Killer Doesn't Realize His Body Language Is Giving Him Away

Killer Doesn't Realize His Body Language Is Giving Him Away

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Speaker 1: Hello and welcome to your True Crime Podcast. On April 7, 2013,

Scott Sunford called 911 after his home alarm registered activity

while he was away. Officers found his wife, Desiree, shot

dead inside. Hear portions of the 911 call and police

interviews as investigators examine the case.

Speaker 2: Each of these rights, has I explained them to you?

Speaker 3: Yes. There's one thing that does confuse me, though.

Speaker 2: What's that?

Speaker 3: Generally, if you read somebody their Miranda rights, that implies

that they're under arrest.

Speaker 2: No, not always.

Speaker 4: It just means that we're conducting our investigation. I can

tell you, you're not under arrest right now.

Speaker 2: Okay. But we are.

Speaker 4: Here at the sheriff's office, and we're being recorded. So

as a matter of protocol... When we're conducting our investigations,

we do read people that are Miranda warnings, okay?

Speaker 3: Okay, that makes sense, because at least this way you

have it on record that I'm receiving my Miranda rights.

In case there is an arrest later on, you can't

say I wasn't at my rights and get released. Exactly. Okay.

Speaker 4: Okay, so you understand what's going on, and having those

rights in mind, are you willing.

Speaker 2: To keep talking to me now about what happened.

Speaker 3: Out at your house? Of course. Okay. As much as

I can. I mean, I can't help you too much.

I wasn't there, but. Okay.

Speaker 2: Well, I wasn't either, and I just got here literally

a few minutes ago.

Speaker 4: So can you just kind of start from the beginning

and tell me what happened?

Speaker 3: Well, quite honestly, you just told me something else. There

was a shooting.

Speaker 2: Right. Okay.

Speaker 3: What can you tell me?

Speaker 4: All I know is that we were called out to

your house and that... there was a body found and

it looks like the person had been shot. So that's

where I'm asking you to jump in and help me

fill in the blanks as far as.

Speaker 2: What led us out there. Okay.

Speaker 3: Let's see. You said today is now the, what, 8th?

Speaker 2: It's the 8th now, yes. Okay. Just after midnight.

Speaker 3: On the 6th at 10 in the morning was my

Aunt Joy's funeral service in Pasco. They're kind of like

at the city church. So that morning, I guess it'd

be Saturday, I left the house at.

Speaker 2: Probably 8, 8.30.

Speaker 5: Okay.

Speaker 3: And that was the last time I was there before your, well,

the last time I was in my house. And that's

going to be a little later than expected because the

idea was I run up, go to the funeral, hugs, handshakes,

turn around, go home. And, you know, I had got

some family from the coast, from all around that, hadn't

seen them quite some time. And a lot of that

side of the family is kind of yuppies that I

don't get along too well with. You know, I'm blue collar,

military mechanic. Don't really hang out with the sharp-dressed crowd

too much. And during that drive on 82, I tried repeatedly.

In fact, let's see if I can give you some times.

My dad and my grandpa and I had been joking

around about how, ah, it's strange, Des hasn't called yet.

She hasn't been bugging me yet today because she's a

real stickler on the times. She schedules tight. I adapt

and overcome and kind of go spontaneous. So we've been

joking about that. And let's see. All it's showing is

the last phone call to her at 9.11 p.m.

Speaker 2: That's the last time you tried to call her?

Speaker 3: Yeah.

Speaker 6: Anyways.

Speaker 3: Anyways. I'm sure the phone records could give you more

specifics if you need them. But all along the drive,

I just kept calling her randomly, trying to get a

hold of her. And I sent her a text even

at one point, you know, why aren't you answering? And

he just wasn't getting anything from her. And it was

kind of freaking me out because, well, after the robbery

last weekend, Deputy Vucek had said that it looked like

they had been interrupted or spooked or something and they

may be back. So the next day we had a

ADT system installed and it was all kind of starting

to build up and driving me a little nuts. And

before I even made that turn off to the Yakima Highway,

you know, maybe 45 minutes, half hour outside of the Tri-Cities,

it was kicking in. And I kept thinking, you know,

maybe I should just call somebody and have them go

check on it. Maybe I should call police. I don't know.

