Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan: Buried with Head Sticking Out of Ground: The Brutal Murder of Sam Holthaus

Kenneth McNally shot 59-year-old Samuel Holthaus in the face, tied an extension cord around his neck and the other end to the victim's pickup truck, dragged the mortally wounded man more than 300 feet, buried most of his body in a shallow grave, leaving his head sticking out from the ground. Joseph Scott Morgan and Dave Mack discuss the death of a well-liked man, Samuel Holthaus, by a man who was on probation for attacking a dog with an axe.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker 1: Quality bouts with Joseph Scott More. I want you to

Speaker 1: think about a number really quick. A number I'm going

Speaker 1: to give you. It's not some kind of mind reading

Speaker 1: trick or anything. Here. Think about a number two, one, six,

Speaker 1: two hundred and sixteen. Now take that number and think

Speaker 1: about it in terms of years. I can tell you

Speaker 1: two hundred and sixteen years from now, I ain't gonna

Speaker 1: be here. I think I'd be just absolutely too tired

Speaker 1: to be here. But imagine, imagine if you will. You've

Speaker 1: committed in multiple crimes. They're so incredibly heinous that the

Speaker 1: courts in California have sentenced you to two hundred and

Speaker 1: sixteen years. Day. We're going to talk about an individual

Speaker 1: that has recently been sentenced and story I'm gonna lay

Speaker 1: on you today and what he did to wind up

Speaker 1: where he is, well, it's nothing short of a horse.

Speaker 2: Sorry.

Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is body Backs. So

Speaker 1: two hundred and sixteen years from now, Dave, if my

Speaker 1: calculations are correct, we will be in the year two thousand,

Speaker 1: two hundred and forty two. It reminds me of this

Speaker 1: what was that song from the sixties.

Speaker 2: In the year twenty five, twenty five, twenty five. By

Speaker 2: the way, Trivia Trivia, Zagar and Evans have the only

Speaker 2: song in the history of the Top forty that went

Speaker 2: from number one to completely.

Speaker 3: Off the charts. Never have noant No, it hadn't happen, se.

Speaker 1: I mean, it's just like it was.

Speaker 3: It was big forever.

Speaker 2: I mean it was like huge, huge, huge, big for weeks,

Speaker 2: I mean, number one song forever. And then it was

Speaker 2: like everybody stopped playing it the same day they went, Okay,

Speaker 2: we're done and it was gone.

Speaker 3: So from number one to off the charts, there you go.

Speaker 3: And now that I've.

Speaker 1: Ever really taken time to dissect that song, mate, is

Speaker 1: it was it too? I mean when you compare it

Speaker 1: to like the Archie Sugar Sugar, was it just too

Speaker 1: existential for everybody? I don't know. I'm just asking for

Speaker 1: a friend, all right, I'm trying to understand.

Speaker 2: I'll give you more trivia. Do you know who originally

Speaker 2: was supposed to record Sugar Sugar?

Speaker 3: The Monkeys? It was written for the monk.

Speaker 1: That kind of makes sense, that kind of makes sense.

Speaker 2: They refuse to record it. So the writers all said,

Speaker 2: the brillsty guys, it's fine don Kirscher, we'll do it ourselves.

Speaker 3: We don't need you.

Speaker 2: So they just got a bunch of studio people, get

Speaker 2: Ron Dante and a few others to go sing it.

Speaker 1: There you go and friends, do you see while love other? Dave, Oh,

Speaker 1: I could sit around with this man and have discussions

Speaker 1: with him about all kinds of things, particularly dealing with

Speaker 1: pop culture in the sixties and seventies, and particularly music.

Speaker 1: It's something that we both share a love for. But

Speaker 1: I got to tell you, Dave, there ain't too much

Speaker 1: love for the subject the centerate. Well, there was a

Speaker 1: lot of love for our victim, a lot, and that's

Speaker 1: evidenced in everything that came out afterwards about this. But

Speaker 1: I got to tell you this, this individual, this monster

Speaker 1: that committed these crimes, ain't too much love there.

Speaker 2: Let me tell you that family members said of Samuel Holtis,

Speaker 2: who is our victim, that he was a generous man

Speaker 2: who often cooked meals for homeless people. He was devoted

Speaker 2: to helping mankind. He cooked meals for homeless people. He

Speaker 2: didn't give him a dollar to go to McDonald's. He didn't,

Speaker 2: you know, he went and cooked me specifically for people

Speaker 2: without That's the kind of person our victim is today

Speaker 2: and when you hear what was done to him. It

Speaker 2: happened in Elkoholma, California, which is just outside of San Diego,

Speaker 2: southern California, when deputies responded to reports of a suspicious

Speaker 2: death on a property. The suspicious death was that basically,

Speaker 2: somebody tripped over a head sticking out of the dirt.

Speaker 2: Is that about right, Joe?

Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah it is. And can I tell you it's

Speaker 1: kind of getting in the wayback machine. And I think

Speaker 1: the name of this movie is correct. There was a movie,

Speaker 1: one of these horror movies, kind of schlocky kind of things,

Speaker 1: but it was really popular. I think it was called

Speaker 1: Motel Hell. Came out in the eighties and it was

Speaker 1: these people were burying people in the backyard and I

Speaker 1: think their heads were sticking up out of the ground.

