying. Erica throws a few tears

Speaker 13: here and there, but it would make sense with how

Speaker 13: they're acting.

Speaker 1: That from Safe Haye Baby Boxes on TikTok Okay Joe

Speaker 1: Scott Morgan. To further that conspiracy, you would have to

Speaker 1: have the entire medical Examiner's office in on it. You

Speaker 1: would have to have the funeral home. Let's see the

Speaker 1: footage of Erica Kirk kissing her dead husband's hand you'd

Speaker 1: have to have the funeral home in on it, everybody

Speaker 1: that works at the funeral home. Is that even feasible?

Speaker 1: Joe Scott Morgan that the medical examiner would take part

Speaker 1: in a wild conspiracy, faking his autopsy, submitting official autopsy reports,

Speaker 1: even taking the thing to a hearing. What about it,

Speaker 1: Joe Scott, give me a.

Speaker 6: Break, Nancy, what are you talking about. You're talking about

Speaker 6: the faking of his death. This is so incredibly absurd

Speaker 6: because you mentioned the medical examiner staff, Yet they would

Speaker 6: have to be on board. And it's not just the

Speaker 6: medical examiner's staff. Utah has a state medical examiner. So

Speaker 6: you're telling me these people are saying, Okay, the chief

Speaker 6: medical Examiner for the state of Utah, who is, by

Speaker 6: the way, a board certified forensic pathologist, and all of

Speaker 6: his staff are going to be coming in and involving

Speaker 6: themselves in a conspiracy at the risk of their careers

Speaker 6: and their good name. Oh, by the way, I forgot

Speaker 6: to mention the ambulance crew, all of the police officers

Speaker 6: that were involved in this. Oh what else happened? Charlie

Speaker 6: went to the hospital, didn't he? So you're going to

Speaker 6: have a board certified surgeon that's gonna stick his neck out.

Speaker 6: How much money are they paying him in order to

Speaker 6: do this? Are what you're saying is are they threatening

Speaker 6: his life? If you don't do this, we're going to

Speaker 6: take you out. You have to sign on the dotted

Speaker 6: line that you treated this man. It just does not

Speaker 6: make sense whatsoever not to mention emergency room texts. We've

Speaker 6: got emergency room nurses, We've got surgical texts, surgical nurses,

Speaker 6: all of these people are in on this. This is

Speaker 6: just the height of lunacy.

Speaker 1: A Philip Dubay, The magnitude required of a conspiracy theory

Speaker 1: like that to cover up the fact that Kirk's actually

Speaker 1: alive is insane. But if you put that to a

Speaker 1: jury and you got one wing nut yourr to buy

Speaker 1: into it, what do you think.

Speaker 12: Well, remember, I only need one from a defense standpoint

Speaker 12: to either hang it or to just cause a retrial

Speaker 12: and a mistrial. So if I can get that type

Speaker 12: of conspiracy theories nut on the jury, that is a

Speaker 12: victory for the client. Now, the practical reality of it

Speaker 12: is it's going to be hard to juxtapose that against

Speaker 12: the well attended funeral that they had for Charlie Kirk

Speaker 12: and how they would explame his corpse in a casket

Speaker 12: would defy common sense and defy logic. So I think

Speaker 12: that even though it may initially fracture a jury, I

Speaker 12: could see the rest of the jury talking her out

Speaker 12: of that theory, and in the end it could backfire

Speaker 12: on the defense because it would alienate the jury. And

Speaker 12: from a defense standpoint, you want to maintain some degree

Speaker 12: of integrity and credibility because remember it's a death case.

Speaker 12: If you lose in the guilt phase, they can hold

Speaker 12: these shenanigans against the defense during the penalty phase and

Speaker 12: render a death verdict. So it's dangerous.

Speaker 1: Doctor Sherry Schwartz joining us, a forensic psychologist specializing in

Speaker 1: capital mitigation and author. Doctor Sherry, do these people have

Speaker 1: any idea the suffering they are causing Kirk's family by

Speaker 1: these far fetched theories like he's still alive?

Speaker 11: The truth is that when people are engaging in this

Speaker 11: type of talk, it's very easy because Charlie Kirk is

Speaker 11: and in front of them, Erica Kirk and mister Kirk's

Speaker 11: parents not in front of them, and so what happens

Speaker 11: is it's easy to dehumanize them and forget that they're

Speaker 11: a factor in this. And when we start dehumanizing people,

Speaker 11: we don't realize the impact that it has. The fact

Speaker 11: of the matter is Erica Kirk is a young widow

Speaker 11: whose husband was killed very publicly. Same for his parents.