That's silly. She's probably in the shower. She's probably going

to the bathroom doing something. Or she's outside because she'd

said something about wanting to do some yard work. So

I had to fix the tire on the wheelbarrow for her.

So I probably left the phone inside. Or she's taking

a nap. It's on silent. You know, I just kept

telling myself everything's fine. And I couldn't take it anymore.

If I call and she doesn't get it, usually within 10,

15 minutes, she's picked up the phone and called me back.

You know, what's going on? So by this time, it

had already been like an hour of me trying to

get a hold of her with nothing. And I took

her car to the Tri-Cities and left mine because, well,

the last weekend when we were out of town was

when it became illegal to be running studs. And I

still got my studs on the charger. So it was like, ah,

don't need a ticket. Crown Vic's full of gas, charges

on E and has studs. Come on. And so she

convinced me to take the cop car. So I took

hers and she said she didn't want to drive my car.

I'm not even going to drive it. I can bottle

even my keys, whatever. Well, keys anyways, if you need

to take it. And so I wasn't expecting her to

be gone. I really didn't think she'd go anywhere. And

with the way the wind was, I knew she wasn't

going to take the bike anywhere. She's kind of a

picky rider. And so it was driving me nuts. And

about the time I got on the Conilac Road-ish area,

it was too much. I called. And the first gal

I talked to, I told her, you know, I'm probably

just crazy, but I checked my phone a little while

ago and... I got the alarm system was set to

arm stay, meaning that she's at home. So that kind

of implies that she was there and the motion detectors

turned off for the stay home and the motion detector

comes on for stay gone. Well, when it's home, the

door switches still work. And when I checked the phone

and I saw that both doors had tripped, within close

timeframe of each other. When I looked at it, it

said front door open, close, like 324. And then back door, open, close, 327, open, close, 328.

So in my head, I put that together as she

goes in the front door, out the back door, and then,

you know, obviously shuts the doors behind her and then

comes back in the back door and shuts it. So

she should be home. So why isn't she answering me?

She should be in the house. Because that's in out

in a little bit. I drove around waiting, just giving

her that chance to call me. And giving the deputy

a chance to get free and get over there. And

I headed to the house and I pulled down the driveway.

And I went down the driveway to the left and

I fired up my spotlights. And I pointed it at

the back door. I noticed my charger's there, so she

must be home. I stayed there. I kept waiting. I

kept waiting. I couldn't go in. I didn't know what

the hell to do. So I backed the car up

a ways and got on the phone. And I called

my friend Brian that lives out in Glead. I can't

walk in and see anything. If something's wrong in there,

I can't see it. But at the same time, Somebody

broke in when she was there and, uh, she got

hurt or restrained. And I was sitting out in the car,

sitting outside while she's scared. And, uh, I can't go

in there to help her. That was going to drive

me nuts. So just as I was regaining myself, getting

it back together, getting ready to do it, um, the

deputy from Moxie pulled up alongside me and God, it

could not have been better timing. Cause right then I

was able to just say, Hey, my alarm system's on.

It's off. Here's my keys, please. I can't do this. And, uh, yeah,

I just waited there and he walked around and I, uh,

I stayed at my car, had the spotlight on the

back door still. had the door open, standing in the door,

you know, using it for cover in case he spooks

him out the rear. And had my weapon ready, but

not drawn. And just stayed there waiting. And he circled

the residence. And he went up from around the back

side and and all along the picture windows and across

the back by the master bedroom and bath around the

fence onto the patio and in the front door. And

he came, it had been a little while. It seems

like I should have seen lights coming on. I should

have seen flashlights in the windows, something, and I got nothing.