Speaker 1: And got to tell you, Dave, when I when I

Speaker 1: heard about this, these circumstances, and listen, the burial part

Speaker 1: of it is the least of it. Oh yeah, and

Speaker 1: you know this, you know this mental moron here, uh

Speaker 1: he he didn't even have the ability to create a

Speaker 1: really good grave, right, So he's he's doing one or

Speaker 1: two things he's either ineffective at digging a grave or

Speaker 1: he's a sadist, the ultimate in sadist, where he's you know,

Speaker 1: it's almost like taunting the dead that you could be

Speaker 1: this disrespectful to the dead. And yeah, our victim here

Speaker 1: dave his head. He was buried so that his head

Speaker 1: was protruding up out of the ground in the shallow grave.

Speaker 2: Think about the effort, okay, of what you're doing a

Speaker 2: lot of times and I don't I don't try to

Speaker 2: get into the mind of those who would do murder.

Speaker 2: But you know, oftentimes when people do a crime and

Speaker 2: they dig a shallow grave, they put the body and

Speaker 2: cover it up in hopes that they'll get away. But

Speaker 2: this one, he went out to all the trouble to

Speaker 2: bury the body, but make sure the head was sticking up,

Speaker 2: so it wasn't It wasn't like he got in a hurry.

Speaker 3: He did it on purpose.

Speaker 2: And the thing is, in this area that we're looking

Speaker 2: in outside of alcohol Alcoholma, California, it was a six

Speaker 2: acre area that had a number of trailers house trailers

Speaker 2: on it and Ran Kenneth McNally Junior. He's the guy

Speaker 2: who was living in several different trailers over a period

Speaker 2: of time. He was not well liked, Joe. Kenneth McNally

Speaker 2: junior had problems with everybody, it seems, but he kept

Speaker 2: bouncing around. You know, he'd stay over here at this

Speaker 2: trailer for a little while, and then he'd go to

Speaker 2: another one for a while, and just continued to wear

Speaker 2: out his welcome. But I want you to take a

Speaker 2: look at what was taking place in the weeks before

Speaker 2: Samuel Haltis at the age of fifty nine, a guy

Speaker 2: who cooked meals for the homeless before he was killed.

Speaker 2: Kenneth McNally Junior has a lengthy criminal history. He was

Speaker 2: on probation for a conviction of attacking a dog with

Speaker 2: an axe. Think about that for just a minute. It

Speaker 2: wasn't enough to just you know, kick a dog or something. No, No,

Speaker 2: he attacked a dog with an axe and was convicted

Speaker 2: and was on probation for that.

Speaker 1: On his.

Speaker 2: Post release community service. You know when you have a

Speaker 2: probation officer, right, and he was on probation for attacking

Speaker 2: the dog with the axe.

Speaker 3: He had two documented attacks against his probation officer.

Speaker 1: Joe.

Speaker 2: Now, I thought that if something went bad with your

Speaker 2: probation officer that probably pulled your work and you pulled

Speaker 2: your paper, but you're back in jail, right, that's what

Speaker 2: I assumed happen.

Speaker 1: Yeah, back into the joint because you know, you have

Speaker 1: to think about this is demonstrative violence, obviously, I think

Speaker 1: that that's I'm the master of understatement today. All right,

Speaker 1: So when you come after a parole officer like this

Speaker 1: and you're going to attack them, I don't understand unless

Speaker 1: it just goes to the point of, well, it's easier

Speaker 1: just to keep him on the street because our prisons

Speaker 1: are full, you know, we can't accommodate him. Or in

Speaker 1: today's world with governmental oversight bosses this sort of thing.

Speaker 1: I can imagine a world where a government supervisor would

Speaker 1: look at a probation officer that was attacked and say,

Speaker 1: this is probably your fault, Like this happened to you

Speaker 1: at the hands of this person. It's not his fall.

Speaker 1: Well he has to be exsed.

Speaker 3: Let's add some more things that weren't his fault. Joe.

Speaker 2: You know I told you that he was living in

Speaker 2: the six acre compound with a number of different trailers.

Speaker 2: Well he threatened one resident with a handgun. Now, remember

Speaker 2: he's on probation for attacking a dog with an axe.

Speaker 2: Now he's threatening a human being with a gun. He

Speaker 2: fired sho several shots into another person's van and people

Speaker 2: living in the same compound with him in some of

Speaker 2: the trailers that he was living in from time to time,

Speaker 2: and he strangled a roommate while making incoherent statements before

Speaker 2: someone intervened. Now this is while on probation for attacking

Speaker 2: the dog, resisting a police officer, attacking the people that

Speaker 2: are providing him with shelter, and then the only reason

Speaker 2: he doesn't kill this one person is because somebody got

Speaker 2: in the middle of it and intervened, and he was

Speaker 2: still not put back in jail.

Speaker 1: This seems to be a theme that's running through a

Speaker 1: lot of cases that we're covering recently. Yeah, and listen,

Speaker 1: I know it goes without saying that this happens all

Speaker 1: the while. And I hate to use the term epidemic.

Speaker 1: Epidemic is that's a term that is used without much

Speaker 1: thought to it. You know, they will apply the term

Speaker 1: epidemic to other events and other things that occurring that

Speaker 1: are not There's not there's no underpinning from a scientific standpoint.

Speaker 1: This is this is an organizational behavior problem that leads

Speaker 1: to this. So you know, all signs point back to

Speaker 1: those that are in charge relative to how individuals are

Speaker 1: being handled. You know, it's it's amazing that people will

Speaker 1: sit back and say, I can't believe this happened. Well,

Speaker 1: you've been living in another universe, you're saying, and you

Speaker 1: can't believe this happened. And over and over again, we

Speaker 1: see violent offenders that are cut loose on the rest

Speaker 1: of us that are just trying to get by, trying

Speaker 1: to live our lives, trying to live in peace. And

Speaker 1: yet these people go uninterdicted, and it's a constant thing.

