Killer Mom Starves 16 Y⧸O Autistic Son till Death, Thinks She's Supermom - Police Interrogation
Killer Mom Starves 16 Y⧸O Autistic Son till Death, Thinks She's Supermom - Police Interrogation
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Speaker 1: Hello and welcome to your True Crime Podcast. In Springfield Township,
police interviewed Tamara Moore after her 16-year-old adopted son, J.J., died.
During the interrogation, Moore discussed his medical needs, the conditions
at home, and the events leading up to the 911 call.
Speaker 2: I noticed the, uh.
We noticed the lock on the door.
Speaker 3: Mm-hmm. Um.
Speaker 2: That was on the outside.
Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
Speaker 4: Was there any reason for that?
Speaker 3: I don't, sir, I don't go down there. I don't
go in that room.
Speaker 2: Not the bedroom. We're not talking about the bedroom. JJ's room.
We're talking about the room to the laundry room. There's
a lock to keep. It's on the outside.
Speaker 3: I don't use that lock. Okay.
Speaker 2: You good? You're all right now?
Speaker 3: I'm okay. Okay.
Speaker 2: Do you need water or anything?
Speaker 3: No. Okay. Okay.
Speaker 2: So, obviously, I know you've been here for a little
bit waiting for us and being patient. We really do
appreciate that. You're going through a very tough time, and
we're sorry about everything that's happened.
Speaker 5: Obviously, we just talked to William, and he's expressed that
you guys have been going through a lot over the
last few months.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 5: But just so you know, my name is Lieutenant Matt Wiltshire,
Detective Justin Paulinelli. We obviously work for Springfield Township Police
Department here. And we just want to talk to you about,
you call him JJ, is that what you guys call him? Okay,
we just want to talk to you about, you know,
as much as we can to try and learn, you know,
how things were for you guys.
Speaker 2: And everything else.
Speaker 5: But we're probably going to ask you some questions that
maybe somebody else has already asked you.
Speaker 2: Maybe somebody didn't tell us.
Speaker 5: If you have questions for us, please, by all means,
Let us know if you need a break, if you
need to go to the bathroom again.
Speaker 2: Or you want something, please let us know, okay?
Speaker 5: So, real quick, what is, just, I'm asking you, it's
going to be silly, but I already know your name,
but what's your name?
Speaker 3: Tamara Moore.
Speaker 2: T-A-M-E-R-A, right?
Speaker 3: T-A-M-A-R-A.
Speaker 2: T-A-M-A-R-A, okay. M-O-O-R-E, right?
Speaker 3: That's correct, yeah.
Speaker 2: Okay. What's your birthday, Tamara?
Speaker 3: 8-13-71.
Speaker 2: And what's a good phone number for you? And what's
your address on Bell Green there? 11890.
Speaker 3: How long have you.
Speaker 2: Been living there?
Speaker 3: 29 years, I believe. Gotcha.
Speaker 2: And did you live there with?
Speaker 3: My mother, William, JJ, dog that just passed, and two cats.
My mother recently passed.
Speaker 2: What was your mom's name?
Speaker 3: Lavinia, L-A, capital V, E-N-I-A, Sims. Gotcha.
Speaker 2: JJ was 16, is that right?
Speaker 3: No, he'll be 17. 17 in April.
Speaker 2: 17 in April, okay.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And, again, probably somebody asked you this, but how long,
JJ's adopted, is that right? Yes. You adopt him, okay.
Speaker 3: He was my foster son. He came to me at
11 months. So he's been with me since 11 months. Gotcha.
Speaker 2: And you eventually adopted him, is that right? At five.
And you legally adopted him at five?
Speaker 3: Yeah. Okay.
Speaker 2: Okay.
Speaker 3: Oh, Jesus.
Speaker 5: And this is the only place that he's ever lived,
so he's always lived here on Bill.
Speaker 2: Green and everything else?
Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2: Okay. Do you work?
Speaker 3: No. Disability. I have three autoimmune diseases, and I have
been the main caregiver for my mother. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2: And she just passed around Thanksgiving, is that right?
Speaker 3: Yes, we buried her in December.
Speaker 5: Are you the main caregiver for JJ as well?
Speaker 3: That's correct.
Speaker 2: Does William work?
Speaker 3: No. Okay. He helped me care for Mom. She was paralyzed. Gotcha.
Speaker 5: So she couldn't really help do anything with JJ or
anything like that either?
Speaker 3: No.
Speaker 2: And how long have you known William?
Speaker 3: We went to prom together. He's older. And then we
lost contact, so 30 years. Okay.
Speaker 2: So you've known him for probably 30 years?
Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2: How long have you guys, would you guys say you've
been dating or engaged?
Speaker 3: Dating 13, 14. Okay.
Speaker 2: And I'm only saying engaged because he said you guys
are engaged.
Speaker 3: Yeah, we are. The seven years.
Speaker 2: So seven years you've been engaged, you'll say?
Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2: How long has he lived with you on Belgrim?
Speaker 3: Six years. When I started getting really sick. Okay.
Speaker 2: Okay.
Speaker 3: And then.
Speaker 5: I kind of think I got an idea of the
house because I haven't been there, so I'm only, and
that's one of the things that when we ask you questions,
I know it might seem a little strange, but it
seems like.
Speaker 2: It's a buyable house, right?
Speaker 5: There's downstairs at the front door, upstairs, living room, kitchen, bedrooms,
back there, downstairs, like the basement area.
Speaker 3: JJ was in the basement. We had an electrical problem. Okay.
Happened October the 28th. That's the warmest area. And I
was told by his doctor to kind of keep him
away from like a TV if he had a grandma
seizure or anywhere he could hit his head. And so
he had a favorite spot for him was his cot.
He wouldn't like anyone to touch his cot. And so
we could close the door and it would hold heat. Okay.
And so I felt like that was the safest spot.
If he fell, he wouldn't hit his head or anything.
So that's where we put him. I knew he'd be safe. Okay.
And he wouldn't have a fear of maybe, even if
he hit his head on the washing machine, it wouldn't
be as bad as the TV or a dresser. Okay. Gotcha.
It'd be warm for him because the house was cold.
Speaker 2: It was cold. That's What was the electrical problem? Was
it just some old wiring, things like that?
Speaker 3: A search happened in our neighborhood, and they came out.
I was waiting for people to work cooperatively to send
someone to help us. We had so much going on.
Speaker 2: I understand.
Speaker 5: You had a lot going on. So JJ is autistic,
is that right? Is there anything else that he had
going on?
Speaker 3: Yes. He has grand mal seizures. He's epileptic. He has
a frontal lobe problem. It doesn't spark. So he sees
his neurologist just retired, Dr. Shapiro, but he had a
pending virtual appointment with a new neurologist at Children's Hospital
for this Thursday because he just had a grand mal
seizure last night and the night before. I just administered
Mayslim and he seemed to be doing okay, but I
just wanted to follow up. Our car caught on fire,
and I didn't have transportation, but I wanted to make
sure that he was seen. And to make sure that
he had grown, and I just wanted to make sure
that particular medication suited his growth, because I didn't think
it was enough to accommodate it.
Speaker 2: When you say medication to suit his growth, he was taking... Anti-seizure. Anti-seizure, okay.
Speaker 3: Mm-hmm. And... Liquid form. He also sees a psychiatrist. His
pediatrician also left the practice. So I was trying to
wait to see to find someone. But he sees his psychiatrist,
his doctor, Raina Gilmore. He takes Sertraline and Clonidine.
Speaker 2: Okay. When's the last time he saw doctors? Was that
recent or.
Speaker 3: He sees Dr. Gilmore. We have a virtual appointment every
month with her. She checks in every month just to
see how he's adjusting with his medication because with his
form of autism, he's basically non-communicative, and he has a
lot of self-injurious behaviors. Okay. When he's frustrated, he may
bite or hit. So this medication is to kind of
keep him calm. And so she's become like a... not
only a good psychiatrist, but like a friend to him.
Speaker 2: Where is Dr. Gilmore at? Where is she?
Speaker 3: Children's Central Clinic on Burnett.
Speaker 2: Okay.
Speaker 3: She even came to my mother's service to comfort him. Okay.
Speaker 2: Does he go there, or is that all virtual?
Speaker 3: He goes there every once in a while, but monthly
she checks him virtually just to get an update on
how he's doing.
Speaker 2: When do you think the last time he was actually
in a doctor's office was?
Speaker 3: Maybe six months ago. For that, for her. Dr. Shapiro,
maybe six months. He's due now, but Dr. Shapiro retired.
Speaker 2: Did anybody ever come to the house?
Speaker 5: Did you ever have home health care, anything like that?
Speaker 3: No.
Speaker 5: Does he have a case manager or anything like that
that helps you with this?
Speaker 3: He has a manager with DDS. They don't call. It's
very difficult to find someone to help, especially since COVID.
That's it.
