Ryan Goldbacher on Touring with Tom Keifer, Mixing FOH (and Monitors), and AI

Gig Gab, episode 541 for Monday, July 6th, National Fried Chicken Day, 2026.

Greetings, folks, and welcome to GigGab, the show by, for, and about working

musicians here in Durham, New Hampshire.

I'm Dave Hamilton. Our sponsor for this episode is Oneskin.co slash GigGab,

where you can get 15% off Oneskin with code GigGab. We'll talk more about that in a little bit.

But my guest co-host today is someone who has worked, let's see,

as a tour manager, production manager, front of house engineer, sometimes all three,

for people like Sebastian Bach, the HU, Blackstar Riders, Thin Lizzy, Mr.

Big, Samantha Fish, Gavin DeGraw, Ben all around and is now out on the road

with Tom Kiefer, if I have that right.

Ryan Goldbacher, thank you for taking the time to join us on Gig Gab today.

Thank you for having me yeah i'm a big fan of the.

Podcast thanks man thanks it's uh yeah it's always a pleasure to have uh someone

on who knows who knows how it goes i should say so yeah it's good um and you

are out on the road with tom keifer right now right

yes yep how what's that like what what size it tom is from cinderella if i if

my memory serves me is that that correct Yeah, he's

A founding member.

And how's that tour going? I think you're in the middle of that tour-ish right now Yeah,

We're just past the middle mark A couple days ago,

I mean, it's wood,

uh june 22nd now so we got a little more than a month left but uh i mean it's

going great i this is the second tour that i've done with him and it's it's

some of the great greatest people i've worked with i mean the band's amazing

the crew's amazing it's it's tom is great to work with,

and you know that's not me just buttering him up he's a normal dude um,

just uh you know it's fun it's uh it's one of those situations where it's like

there's not a bad person on the bus not somebody you don't want to be around

it's just just a good good all-around crew which is a big deal.

Well so let's talk about that as a big deal i know this is a little departure

from from kind of the nerdy stuff which we'll get to don't of course uh but like i i am always

it doesn't surprise me of course i've spent uh not a not nearly as much time

on the road as you but enough to know the importance of being a good person to hang with on the bus.

Like that, because, you know, the show is a few hours a day if in fact there's

even a show that day, right? And otherwise you're just hanging out with these people.

That, how do you...

How do you suss that out quickly when you're considering whether to take a gig

or not or that kind of a thing?

You know, the.

The best it's all word of mouth, you know, people are going to know you,

they're going to recommend you. And it's one, because you're competent,

which is honestly the most important thing. And two, because you're not miserable to be around.

And these everybody in this camp has been doing this long enough to know who those people are,

like I got recommended by Tony Higbee and Jared Pope who have been playing with

Tom for years because I had done other tours with them and,

I mean that's that's how the entire crew and band came together it just was

you know this it wasn't I mean there were auditions but it was also So,

you know, we want to recommend people for this gig and make sure they're the right fit.

Because if it's going to be miserable, there's no point in doing it. It's not fun.

So, you know, that's how that usually goes down. But it's all about word of

mouth. You know, there's job boards and stuff like that, and they're great,

and I have gotten work like that.

But anymore, it's just people knowing that you're a good person and you're capable of doing the job.

So yeah no that that makes sense it it's

um i mean i suppose this is true in any business right but in in especially in

relevant in a business where you're quite literally living together or living

in very close quarters. You know, you're spending more than the typical 40 hours

a week together that, that you would do if you were a desk job, right?

You know?

Yeah. Yeah.

Uh, interesting. I saw I didn't, okay. So there's, there's job boards and all

of that. So if someone's kind of rising to that level, there are places where

you can sort of throw your hat in the ring. That's interesting.

And, and, and you get work that way, huh?

Oh yeah. I've gotten work way i still to this day i get work occasionally that

way it's just uh you know but a lot of times when you get work that way it's because,

um somebody recognizes your name you know and they're like oh i wasn't thinking

about them and it still comes back to knowing that you were a good hang or

they recognize somebody you've worked with they recognize somebody on your references

they can call them and say hey that's like it's a good person to be out with

yeah so it's still it still all comes back to being,

uh bearable to be around yeah and being.