Speaker 11: They are now without their son and they can never

Speaker 11: get him back, and he was taken in this brutally

Speaker 11: horrible way. And really I wish the TikTokers and everybody

Speaker 11: else would stop to think about if they were in

Speaker 11: that situation, if it was their family member, how they

Speaker 11: might feel about everybody saying, oh, he's alive and well somewhere,

Speaker 11: but you all just don't know it. It's really hurtful

Speaker 11: and it's very damaging to the victims.

Speaker 1: Another favorite conspiracy theory out there is that the Kirk

Speaker 1: murder was ordered by the US government to distract from

Speaker 1: the Epstein files.

Speaker 14: We as American people, deserve to have every EPSTEIN file

Speaker 14: released with no redactions whatsoever, period. And so yesterday, I

Speaker 14: don't want to comment because a lot of these people

Speaker 14: are my friends, but they got to make it right,

Speaker 14: and we the American people, ran on transparency. We deserve

Speaker 14: to see the entire client list, every document, the government

Speaker 14: has regarding the Epstein files, we the American people should

Speaker 14: have on an easy to access website immediately, in a

Speaker 14: very very quick fashion. I'm pushing for that, both privately

Speaker 14: and publicly, just so you know.

Speaker 1: Is it safe to come out, because I've been arguing

Speaker 1: that the Epstein file should be made public, the entire

Speaker 1: files from day one. Insane ridiculous to somehow rope in

Speaker 1: the Epstein files into this brutal murder. Scott Morgan jump in.

Speaker 6: How many other people have actually made this statement as well?

Speaker 6: Just in my friend group alone, everyone has wanted to

Speaker 6: do it. I've commented on the Epstein files, bring them on,

Speaker 6: I want them to release the list. Does that mean

Speaker 6: that I'm a target? How about everybody else, every other

Speaker 6: high profile person. Why is it that they would single

Speaker 6: out Charlie Kirk for this and don't come at me

Speaker 6: with this nonsense of well you don't understand what an

Speaker 6: impact he had. There's a lot of people that have

Speaker 6: impact out there that are saying the same thing. So

Speaker 6: is this a motivation for him being taken out? No,

Speaker 6: I don't think that it is at all. I think

Speaker 6: that there are a lot of people clamoring for this information.

Speaker 6: There's a lot of information that should be made public.

Speaker 6: It doesn't necessarily mean that he's a target of an

Speaker 6: assassination simply based upon that.

Speaker 1: What do you make of that one, Doctor Sherry, I.

Speaker 11: Think it's so important to consider sources when we are

Speaker 11: hearing these things such as the Epstein and files are

Speaker 11: part of the reason that Charlie Kirk was brutally murdered

Speaker 11: in broad daylight. Demand evidence and think critically. This is

Speaker 11: what I tell my college students. There is absolutely no

Speaker 11: evidence that I've seen that there's any relation between Charlie

Speaker 11: Kirk and the release of the Epstein files. And why

Speaker 11: would somebody need to murder Charlie Kirk over these files

Speaker 11: that have These two events are completely unrelated. And again

Speaker 11: this goes back to how hurtful it is to the family.

Speaker 11: They're also victims of this crime. They are co victims,

Speaker 11: is what we call them, and they have to listen

Speaker 11: to this and manage this every single day. But when

Speaker 11: you're engaging in that kind of talk, you're just latching

Speaker 11: onto things that make no sense.

Speaker 1: What about it, Philip Dubay that the murder was ordered

Speaker 1: by the US government. Is there a way to actually

Speaker 1: get government conspiracy theorists on your jury. Is that what

Speaker 1: the defense is going to.

Speaker 12: Do, of course, And the first thing that I would

Speaker 12: do is I would want to know the occupation of

Speaker 12: the Veneerman. I would want those DMV workers. I would

Speaker 12: want people who work at the counter for Social Security

Speaker 12: and Medicare and the Registrar of voters, and maybe even

Speaker 12: who handle the administrative claims for the large HMO organizations,

Speaker 12: because there's such tremendous distrust in management. They have seen

Speaker 12: firsthand how people get railroaded, blamed, and thrown under the bus.

Speaker 12: So I could actually envision one or two jurors in

Speaker 12: those professional capacities wondering the same thing and perhaps having

Speaker 12: reasonable doubt.