Speaker 2: So you don't have somebody specific that you call at
DDS if you just said, hey, I need help they
would have to just give you whoever okay.
Speaker 5: And no one comes to visit him there visit you
guys there anything like that okay.
Speaker 2: I think probably the biggest thing that.
Speaker 5: We want to try at least figure out is just
how things were today and maybe for the last couple
days if there were some things that maybe you noticed
with JJ.
Speaker 2: You said he has seizures, so tell me how that
kind of works out.
Speaker 3: When he has grand mal seizures, he has a lot
of falls and he's more aggressive. It was trying to
keep him calm and comfortable. So that meant he may
soil himself. And so... We don't have hot water, so
I didn't want him to have a cold shower. So
just getting baby wipes so he wasn't the cleanest that
he could be. And just me changing him and giving him,
he's not fully potty trained. Okay. So me changing his
briefs and keeping him calm. But he had back-to-back seizures,
but he seemed like last night, He was coming to himself.
But I still had a concern as to why back-to-back
grandma seizures. And I determined that he's noncommunicative, but I
believe he was grieving. I believe he was missing my mom.
Speaker 2: I'm so sure.
Speaker 5: When he has seizures, and like you said, it's not
normal for him to have back-to-back ones like that. Is
that something that you call doctors for or reach out
and say, hey, he had two back-to-back seizures, this isn't normal?
Speaker 2: Did you reach out to anybody for those?
Speaker 3: I made that appointment. They said, go ahead and make
an appointment. We'll try to get you in virtually. Okay.
Speaker 2: So you made an appointment yesterday?
Speaker 3: Yes. Okay.
Speaker 2: Would that have been with Dr. Gilmore?
Speaker 3: No, that's with the neurology department. It's a new doctor.
I can't think of the name. At Children's and Liberty.
It's supposed to be for Thursday, I believe, at 1130. Gotcha.
Speaker 5: You made that with them yesterday because of the grand
mal seizures and the back-to-back.
Speaker 2: Ones, okay.
Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2: Where's his medicine at there? Do you keep it all
in the same spot?
Speaker 3: Pretty much. I gave the other detective. I showed him
the prescriptions and gave him the list of medications that
he takes.
Speaker 2: Okay, gotcha. I didn't know if you kept them in
the refrigerator or if you kept them anywhere. Okay, gotcha.
So when he had the seizures yesterday, did he fall? Yes.
Speaker 3: Okay.
Speaker 2: And how did he fall?
Speaker 3: He fell forward, and luckily he was downstairs. The day
before that, he fell, but he didn't hit his head.
He hit his shoulder.
Speaker 5: Did he hit his head yesterday?
Speaker 3: Yes.
Speaker 2: Okay.
Speaker 3: And he got up.
Speaker 2: When he fell forward and hit his head?
Speaker 3: Yeah. He got up. and I gave him a seizure medication,
and he responded. And I've been told that if he
responds and it doesn't look like he's laxed or anything,
just keep him comfortable. And the times that I have
called children, they just kind of call me back and
say he's fine, give him a seizure medication, and watch him,
keep him as comfortable as possible. So... that's you know
and make an appointment so that's what i did.
Speaker 5: When he fell on his head do you think it
hit his head hard do you think it was no
he didn't hit his head nothing that i mean so
no marks it wasn't bleeding nothing like that.
Speaker 3: Okay he kind of like hurt his a little mark
on his lip.
Speaker 5: Okay so i know you said that he wasn't potty
trained um How often do you have to change his diaper?
Could he tell you when it's time to go to
the bathroom?
Speaker 3: I usually say it's time to have a boo-boo. Right.
And he'll go to the bathroom.
Speaker 2: So he can go to the bathroom himself, but he
won't do it on his own? You have to tell him?
Speaker 3: Mm-hmm. Okay.
Speaker 5: How often or frequently would you have to change his
diaper if he's wearing a diaper?
Speaker 3: Maybe three times a day. He might not have a
bowel movement, but he'll urinate in his brief. Okay.
Speaker 2: Okay. So verbally, there's no verbal communication. He can't really
say anything.
Speaker 3: I can understand his needs. But for instance, if you
met him, you wouldn't be able to understand it. Right.
Speaker 5: So he has noises. Does he actually say, does he
form words or anything?
Speaker 3: No. Okay.
Speaker 2: So his grunts can mean certain things.
Speaker 3: Okay.
Speaker 5: Nobody came, no one came to the house to see
him or anything like that.
Speaker 2: The only people that have been at the house have
been you and William. And you said there's a couple
cats there still, is that right? How long have you
not had hot water?
Speaker 3: We went after mom passed. My friends that are outside,
they decided, the one friend decided to pay for us
to stay at Extended Stag because it was too cold.
So we were there for about six weeks. We've only
been back for about two. So the house is a mess.
We were trying to get rid of things to think
about selling the house as is. So we've been without
hot water since October the 28th. Gotcha. So we've been
taking ice cold showers, quick ice cold showers, or warming
up a pot and filling the tub.
Speaker 2: But you stayed in an extended stay for a while?
Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2: Which extended stay were you guys at?
Speaker 3: Blue Ash.
Speaker 2: Blue Ash?
Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2: How long were you there? Do you remember the dates?
Speaker 3: From about the 19th to about a couple of weeks ago.
It's a blur right now.
Speaker 2: So December?
Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2: Until just a couple weeks ago?
Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2: Sure. So in the house, where do you sleep at?
Do you have a bedroom down there in the basement or.
Speaker 3: Do you sleep upstairs? No, I don't sleep upstairs.
Speaker 2: You sleep upstairs?
Speaker 3: Mm-hmm. Okay. It's cold.
Speaker 2: Gotcha. Do you and William share a room upstairs?
Speaker 3: Yes. Okay.
Speaker 2: So you said that there's a cot that's by the
washing machine.
Speaker 5: That's his special cot that he likes to have, his
favorite cot.
Speaker 2: There's no other bed that he sleeps in or anything?
Speaker 3: Normally in his room there is, but it's too cold.
Speaker 2: Which room is his room?
Speaker 3: He has a third bedroom.
Speaker 2: A third bedroom? Is that upstairs or downstairs?
Speaker 3: Upstairs. Upstairs, okay. Gotcha.
Speaker 2: And he doesn't, what kind of activities does he, I mean,
is there anything that he does? I mean, does he,
does he like? Color, draw, what does he like?
Speaker 3: He birdwatches. Okay. My aunt, she sends tons of books
on birdwatching. He has date binoculars. He watches, we work
on YouTube videos all day. He likes sounds. He likes basketball.
He loves Batman. He's just, he just can't communicate. Right.
But he's just a normal kid. Okay.
Speaker 2: Are you concerned about, obviously, when he has seizures....
Speaker 5: He can fall or hurt himself or anything do you
do anything to if you're if you're asleep or if
you're not around, is there something that you do to
prevent him from harming himself or falling from the cot?
Speaker 3: Yeah, so I move everything away. That's why it's, I'm
constantly going up and down the steps, even with my cane.
That's why I don't want him in the room up there.
It's cold. And I just, it's not safe. It's just
not safe. We took the glass. He uses my mom's shower.
I took the glass out of the shower. And even
though I'm there when he takes the shower, he hates that.
But I have to watch him because I'm afraid that
if he has a seizure in the shower, he could
fall and hurt himself.
Speaker 2: Is he capable of doing those things on his own?
Could he? Could he get up and walk into the bathroom,
take a shower, take a bath? Could he do those
things on his own?
Speaker 3: Yes. Okay.
Speaker 2: I mean, he needs assistance. I was going to say,
would he need you to say, let's go do this?
Speaker 3: Yeah, he would need that.
Speaker 2: Could he wash himself if he needed, if he was
going to do that?
Speaker 3: With assistance, you can say, okay, JJ, wipe your legs,
wipe your stomach, wipe your face.
Speaker 2: Okay, gotcha. And if he was in his room, he
could get up and come upstairs. He was allowed to
come upstairs?
Speaker 3: Absolutely. Okay, gotcha.
Speaker 5: Did you put anything like any soft, I don't know,
is the basement carpeted? Is that, okay, so it's cement
in the basement where he's at?
Speaker 2: Okay. And again, I haven't been in the house.
Speaker 5: I will say that I have seen some pictures that
we just, one of the detectives that was over there
that you probably saw and talked to, you know, seems
some kind of getting a little bit better idea.
Speaker 2: Of some of the things that were there, but.
Speaker 5: I guess, I mean, I think part of what I'm
looking at and trying to see is that there's some
things that I think we saw that are concerning for us.
And I don't know if this was something normal and
I'm trying to figure out so that way when somebody
asks us these questions beyond tonight, and if you're not aware,
I don't want to seem insensitive, but obviously they're going
to do an autopsy on JJ. They're going to try
to figure out what would have happened to him, if
this was seizure related, if there was some other medical
event that happened, or if there was something else. And
when I say something else, that means could somebody have
done something to him? And that sounds bad to you,
but that's our job. That's our job is to try
and ask questions that if one of the pathologists says, hey,
what do you think about this? And so some of
the questions that we're asking are trying to figure out,
did JJ hurt himself?