Speaker 1: They're always allowed, they're given more latitude, they're given more range,

Speaker 1: you know, to go out and bully people around, to

Speaker 1: make their lives horrible. How many women do we talk

Speaker 1: about on this show that are living in fear of

Speaker 1: domestic violence all the time, and nothing ever happens relative

Speaker 1: to the people until you know, those women, of course,

Speaker 1: they wind up on our show because they're murder victims,

Speaker 1: and you know, we wind up talking about some ghastly

Speaker 1: thing that has happened to them, and the forensics is unbelievable.

Speaker 1: You know, we sit there and you know, and we'll

Speaker 1: stand back and we'll say, wow, this is really really horrible. Well, Holmes,

Speaker 1: let me tell you something horrible could have been avoided.

Speaker 1: All right, it could have been avoided early on. But

Speaker 1: unfortunately we handle people like this with kid gloves and

Speaker 1: we don't want to do anything about it, or the

Speaker 1: authorities don't want to do anything about it because they're

Speaker 1: afraid that they're going to offend somebody, or they're afraid

Speaker 1: that they're going to violate I don't know whatever community

Speaker 1: norms there might be. Well, the one norm that we

Speaker 1: have as human beings is an expectation that we're going

Speaker 1: to be able to live a peaceful and fruitful life.

Speaker 1: You know, I'm sure that if you're living on six

Speaker 1: acres out outside of San Diego, you're not thinking that

Speaker 1: you're going to be living next door to a raving

Speaker 1: lunatic that attacks dogs with hatchets. And also you're not

Speaker 1: going to live adjacent to somebody who, for all that

Speaker 1: we know, was one of the most benevolent people around.

Speaker 1: That would help the least among us, who knew that

Speaker 1: the most benevolent could coexist in a world and in

Speaker 1: a space with the most malevolent brother Dave. Sometimes I

Speaker 1: sit back and I think, you know, she was. I

Speaker 1: see these cases that we talk about, particularly from a

Speaker 1: scientific standpoint, you think about just all of the havoc

Speaker 1: that has been visited upon victims, and you know, it's

Speaker 1: really easy to go through the science of it, I

Speaker 1: think to a certain degree. It can be rather complex

Speaker 1: many times, obviously, but the science part is the easy part.

Speaker 1: The explaining how we wound up where we're having to

Speaker 1: use science to explain things is the hard part to

Speaker 1: it right, And in this particular case, this poor man

Speaker 1: was subjected to just the ultimate in brutality day.

Speaker 2: Well, you know, we mentioned the type of man fifty

Speaker 2: nine year old Samuel Haltus was, but the type of

Speaker 2: man that Kenneth McNally Junior was. Well, here's what was

Speaker 2: happening September third, twenty twenty three. Okay, we've mentioned he's

Speaker 2: living in a compound, a six acre area with a

Speaker 2: number of trailers where people live, and McNally has lived

Speaker 2: amongst these people for a while. They know what kind

Speaker 2: of person he is. This is not going to be

Speaker 2: one of those scenes show where you're going to have

Speaker 2: a reporter talking to a neighbor that says he.

Speaker 3: Was such a quiet guy. I never expected anything like this.

Speaker 2: As soon as the reporters got on, seen anyone that

Speaker 2: wanted to talk to you, like, oh, man, we can't believe

Speaker 2: he was walking amongst us. Kenneth McNally September third, twenty

Speaker 2: twenty three, was terrorizing people that lived in the area,

Speaker 2: people he would call friends or acquaintances. McNally was demanding

Speaker 2: somebody drive him off the property, get me out of here.

Speaker 2: They said he was acting erratically and and aggressively in

Speaker 2: demanding somebody give him a right out of the place,

Speaker 2: and that he was intimating holding his holding his hands

Speaker 2: in a certain way to make them believe that he

Speaker 2: was armed, that he was holding a weapon, that he

Speaker 2: was willing to use said weapon to get his way.

Speaker 2: His way being get me out of here. Now, we

Speaker 2: don't know what was going on in his head to

Speaker 2: make him feel like that, but we know that this

Speaker 2: is a guy who has no boundaries, no physical boundaries,

Speaker 2: to anything anywhere, anytime. And I gotta be honest with you, Joe,

Speaker 2: if I was one of those people living in those

Speaker 2: trailers in this six acre compound, I'd be afraid of McNally.

Speaker 2: Kenneth McNally Junior would have frightened me because he doesn't

Speaker 2: seem to care. You know, you can usually reason with somebody.

Speaker 2: You can reason with animals.

Speaker 3: Not this guy. He could not be reasoned with.

Speaker 2: So September third, twenty twenty three, that is the day

Speaker 2: that Kenneth McNally decided to kill the one person on

Speaker 2: planet Earth that if Kenneth McNally was homeless and needed food,

Speaker 2: Samuel Holts would have made him the meal.

Speaker 3: He would have made the meal and fed the man.

Speaker 3: But what he got.

Speaker 2: I had to reover the police report a couple of

Speaker 2: times show because we do have the physical reports of

Speaker 2: what was seen, what happened, but we also have statements

Speaker 2: made by Kenneth McNally Jor Talking about what he did.