Competent so sure sure but i i feel like the competency

of any position musician on stage you know somebody running front of house somebody

whatever the job is i feel like competency is table stakes right right like that

i mean you hope right that yeah but the hang is the thing that that gets you

the next gig i would assume them.

So, yeah, yeah, I agree. I mean, you know, you never want to be the guy that

recommend somebody that's not able to do the job because then they're not going

to call it. They're not going to trust you again.

Um, but at the same time, it is important because I mean, people,

when you look at the tour bus, they're, they look super cool.

The first time you've been on them and they are super cool. I mean,

they're amazing, but you got to remember that thing is smaller than your bedroom

and there's 12 people in it.

So it's not a, it's not the, when you're out there for three months at a time it's uh,

you know you got to be around people that you like yeah and that's that's the

only way anybody's going to survive and this and you know if people are miserable

the shows suffer that's not good for anybody so.

Right right oh yeah for sure right the work actually is the thing that suffers

in the end right yeah yeah yeah that makes sense um

what are some of the things like when you're going to go out on a tour for three months like this how

what are some of the things that you either bring with you to sort of keep

wherever you are feeling like home or some of the things that you do to sort

of maintain that sanity of okay

this is you know I'm Ryan every day even though I'm in a different place

You know I mean on a show day you're just so busy it's sure you don't have to,

think about that that much um but for me it's just you know you do got to have

that personal space i think um even you i mean,

you know every band's gonna have days off on the road and i think it you know

as much as it's a budgetary constraint i i think it's very important to,

make sure your band and your crew get their personal space um because even if

you like people around sometimes you just got to get away and like like,

most of the well in the past 10 years or so every band that i've worked with

gets that everybody gets thrown hotel rooms but you know i'll just do it's just

simple things for me like i'll i'll go,

for a walk and explore some place i haven't been before even if it's not really

like an interesting place it's just like i'm gonna see something new that i've never,

seen before and it's you know it keeps your brain from turning into mush i guess

is the best way to put it but you kind of um you know i don't have like a.

You know there's not like a i don't have i travel pretty light but i don't have

like a ton of things that i bring out with me but the things i do out on the road,

you know like one of the things i love to do is like if we're out in some part

of the country that's got like a really nice scenic view and we have a day off

i'll go i'll rent a car and i'll just go drive out the mountains or something

like that just to unwind you know and see something cool i mean one time,

this is one of the coolest adventures i ever had i uh,

we had like a week off between gigs and we were out in California and I was,

you know, they were going to fly us all home.

And I just told them, Hey, fly me to Spokane.

The only state I haven't been to was Alaska. And I want to go to Alaska.

And I found the closest place you could drive to in Alaska. And I just drove from Spokane to Alaska.

And it was, you know, one of the best, one of the best things I could have done

to reset, you know, even going home wouldn't have done that.

So I just, I encourage people to find something that just, you know, lets them,

clean their brain out on a day's off or any opportunity do they have to do that

just to you know enjoy things you wouldn't get to enjoy uh otherwise so that's that's what i.

Do what a great reset man like kudos to you for even conceiving of this idea right like i

i and then executing on it right like that's well as you're saying it i'm like

i kind of want to do that i want to go to fly to spokane and drive to alaska like

It was it was I didn't have a plan. I just found the closest city I could drive to.

And it was this little tiny town. The only way to get there is by airplane boat or through Canada.

600 people. And, I mean, it was tiny. It was Skagway, Alaska.

And, I mean, it was a little cruise ship town. And, you know,

it's just like the adventure going up there was the coolest part. The town was amazing.

But, yeah, you know, do something that just keeps you –,

uh you know enjoying it i mean you know and here you are.