Speaker 2: Did he fall? Did he have marked?
Speaker 5: Could he have, anything could have happened to him that
they could say this is attributed to seizures or this
is attributed to something else?
Speaker 3: I understand.
Speaker 2: Did he ever have broken bones or anything that you're
aware of? Nothing I'm aware of. So he's never been
treated for any broken bones or anything?
Speaker 3: He had leg braces.
Speaker 2: He had leg braces?
Speaker 3: For about four years.
Speaker 2: Okay.
Speaker 5: And that was just for helping him walk, and is
that pretty much it? Or did he have, was it
helping him with mobility or straightening his legs out?
Speaker 3: Yeah, straightening his legs out.
Speaker 2: Okay, gotcha. Is there anything, if.
Speaker 5: JJ was acting out, let's just say he was having
a bad day, is there anything that you would do
that he would understand would be like a form of discipline?
And you can tell me, I mean, if it was spankings,
if it was timeouts, if it was, He didn't get
to do stuff.
Speaker 2: Time outs.
Speaker 3: You're not going to get your muffins.
Speaker 2: Okay.
Speaker 3: A very stern voice. Yes.
Speaker 2: Okay. Was there any physical discipline, like spankings or anything?
Speaker 3: He's too big and I'm too tired.
Speaker 2: Sure. I understand. Again, questions that we want to ask
just to make sure. Did William do any discipline?
Speaker 3: He's a little tougher than I am, yeah.
Speaker 4: And just the physical side or more of just like
raising his voice?
Speaker 3: Raising his voice and maybe pushing him back if JJ
would come after me. Oh, okay.
Speaker 4: So just kind of like separate you guys.
Speaker 3: Okay.
Speaker 4: When you said JJ would self-harm sometimes, what did you
mean by that? Did he scratch himself?
Speaker 3: Did he?
Speaker 4: Cut himself or.
Speaker 3: No cutting okay injurious behaviors okay um he's autistic sure
and if he gets frustrated he hits himself in the
head okay he may scratch himself he may bite himself
okay he may punch himself and i would say no
don't hurt my jj.
Speaker 4: Okay gotcha did anyone leave any scars or anything yeah
so he he would he would bite himself and scratch
himself pretty good okay.
Speaker 3: And that's one of the reasons why he has psychiatric health.
Speaker 5: Sure.
Speaker 2: Did any of the doctors see this? So when they
would do video conferences or anything, or if they actually
saw him at the hospital or the doctor's office?
Speaker 3: Yeah. Okay.
Speaker 2: And did Dr. Gilmore see that type of behavior from him?
Speaker 3: She did.
Speaker 5: Um which room was jj's room upstairs so like if
i'm i'm thinking you go upstairs you go to the
left the bedrooms are over that way okay so if
you go down the hall.
Speaker 3: Mine was in the back his was on the left.
Speaker 2: Okay so who was he the first one on the
left okay gotcha um.
Speaker 5: What were the, on the cot, there is like a
cloth and like a strap that's on there, on both
sides of the bed.
Speaker 2: What are those?
Speaker 3: Those were there when he would try to hurt himself.
Speaker 5: Okay.
Speaker 3: But I didn't keep that on there. Okay. That was
not working. When he would have a seizure, he would
get very aggressive, and it just didn't work. Okay.
Speaker 2: So there's like restraints? Is that what they're meant to be?
I don't want to put the wrong word out there, but.
Speaker 5: It looked to me like what I could see from
the pictures that there were some restraints.
Speaker 3: And I didn't like it. Okay. That did not help.
Speaker 4: Was that suggested to you by somebody or was it
a doctor?
Speaker 2: No.
Speaker 3: No.
Speaker 4: Who was it suggested by?
Speaker 3: Just a friend. Okay.
Speaker 4: Did you ever try using them?
Speaker 3: No. No. Okay.
Speaker 2: So did you ever use them on him?
Speaker 3: No. Okay.
Speaker 2: If William said that J.J.
Speaker 5: Stayed in that room all the time because if he
was out of that room, he would do stuff and
get into everything.
Speaker 2: And trash the house, would that be true?
Speaker 3: No. Okay.
Speaker 5: So if William said that he had to stay in
that room all the time because that was the best
place for him to keep him from getting into anything,
that wouldn't be true?
Speaker 2: No.
Speaker 3: Was in the state of after he had a seizure,
he would get very aggressive. It was the best and
safest place for him then.
Speaker 5: But he wouldn't stay in there the whole time. No,
he would be able to come upstairs and sit, sit wherever.
Speaker 2: You guys were.
Speaker 3: Okay.
Speaker 2: Um, What did you do today? How did today go?
What did you guys do? Did you wake up? JJ
wake up? William wake up? Did you guys all wake
up at the same time, different times?
Speaker 3: No, different times. I had to take care of some
things and call my aunt and then check on JJ,
but I did not want him to move around as
much because he was sick. Okay.
Speaker 2: So did he stay in the room most of the
day today? Mm-hmm.
Speaker 3: Okay.
Speaker 2: So he stayed there. He didn't come up or anything
like that?
Speaker 3: No.
Speaker 2: Okay. How often did you check on him today?
Speaker 3: I checked on him in the morning, and then when
I went back down, I found him. Gotcha.
Speaker 5: Were you concerned that if there was anything in the
basement that he could get into that could be harmful
to him or that would be dangerous for him to
be able to be around?
Speaker 3: No, he wasn't going to do it. He just didn't.
I didn't think about that.
Speaker 5: There wasn't anything that you felt? was more of a
danger for him to be around down there than there
would be if he thought his bedroom, just because it
was colder, that was easier?
Speaker 3: It was warmer, that's all I was thinking about, was
keeping him warm.
Speaker 5: Did you have the ability to plug in a heater
or anything upstairs?
Speaker 3: It goes out. It's just cold. There's no electricity. If
you look in the hallway, you cannot turn the hallway
light on. The heat goes out upstairs. For some reason,
it stays on downstairs.
Speaker 2: I don't know if.
Speaker 5: You had an extension cord that could run up the
steps to the room or anything like that.
Speaker 3: It cuts off. It cuts right off.
Speaker 2: Because it looked like there was a heater that was
in the basement downstairs by the washing machine.
Speaker 3: That's the one that stays on.
Speaker 2: That stays on?
Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2: There wasn't a way to run the extension cord downstairs?
Up to the room or anything?
Speaker 5: No.
Speaker 3: I don't know. I'm just doing the best I can.
I'm sorry. I understand.
Speaker 2: I didn't know.
Speaker 5: And I'm just thinking because the laundry room, the things
that were down there. the fact that the furnace is
right there um you know it seemed like it wouldn't
have been as that his bedroom might have been a
little bit better but i understand that you wanted to
be warm and keep everything else.
Speaker 3: I don't know i'm tired i just didn't that was
the best thing for me at the time okay.
Speaker 5: Did you ever think about reaching out to ask somebody
for help to say, hey, we're in a tough spot?
Speaker 2: I've been calling people working cooperatively.
Speaker 3: And my friends have paid for that. I'm trying to
sell the house to get something that we can afford
and as is. That was my plan. That's what I
was working on today, to get out of there to
sell the house as is. Okay. Because people working cooperatively
has not called me back. Okay.
Speaker 2: Do you have family or friends?
Speaker 5: I know you said friends, but do you have family
that are around that could have been helping or could
have tried to help?
Speaker 2: Or I don't know what your relationship is. I'm only
asking because I don't know the answer to that.
Speaker 3: With my mother just passing, my resources... Sure.
Speaker 2: I understand.
Speaker 3: Yeah. So my best bet was to sell the house and...
us live comfortably with heat. So that's what I was
trying to do. I do have family. I'm very blessed.
I do have friends, but they also have family, and
they also have other things that they're doing as well.
And when my mother got sick, my resources and everybody
was trying to help with that. There's only so much
you can do to ask people. Right. And there's only
so many resources that they can do for you before
they say, hey, you're on your own. We can only
do so much. We just buried my mother. Sure.
Speaker 2: Believe me, I completely understand.
Speaker 5: And that's why I'm asking if there was somebody that
you reached out to or somebody that was willing to help,
that a little bit.
Speaker 2: Here, a little bit there. And I get it. You know,
people get to that spot, too, where they have to
go to that or help and say, enough's enough.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 5: You know, my concern is for JJ. I mean, he's
in a position where if he can't really communicate, if
something's really wrong, he can't really communicate if something's not right.
Speaker 3: I understand.
Speaker 5: You know, that's where I'm looking at this from the
standpoint of if something was going on with him today,
and if you checked on him once in the morning,
and then you checked on him again in the afternoon,
and then this happened. So that's kind of why I'm like,
you know, What time do you think it was that
you checked.