Speaker 2: I don't know if he was bragging or confessing or both,

Speaker 2: but we have an idea of what he did, and

Speaker 2: it's all bad. He Kenneth McNally Jr. Shot Samuel Holtis

Speaker 2: in the face with a gun. He then McNally tied

Speaker 2: an extension cord around Samuel Holtas neck. He attached the

Speaker 2: other end of the extension cord to a pickup truck.

Speaker 2: Kenneth McNally Junior then dragged, dragged Samuel Holtis cord wrapped

Speaker 2: around his neck, dragging him with the truck three hundred

Speaker 2: and twenty nine feet. He drug him to the area

Speaker 2: where he was going to use a shallow grave to

Speaker 2: put his body in the dirt, not all of his body,

Speaker 2: but about seventy five eighty percent. But Joe, that's what

Speaker 2: Kenneth McNally junior did to Samuel Haltis You already know

Speaker 2: he left his head sticking up out of the shallow grave.

Speaker 2: Now I don't know how much had because we know

Speaker 2: that he was shot in the face, Joe, And you're

Speaker 2: gonna have to shed some light on this for me

Speaker 2: because I've been trying to figure out it was it

Speaker 2: just the top of his head like you know, hair

Speaker 2: or bald spot or was it his head you know,

Speaker 2: neck out right?

Speaker 1: Yeah, And that's that's something that's This is quite interesting

Speaker 1: to me because there have been events over over over

Speaker 1: time where people have literally been buried up to their necks, okay,

Speaker 1: and it was it was kind of like a form

Speaker 1: of torture, Uh, to do that and left alive.

Speaker 3: Isn't that when the pirates used to do that on

Speaker 3: the beach. They would.

Speaker 1: I think that there's it's been It's been done over

Speaker 1: multiple civilizations for a long long time. I don't know

Speaker 1: if they'll do it in the year twenty five, twenty five, but.

Speaker 3: He's in the year twenty three they did.

Speaker 1: Yeah the year yeah, no, kidd and uh when you see,

Speaker 1: you see what has been done to this victim. And

Speaker 1: let's back up just just a second, because I want

Speaker 1: to go back to the gunshot one. Yeah, I think

Speaker 1: that that folks beloe leave that if you shoot someone

Speaker 1: in the face that death is instantaneous. That's not the case.

Speaker 1: I want to tell you a quick little side story here.

Speaker 1: Actually had a guy that worked as he had been

Speaker 1: contracted to kill to kill a family, and he shot

Speaker 1: the father and two sons in their home, killed them

Speaker 1: and then I guess I don't know what happened at

Speaker 1: the end, but he took a forty five sorry caliber

Speaker 1: handgun that he had brought to the residence inside of

Speaker 1: a binder that had a star foam cutout where he

Speaker 1: could put the weapon inside of the binder, and also

Speaker 1: extra magazines, and after he had shot the father and

Speaker 1: his two sons, killed them both. He takes the weapon

Speaker 1: and puts it beneath his chin and pulls the trigger

Speaker 1: and does it kill himself. And this is a forty

Speaker 1: four caliber I'm sorry I keep saying forty four caliber,

Speaker 1: forty five caliber Colt semi automatic pistol. He did succeed

Speaker 1: in blowing off the lower portion of the leading portion

Speaker 1: of his mandible, took out part of his maxilla, his nose,

Speaker 1: and survived. I actually testified in that case, and really yeah,

Speaker 1: I did. And the guy still still lived. He lived

Speaker 1: through it. In an interesting little aside, while they were

Speaker 1: doing reconstructive surgery on his face, and the reconstructive surgery

Speaker 1: took place at Charity Hospital. Many of you guys might

Speaker 1: remember Charity Hospital. It was the big hospital in New

Speaker 1: Orleans got wiped out with Patrina, and they had a

Speaker 1: plastic surgeon that was working on him. These are residents

Speaker 1: led by a staff physician. They actually and they were

Speaker 1: reconstructing his face and along his neck and re routing

Speaker 1: things and all that sort of stuff they do. They

Speaker 1: actually wound up clipping his vocal cords in there and

Speaker 1: he didn't have the ability to talk. And to make

Speaker 1: matters worse, He's Korean and didn't speak English, and so

Speaker 1: it was this really bizarre case. But the reason I'm

Speaker 1: telling you this is it's possible, and I've had it

Speaker 1: happen on other k had a guy with a shotgun

Speaker 1: as well, and that was shot self inflicted and didn't

Speaker 1: die immediately wandered about. So the idea that he shot

Speaker 1: this fellow in the face and that he automatically died

Speaker 1: is not necessarily the case every single time. Just because

Speaker 1: you score a head shot doesn't mean the person is

Speaker 1: necessarily going to die. It all depends on where they're shot.

Speaker 1: Because you can be shot in the face without it

Speaker 1: impacting your brain. That's that's a possibility, right, And so

Speaker 1: you have to take that into account and the fact

Speaker 1: that beyond that level of violence that he would have

Speaker 1: subjected this victim today, he goes and gets an electrical cord.

Speaker 1: Now right now, you know, I'm kind of thinking, well,

Speaker 1: when you wrap an electric cord, because he's using he

Speaker 1: is using the neck itself as a point of contact.

Speaker 1: So if he is using that as a point of contact,

Speaker 1: he's anchoring this. It's essentially literature, right, right, He's essentially

Speaker 1: tying this off around his neck. Did you know that

Speaker 1: you're going to have features on this guy's neck that

Speaker 1: will approximate what hanging would look like, because with this

Speaker 1: you would actually get and you and I have talked

Speaker 1: about tinting feature in the past. We've talked about it

Speaker 1: with Epstein over and over and over again. Right, and

Speaker 1: you get that presentation that goes up in the back.