You know years later and you've got a story to tell right like

So yeah exactly and like yeah alaska you know,

it's i mean it's possible i may never do a show there i've never done a show

there before you know alaska or like places like hawaii and stuff like that

you're a little bit more of a destination tourist attraction for that kind of

thing so it's a little more likely but you know,

it's like all right well i got some time off it's i'm just gonna head up there

and you know it was great my cell phone didn't work in till i got into that

little town it was awesome that.

Sounds scary yeah it was fun but in a good

Way it was for like the first yeah like it was for the first hour but i had

some i had some good uh podcasts and and audiobooks downloaded so it was you

know once i got it out of my head it was like it was pretty great.

That's pretty cool yeah yeah yeah yeah okay i like that that's really smart

really smart um all right so on this tour i kind of mentioned in the intro that

you've done a lot of different uh role

you've served a lot of different roles in in sort of the production side of things

what what roles are you serving on this particular tour

I am only doing front of house with tom wow okay so we i mean he's had uh craig

bradford's been his uh tour manager for years and he pretty much serves as his

production manager as well.

That's my only job on this gig. It's front of house. It's,

It's great. I mean, it's a good crew. Everybody does their job really well,

but it's nice to only be doing that. I do love doing the other gigs,

too, but, you know, let's just change it up a little bit. I have a little bit less to worry about.

Well, yeah, I mean, being able to focus only on that and knowing that the other

things are handled, I would imagine, lets you do that one job better.

I mean, it's how our brains work, right?

Yeah well it's um like the other bands that i do tour manage and production

manage on uh one thing i always insist on is i got to have a monitor engineer,

because i can't be on deck setting up uh worrying about that side of things,

uh and tour managing and do any of it well it just it will not work um so you

have to you can't spread yourself too thin and i made this mistake early in

my career just trying to put too much on my plate and that's one of the things I learned,

uh pretty early on is like you just put what you know if you if it won't fit

on your plate get it off and nobody's ever going to feel,

like you're skirting your job if you tell them you're you can't handle all this

stuff especially you know they know that you're working sure you know wearing all those hats but um,

yeah like it's it's very important that you have,

help you need to to get the job done you can't do it all yourself so.

That's it's really interesting to me and i i mean i

i think i understand the reasoning for it but it's really interesting to me

that the first job that you want to delegate is

the monitor engineer right like like that it's well and and i i mean i'm i'm guessing that

the tour managing the production managing front of house engineer it's certainly

those are all roles that require your attention throughout the course of a day

but monitor engineer and front of house engineer require your attention at the same time

is that kind of the the reasoning for wanting to split that one off first

Sort of um the also the reasoning is i can't if i'm doing the the tour managing

side of things i can't be on deck setting up uh,

that eats up three four hours of your day every day and i need to be worried about uh,

you know taking care of the day-to-day stuff sure that eats up your time so

when i'm when i'm tour managing and doing front house and or into production

managing doing for the house i can do that side of things and then when it's

time for sound check i go do sound check

and if i have a good monitor engineer i think they worry about the deck they

worry about making sure everything's done the way it needs to be done.

I don't have to even think about that.

So they're kind of serving that role of the A2 in that sense,

making sure all the gear is set up right, if that...

Yeah, I mean, that's the, yeah, it's, yeah, sort of. I mean,

calling him an A2, I don't know if it would be insulting or not.

No, I don't want to, yeah, I don't mean it for it to be insulting.

I'm just like, they are the ones setting things up so that you can roll in when

the time comes and do your job at front of house.

Exactly. And I can be worried about making sure, you know, people get fed and,

you know, the artist gets to the hotel and whatever needs to happen happens.

Because if you're doing all that other stuff, you can't do – either production

is going to suffer because all of a sudden the artist is going to need something

or management is going to call and say, the artist needs to get on this interview. Where are they?

Or whatever it is. Something's going to suffer, and it's just – at the end of

the day, the show suffers.

So if you spread yourself too thin, it's not good for anybody.

That makes sense.

So I always encourage people to test your limits.

Don't be afraid to figure out where they are, but also you need to set that boundary.