Speaker 2: On him in the morning? Around 11.
Speaker 3: And so what I did was I got on the
phone and started calling people to say, hey, can you
buy this house? We need to get rid of this house.
We have no heat here. Let's get rid of this
as soon as we possibly can. That was what I
was trying to do. At the same time, sir, I
have three autoimmune diseases. I'm very sick. Mm-hmm. I just
lost my mother. I just lost my dog. But I've
always put JJ first. He's been my first and foremost priority.
I'm tired. I'm tired. I just buried my mother. The
house is falling apart. The car is caught on fire.
I wanted to get rid of the house. My first
thing is, my son and I are cold. I call
people working cooperatively as much as I can. I've asked friends,
do you know of any services? There's only so much
that I can do. I've given everything to the people
that I've loved. I was the primary caregiver with three
autoimmune diseases taking care of my mother and taking care
of a special needs son. I don't ask for a handout.
I don't ask for a handout, but it's been overwhelming,
and I've given everything that I could. Sometimes I don't
think I'm tired. That was the warmest place. I wasn't thinking.
I wasn't thinking, oh, I can put an extension cord
and then take it up here and do this and
do that. I wasn't thinking. I just wasn't. But I
did think, like, okay, my next thing. I can't fix
this house up, but I can sell it as is,
get some money, get something more reasonable for us, and
we can be warm. We can't go another winter. We
can't go in the heat. We can get the heck
up out of here. and live our lives. So that's
when I start pulling out fillers to my family members. Hey,
we need to get out of here. We need to
live our lives. JJ needs the best quality of life.
What can we do? That's what I was doing this
morning when I woke up. I called my mother's retirement
place to see if I could get something from her
pension to get the heck up out of here. My
first and foremost priority has always been my son. It's
always been my mother. I have sacrificed so much that
I've sacrificed myself. Myself. So that we could have a
better quality of life. This has just been a hard,
hard time. A horrible time.
Speaker 5: I agree. You've been going through a lot. I think
that's why I'm just trying to figure out. I understand
that you want to be able to do all these
things and it doesn't go as quickly as you'd like
them to.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 5: And believe me, I'm not trying to take away from
the fact that you've adopted, you know, a special needs child,
that you've been taking care of him.
Speaker 2: Like you said, you've been going through a lot. You
lost your mom. You lost a family pet.
Speaker 5: You know, the house is going in a different direction
than you want it to go. And, again, I'm just
trying to, like I said, the questions that I'm asking
are specifically going to probably be asked of us by,
take your pick of the number of people that would
ask these questions.
Speaker 3: I understand. I understand.
Speaker 2: And that's what I mean. So last night, JJ went
to bed. He slept on the cot. Is that right?
Speaker 3: Yes, that's correct.
Speaker 2: What time do you think he went to bed?
Speaker 3: Let's see. He tried to come up, and I said, honey,
you need to lay down. About 9.30.
Speaker 2: So he probably went to sleep about 9.30 last night?
Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2: Okay. And then you didn't see him again until about 11?
Speaker 3: Mm-hmm. Okay. Okay.
Speaker 2: And when you saw him again at 11 the next day,
he was awake. What happened then? Did he eat? Did
he come upstairs?
Speaker 3: No, he did not come upstairs. He ate and drank
a little. He did not really, excuse me, he wanted
something solid, but I was afraid that with him having
a seizure, I don't want him to have a seizure
and have something that would obstruct his pathway. So I
just gave him soup. and something to drink, and kind
of crushed his medication in it. And I said, I'll
check on you. I just need you to rest.
Speaker 2: And that was at 11. You gave it to him downstairs?
Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2: Okay. Can he do that on his own? Can he
eat the soup on his own?
Speaker 3: Mm-hmm. Okay.
Speaker 2: You didn't have to stay down there and feed him
or anything?
Speaker 3: No. Okay.
Speaker 5: And he stayed down there that entire time?
Speaker 3: Mm-hmm. Just kind of curled up. Gotcha.
Speaker 2: What did William do? What does he do when he
gets up?
Speaker 3: Um, he got some coffee. I wasn't really paying attention
to him because I was trying to handle what I
needed to do for the day. Okay.
Speaker 2: Um, so he got coffee and he just, he didn't
do it.
Speaker 3: You don't know.
Speaker 2: He don't know where he was.
Speaker 3: Yeah. I was on a mission to figure out, um,
to call my brother and find out had he heard
anybody about buying our house to call or purrs to
get medication refills. I was not paying attention to William
and what he was doing.
Speaker 2: So after 11, when's the next time that you saw JJ?
Speaker 3: After I made all my calls and I talked to
my aunt, I said, I need to check on JJ.
I wanted to rest, wanted him to rest. Let me
go down and see how he's doing. When I went
down there, I knew that something was wrong. I just
stopped calling 911 because I think I went into shock.
I think I went into shock.
Speaker 2: What time was that? So you went down, thought something
was wrong, and then called 911?
Speaker 3: Mm-hmm. I waited a while, honestly, until I called my brother-in-law.
He said, honey, you've got to call 911. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2: What time do you think that you noticed that something
was wrong with JJ?
Speaker 3: Closer to 4. Okay. 3-ish, 4-ish.
Speaker 2: So you never saw him between 11 and 4?
Speaker 3: I wanted him to rest, and I knew that after
a seizure, he's very, very lethargic. Okay. Yeah. And it's
very important that you rest.
Speaker 2: So after around four, you say you waited a while
to call.
Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2: You called your brother?
Speaker 3: My brother-in-law.
Speaker 2: Okay, called your brother-in-law?
Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2: What's his name?
Speaker 3: Terry.
Speaker 2: What's his last name?
Speaker 3: Daniels.
Speaker 2: And then what did Terry tell you?
Speaker 3: He said, I think you're in shock, honey. Mm-hmm. I
think you need to call. And I was like, I
don't want anybody taking him.
Speaker 2: Did you tell Terry that you thought something was wrong
with JJ?
Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2: How long do you think you guys talked?
Speaker 3: I don't know, honestly. Okay.
Speaker 2: And he's the one that told you that you need
to call 911?
Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2: And did you hang up and then call 911?
Speaker 3: I did. Okay.
Speaker 5: Was there ever a point in time, like around 1,
that you might have saw him or went down there
and saw JJ?
Speaker 2: No.
Speaker 3: Okay. I did ask William. I said, did you check
on him? And he said he did. and he was fine.
Speaker 2: William said that he checked on him?
Speaker 3: Mm-hmm. Okay.
Speaker 2: If William told us that he never checked on him,
would that be wrong?
Speaker 3: Excuse me?
Speaker 2: If William said that he never checked on him today,
that he never saw JJ today, would that be wrong?
Speaker 5: Um.
Speaker 3: He said he checked on him and he was fine. Okay.
Speaker 2: So he just told you, you asked him and he
said that he checked on him.
Speaker 3: Okay. Do you.
Speaker 2: Know what time that was?
Speaker 3: That was about one. Okay. So that gave me time
to continue to take care of my business.
Speaker 2: That was one that wasn't checked on him, you think?
I thought, yeah.
Speaker 4: Is that typical that you wouldn't check on JJ until 11?
Speaker 3: No. Okay. On a typical day, he's with me.
Speaker 2: Okay.
Speaker 3: But.
Speaker 4: I was just thinking from 9.30 p.m.
Speaker 2: To 11.
Speaker 3: No. Normally, he's up. He gets up by clockwork. Gotcha.
But with him having a seizure, I'm just like, okay,
I'm just going to let his body rest. Mm-hmm. Let
him just, and then I'll take care of my business.
I'm just going to, I'm not going to get him
all worked up. I'm just going to let him rest. No,
he's up and I'm up. Okay. He's up at like 730.
We're up at 730.
Speaker 4: Were you or William concerned at all come 9 o'clock,
10 o'clock that you haven't seen or heard from JJ?
Speaker 3: No, because William goes down there. So I would think
that if he had a concern, he would tell me.
So I'm on the phone waiting for the people to
come to the line, and I just would think that
if he had a concern, and then I went down there,
I thought, well, I'll just let him rest and fix
him something and go down there. Just let him get
better and rest, and I'll go down there and check
on him.
Speaker 2: Whose other room is that in the basement?
Speaker 3: That's William's. I don't go down there.
Speaker 2: So if he said that's where you guys sleep, that's
not true?
Speaker 3: No. Go down there. I noticed the....
Speaker 2: We noticed the lock on the door.
Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2: That was on the outside.
Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
Speaker 4: Was there any reason for that?
Speaker 3: I don't, sir, I don't go down there. I don't
go in that room.
Speaker 2: Not the bedroom. We're not talking about the bedroom. JJ's room.
We're talking about the room to the laundry room. There's
a lock to keep. It's on the outside.
Speaker 3: I don't use that lock.
Speaker 2: It would keep anybody from inside to come out to
go in.