Speaker 1: It sharply goes up behind the ears. In a dragon

Speaker 1: case like this, where you have an individual that is

Speaker 1: anchored by their neck, you're actually going to get this

Speaker 1: because the weight is pulling against the rear of the truck.

Speaker 1: This is absolutely horrific because you're talking about this individual

Speaker 1: having been shot, tied off by the neck and the

Speaker 1: other end of the cord being tied to essentially the

Speaker 1: bumper or the trailer hitch, and then being drug three

Speaker 1: hundred and twenty nine feet. Now I am imagining right now,

Speaker 1: I'm imagining right now that the surface that he was

Speaker 1: drug over is probably not an improved surface. Okay, So

Speaker 1: his body is going to be making contact with the

Speaker 1: underlying road surface. So if you're talking about even if

Speaker 1: it's it's fine sand, all right, that's still going to

Speaker 1: ubraid the back when we see people that have been

Speaker 1: drug by vehicles, you'll get these kind of long curve

Speaker 1: what will refer to as curve linear abrasions that depended

Speaker 1: upon the side that they're on. Let's say they're on

Speaker 1: the anterior side, you know, on the chest and the abdomen,

Speaker 1: you'll still get them. If they're wearing clothing that will

Speaker 1: add some level of protection. But even clothing gets torn

Speaker 1: away and you can actually see that presented at autopsy.

Speaker 1: It'll catch hold of rocks, this sort of thing. If

Speaker 1: they're on the back, same thing, you'll get these curveliney

Speaker 1: or superficial marks to be really red. There won't be

Speaker 1: a tremendous amount of blood unless they go over like

Speaker 1: really sharp rocks, which I've actually seen happen where you know,

Speaker 1: the rocks acts like they're penetrating particular areas. What's really

Speaker 1: haunting is when you get a body into the moor

Speaker 1: that has been drug over surface like this. And remember

Speaker 1: we take the bodies out of the backs at the autopsies, right,

Speaker 1: and I have distinct memories of this, taking bodies out

Speaker 1: of bag that had gravel all of the body and

Speaker 1: just for a moment, you can hear that gravel striking

Speaker 1: the stainless steel surface of the table or the tray

Speaker 1: you know, where you're doing autopsy, and it really it

Speaker 1: really captures you for a moment. You know, you hear

Speaker 1: that you're kind of connected to that event. So the

Speaker 1: layers of terror and horror that you have here are

Speaker 1: pretty significant. I think one of the big prevailing questions

Speaker 1: here about these injuries that he has sustained. One of

Speaker 1: the things that we would want to know in this

Speaker 1: particular case is was he still alive as he was

Speaker 1: being drugged down this road? Well, Dave, just just the

Speaker 1: whole of this, this action that started three hundred over

Speaker 1: three hundred feet away, that's only part of the tail here, right, Yeah,

Speaker 1: from a processing standpoint, we still have where his remains

Speaker 1: wound up.

Speaker 2: I want to ask you a question about when you

Speaker 2: were talking about how getting a body on the table

Speaker 2: and having you know, sand and grit, when when you

Speaker 2: have a body that's been drug and then put into

Speaker 2: a shallow grave and.

Speaker 3: When you're on.

Speaker 2: The scene, I'm trying to figure out in my head

Speaker 2: first responders show up. I mean they're called because well,

Speaker 2: we've got a body. They're going to determine that the

Speaker 2: person is dead fairly quickly. Are they going to dig

Speaker 2: that person out before to see if they can render eight?

Speaker 2: Are they going to okay, so they're going to term

Speaker 2: this person is dead their head sticking up. But I

Speaker 2: mean because look, man, you could be beaten to a

Speaker 2: pulp and still be alive.

Speaker 3: We have seen you.

Speaker 1: You could know and this, yeah, this goes to and

Speaker 1: I've been threatening that we were going to do an

Speaker 1: episode on the seven cardinal signs of death, but this

Speaker 1: would go to one of those initial things that we

Speaker 1: would look for. We're gonna check for uh, for the

Speaker 1: status of the eyes to see if they're going to

Speaker 1: respond to light, right, and something that you see people

Speaker 1: do on television and these sorts of things. Right, if

Speaker 1: you know, if the pupils are blown out and non

Speaker 1: reactive to light, and you can also access one of

Speaker 1: the strongest pulse points in the body, which is going

Speaker 1: to be the crot even if you have to go

Speaker 1: subsurface slightly to feel to palpate for this, and they

Speaker 1: would they would probably you know, there's actually you know

Speaker 1: we talk about responding to pain stimulus, right, that's one

Speaker 1: of the seven cardinal signs. When we talk about responding

Speaker 1: to pain stimulus. Generally, there's like a sternll rub if

Speaker 1: you've ever had that, if you've ever had an EMT,

Speaker 1: try to get your attention. They'll do that. Did you

Speaker 1: know that there is a way to do pain stimulus

Speaker 1: and get them to respond. And remember how I talked

Speaker 1: about the eye to see if the pupil was blown.