Because I was always worried that management thought I was going to be complaining

or being lazy or whatever early in my career when I said I couldn't do this.

And the truth is they know that they don't see what's going on on the ground floor.

So when you say, I can't do this and do it well, they totally do get it,

or at least good managers do.

Sure, sure. Some don't. Yeah, I'm sure there's somebody out there.

That's totally true.

Some don't.

But any professional manager with real experience understands that they don't

understand, if that makes sense.

Yep.

They can know, okay, I may not understand exactly what's happened here,

but I know Brian is telling me the show's going to suffer and I can trust him

if he says I can't do the job as well as you need me to do it without this extra

help, whatever that means.

So it's come down to that a couple times, especially early in my career when bands were kind of…,

getting better and better, and demands were getting more and more on me,

I had to lay down the law and say, no, I need you to send me help.

Especially young bands, they'll do a lot of media and press and stuff like that.

And I was in the situation where I was trying to, in effect, be in two places at once.

They would want the band to go do some kind of radio broadcast,

and then at the same time, somebody would be setting up the show and you can't do it well.

If you don't say anything, you can't expect anybody to know that it's a problem.

It's important to... Good advice.

Articulate your needs.

It's not even a boundary thing. It's just like,

your managers and all the people with their feet on the ground and,

you know, are a thousand miles away, they don't really know what's going on

and they know they don't know what's going on. So you have to tell them.

Well, I mean, it sounds like, I mean, that's just a good trust-based working relationship.

Exactly. Right. And it's good leadership. You know, they can,

you know, and don't ever wait till it's too late because by the time it's too

late, it's too late. It's too late. Yeah. But, yeah.

The, yeah. So, I mean, yeah, I don't know how we got off on that tangent. I don't know.

I don't either, but it's, No, it's a good one because there's always going to

be those things. We say on the show, you know, our catchphrase is always be performing.

What we're saying here is always

be communicating, right? Always make sure everybody knows what's going on.

And it's okay to not be able to do everything that you think you need to be

doing, right? So communicate about it. Yeah. Yeah. Good stuff. Yep.

Very cool um what uh so let's let's

let's get a little nerdy here so for front of house on this tour how much of

your own gear are you like is the tour bringing what size theaters are you doing

and and are you bringing your own gear are you renting gear in every

you know renting a front of house so we room

We well so it's it's all theaters and okay there's some out some theaters big

clubs uh we're doing some festivals and outdoor things but it's all you know

we're only the only thing i'm bringing is a front house desk.

That's it okay

Okay the we don't even have a monitor engineer on the store so it's a house

monitor engineers house monitor desk um the band is all on wedges so uh i just

it's kind of backwards of how a band would do it,

otherwise where you know how a lot of bands would bring their own little monitor

console and i'll be on years yeah we kind of do it the other way around i bring

the front house console we use whatever they have at house and everybody uh

we just dial up uh monitors every night,

and um yeah so i have an i have an allen and heath advantage in front of house

um and uh i use house racks and stacks,

so um you know we're carrying on mic package and you know a lot of the on deck

stuff but yeah it's it's a relatively small package for audio no lighting no.

Okay so you're using whatever lighting the house has that's what that's what's

being run and is it a house lighting designer every night yeah

House ld yeah yeah um and uh you know we just give them a cue sheet and sure

actually tom himself goes over the entire set with them,

which is really nice that's one of the things i like working like about working

with tom he's not afraid to do any work so he's he's part of the uh the crew in that sense so.

That's really smart i mean yeah yeah Yeah, it's his show.

Who better? It's always sort of

baffled me when i talked to well actually both sides of it have baffled me that

like the first time i was i i talked to um why can't i think of scotty's last

name scotty baldwin who uh

mixed front of house for prince for for so long right you know and he said how

closely he and prince work together and i was like oh this is really but it

made sense it was like well of course

you're the you at front of house are the you are the producer of the sound for

the evening you are the filter between what's happening on stage and what the

audience hears it's a pretty important job like

Well and and it's it's good that you said that because i mean that's another

thing that tom does even before he's on deck uh the band will play and they'll

do all their parts and he won't be up there obviously but uh he'll come out

and he'll listen and i would say nine,

eight ten times out of ten,

you know he doesn't say much to me sure say it sounds good man or whatever but

occasionally he'll come up to me he's like hey can we change this can we get

this harmony right can we get

this part right you know when i when i walk over here i can't hear this um.