Speaker 3: No, I don't do that. Okay. Yeah.
Speaker 5: Did JJ ever use the bathroom today? Did he go
into the bathroom? Did you have to change him or anything?
Speaker 3: I changed him.
Speaker 2: What time did you change him?
Speaker 3: That was this morning.
Speaker 2: So you changed him at 11?
Speaker 3: Mm-hmm. No. I didn't want him out of bed.
Speaker 2: And then you didn't change him again after that?
Speaker 3: Mm-mm.
Speaker 2: Okay.
Speaker 4: Was he complaining of any pains, like holding his stomach?
Speaker 5: No.
Speaker 4: His head or anything from him.
Speaker 3: Okay.
Speaker 2: Do you think William would have done something to hurt JJ?
Speaker 3: I would hope he wouldn't.
Speaker 2: Has he ever hurt JJ before?
Speaker 3: He's gotten frustrated with him. And He doesn't have as
much understanding as I do. Okay. It's tough.
Speaker 2: It really is.
Speaker 5: Does William help you with getting him places, taking him
to doctors, moving him around, feeding him or anything?
Speaker 3: Just driving to appointments.
Speaker 2: Does he help give him meds or anything?
Speaker 3: No. Okay.
Speaker 2: And you're not concerned that That J.J.
Speaker 5: Could have done something in the basement, that he could
have any of the things that are down there in that.
Speaker 2: Basement that he could have either gotten into?
Speaker 3: He can't open things. He doesn't have the capability to
open tops.
Speaker 2: Okay.
Speaker 5: So he can't... So nothing down there that, whether it's
laundry detergent or any other chemicals or anything like that,
he wouldn't have.
Speaker 2: The ability to open? No. To ingest or anything?
Speaker 3: No. Okay.
Speaker 5: Do you think there's any injuries on JJ that would
be considered new or fresh?
Speaker 3: Unless he got frustrated with himself, that would be the
only thing. It's just it would be self-injurious.
Speaker 5: Other than, so I'm only saying that his incident yesterday
where he fell forward and you said there might have
been maybe a mark on his lip, was there anything
that you can say, okay, that isn't more than.
Speaker 2: A couple days old, that's something that would be relatively new?
Speaker 5: So any type of bruising should be relatively older, nothing
relatively new?
Speaker 3: No. Okay.
Speaker 2: No other injuries on his arms, legs, chest, back, anything
like that?
Speaker 3: No. Okay. Okay.
Speaker 2: I know the other detective that you talked to there,
I think he's back. He wanted to talk to us
real quick. We're just going to step out for a quick.
Speaker 5: Minute, talk to him, and then if there's anything else
you think of that could be important, by all means,
tell us, let us know, and then we'll kind of
do what we can to get you guys going so
you can get out of here at some point and
not be here, obviously, the rest of the night.
Speaker 2: I don't think anybody wants to be here the rest
of the night, but.
We'll come back in just a little bit. Do you
need anything right now? Do you need anything?
Speaker 3: Okay, gotcha.
Speaker 2: We're still going to hang on to your phone. Real quick,
on your phone, can you show me where you called
your brother? Is that all right?
Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2: If you would, just put it down there so that
way we can kind of see it. Is that your brother?
Speaker 5: Yeah. That's William's sister got it, okay. So it's a
missed call from him, right?
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 5: So these are missed calls, 82. Here, if you scroll,
if you do this, so, like, obviously these are, so
you can see the time periods where people were calling
or do whatever, so.
Speaker 3: Um, Yeah, there it is.
Speaker 2: So is this the time that you would have called him?
Speaker 3: Mm-hmm. Okay. Gotcha.
Speaker 2: So you called him about 6.06?
Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2: Okay. It says incoming call at 6.06 from him. Maybe 5.41.
I'll just say 5.41. That's it. Okay.
Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
Speaker 4: Okay.
Speaker 3: Gotcha.
Speaker 2: Do you care if I write his phone number down?
He lives out of state, I'm guessing.
Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2: Where does he live?
Speaker 3: He lives in California. Okay.
Speaker 2: So you talked to him. It looks like 541. Mm-hmm.
And then he called again at?
Speaker 3: 606 and you.
Speaker 2: Talked for five minutes and then you called.
Speaker 5: You called 911 at 615 according to this so that's
if you thought something was wrong around four that's two
hours and 15 minutes before you called 911 and in
between At 4 o'clock, we'll say 4 o'clock, you thought
something was on.
Speaker 2: You talked to Aunt Diana.
Speaker 3: Mm-hmm. her, but I wasn't around with JJ. Okay.
Speaker 2: What did Aunt Diana have to say?
Speaker 3: She screamed.
Speaker 2: Well, she screamed at us.
Speaker 5: She was upset because he was hurting or because he was.
Speaker 3: Yes.
Speaker 2: So Aunt Diana was at 519.
Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2: And you talked, well, I would say that was about
eight seconds, but let me see, maybe you called her again.
Speaker 5: Yeah, so at 521, Lauren's new number, that was only
a two-second job there, Aunt Diana again, there were three
different calls. 521, there was one that lasted about two minutes.
Speaker 2: I don't know, it was Plain City, so.
Speaker 3: I have no idea. Okay. That's probably somebody trying to
buy the house.
Speaker 2: Lauren's new number again at 530.
Speaker 3: That's me trying to get in contact with my sister. Sure.
Speaker 5: And then we talked about Terry Daniels, your brother-in-law. Yeah,
that's her husband.
Speaker 2: 541, talk to him. Who's G. Garrett?
Speaker 3: My brother.
Speaker 2: That's your brother. You talk to him for 12 minutes.
And then Larry.
Speaker 3: That's my father.
Speaker 2: That's your father.
Speaker 5: You talked to him for at least two times, 555
for two minutes, and then one minute a little bit
after that.
Speaker 2: 601 is Ron. Who's Ron?
Speaker 3: Sergeant Childress.
Speaker 2: Sergeant Childress?
Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2: Who is he, a sergeant? Is he a police officer?
Speaker 3: Yes, he is.
Speaker 5: Okay.
Speaker 2: Where does he work?
Speaker 3: Cincinnati Police Department. Okay.
Speaker 2: Did you talk to him?
Speaker 3: I sure did. Okay.
Speaker 2: It's for 35 seconds?
Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2: What did he tell you?
Speaker 3: I'm on my way.
Speaker 2: He said he was on his way?
Speaker 3: Mm-hmm. Okay.
Speaker 2: Did he show up over there? Was he there? I
wasn't there, so I don't know.
Speaker 3: Yeah, he was there. Okay.
Speaker 5: At 6.03, you talked to little David for six minutes.
Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2: Who's little David?
Speaker 3: He's my cousin. Your cousin.
Speaker 2: And at 6.06, you talked to Terry again for five minutes.
Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2: And then, so from 6.06 to 6.11, is that time
period every five minutes? And then at 6.15, you called 911.
Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2: That sound about right?
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Okay. Just give us a few minutes. We'll do a
couple things, and then we'll come back and hopefully, like
I said, we'll get you out of here in just
a little bit, okay? I'm still going to hang on
to your phone just for a little bit, okay?
Speaker 3: Sure. All right, good. Anything? Anything?
Speaker 2: We're going to talk to you real quick, and then
we'll be done.
Speaker 5: So if you want me to go to the bathroom
or anything, you can go to the lobby.
Speaker 2: We'll take you right to that lobby and get there
real quick, and then.
Speaker 5: you can sit out there and we'll get you back
home here in just.
Speaker 6: A little bit when you're done you can just have.
Speaker 3: To sit back out here.
Speaker 2: Okay.
Speaker 5: All right, so we just wanted to talk to the
detective that was at your house that you talked to,
Detective K.O. that was over there, just kind of see
where things are. This is very tough for you. You're
going through a lot. It's tough for us because... We're
asking questions. It doesn't seem like these feel like great
questions to you because you're probably worried that we're asking
you to get a certain direction, but we know that
there's going to be things that are asked of us
down the road. And so our plan from here is
there's some things that we want to do, all right?
And these are procedural things for us, and you're not
going to like hearing them, but we're going to write
a search warrant, to collect some things from your house.
Speaker 2: Okay. And that is just a cover basis from a,
from a legal standpoint.
Speaker 5: I know that if I asked you, you'd probably say, please,
you could, you could take this. And what we really,
what we're looking for is we want to be able
to take the cot. Um, and that was associated with
where JJ was just in case the corner were to say, Hey,
I need to see this.
Speaker 2: Or do whatever. That might be something they'd look at.
Speaker 5: So, um, we also, we want to be able to
take his meds from there so that way they can say,
here's his meds. And I'll be honest with you, we
just talked, they don't know where they are.
Speaker 2: So maybe you know where they are.
Speaker 5: But if they were upstairs, downstairs, they saw meds, I think,
for you and for your mom and maybe even William,
but they did not see his meds. So if they're there,
then we'll be able to do that and find it.
So that's the only thing that.