Speaker 15: I think she works for the present class, and that

Speaker 15: she was hired to be Charlie Kirk's handler because Charlie

Speaker 15: Kirk was such an influential part of the Christian movement

Speaker 15: through Turning Point USA. I think that the oppressors that

Speaker 15: Erica was working for really wanted to use Turning Point

Speaker 15: USA to try to sway the younger generation and manipulate

Speaker 15: them and control a narrative around Christianity, because that's what

Speaker 15: they do.

Speaker 1: Okay, I'm not quite sure what that is. Even claiming

Speaker 1: something about Erica Kirk being an elite fixer, What is

Speaker 1: she saying, Doctor Sherry, What do you make of the

Speaker 1: continued attacks on Erica Kirk.

Speaker 11: Yes, I've even heard some of the conspiracy theories about

Speaker 11: that maybe she had some role in his death so

Speaker 11: that she could take over. What's shocking and really deeply

Speaker 11: troubling to me as a psychologist is how much vitriol

Speaker 11: this poor woman Erica Kirk has been subject to since

Speaker 11: her husband was brutally murdered. She's a young widow, she's

Speaker 11: a mom, she is an American who's trying to live

Speaker 11: her life every day and manage this horrible tragedy and

Speaker 11: having to live it out in the public square. And

Speaker 11: the hatred from high level people, from some people that

Speaker 11: I would classify as respected podcasters that have some air

Speaker 11: of authority about knowledge about things, that really don't have

Speaker 11: any kind words for her, And I really don't understand that.

Speaker 11: And I think that they especially have a responsibility to

Speaker 11: set the tone in the pace and accept that this

Speaker 11: is somebody who's grieving and she's entitled to that grief

Speaker 11: and you don't have to like her, but you don't

Speaker 11: have to attack her.

Speaker 1: The attacks on Erica Kirk keep coming.

Speaker 16: Listen, Erica Kirk keeps getting weirder and weirder. That's an

Speaker 16: M and a G. That's not her initials, and that's

Speaker 16: not Charlie Kirk's initials. Look at how she doesn't have

Speaker 16: any smearing of her mass Garrett pressure TOPUSA just got

Speaker 16: millions and millions of dollars, but she needed to put

Speaker 16: out this fundraiser right after his memorial. Doesn't that seem

Speaker 16: a little bit suspicious? I believe they're all just running

Speaker 16: cover for what they're doing. Right here, it's very easy

Speaker 16: to put on some prost and then right when you're

Speaker 16: supposed to queue up, Look there's no blood on the ground.

Speaker 16: It would just be spewing everywhere. It seems like a

Speaker 16: much simpler explanation that they could have just put a

Speaker 16: little patrate here and made it go, which is exactly

Speaker 16: what it looked like.

Speaker 1: Okay, that's modern shaman media. It's amazing to me to

Speaker 1: Joe Scott Morgan that so many people are focusing on

Speaker 1: attacking Erica Kirk instead of focusing on the fact that

Speaker 1: Charlie Kirk was gunned down in broad daylight, sitting on

Speaker 1: a stage. It's like everyone's doing backflips to proof somehow

Speaker 1: that Tyler Robinson didn't do it.

Speaker 6: I don't. It's hard for me to fathom how anyone

Speaker 6: could fake this event. I've heard all kinds of things,

Speaker 6: including that this was some kind of digital image that

Speaker 6: everybody was subjected to and the whole event was a

Speaker 6: complete digital HALLUSA Nation. I guess that we've all bought

Speaker 6: into that it didn't actually happen, that there were some

Speaker 6: kind of special cameras or mirrors that were around, you know,

Speaker 6: almost like it's some kind of sideshow of Las Vegas

Speaker 6: magic trick that this did not happen. This is not

Speaker 6: David Copperfield making the statue of Liberty disappear. This is

Speaker 6: a man that was a victim of a firearms related homicide.

Speaker 6: It is that simple. This is a murder investigation and

Speaker 6: it has been worked as such, and right now we're

Speaker 6: finding out more and more about it that will go

Speaker 6: to disprove a lot of this nonsense it's being spewed

Speaker 6: out there.

Speaker 1: What about it, Debai?

Speaker 12: I think this conspiracy theorist's idea would make perfect sense

Speaker 12: if this were a civil, wrongful death trial, because in

Speaker 12: that context, it would be based on a theory of

Speaker 12: negligence where the venue is on notice that dangerous third

Speaker 12: parties could be coming inside the venue and they don't

Speaker 12: take enough precautions to prevent this type of foreseeable harm.