And I didn't hear anything either. So I walked around

And I wanted to see if the bikes were there too, because,

you know, maybe, maybe she was bound and determined. She

had to run down to the store for something.

Speaker 2: She has her own bike that she rides.

Speaker 3: Yeah. I got her one of the newer bikes than mine.

I got her a 2010, uh, Sportster 883 iron and, uh,

welded up a little cargo rack for the back of

it and everything. So she could use it for school. And, uh,

So I went into the garage real quick and I

checked to make sure the bikes were there. Yeah, both

bikes were there. My car's there, her car's here. I

look over and there's the deputy standing out on the

front patio looking like he's on the phone or on

the radio or something.

Speaker 2: He had a.

Speaker 3: Device up to his head. And he saw me and

immediately started walking over. And I didn't make it anymore

than about halfway to the gravel to him. But he said,

you know, go wait over by the car. I'm coming

with you. Let's go over there. He said, I opened

the door and I called for Des and I got

no response. I hollered police department, nothing. I didn't see

a dog. Nothing's going on in there. It just doesn't

seem right. I got backup coming. Next thing I know,

they come outside and one guy's patting me down. They're

asking if I'm armed. I'm like, yeah, I just told

the other deputy. Got a 45 right side inside the waistband,

hip holster, you know. And I had it in the

car because that's my dad's old gun. You know, I

was bringing it up from the Tri-Cities. And when I

was pulling into the house, I stopped up at the

end of the driveway, right up there by the dumpster,

about halfway to the house. And went around, popped the

trunk and quickly slapped it on before I came down.

So I was ready to go. And, uh, so they,

they took the gun and patted me down and they

pulled the surefire flashlight on my back pocket. I haven't

seen that yet. Took whatever else they wanted and, uh,

had me sit in the back of one of the cars. And, uh,

one of the deputies told me that there was a

deceased woman inside and That was all he would say

about it. Obviously, I mean, I understand. You can't ID her,

say you don't know her. That's probably her. So I

guess as of now, I still can't say for sure,

but I'm pretty sure.

Speaker 2: Yeah, I believe that it was your wife that was

found inside the house. You had your dad's. 45 with you.

Speaker 3: Yeah, my dad was... sergeant with the Franklin County Sheriff's

Department for many years. And he had an old 80 series,

Colt Mark 4, 1911, that was his duty pistol for

many years. He shot competitively for the police department. Got

all kinds of great awards for it and everything. And

after the deployments and everything, he was like, eh, heirloom.

Speaker 2: Did you keep any other guns inside the house?

Speaker 3: Yeah, I had a few.

Speaker 2: Okay, what kind of guns did you have in there?

Speaker 3: Let's see, I had, well, let's go with Dez's. When

her grandfather died, her mom left a few guns to

us because I'm a military guy, I shoot. I got

Dez going on it, so she left a Remington Wingmaster

A shotgun? Yeah, and a Remington Huntsmaster, which is a

pump action.

Speaker 2: 30- 06.

Speaker 3: And then two revolvers made by Haas. They were Sig

Sawyer before Sig Sawyer got together.

Speaker 2: What caliber are the revolvers?

Speaker 3: One of them is a. 22 long rifle, and one

of them is a. 357. They're both single actions. Des

also had a carry pistol. It was a Ruger LCP 380.

I shouldn't go there because it's kind of rude, but

Des didn't want me to say anything to anybody. But

she kind of had mixed feelings. And I'll do anything,

but that's one thing I can't provide for. So at

one point, her and Paige had a little thing going

for a while there. A little experiment.

Speaker 4: Okay, so it was Desiree and Paige who had the

sexual relationship?

Speaker 3: Yeah.

Speaker 2: But not you and Paige?

Speaker 3: We all did.

Speaker 2: Sometimes you and.

Speaker 3: Paige, too? Honestly, we all did.

Speaker 2: Okay.

Speaker 4: So you don't think it would probably not have bothered

Desiree to know that you were going to stay with Paige?