And in the past that would have bothered me they would have been like who are

you i'm the front house engineer but now i'm realizing you know it's it's not

a that's that's more of a compliment than it is a critique um,

he trusts me enough to know that he can come to me and i'm not going to get offended when yeah.

It's important to be able to have that conversation because you know it's First

of all, it's his show. Nobody's looking at me when they see it.

And people aren't going to complain about Ryan Goldbacher's front of house mix.

They're going to complain about not being able to hear Tom.

So it's like, you know, never be offended when your artist comes to you and

says, unless you're being a douche about it.

But, you know, Tom always is like very, very constructive. He's like,

you know, I heard this when I walked over here. And, you know,

like the last show we did, he walked upstairs and to a place that I hadn't been

before. And just said, hey, you know, it's hard to hear the guitars in this spot.

And I was like, okay, I'm going to, you know,

where were you? And he's like, you're right up in this corner.

So, you know, naturally I just, well, he, when he gets up on deck,

I walk up there and I'd listen with my iPad and I'm like, yeah, you're totally right.

And you know, it's a, yeah, you know, that's, I love working with guys like

that because you, if they tell you how to make yourself more valuable to them,

a lot of, a lot of artists will not say anything and then just get upset.

They'll not say anything out of not wanting to hurt your feelings,

but then they'll just get upset, and before you know it, you don't know why,

they're looking for another house engineer.

Yeah, right.

Yeah, that's fantastic.

Yeah.

It's very refreshing to work with somebody that's not afraid to tell you how

they want to sound and still trust you enough to be able to let me...

Do it the way I think is right.

No, you are like, I'm glad you said this.

This is one of those things that a band at any level. And I mean,

I think it's important at every level.

But the conversation between you and Tom persists from gig to gig, right?

Because you're literally there for the entire tour, which is a wonderful luxury

for Tom to afford for his production. Right. Like, you know,

having the same front of house engineer, you learn the show,

you learn what he wants, you learn his sensibilities.

But really, as you've said, it's all about serving what Tom wants his band to

sound like when someone comes to see his show. Right. Right.

Yeah. And well, and that's it's it's yeah. But he still allows me to get there

the way I want to get there.

Right. No, I sorry. I didn't mean to step on you. I love that. No, no, no.

Yeah.

Yeah. And I think this is a really important thing for every musician and every

front of house engineer to to understand and where it's where it can get overlooked.

It's important everywhere. It's true everywhere.

But at, you know, at the level you're working at here, it's kind of a well,

duh, of course you want to have this relationship. Right. Well, I think.

It's not even an argument i will state it as fact that you want to have this

relationship when you're a band playing a one-off gig in a club where

you're working with the house engineer for this for the night right it's the

same thing is important and the same communication is important the problem is

you've just met this person or the you know exactly you you don't know each

other and yet this person's a member of your band all night and

Yeah well and you know you always run into the uh i i find this isn't as true

as people make it out to be but you know there's always that grumpy sound man

stereotype sure yes you know and,

i would say 90 of the time you don't run into that person but you know occasionally

you do and it's it's just i don't know it sucks but,

yeah you can't be if you're a front of house guy at a club you can't be that

guy no you gotta be the communicator you gotta be the one that's that's real you gotta realize that,

But the way you represent them is going to affect – I mean, you never know how

that's going to affect them in the future.

You never know who's going to be at that gig. You never know who's going to

hear it. You never know who's going to –,

You know, put up, you know, make some kind of media posts and say,

oh, it sounded great. It sounded terrible. You know, it just it matters.