Speaker 12: But that's not the posture we're in. We're not in

Speaker 12: a situation where the university or the venue is getting

Speaker 12: sued for not having proper security and therefore they should

Speaker 12: be held liable. This is a criminal trial where criminal

Speaker 12: liability personally attaches to Tyler Robinson if he was in

Speaker 12: fact the gunman. So I think that his point may

Speaker 12: be well taken in a civil form, but not in

Speaker 12: a criminal one.

Speaker 1: Doctor Sherry Schwartz Way.

Speaker 11: In, Well, this goes to buying into conspiracy theories because

Speaker 11: you feel politically and socially disempowered, disenfranchised, so you don't

Speaker 11: trust institutions. These are the people who are going to

Speaker 11: latch on to this idea that Tyler Robinson didn't do it.

Speaker 11: And I'll tell him myself a little bit, not that

Speaker 11: I ever thought he didn't do it, but I didn't

Speaker 11: really pay super close attention to this, and I also

Speaker 11: just based on headlines. This is why it's so important

Speaker 11: to go deeper than that and do your own research.

Speaker 11: I actually had a sense that, oh, the prosecutors being

Speaker 11: censured for something. I saw some headline about that. Well,

Speaker 11: maybe they did get the wrong guy. And then in

Speaker 11: preparing for this, I read a little bit deeper. I mean,

Speaker 11: his DNA is on a towel, his roommate boyfriends DNA

Speaker 11: is on a towel, There's other things. He left a note.

Speaker 11: So when you do a little bit deeper level of research,

Speaker 11: you recognize that they probably do have the right guy.

Speaker 11: His own father turned him in or facilitated him turning

Speaker 11: himself in. These are all very big pieces of credible

Speaker 11: evidence that they have the right guy.

Speaker 1: Yet another conspiracy theory.

Speaker 16: I think it's a sign of just like him getting

Speaker 16: shot and Charlie Kirk thing.

Speaker 17: I can't even go to a baseball game and bring

Speaker 17: in a canadike oak the baseball game or a concert

Speaker 17: without a metal detector or them NV in my pockets.

Speaker 1: It doesn't even apply here. No one was going in

Speaker 1: a stadium. It was an open area venue. There is

Speaker 1: not a metal detector that can be used for a

Speaker 1: giant field of people. I agree or disagree We.

Speaker 6: Have a quad at my university. I'm a I'm a

Speaker 6: college professor. We have events out on the quad all

Speaker 6: the time. It's immediately adjacent my office. As a matter

Speaker 6: of fact, I can stand at my office when to

Speaker 6: look out over it. I've never seen a metal detector

Speaker 6: out there. And you know, the fact is it's a

Speaker 6: space for free speech. And Charlie Kirk, you know, God

Speaker 6: rest his soul. And I understand that he is high profile.

Speaker 6: He ain't the president of the United States. All right,

Speaker 6: that's that's not That's not part and parcel of this. Now,

Speaker 6: was it was? Was there a lack of attention to security? Yeah? Probably? Uh,

Speaker 6: And I'm by no means a security expert. If it

Speaker 6: had been me, I probably would have had people watching

Speaker 6: the rooftops, particularly if there were any suspected threats against him.

Speaker 6: I would have had more people deployed out there just

Speaker 6: handling it. The local constabularies, not just the campus police.

Speaker 6: You would bring in some of your law enforcement partners.

Speaker 6: But yeah, do I think that there was what's the

Speaker 6: term they use now, intentionality? Is that that term that

Speaker 6: they use? I hate that word, but let's just use

Speaker 6: it right now and just say that there was intentionality

Speaker 6: on the part of these individuals to deprive Charlie of security. Therefore,

Speaker 6: if that's what is being suggested, all of their fingers

Speaker 6: are on the proverbial trigger here. They're all part and

Speaker 6: parcel and party to a homicide that has been committed

Speaker 6: Ain Biden.

Speaker 1: The testimony in the hearing has opened up a whole

Speaker 1: another her arterial flood of conspiracy theories regarding the bullet.

Speaker 6: When when a weapon is cleared, an officer would make

Speaker 6: his rifle ready, which would chamber around.

Speaker 1: Oh, I got you. My understanding was that that's how

Speaker 1: that was accounted for.