Speaker 3: No. And honestly, we didn't even do anything. I was

out on the couch anyways because... It's kind of one

of those things where as long as we're going to

do anything, we need to make sure we all are

fine with doing anything. So everybody stays informed. So if

there's no information or no previous arrangements made, nothing happens.

Avoid hard feelings.

Speaker 4: So it sounds like you and Desiree have a pretty

open relationship.

Speaker 3: As long as the communication lines were.

Speaker 7: Generally, no.

Speaker 3: No? Generally, no. Just with her.

Speaker 2: Just with her.

Speaker 4: There was a special relationship. How had you and Desiree

been getting along lately?

Speaker 2: Great. No problems in the marriage?

Speaker 7: No.

Speaker 3: Typical marriage things, you know? Bickering and picking at each

other for stupid little things.

Speaker 2: No big fights, though.

Speaker 7: No.

Speaker 3: Don't worry. Kiss and hug and go to bed at

night happy, you know?

Speaker 2: Well, I'm just thinking... You're a big guy. You're a 6'4.

Speaker 3: Somewhere up there.

Speaker 2: 6'4, 250.

Speaker 4: You've got a firearm on you. You've been in combat.

I mean, you've done some serious shit that most people

will never do. So if anyone's going to be willing

to go charging in the house and make sure their

wife's okay, it would seem to me that it would

be you.

Speaker 3: Well.

It's not that I was afraid of anybody being in there.

I'll take on a hundred people for her, that's fine.

Speaker 6: Yeah.

Speaker 3: That wasn't the concern.

Speaker 2: It was her. You just don't want to see what

may have happened to her.

Speaker 7: Yeah.

Speaker 2: And what did you think you might see if you

went inside?

Speaker 3: Roll around a thousand of the worst things you could

think of. The only reason I would have been forced

to go in there, the only reason I could talk

myself into it was the fear that she still needed

me in there.

Speaker 2: You know what I mean?

Speaker 3: Because if she was in there and she was hurt

and scared or restrained and I was sitting outside just

idly waiting while she's in there going through.

Speaker 2: That alone, that would have killed me.

Speaker 3: So if somebody else goes in there and it's fine,

everything's empty, that's great.

Speaker 2: Did Desiree have problems with anyone else? Was there anyone

else that she has fought with recently or that you

can think of that might want.

Speaker 3: To hurt her? Nothing. I mean, who hates an art teacher?

It's an elective. Everybody that's in there wants to be there.

Speaker 2: So she hasn't had problems with anyone?

Speaker 3: No. Neither one of us.

Speaker 2: Other than her relationship with Paige, did she have any

other sexual relationships that you know of? No.

Speaker 3: A few years ago, actually quite a few years ago,

before we were even married, she cheated on me at

one point with another guy. But, you know, that's long

since over with.

Speaker 2: When you were dating? She had an affair? Has she

had any affairs since you've been married?

Speaker 7: No.

Speaker 3: Not that I know of. She hasn't been good.

Speaker 2: Okay. So obviously the big reason that I wanted to

talk to you face-to-face was that we got a Crime

Stoppers tip from you with some new information. about the shooting.

Speaker 6: Yep.

Speaker 4: Did a little research based on information that you sent

us and found a picture of Marty Grismer. Is that

the gentleman that we're talking about?

Speaker 3: Yes.

Speaker 5: Okay.

Speaker 2: Would you mind just initialing Putting the date below that.

Normally I would do a montage, but you were so

specific with your description about who it was that I

felt pretty comfortable.

Speaker 6: I'm sorry. He looks a little bit different now.

Speaker 2: Okay. How does he look different now?

Speaker 6: He has hair.

Speaker 7: I can show you.

Speaker 5: Okay.

Speaker 2: It is quite a difference.

Speaker 7: Well, he was about 18 in that picture, and he's

10 years later.

Speaker 2: Okay.