Speaker 2: We kind of really.
Speaker 5: Want to go back and look forward just to make
sure or at least be able to take. And I
will tell you that's going to take a little bit longer.
So to be able to go back home is one thing,
but you're not going to really be able to go
back in until we kind of.
Speaker 2: Go this route and finish this end. I know you've
been patient.
Speaker 5: It's been a long, long, long day and probably a
long several months for you with everything you have going on.
But I think there were a couple other things that
I just wanted to clear up. So how often do
you have to change JJ's diaper?
Speaker 3: About twice a day.
Speaker 2: Twice a day, okay. And when you change his diaper...
So when I say diaper, I don't mean, like, baby-type diapers.
Speaker 5: I'm assuring it's probably, like, an adult-type diaper, like maybe
Depends or something like that. And you have, like, boxes
of those where new ones and everything, so you change
them with a new one every single time, right?
Speaker 3: Mm-hmm. Gotcha. All right.
Speaker 2: And then those old ones you just throw away.
Speaker 3: You throw them away every day. Gotcha.
Speaker 2: Clean them up, and that's it.
Speaker 3: Yes.
Speaker 2: Okay. I think, too, that... What else was there?
Speaker 3: Anything else?
Speaker 4: Um.
Speaker 3: Do you know where the medications are? They're in the kitchen.
It's cluttered in there. It's in a bag. It's in
a gray bag, probably on the side somewhere.
Speaker 2: A gray bag?
Speaker 3: Across from the refrigerator.
Speaker 4: Across from the fridge, a gray bag, okay.
Speaker 3: Like a grocery bag. Grocery bag? Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2: How often is he supposed to get those meds?
Speaker 3: He gets them morning and night. And he gets the,
he's out of it actually, his emergency seizure medication.
Speaker 2: He's out of it? He's out of the, so is that,
what meds would be in the bag then?
Speaker 3: Seizure medication. Okay. Psychiatric meds. So antidepressant, medication to keep
him calm. And medication for aggression.
Speaker 2: So he gets those.
Speaker 5: Those meds are normal morning and nighttime meds. And then
he has emergency seizure medication.
Speaker 3: And ADHD medication. Okay.
Speaker 4: How long has he been out of the seizure meds?
Speaker 3: Just the emergency seizure medication. Oh, okay. Since last night.
Speaker 2: Okay, gotcha, gotcha, gotcha.
Speaker 4: But all the other prescriptions he's filled up and everything?
Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2: So you used those last night when the emergency meds, okay.
Speaker 5: You still have the prescription somewhere there?
Speaker 2: Did you throw it away?
Speaker 5: Could it be in the garbage or somewhere in the house?
Speaker 3: It might still be in that bag. I'm not sure.
I don't know. I gave it to him knowing that
he had an appointment on Thursday. Okay. A pending appointment. Okay. His.
Speaker 4: His diapers and clothes and belongings, where is that in
the house?
Speaker 3: He has so many clothes.
Speaker 2: Okay.
Speaker 3: The diapers are in the living room, but he has
tons and tons and tons and tons and tons and
tons of clothes.
Speaker 2: Okay.
Speaker 3: We just got back, so there's a bag in the
dining room. There's some new clothes that I just got
him for Christmas that are in the hallway because I
haven't sorted everything. I was kind of sorting to see
what I was taking. Mm-hmm. moved gotcha.
Speaker 2: Do you know all his doctor's names Dr.
Speaker 3: Shapiro but I don't know his new doctor offhand it's
a lady I.
Speaker 2: Don't so Dr. Shapiro was his old doctor.
Speaker 3: Old neurologist and Dr. Raina Gilmore at Central Clinic.
Speaker 2: And Dr.
Speaker 3: Reyna Gilmore. Reyna? Reyna, R-E-Y-N-A, Gilmore.
Speaker 2: And the neurologist is where?
Speaker 3: At Cincinnati Children's Liberty Township.
Speaker 2: Liberty Township.
Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
Speaker 4: And Gilmore was on downtown Maine?
Speaker 3: Burnett Social Clinic. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2: Any other doctors that he sees? No. Just those two?
Speaker 3: For now.
Speaker 2: His pediatrician, who was his?
Speaker 3: She quit. Okay. He does not have one currently. Okay.
So we would just get his shot.
Speaker 2: Who was that pediatrician before he quit?
Speaker 3: Oh, my God, I can't think of her name. Oh,
I don't know.
Speaker 2: Could you have the practice?
Speaker 3: Mercy, pediatrician. Okay. She's Nigerian.
Speaker 2: And when was the last time that you think that
he went there to see her?
Speaker 3: That was during COVID, before COVID, like two years ago.
Speaker 2: So he hasn't had a pediatrician since like 2021, 2022?
Like 2021 or so.
Speaker 7: So we just get his vaccines at clinics.
Speaker 3: Okay.
Speaker 2: What clinics do you go to?
Speaker 3: CVS, Walmart.
Speaker 2: Okay, so.
Speaker 3: He's up to date with his COVID. He's up to
date with his vaccinations.
Speaker 2: Do you, where do you get his prescriptions filled? Do
you usually go to CBS?
Speaker 3: Walgreens on John Gray Road, CBS, and Fairfield on Nellis.
Speaker 5: And the last time that he would have seen Dr.
Shapiro or Dr. Gilmore in person was probably about six
months ago?
Speaker 3: A little bit like that. Okay.
Speaker 2: So before your mom had passed? Mm-hmm. Okay. But once
a month, they would see him via?
Speaker 3: Not Dr. Shapiro. Okay. Dr. Shapiro sees him yearly. Okay.
Just about. In office.
Speaker 2: Okay.
Speaker 3: He's very hard to get into. Sure. Dr. Gilmore calls
monthly to do a follow-up and a medicine update. Okay.
But she has seen him in person a month ago. Okay.
Speaker 5: Are there any, I know we talked about broken bones
and stuff like that.
Speaker 2: He had some leg braces that he used when he
was younger.
Speaker 5: Does he have any, like, scars that if they ask
about scars that you can think of, does he have any, like,
major scars anywhere?
Speaker 3: He had a laceration when he came to me that
was on his hand. And he had....
Speaker 2: When he came to you, when you say, like, when
he was 11 months?
Speaker 3: Mm-hmm. Okay. He had a laceration on his head because
he had ringworm in his bloodstream. and a golf ball
size knot from a ringworm. And they had to kind
of drain it at Children's.
Speaker 2: This is all when he was younger, like 11 months?
Speaker 3: Mm-hmm. Okay.
Speaker 2: And those have since, they would have left scars?
Speaker 3: Mm-hmm. Okay.
Speaker 2: And the ringworm scars would have been on his head?
Is that what it said?
Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
Speaker 5: And the scar, a laceration left a scar on his,
which hand was it?
Speaker 3: That was on his right hand. And the scar was
in the front. Gotcha.
Speaker 2: Any scars up and down his arms, elbows, shoulder?
Speaker 3: He didn't start walking until he was three, so he crawled. Okay.
And so it left him calloused on his elbows.
Speaker 2: Gotcha. From crawling, so he would crawl more on his
elbows than he would on his hands?
Speaker 3: Mm-hmm. Okay.
Speaker 2: Scars or anything on his legs, knees, thighs?
Speaker 3: Knees were scarred because that was his, that's how he
got around.
Speaker 2: He didn't walk.
Speaker 5: So maybe the same thing, some callus and some scars
on his knees.
Speaker 3: And so because he didn't walk, he had leg braces.
He was seen by occupational therapy at Children's Hospital. And
he had leg braces until he was about four. And
wore special shoes.
Speaker 2: Did he have any operations?
Speaker 3: No, nobody was seen by Help Me Grow. Okay.
Speaker 5: So no operations for anything like appendix, nothing like that, tonsillectomy, nothing?
Speaker 3: No, just been hospitalized for seizures at Children's Hospital Liberty Township. Gotcha.
And at that time, that was two years ago, he
had hit his head on the counter at home.
Speaker 2: Okay.
Speaker 3: From having a grand mal seizure. And chipped his tooth.
He lost his tooth from that. And he grinds his teeth.
And I was told, don't worry about the chipped tooth.
Speaker 5: Right.
Speaker 3: Because he grinds his teeth, and they tried to think
about putting, but he would grind the.
Speaker 2: Mouth guard.
Speaker 3: Thank you.
Speaker 2: So the doctors that he's seen, especially, so Dr. Gilmore,
she's a psychiatrist or a psychologist?
Speaker 3: She's a psychiatrist.
Speaker 2: Psychiatrist, okay.
Speaker 5: And is she concerned about the self-injury to the point
where she felt that it was There were things that
needed to be done, or was his self-injury just more
of a behavioral thing when he got upset that he
wasn't causing that much injury?
Speaker 3: No, she has witnessed him. He has been forceful to
my mother and bitten and head-butted my mother. Okay. So
there was some concerns, and so she's had to adjust
his medication. So he's on some pretty powerful medications. Right.