Speaker 13: So an officer claimed it that bullet belonged to him

Speaker 13: or her.

Speaker 16: That's my recollection is that that that was how it

Speaker 16: was accounted for.

Speaker 1: And when when was that accounted for? I don't know specifically.

Speaker 1: Do you remember what type of bullet that was? I

Speaker 1: don't Was it a thirty odd six?

Speaker 2: Do you remember?

Speaker 17: I don't.

Speaker 1: Okay. Do you know where that bullet is now? I don't. Okay.

Speaker 1: There you see David Agent David Hall on the stand.

Speaker 1: The defense attorney is leading him down the garden path,

Speaker 1: and she's setting up a claim that the bullet did

Speaker 1: not come from Tyler Robinson's weapon significance. That opens up

Speaker 1: a line of questioning as to the real killer. Now,

Speaker 1: jo Scott Morgan, we know that the fragment that was

Speaker 1: recovered is how can I say deformed? It is destroyed.

Speaker 1: It's a fragment of a bullet, just enough left to

Speaker 1: see the circumference at the bottom to prove it's from

Speaker 1: a thirty odd to six. But whether it came from

Speaker 1: that gun cannot be proven by the striations the markings

Speaker 1: on the bullet. They're going to have a field day.

Speaker 6: Bullets are deformed all of the time. That's the nature

Speaker 6: of bullets. They are lead core projectiles that are encased

Speaker 6: in a copper jacket. Those are soft metals. Guess what

Speaker 6: happens when they strike a surface. They fragment, They wind

Speaker 6: up deformed. They particulate. Okay, that's one of the purposes

Speaker 6: for a projectile. Do they do that? Well? They do

Speaker 6: it in order to destroy as much tissue as they

Speaker 6: possibly can. And guess what with this thirty O six

Speaker 6: round that was fired at Charlie Kirk. It was highly effective.

Speaker 6: It did its job. It's a man killer as well.

Speaker 6: You can't ask him now but our troops in World

Speaker 6: War One killed thousands of people with these rounds. It

Speaker 6: was specifically made for that. This is the round that

Speaker 6: they carried in the nineteen o three is what it

Speaker 6: was referred to, bolt action rifle. That's what our troops carried.

Speaker 6: They still used it. Our sniper still used it in

Speaker 6: World War II. It's a highly effective round. Grandpa and

Speaker 6: great Grandpa used it to hunt deer with. Why do

Speaker 6: they use it well? Because it's highly effective, and yes,

Speaker 6: rounds do in fact fragment. Now, is it being suggested

Speaker 6: that this poor cameraman is out there, what does he have?

Speaker 6: Was he supplied with this by some kind of unknown

Speaker 6: foreign agency. He's got a weapon hidden inside of his camera,

Speaker 6: and let me guess the buttons on the camera that

Speaker 6: actuates the firing pin in there and around what travels

Speaker 6: out of where the lens is supposed to be. And

Speaker 6: he was just positioned just right to strike Charlie in

Speaker 6: the neck. Let me tell you what's going to happen

Speaker 6: that people are not aware of, or maybe they're just

Speaker 6: kind of ignoring right now, that view that we have

Speaker 6: of Charlie, that static view that we have where he

Speaker 6: is seated, that ain't the only view there is, that's

Speaker 6: not the only videography that exists. It's from all points

Speaker 6: of the compass. What are you going to suggest, then again,

Speaker 6: another mass hallucination that everybody's phones were impacted and their

Speaker 6: cameras were compromised. Is that the road that we're going

Speaker 6: to go now, Well, best of luck with that because

Speaker 6: it is just not going to match up with what

Speaker 6: is going to be described in court when this came

Speaker 6: does in fact go to trial.

Speaker 1: If you know or think you know anything about the

Speaker 1: shooting of Charlie Kirk dial toll free eight hundred two

Speaker 1: two five five three twenty four, We remember American Hero

Speaker 1: Special Agent Aaron Garcia, Union Pacific Rail PD, killed in

Speaker 1: the line of duty after just two years, leaving behind

Speaker 1: a grieving wife, Wanna, and sons Aaron and Andrew sentenced

Speaker 1: to life without dad. American Hero special Agent Aaron Garcia.

Speaker 1: Thank you to our guests, but especially to you for

Speaker 1: being with us. Nancy Gray signing off for tonight, but

Speaker 1: I'll see tomorrow night, and until then, good night, friend.