And it's, you know, it's important just to respect that because it's it's makes

you look good and it makes them look good.

No, there's no loser when you have that conversation about how to make everybody,

look as good as possible.

Yes. Oh, well, where there can be a loser.

I agree with you. The sort of the gist of the conversation, everybody wins.

The approach of the conversation, therefore, becomes very important.

If I'm in the band and I walk in and I go up to the engineer and the first thing

I say is, all right, look, this is what you've got to do for us for tonight.

It may not land well, even if the message is agreed, mutually agreed to be important.

Right. There's that. Hey, great to meet you.

Nice to be working together. Right. That kind of stuff. And then I've always,

I've not always, I've in recent years come to the realization that every band

needs to be able to describe what you sound like in 30 seconds or less.

Yeah.

I agree find an efficient way to communicate like this is the vibe that

if you were at our last show like our fans were this is what they heard and

let's let's aim for that like and I love the way you said it trusting you to get there via

the things you already know how to do that's great.

But the destination is the part that needs to be discussed, not the not not the path there. Right.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. So I challenge every band to come up with that before your next gig.

Yeah and i would say to make the engineer feel more comfortable with you,

that should be a conversation you have pretty early on,

in loaded it shouldn't be like you're all set up and then one guy's standing

out by him kind of just listening because that's intimidating and that's weird

you know have that description you know that 30 second description of what you want to sound like,

ready to go you know,

whenever you're in a good spot to have that conversation before you actually start making noise,

because that's just that just develops rapport and you know doesn't make anybody

feel defensive about somebody standing behind them you know,

Trying to, you know, is this guy happy with how it sounds?

Are they unhappy? You know, what are they thinking? You know,

when you already know what they're looking for, just, you know,

as much as you can, it's going to, I don't know, make things easier.

It makes people less intimidated. It makes people feel better about it.

I love that. Yeah. And, and I think of all the conversations we've had about

it, I don't know that we've, that part of it seems so obvious to me that I don't

know that we've ever articulated it, that the, the timing of that conversation, but you're right.

Like it's one of the first things, maybe not the first you say, hello.

My, my thing is I always try to offer something helpful first, you know?

And, and so it's just, you know, something procedural, like,

Hey, you know, I've, I've got a D112 mounted inside my kick drum.

You're welcome to use it if you want. If you want to use your own mic,

that sounds great. You know, this is an FYI, not an instruction, right?

But, you know, telling them our bass player plays a cello and a bass,

you're going to see about 3 dB a difference when they put their bass on.

So just a heads up on that, right? Like those kinds of things.

Yeah. Just to pave the way. Yeah.

Yeah, well, it puts them, you know, because they want to be able to hear everything,

too. And if you don't articulate things like that, you know,

they're going to miss it.

They're going to be like, well, what just happened? And they're not going to

realize that, you know, all right, the cello is 3D, be quieter. I need to raise it up.

But you said something, and now they know, oh, all right, that's what I heard.

That's right. I remember this.

Yeah.

No, but having that 30-second conversation is important. I'll give you the example that we've come to.

I play and actually play in quite a few bands um we still haven't i'm not sure

that we've come up with one from my original band with bitter pill that that um

that has the cello on the bass but the i play in a cover band that does um hard

rock covers and i always tell them like look we're a four-piece band occasionally

we have a our lead singer plays a second guitar but by and large It's guitar, bass, drums.

I say, think Van Halen, crunchy guitars, shimmering harmonies.

Let me know if you have any questions. And that's it.

Yeah, that's it. That's great.

It gives you a starting point. These are the important things here.

I don't feel the need to say, keep the lead vocal ahead of everything else.

You're going to do that. I know you know that. Yeah.

So here's the things you might not think about at first. Yep.

So, yeah, because that tells you so much more than going over every little detail.

You know, I know what Van Halen sounds like. All right. You know,

whatever kind of band you are. I know what Nirvana sounds like.

Right.

I, you know, it's I know what the Beatles sound like. It just it just I don't

have to be told every little detail about what you want. If you just say this

is what we're going for, you know, and it's it's great.