Speaker 1: There's also something else you can do. Yeah, if you

Speaker 1: want to try to do this, see if you can

Speaker 1: touch your own eyeball without blinking. And one of the

Speaker 1: things that happens that will be done by some people

Speaker 1: is that they will attempt There are clinicians out there

Speaker 1: that will attempt to touch the eye of an individual

Speaker 1: if they have questions as to whether or not they're alive. Now,

Speaker 1: that's not one hundred percent guaranteed, because you can have

Speaker 1: brain brain injuries where you won't have this responsiveness with

Speaker 1: the eyes, but it's just kind of a confirmatory you

Speaker 1: reach and if they don't react, if they don't blink

Speaker 1: or retract, that's one of the boxes that is ticked.

Speaker 1: And you couple that with checking for a created pulse,

Speaker 1: then you know, right right then you're in the you're

Speaker 1: in the neighborhood, so e m ts. And granted it's

Speaker 1: a very bizarre situation, but EMTs roll up on bizarre

Speaker 1: situations all the time. People don't think about all the

Speaker 1: folks that are penned in cars, you know, or that yeah,

Speaker 1: impaled on a fence. That does happen. It happens frequently,

Speaker 1: more frequently than people think.

Speaker 2: Uh.

Speaker 1: Uh, people that are trapped inside of uh debris where

Speaker 1: house has collapsed. There's all manner. There are people out

Speaker 1: there that have been shot multiple times and you might

Speaker 1: walk up on them and think that they're dead. Uh,

Speaker 1: but they still have you know, kind of agonal respirations. Uh,

Speaker 1: there's still life there. So they're going to go through this.

Speaker 1: But once the e mts have determined, look, this guy's buried,

Speaker 1: we see that there's some kind of trauma going on here.

Speaker 1: We're visualizing in this case if his head is sufficient

Speaker 1: and Deepending upon on where the entrance wound is, we

Speaker 1: see he's got a gunshot wound to the face.

Speaker 3: Well, and that's okay.

Speaker 2: The call that came in at three point thirty pm

Speaker 2: on September third, twenty twenty three was a.

Speaker 3: Suspicious death, all right.

Speaker 2: That was the call that was made now, and that's

Speaker 2: why I was kind of curious, because I know that

Speaker 2: people survive odd things. So somebody made the call suspicious death.

Speaker 2: Now I want to make sure I get this exactly right,

Speaker 2: because this is what officers found. Okay, San Diego County

Speaker 2: Sheriff's deputies arrive on the scene. A witness noticed a

Speaker 2: human head protruding from the dirt and told them. When

Speaker 2: they get there, they found halt Is partially buried in

Speaker 2: a shallow grave. And they found the extension cord was

Speaker 2: wrapped around his neck and it hadn't been removed.

Speaker 3: Okay, he.

Speaker 2: Still had the cord around his neck. Joe, he's buried

Speaker 2: his head sticking out. But a gunshot one into his

Speaker 2: face was obvious as well. So now I'm thinking he's

Speaker 2: buried from here up, well here up the extension cord

Speaker 2: around his neck, so they could see like from here up.

Speaker 2: This gets worse as you look into it. That officers,

Speaker 2: the deputies on the scene, they're able to ascertain that

Speaker 2: he arrived in this place where his body was placed

Speaker 2: in the shallow grave by dragging, you know how, they

Speaker 2: could see the extension cord drag marks of the body.

Speaker 2: Yea and a truck that had blood. The drag marks

Speaker 2: even led to another location, so he wasn't shot in

Speaker 2: the face, you know, and buried right there. They were

Speaker 2: able to quickly determine that Samuel Halters was shot in

Speaker 2: the face somewhere else, and as they followed the drag trail,

Speaker 2: they found the spot where a lot of coagulated blood

Speaker 2: was there and it's like, okay, he was shot here,

Speaker 2: but then he was tied up drug to hear and

Speaker 2: he wasn't even buried completely. He was buried so he

Speaker 2: could be found in this most heinous of ways. That's

Speaker 2: what deputies saw. This is why I I don't think

Speaker 2: people understand what some law enforcement individuals go through on

Speaker 2: their daily life. I'm in fo honest with you, Joe

Speaker 2: this right now talking. This is my crappy day at work.

Speaker 2: You know, their crappy day at work that day was

Speaker 2: being called to a death where a nice guy's head

Speaker 2: is sticking out above the ground. He's been a face

Speaker 2: blown away, and there's a electro cord tied around his

Speaker 2: neck like a noose, and he was drug to that

Speaker 2: location before he was buried.

Speaker 3: That's what their crappy day at work looked.

Speaker 1: Like, well, yeah, and it's it's a horrible thing to

Speaker 1: have to go out and reconstruct this and try to

Speaker 1: understand what happened. But here we are, and it's one

Speaker 1: of the things that we have to do, it seems.

Speaker 1: So let me tell you about these drag marks, which

Speaker 1: is kind of interesting. Uh, one thing you're going to

Speaker 1: be looking for and a bit several pieces of the

Speaker 1: evidence here. If you have an individual that is being

Speaker 1: drug behind a vehicle and you've got tire tracks, so

Speaker 1: you've got these bilateral tracks that are running in a

Speaker 1: in a specific direction. Correct, Okay, So they're going up

Speaker 1: a hill down a road. Okay, Now they are making

Speaker 1: impressions on the soil surface. Let's say it's soft. It's

Speaker 1: a soft surface, and they're making making their own impression

Speaker 1: going up the road well in tandem and running behind.