They've helped, but that's why she needs to make sure
that she calls in and adjusts his medications to make
sure that he doesn't harm himself or others. He also
went to Applied Behavioral Services for a long time. He's
not with them currently. I was going to get him back,
but because of my mother being sick and my health
not being that great, I could not take a chance
on him bringing anything back to us. Okay.
Speaker 2: So where's that, Applied Behavioral?
Speaker 3: Westchester. Okay.
Speaker 5: Is that the Children's Hospital Westchester one, or is that different?
Speaker 3: No, this is a school. Okay.
Speaker 2: What's called Applied Behavioral?
Speaker 3: ABS Westchester.
Speaker 2: ABS Westchester, okay.
Speaker 3: He had a lot of self-injurious behaviors, and they were
working with him for several years with that. He was
getting the therapy that he needed. He would get one-on-one,
it's called... applied behavioral services. But unfortunately, we had to
get homeschooled and curtailed that for fear that he would
bring something back. But we were going to get that back.
But anyway, so no, the self-injurious behavior was very concerning.
Speaker 5: Did he ever harm himself to the point where Again,
he didn't break anything, so nothing... Did he ever knock
himself out from hurting himself?
Speaker 2: Did he ever.
Speaker 3: He would hit himself in the head or hit himself.
Sometimes it's called self-stemming with autistic kids. So sometimes it
would be to self-injurious behavior if they're frustrated or trying
to get something out. And sometimes if they felt like
they needed something to spark what was delayed, they may
hit themselves in the head or ram themselves... into a
wall to get that spark going.
Speaker 2: Gotcha.
Speaker 5: But never to the point where it would cause him
to bleed, cause him to knock himself out.
Speaker 3: Not knock himself out, but to get himself to, he
would bleed. Okay. He would scratch. He would bite. Gotcha. Yeah. Okay.
Speaker 5: Tell me a little bit about the adoption process for
for everything. When you, you fostered him first, right? Did
you foster him through Hamilton County?
Speaker 2: Okay.
Speaker 5: And then when it was time to adopt, um, Did
you do the same through Hamilton County?
Speaker 2: Was there an adoption agency that you used?
Speaker 3: No.
Speaker 2: Okay.
Speaker 5: Did you just do, I don't know, you could probably
tell me better than what I might know, if you
had like an adoption attorney or somebody in family law
that helped out?
Speaker 3: No. Okay.
Speaker 2: How did you end up going about that?
Speaker 3: No one wanted him. Right. Okay. He'd been with me.
He had to pay. It wasn't free. Sure. And he
wasn't deemed autistic, but I was told he would be
a lump on a log. Right. Because he wasn't walking,
he wasn't talking, that there was nothing that anyone could
do with him. And I thought that was, that wasn't true.
And so... I adopted him, and I fought for him
to walk and do the best that he could and
go against the odds, and I paid. And I was like,
he needs a home, a permanent home.
Speaker 2: And did you go through a legal process, I assume,
through the courts?
Speaker 3: Yes.
Speaker 2: Got documentation on that kind of stuff?
Speaker 3: Absolutely.
Speaker 2: That was all through Hamilton County, right?
Speaker 3: Absolutely.
Speaker 2: And you said that you adopted him when he was five.
Speaker 5: Mm-hmm.
Speaker 3: Okay, gotcha.
Speaker 5: Did you do anything through, was it all through Hamilton Care?
Was it jobs and family services that you dealt with
the entire time?
Speaker 2: Okay, gotcha. Do you remember who you might have dealt
with with JFS?
Speaker 3: I don't.
Speaker 2: Okay, that's a long time ago.
Speaker 5: And with DDS, there's no one specific that you talk
to that you can say, hey, they're a manager.
Speaker 2: Or anything like that?
Speaker 3: Okay, gotcha.
Speaker 2: Do you think he still has, do.
Speaker 5: You think if you called, like you said, if you called,
there was somebody that would still say yes, he's technically
somebody that.
Speaker 2: We would help out with, or would they not know?
Speaker 3: With autism, there's very little funding, and they took him
off the waiver. Okay. So once they did that and
they gave up so much for autism.
Speaker 2: Sure, understandable.
Speaker 5: So here's one of the things that I'm going to
tell you something that you don't want to hear right now.
I need to keep your phone. I know that's not
something that you want to hear. And the reason I
need to keep your phone is because we're going to
ask if we can download the calls, the call log from.
Speaker 2: There from the events that happened.
Speaker 3: All right?
Speaker 2: And, again, I'm only saying that.
Speaker 5: For purposes of, like I told you when we first
started this, I don't know what happened. 11 years, 16 years,
I don't know anything that's happened over that time.
Speaker 2: I just know that unfortunately today, you know, JJ passed.
What the reasons for that, I don't know until a
doctor can tell us one way or the other. And
with that being said, the only thing I can tell
you is.
Speaker 5: That we try to gear this towards not pointing a
finger at you, not pointing a finger at William, but
in the event that there is something that somebody says, hey,
I need certain things or I wish that we would
have had certain things. I don't want to look back
and say we didn't maintain some of these records.
Speaker 2: And I know that's frustrating for you. You probably need
your phone.
Speaker 3: I do.
Speaker 5: And believe me, I completely understand.
Speaker 2: And I wish I could tell you that I could
do this tonight, but I can't do that tonight.
Speaker 3: I have an infusion coming. I need my medication. I
need some things that are on my phone to live. Okay.
Speaker 2: Everybody needs their phone to live.
Speaker 3: No, no, no.
Speaker 5: From the standpoint of everybody's lives are on those phones.
Speaker 3: No, I know that, but I need some things to
do on my phone to order my medications. I take
medications to live, like literally.
Speaker 5: Is that something that can be done? If I can
get that done by tomorrow, is tomorrow an okay time frame?
Speaker 3: Yes.
Speaker 5: Okay. And I'm going to do my best to work
that out so that we get it done sooner than later.
Speaker 2: And I don't know.
Speaker 5: Do you have anywhere that you need to be tomorrow
that's going to prevent me from if once we get
this done, then.
Speaker 3: I can ask if I can wait, but this is serious. Right.
I'm very sick.
Speaker 2: Sure, and I understand.
Speaker 5: I guess I don't want to take that away from you,
but if, let's just say, I'm not going to say
24 hours, but if I can get this back to
you tomorrow.
Speaker 2: you.
Speaker 5: Know, by early afternoon, would that be reasonable to be
able to make sure and maintain what you need to
do it for?
Speaker 3: Okay.
Speaker 2: Does William have a phone?
Speaker 3: He does. Okay. But he doesn't have my.
Speaker 2: Is there anything.
Speaker 3: I have, like, all my chart, my breeze, my.
Speaker 2: Is there anything specific in here, something that you need?
I give you a piece of paper.
Speaker 5: You need to write something down, or I can write
something down for you, whether it's phone numbers or anything
like that.
Speaker 3: A few phone numbers, but that doesn't have my charts
in it. Sure.
Speaker 5: And like I said, if that's something that can wait
until the afternoon tomorrow at the latest, if that's okay,
then you'll be all right.
Speaker 2: You can work through that. Again, that's the main thing
that I'm trying to do.
Speaker 5: And, again, this is all to cover all the bases
that need to be covered when it comes to this.
Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2: Like I said, we're writing a search warrant for.
Speaker 5: Your house to be able to take certain things, and
I really truly feel like if we asked you, you'd say, yes, please,
go ahead here. I want you to have these things
so that you give us consent or you give us
permission to take those things.
Speaker 2: That's what I'm saying.
Speaker 5: I'm also going to ask for the consent part of
this as well to kind of go that route to
see to make sure that we can.
Speaker 2: Download what we need to download and go from there.
I'm not asking to get your medical stuff. I'm not
asking for anything. I don't want to see... anything other
than say, hey, we have a call log. You know,
if there was any text messages that.
Speaker 5: You might have had with any of your family prior
to any of this to say, what do I do?
Speaker 2: Things like that.
Speaker 5: Just to kind of show that we've, like I said,
we've done an investigation into this to make sure that
we're doing what's right for you.
Speaker 2: We're also doing what's right for JJ.
Speaker 3: Okay.
Speaker 5: And I know that probably doesn't make a lot of
sense to you because maybe you think that we're We're
looking at you as if you did something, but we're
also trying to make sure that we protect him because
he's not here to tell.
Speaker 2: Us what happened to him.
Speaker 3: I understand that. Good.
Speaker 2: Is there a passcode for this?
Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2: And the only reason I'm going to ask for it so.
Speaker 5: That way, because in order to do that, it's going
to probably ask the passcode multiple times. I know you've
had a lot of... people calling, texting, and wanting to know,
you know, kind of what's going on, I will give
you the best information I can give you right now.
The coroner's office, a pathologist will conduct an autopsy tomorrow.
From that point, there are a lot of things that happen.