Yeah. yep and and my advice is don't get too hung up on it as as a musician like

i could sit here and articulate all the ways our band does not sound like van halen and so

i could see where somebody would be hesitant to say we sound like van halen

except like no no except like just get close they're gonna get you the rest

of the way there they know how to do their job yeah they're when

They when they when they hear what when they hear that van halen thing and then

they hear what you actually sound that they're going to know exactly what you mean.

Correct you

Know because it's yeah so yeah.

Yep yep so don't get hung up on well we don't sound exactly like because we

had this conversation inside the band it was like well but is it more like this

or is it more like this i'm like

let me put myself in the shoes of the front of house engineer and try and explain

this to you and then what we did was we asked the front of house engineer that

we work with most regularly we have a guy that we bring to most gigs and and and

i i ran this by him and he's like yeah that's perfect like great good to go

yeah yeah yep all we need to know that's it yeah

fun um i love this i love nerding out about this stuff

No it's it's great because it doesn't get talked about a lot and i think it's

it's i that's the kind of stuff like i want to talk about is i don't the gear

stuff i love the gear i love all that stuff but i but there's there's enough

people talking about all that stuff the other things are,

i don't know i i'm all about making the next generation of engineers better

and i think stuff like that is is more important than,

uh you know all the videos and stuff you could watch online about twisting knobs

and plugins and stuff like that and as much as great as that stuff is you know

there's there's a lot of uh you know what we're talking about right now i think,

it's just something that isn't covered enough and,

uh you know i think it's extremely valuable i know it was to me when I started

I had a lot of good mentors kind of giving me that same sort of.

Advice sure

Uh starting up so yeah.

No it um and it's important I think I'm on on both sides of this right you know

for the engineers but also for bands to learn I've always said it's my secret

mission here with Gig Gavin because I always say it it's really not secret uh to

teach musicians and bands as much as i possibly can about how live sound works

uh without driving them away because i want them to hear the next lesson too

yeah so yeah there you go yeah

yeah it's important and it could you know do you so

the flip side of that is it's great when and it's not always mandatory but it's

great when i get to work with an engineer who is a musician and has spent at

least sometime on stage, but, but I've worked with some great engineers who are not musicians.

Are you a musician? Do you play anything?

Well, I play, I play guitar. I wouldn't call myself a musician.

I think it's okay to call yourself a musician. Like, yeah, I can,

I know, I know all of my major and minor bar chords. I'll say that. Okay.

Well, so no, I, I mean, I, I actually, the, the story of how I got into the

business was, you know, I just, I, I think my,

My parents just wanted me to have some kind of productive hobby.

And I kind of expressed a little bit of interest in learning guitar when I was 10 years old.

So they got me a guitar, and I learned it. And I just kind of dabbled in it

and stuff like that all through middle school.

But when high school came around, I had the opportunity to go to a performing

arts school. And I didn't go there because I was really into the music.

I went there because their academics were just way better than the normal high school.

And you had to declare a performing arts major. So I was like,

well, I play guitar. I may as well do music. I'm not interested in TV or theater

or any of the other stuff that they did. So that's what I decided to do.

And because of where I lived, I was waiting an hour and a half after school every day.

The music teacher there, Lou London, he was the technology, I don't know.

There was a music teacher, Chris McMillan, who was our main music teacher.

But they also hired another guy that was overseeing technology because they

were trying to bring in a lot of music technology into the program the year I started there.

And he would see me sitting there every day, and I would just be dabbling on

guitar, and I would be playing around with some of the gear they had while I

was waiting for my mom to pick me up.

And he was playing on this computer with this weird-looking thing.

And um he said hey brian do you want to come over here and learn how to use

this software and i was like all right yeah i'll come over and learn it and

i'm like hey what is this and he's i was like oh that's a dumb name for a piece

of software what the heck is pro tools it.

Is kind of a dumb name isn't it it doesn't describe it at all yeah that's right

No and i'm like this is this is weird but then like you know when i started

realizing all right i can't play But I can do this.