Speaker 1: Depended upon how much slacked was in that extension cord

Speaker 1: and to what length, there will be concurrent drag marks

Speaker 1: being generated by the body that is actually going in

Speaker 1: some spots. In some spots it's going down the mid

Speaker 1: line of these tracks right in the center. Now you

Speaker 1: can what's interesting if you want to try to understand

Speaker 1: which vehicle did this, and scientifically, you have to demonstrate

Speaker 1: this in court. You can't just say yeah, it was

Speaker 1: this vehicle. You would have to go in and first off,

Speaker 1: you would have to measure. You would have to get

Speaker 1: an idea of the tire tread pattern itself. Entire tread

Speaker 1: patterns are just like shoe patterns. Okay, So think about

Speaker 1: the tires on your car. The longer you use them,

Speaker 1: the more worn they wouldcome. And you have to get

Speaker 1: new tires, right, Okay, so let's just say let's just

Speaker 1: pull Let's just say they're good ears.

Speaker 3: Okay, having tread like if I mean, yeah.

Speaker 1: They make a very distinctive pattern. Yeah, because you'll have intermitte.

Speaker 1: You'll have intermitte tread patterns relative to wear. And let's

Speaker 1: say you have brand a good year and you get

Speaker 1: a set on your brand new truck and you drive

Speaker 1: it for a month. Well, I go out and buy

Speaker 1: the same truck, the same truck by the same tires

Speaker 1: or maybe it's what's called hang on, let me get

Speaker 1: quite OA, which is called original equipment. That's a term

Speaker 1: that she used in forensics, like OA. Those are the

Speaker 1: tires that the truck comes with from the dealership that

Speaker 1: you know, if Goodyear has a contract with Ford or Chevy,

Speaker 1: whoever it is, they supply those tires and you can

Speaker 1: go out and customize them and get whatever kind of

Speaker 1: tires you want, you know, but that's the OA. Well,

Speaker 1: if I go out and I order the same truck

Speaker 1: as you, you've been driving yours for a month, Well,

Speaker 1: our tread pattern, even though it's the same tires, same

Speaker 1: wheelbase of the truck, they're going to look different because

Speaker 1: we drive different we gover different surfaces. So those treadmarks

Speaker 1: are unique to that vehicle. So when you marry that up,

Speaker 1: when you marry that up, that's going to be something

Speaker 1: that's demonstrative. Right then when you take the victims back

Speaker 1: or his front or his side and you compare it

Speaker 1: to the marks in the soil. One of the things

Speaker 1: that they will ask the pathologists on the stand, you know,

Speaker 1: doctor Jones, do these marks on the body do they

Speaker 1: appear consistent with an individual having been drug behind a

Speaker 1: vehicle for three over three hundred feet? And we actually

Speaker 1: have pictures here, we're showing the pictures in court. We

Speaker 1: have pictures of what are being called drag marks on

Speaker 1: the ground. Does what you're scene right here. Compare to

Speaker 1: Exhibit one A, which is an image of the victim's

Speaker 1: back at autopsy. Yes, the doctor says, yes, within a

Speaker 1: reasonable scientific certainty, that would compare well to this. And

Speaker 1: then they'll say, now, could this particular surface create these

Speaker 1: kinds of injuries. It's a core surface, it's not improved,

Speaker 1: it's got loose gravel, it's got sand, it's composed of debris.

Speaker 1: And doctor Jones would say, yes, that type of surface

Speaker 1: would in fact create, within a reasonable scientific certainty, these

Speaker 1: kinds of injuries. So all the while, when they're out

Speaker 1: there and they're having to behold all this horror that

Speaker 1: you were just discussing just second ago, a day in

Speaker 1: the life, right, they're having to go back and reconstruct

Speaker 1: this from where it started. My suspicion is is that wherever,

Speaker 1: wherever this gentleman was shot in the face, there is

Speaker 1: going to be a focal area of blood there. There

Speaker 1: will probably be bits of biological material dispersed throughout those

Speaker 1: dragon marks. You have to look careful for him though,

Speaker 1: And then wherever the body came to rest, because the

Speaker 1: body could still be seeping blood at that point. Top.

Speaker 1: I don't know if he survived the dragging, but even

Speaker 1: if he didn't, the body still will probably seek blood

Speaker 1: or will seek blood from injuries that might be caused

Speaker 1: by the dragging. You can have injuries like the well

Speaker 1: the primary injury is this gsw to the face where

Speaker 1: it could be seeping from there as well. So you'll

Speaker 1: have these kind of beginning points and ending points, which

Speaker 1: he's kind of fascinating scientifically.

Speaker 2: You mentioned that just getting shot in the face is

Speaker 2: not and it's not enough to say that's what killed him.

Speaker 2: Would you be able to determine if that if that

Speaker 2: was you know, the gunshot to the face, or was

Speaker 2: he strangled? Was that the electric cord around his neck?

Speaker 2: Is that what killed him? He strangled by being towed

Speaker 2: around him?

Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that the marks on the neck are

Speaker 1: going to be as close as you're going to get, brother, Okay,

Speaker 1: And this is why we have to make an assumption.

Speaker 1: You know what they say about as soon, but we

Speaker 1: have to make an assumption here that if in fact

Speaker 1: he was not dead with a gunshot wound, we would

Speaker 1: look for indwelling hemorrhage in here. Because I guarantee you

Speaker 1: dollars to donuts through here through the neck, the soft tissue,

Speaker 1: the strap muscles, there is going If he is a lot,

Speaker 1: there will be hemorrhage here. Okay, okay, Now he can

Speaker 1: just have agonal respirations. But if this is traumatized to

Speaker 1: the point where these vessels are disrupted in any way,

Speaker 1: you will have hemorrhage to this created here. They'll bleed

Speaker 1: out into the interstitial tissue, the muscle tissue, all this

Speaker 1: sort of things, and that will be existing now if

Speaker 1: he is shot. If he is shot and he dies

Speaker 1: at that moment in time, okay, the gunshot wound, you'll

Speaker 1: have marks on the neck, but they will not be hemorrhagic.