There's a lot of tests. There's a lot of other
things that have to go on. The answers that you
might want or that we might want or anybody would
want to know.
Speaker 2: What happened are not going to happen tomorrow.
Speaker 3: So.
Speaker 5: Once there's some things that happen, we will probably reach
back out to you and say, hey, we need to
talk again, you know, kind of give you an indication
of what's going on, especially if the coroner's office finds
that it could have been anything.
Speaker 2: It could have been seizure-related. It could have been, you know,
a medical event that, you know, whatever the case might be.
Speaker 5: Again, if we all knew, we'd be sitting here telling us,
you know, it would be a different story if we
could say he fell and hurt himself.
Speaker 2: But we can't say what happened to him at this point.
Speaker 3: How are you going to be able to reach out
to me if you have my phone?
Speaker 2: We have William's number. I was going to say we
have William's number. He's bad at answering his phone. Well,
here's my thing.
Speaker 5: I just asked if you had anywhere you had to be,
and I didn't think you were going to be anywhere tomorrow.
Speaker 2: So if you're going to be at home, I can
always just bring right to you or have somebody. So
unless you're going to be somewhere.
Speaker 3: Now I'm not.
Speaker 2: Okay, well, I'm with you, but I'll give you my.
Speaker 5: Card so you can always call up here and say, hey,
if something changes, then you can say I'm going to
be with friends or I'm going to be somewhere else.
Speaker 3: And you're going to allow me to write some numbers down?
Speaker 2: Yes, if you'd like to do that, by all means, absolutely.
Speaker 3: All right.
Speaker 2: If you could, do me a favor.
Speaker 5: When you're putting that, just keep it down there for
me so that way it doesn't look like you're deleting
or doing anything like that.
Speaker 2: I know that sounds weird.
Speaker 3: It does.
Speaker 2: If you're writing numbers down, great. But if you.
Speaker 5: I will tell you this, just so you know, and
most people don't understand this. Even when you delete stuff
specifically on the phone, we're still able.
Speaker 2: To find it.
Speaker 3: I'm not going to do that. I'm going to put
my attorney and my family... I don't have time to
play games like that.
Speaker 2: You know what my job is?
Speaker 5: I deal with people that aren't as cooperative and aren't
as nice as you. And the minute that I try
to do something that's different, I don't want to come
back and say, hey, well, somebody did something that they
shouldn't have or that I forgot to do something I
should have.
Speaker 3: I understand. I know you're only trying to do your job.
I'm tired.
Speaker 2: Believe me, I know that you are.
Speaker 5: I think everybody's had a long day today, and you
have a lot of things still in front of you.
Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2: And you've had a lot of things that's happened in
the last few months that are a very big deal
for you.
Speaker 5: I will tell you that the detective that was there
did see your cat, and it scared him because he
did not know there was a cat there, so he
jumped out at him. I don't know if it was
the gray one that was on the front of there,
but he said he didn't stick around to see it.
Speaker 3: That happens.
Speaker 2: I have a cat.
Speaker 3: Oh, my goodness.
Speaker 2: He wouldn't jump out at anybody. He's a scaredy cat.
Speaker 3: Oh, my goodness.
Speaker 2: He'll hide. He'll shed his hair on you more than
he'll ever do anything crazy to you. He's a big
furry cat.
Speaker 3: Oh, my goodness.
Speaker 2: He's a baby. Likes to cuddle with me a lot.
Really does.
Speaker 3: They're blessings, aren't they?
Speaker 2: I inherited it. I didn't want it.
Speaker 3: Oh.
Speaker 2: My daughter left it for me.
Speaker 3: Oh, my goodness.
Speaker 2: It was nice of her, wasn't it? She couldn't take
it to Hawaii with her. Oh. She couldn't take me
to Hawaii with her either, so.
Speaker 3: Oh, my goodness.
Speaker 2: I think it was a loss all the way around.
Speaker 3: When you look through my phone, you're going to see
that it's very boring.
Speaker 6: Believe me. I'm going to go where the texting is.
Speaker 3: I'm not deleting anything. All right. Those are the main people.
Speaker 2: You can, if you need to read those text messages,
by all means.
Speaker 3: I do.
Speaker 2: By all means, please.
Speaker 3: Am I allowed to respond or just read?
Speaker 2: No, you can. If you need to respond.
I'm sure people are probably checking on you, want to
know everything.
Speaker 5: And if the majority of them are ones that you
wrote down, I'm sure you'll be able to call and
give them a rundown of everything.
Speaker 3: I will not answer that because I know I can't.
Speaker 2: You're probably calling because you're texting them back. That's probably
what I'm saying. So real quick, so.
Speaker 5: I'm going to read this consent form to you.
Speaker 2: This is what we talked about doing this.
Speaker 5: So it just says understand that we don't have a
search warrant and cannot conduct this search without such a
warrant unless you're willing to get permission to allow such
a search to be conducted.
Speaker 3: My brother-in-law is saying wait until I have an attorney. Okay.
Speaker 2: That's fine. Well, then here's what will happen.
Speaker 5: And the only reason that I said this about doing
the consent where the phone was is that I won't
be able to get that search warrant signed until tomorrow.
Speaker 2: We cannot get the search warrant signed until tomorrow. And
then that time frame of getting your phone back to
you in the afternoon will be delayed as a result
of that.
Speaker 5: I'm not trying to be difficult, and I really am not.
And trust me, I understand why you're doing what you're doing.
It makes sense to me. But again, at the same time,
like I told you before, we have to do these
things in order to make sure that we're protecting the
integrity of everything.
Speaker 2: That's involved in this.
Speaker 5: I understand.
Speaker 2: And I get it.
Speaker 5: You have to protect yourself, and I have no problems
with any of that. And if you want to wait,
then that's fine. We'll write the search warrant for it,
but that won't happen until tomorrow. And like I said,
getting that to tomorrow afternoon is going to be difficult.
Speaker 2: So, but I have no problem.
Speaker 5: With waiting until that happens. So, um, as long as
you understand that's why we're, we're doing what we're doing.
If those numbers are going to help you suffice to do.
Speaker 3: What we got to do.
Speaker 2: I want to work with you.
Speaker 5: I appreciate, I appreciate that, that you want to work
with us because I'm sure at some point in time there,
there might be something that comes up that I need
to talk to you about. Again, that could be something
very simple. That could be something very reasonable. And for,
for us to be able to still communicate, you know, is,
is still a big deal.
Speaker 2: So hopefully, you know, Like.
Speaker 5: I said, maybe tomorrow we might get some type of answer,
but I don't.
Speaker 2: Think that there will be the answers that anybody wants
to be able to know with 100% certainty until later
down the road.
Speaker 3: Okay.
Speaker 5: I don't know if he had anything on him. Is
there anything? Does he have any necklaces or anything like that?
He didn't have any jewelry or anything that he wore
or anything, did he?
Speaker 3: Not. I didn't keep any jewelry after he had a seizure.
Speaker 2: Okay.
Speaker 5: And I didn't see if he had pants with pockets
that he could have had anything in, so I don't know.
Speaker 2: If he has any personal belongings.
Speaker 5: They'll hang on to it, and then they'll eventually release
it and kind of go from there.
Speaker 3: Okay.
Speaker 2: Any questions for us?
Speaker 3: No.
Speaker 5: Okay.
Speaker 3: Mm-hmm. I do need to see if my friend is
coming to get us.
Speaker 2: So I believe there's somebody out there.
Speaker 3: Okay.
Speaker 2: At least there was at that time.
Speaker 3: Okay.
Speaker 2: But just so you know, we're still in the process.
Speaker 5: Of getting the warrant for the house to be able
to get the things that we've discussed.
Speaker 2: And I know that you'll probably be there.
Speaker 3: I will.
Speaker 2: And for us to be able to do that.
Speaker 5: But we can't let you go back into the house
until we have the warrant because we're still holding.
Speaker 2: On to it and we're not letting anybody in or
out until then.
Speaker 3: I need my medication.
Speaker 2: Which.
Speaker 5: That will happen tonight, just it's going to be a
little bit longer. What time do you usually take your meds?
Do you need to take it soon?
Speaker 3: Absolutely. Okay, gotcha.
Speaker 2: And I'm sure that we can work with you on that.
I don't think that's going to be a problem.
Speaker 5: I wouldn't leave that to an issue, or I wouldn't
believe that to be an issue for you.
Speaker 3: Thank you.
Speaker 2: If you want, we'll go out, and I think William's
out there.
Speaker 5: We'll go hang out with him and then see if
we have somebody here with you.
Speaker 2: All right, my purse is still in the police car.
I believe we'll see if the officer... Do you have
her purse in your car?
Speaker 3: Okay.
Speaker 1: Investigators said an autopsy would be conducted, but the cause
of JJ's death and any later legal outcome are not
established here. You've been listening to True Crime from Podcast Studios.
Thanks for being here, and we'll see you in the
next one.