Speaker 4: So in the tip, you were pretty specific about some

new information that's come to light. So why don't you

just tell me in your own words what you've heard

how you heard it and I think that's as good

a place as any.

Speaker 2: Last week.

Speaker 6: I had Scott over he was there for the week

and we were arguing and Marty his wife.

Speaker 7: Is was my babysitter at one point and we had

been up all night arguing and talking.

Speaker 6: And I asked Marty to come over and get the baby.

So he came over and he picked him up and.

Speaker 3: It was, everything was fine.

Speaker 6: Scott was asleep. I told him what was going on.

Speaker 7: And he asked me if I wanted him to take

care of this new woman like he did Desi. And

I asked him what he was talking about. The first

time you came to see me, I was pregnant. We

had just found out about three weeks before the shooting

that I was pregnant. Marty was one of the first

people that I told. And apparently he decided that If

the baby was Scott's like it was supposed to be,

then Desiree would cause issues.

Speaker 3: Oh my God.

Speaker 2: So you told Marty that Scott was the father of

the baby?

Speaker 7: Oh, Marty knew that Scott and I were together and

Scott was the only one that I was seeing.

Speaker 6: And he's smart enough to put it together. He asked

me for sure if.

Speaker 7: It was Scott's and I told him, yeah, because at

the time I thought that was the case.

Speaker 6: The night of the shooting, you.

Speaker 7: Know, Scott and I went to dinner with a co-worker

and I had asked him to come over and I

always paid his gas whenever he made extra trips. I

was a little bit short on money, and I asked

Marty if I could borrow $ 20.

Speaker 6: So he came over and dropped the money off.

Speaker 7: We sat and visited for 15 minutes or so, and

then he went home because he had to work the

next day.

Speaker 6: It was pretty late at night, but.

Speaker 7: Then I had my $ 60 that I could give to

Scott for gas.

Speaker 6: So he already knew that Scott wasn't going to be home.

What he told me.

Speaker 7: On Wednesday was that he had gone home, gone to

sleep for a couple of hours, and he got up.

I can't look at that. He had an extra clip

of some old ammo that he had bought a few

years ago. He ran out all of the ammo in

his backyard until he had a single clip left.

Speaker 6: He had a gun. It was untraceable, unregistered, and.

He said he took it.

Speaker 7: He made sure that everything was wiped down, completely clean,

no fingerprints on anything, none of the.

Speaker 6: Bullets, reloaded the clip.

Speaker 7: He turned his phone off before he left the house,

and he took 24 out the back way.

Speaker 2: To Scott's house.

Speaker 6: Marty was my best friend.

Speaker 3: For a long time.

Speaker 6: Scott had given him a tour of the house a

couple months before. And he knew that I had a

key there.

Speaker 3: He knew that there was a key outside.

Speaker 2: Do you know how he knew that?

Speaker 6: Because he knew our routine.

Speaker 3: He knew.

Speaker 6: It was just stuff that we talked about. I was

excited about getting the house. I was excited about everything

was new.

Speaker 7: And, you know... It was just stuff that we shared.

I never told him where the key was hidden. He

said it took him probably 15 minutes to find it.

Speaker 3: He got the key.

Speaker 7: He went in the front door because he knew that

that was the closest to the bedroom. The alarm went

off when he opened the door. And Ada came out barking.

Des came out right behind her and he shot her.

Speaker 6: He shot her three times. She went down.

Speaker 2: He shot her some more.

Speaker 3: I don't... I.

Speaker 6: Don't remember how many bullets he said.

Speaker 3: It was a full clip.

Speaker 7: He let her get, I don't know, 10 or 15

feet away And he got closer to her as she

was trying to crawl away. He wanted to make sure

that she had an open casket funeral. He went to

the back of the house and moved the board off

the window that Scott had put up after the robbery.

Speaker 6: Oh, that's not awkward at all.

Speaker 2: Is that him trying to call you?