Speaker 1: You're not going to have like, you'll have a furrow,

Speaker 1: but the furrow is not going to have any associated hemorrhage.

Speaker 1: Then you reflect or dissect the neck and you're not

Speaker 1: going to have any hemorrhage in here. Does that mean

Speaker 1: that you're that the net cannot be traumatized, No, it doesn't.

Speaker 1: You can still have like, you can still have the

Speaker 1: larynx being fractured. Possibility though remote depend upon how up

Speaker 1: it went. You know what I'm gonna say here, You

Speaker 1: could fracture the hyoid if it slips up high enough

Speaker 1: because there's so much force being put behind it, and

Speaker 1: it goes so high, you don't know how secure the

Speaker 1: knot may have been. If it's secured in a one

Speaker 1: focal point like that, it's not going to move a lot.

Speaker 1: And it all depends a lot of it depends on

Speaker 1: at this pace at which the vehicle is being driven.

Speaker 1: And one other thing. If this guy is swerving back

Speaker 1: and forth, keep this in mind. The body swerving back.

Speaker 2: And he was just so you know, that was one

Speaker 2: of the eyewitness accounts that he was driving erratically with

Speaker 2: the body behind him.

Speaker 3: Believable.

Speaker 1: And so you're gonna have debris, you're gonna have vegetation

Speaker 1: on sides of the road. Perhaps that will be disrupted.

Speaker 1: They can call that drag marks as well. If let's

Speaker 1: just say that he goes over vegetation, okay, any of

Speaker 1: the local flora, if you will. He's still wearing clothes,

Speaker 1: You'll see. It's just like when we were kids, you know,

Speaker 1: and we would fall in the grass and you know,

Speaker 1: our seious tough skin jeans that we would wear and

Speaker 1: Mom would have to get the grass staines out of

Speaker 1: our knees, right, and so does grass stains or that debris,

Speaker 1: whether it's cracked up wood or bits of grass or anything,

Speaker 1: that's still going to be on him. And that's something

Speaker 1: that we use in road investigations as well, where we

Speaker 1: have pedestrians struck by vehicles, individuals that are being dragged

Speaker 1: by vehicles, will look and see if anybody's gone off

Speaker 1: of the road with this while they're dragging the person

Speaker 1: they've been knocked off into vegetation is going to be

Speaker 1: critical as well.

Speaker 3: All right, well, there are a couple of things we have.

Speaker 2: Now you've gotten us from finding the body, determining how

Speaker 2: this individual died cause and then one other thing came

Speaker 2: into this, and that was before it got to trial.

Speaker 2: Mister McNally decided to confess. He gave multiple stories about

Speaker 2: what actually took place. One witness said that McNally described

Speaker 2: shooting Samuel Haltis, dragging him with a noose wrapped around

Speaker 2: his neck, and burying him. That was confession number one.

Speaker 2: Confession number two witnesses observed McNally driving Haltis truck erradically

Speaker 2: before parking it near the grave where he buried mister Holtis.

Speaker 2: And then we have the third witness. Now, this witness

Speaker 2: did not come forward at first, Joe, Remember how I

Speaker 2: told you this guy was kind of terrorizing everyone in

Speaker 2: this little compound. This witness did not come forward until

Speaker 2: months later, but this witness provided a detail account of

Speaker 2: what he saw he or she saw.

Speaker 3: Okay stated that.

Speaker 2: McNally shot Haltis and was witnessed by this person. This

Speaker 2: person witnessed McNally tying the electrical cord around mister Halti's neck.

Speaker 2: He witnessed McNally tying the cord to the truck and

Speaker 2: then watched him as he drove three hundred and twenty

Speaker 2: nine feet dragging mister Holton's body to the burial site.

Speaker 2: Those were the three eyewitness accounts or stories of confession

Speaker 2: that were told to individuals who later testified in court

Speaker 2: at the trial of Kenneth McNally Junior. So there was

Speaker 2: a lot of evidence going into this show.

Speaker 1: Yeah, and there would have been, you know, relative to

Speaker 1: the grave once once this gentleman's body was removed or

Speaker 1: extricated from that site, and it froze that moment in

Speaker 1: time for the investigators that were out there so that

Speaker 1: they could see, you know, what had what was the

Speaker 1: end result of all of the horror that this man

Speaker 1: had reaped, you know, over this entire community, and Lord

Speaker 1: only knows how many other people in his life over

Speaker 1: the years that he was willing to do violence to.

Speaker 1: And it's a very sad end because the thing about

Speaker 1: is is that a light has been snuffed out in

Speaker 1: an otherwise kind of dark, dark world that the light

Speaker 1: went into for a long period of time. But yet

Speaker 1: another light shines on. It shines on in a prison

Speaker 1: in California where this individual has been sentenced to two

Speaker 1: hundred and sixteen years. Let's see how violent and intimidating

Speaker 1: he is in that environment where he doesn't have a gun,

Speaker 1: he does don't have a truck or an extension cord,

Speaker 1: he doesn't have a shovel. Let's see how that works.

Speaker 3: Out for him.

Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is body bags.