Speaker 6: That was Scott trying to call me. His dad's here

with me. I only told them that I was setting

up a meeting with you.

Speaker 3: I haven't actually talked to him yet.

Speaker 2: So he doesn't know the story about Marty? Is he

going to react possibly violently, do you think?

Speaker 7: That's why I didn't tell him. I waited for him

to leave before I even could wrap my brain around

the whole thing to put it into it.

Speaker 2: How close were he and Marty?

Speaker 7: I wouldn't say that they were extremely close. Marty was

my best friend. Marty and I started dating for a

little bit until he found out about Scott.

Speaker 6: And I told him I couldn't see him anymore. But

we were friends. We would go out together and stuff.

Speaker 3: They didn't.

Speaker 6: There's an old.

Speaker 5: Lady in Yakima.

Speaker 6: Scott and Des's old neighbor at the apartment. Marty helped

me take care of her. And sometimes him and Scott

would get together up in Yakima to talk about that.

Speaker 2: That was how.

Speaker 7: Marty found the house and got the tour of the

house was because he was up there to.

Speaker 3: See Lori.

Speaker 6: So he goes to the back.

Speaker 7: I think that he said that he exited the back door,

walked out, walked back in to make it look like

he had come through the back door.

Speaker 6: Because it was raining that night.

Speaker 3: He wanted to leave shoe prints.

Speaker 6: He put the key back in the hiding spot. Went

back inside again. grabbed a jewelry box off of her dresser,

and he left.

Speaker 4: If you initiated another conversation with him, do you think

he would talk to you about it more?

Speaker 3: I'm sure he would.

Speaker 6: He worships the ground I walk on. He's obsessed with me.

Speaker 2: Is that something that you would consider?

Speaker 6: That's all I could think about.

Speaker 2: The last two days.

Speaker 3: What about.

Speaker 2: What if there was a situation where we could put

a wire on you? Would you be willing to talk

to him with a wire on? Did you kill Desiree?

Speaker 3: No.

Speaker 2: You say no. Do you know who did kill Desiree?

I have a good idea that Paige had it done.

Speaker 3: Okay.

Speaker 2: Were you present when she was killed? No.

Speaker 4: Were you involved in or aware of the planning of

Desiree's death?

Speaker 2: Not beforehand, no.

Speaker 5: After the fact, I figured on there that she had

done something.

Speaker 4: Has Paige ever confessed to you that she killed Desiree

or had her killed?

Speaker 5: She gave me the impression on there that she had

it arranged. She didn't say, yes, I had her killed.

She didn't say that.

Speaker 3: She'd done that, but.

Speaker 5: She gave me the impression when I asked about that,

after the fact with the guns and everything else, after

I got it back, I'd asked her, did you do

something with this? Did you, I.

Speaker 2: Mean, why did you ask for my gun? Why'd you

do this on there?

Speaker 3: I don't know.

Speaker 5: I don't know why she wanted to keep me around.

Maybe for this exact scenario. Maybe for you guys coming

down on her and figuring it out so that she

could use me.

Speaker 2: On there and get out of it.

Speaker 5: That's the only thing that makes any sense in my

mind on there.

Speaker 3: And so she wants me to be the scapegoat.

Speaker 2: I don't know who killed her.

Speaker 5: I don't.

Speaker 2: I believe Paige had it done.

Speaker 6: I don't know if she did it.

Speaker 2: I don't know if she had someone do it.

Speaker 3: I don't know.

Speaker 2: That's the impressions I.

Speaker 5: Got is that she had it arranged.

Speaker 3: I don't know what to believe.

Speaker 5: I don't honestly I have no idea what to believe.

Speaker 2: I don't know what's true and what's not. What's a game?

Speaker 1: Marty Grismer was charged with murder and later entered in

a Ford plea, receiving a 15 year prison sentence. Detectives

also considered the possibility that Scott and Page were involved.

But that remained a theory. You've been listening to true

crime from podcast studios. Thanks for being here and we'll

see you in the next one.