I can listen for this. It's really, really cool that I can use the DAW like

a word processor. Like, oh, delete? Wow, that's crazy. I never thought that was a thing.

And that's really how I got into sound initially.

You know, and I was, because I couldn't drive, I was stuck there every day, and I just, yeah, I mean,

by the time I graduated, I was actually, they call it the CEO of the program,

but I was the class president, and I had my own little studio and everything,

and yeah, but I started doing studio stuff, and that's,

and while I was in high school, my teacher got me gigs, and I grew up in New

Jersey, like right by the Jersey Shore, so there's a lot of entertainment there,

and I got gigs at different venues that were around there, and that's how I,

got into live sound as well.

So interesting. I, you know, I've, I've, it makes perfect sense.

And I've, I've heard this from some of the best engineers and some of my favorite

engineers that they started in a studio and then

kind of realized that yes, of course I can do this in the studio, but also.

I'm good enough under pressure that I enjoy the live aspect of it,

right? Because there is that.

And this part of it, to me anyway, is the same as being on stage playing live.

You are going to make mistakes, right?

But you have to be able to recover from them quickly. And you kind of have to

embrace and even enjoy that without a net sort of thing.

Because in the studio, you have a huge net. I mean, there's budgets and time

and all that. But still, like, if you really screw something up, it can be erased.

Whereas live, the best thing you can do is be better next time. Like, that's it.

Or even the next measure, right?

Like, you don't have to wait for the next gig. Just be better later.

Yeah, or you can, like, oh, now I'm playing a jazz note. Let me figure out a

way out of this. Correct. You know, it's really good.

Yeah, I love those moments. I had

I had at least one of them On Saturday night At a gig I got distracted and cut

a guitar Solo short and stopped playing Because the guitar solo ends With a

hard cut We were playing that Poison tune nothing but a good time And

I was I had it in my head because I'd had a conversation with somebody This

particular band casual The one that sounds like Van Halen But doesn't but that's okay

We do it like poison does live and in the in the studio poison does these hits

in the middle of the tune on one and three whereas live they do it on two and four

and i was just thinking about it in my head like while we were playing i was

playing the groove for the solo

and it was like all right if it's time it was not time it was not time

nope nope but you know we recovered and it's all fine and like you know we made

the song work and people that were there were like oh i love the way you played

that song it's like cool it was a unique version yeah yeah exactly

But like you have to have that attitude

to play music live and i also think that's the the differentiator between mixing

one of the differentiate i mean there's there's pros and cons to both but you

know that that taking it from the studio being a you know uh

an engineer in the studio and then moving that to being a live engineer you

have to be ready for those moments whether you cause them or they're caused

by gremlins in the system so

Yeah but a lot of times too like i don't i don't know how you feel being a musician

but sometimes the mistakes i make are actually better than the things i would have done on purpose,

you know they teach me they teach me something that i wouldn't have thought otherwise um like,

a prime example is i was working with this band um stiff little fingers a punk

rock band from from ireland and when i got the gig a really good friend of mine

got me the gig his name is steve smith um,

he's kind of he's like a legendary engineer anyway he got me the gig And he just told me, listen,

Stick and Jake's tone is turning up every knob all the way.

There's no point in telling him to turn down.

It's just not going to happen. They'll point the amp a different way if you

ask them to, but turning down is not going to be a thing. Needless to say, I mean, it was loud.

And out of desperation, probably on the second gig, I just killed...

Something i would have never killed in the eq and i did it with two eqs i doubled up two eqs and,

i was like oh my god this sounds great and now it's a thing i use a trick i

use on just about every rock guitar i've ever done and you know it's,

it's some of like the least intuitive stuff you'd ever think of but yeah it's

like you just don't know what's gonna what what thing is gonna teach you something new.

Oh i love this all right i want to dig back into this a little bit more The

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now back to this EQ stacking thing.

You have sort of an EQ that you would put on the guitar. Now you're adding a second EQ to the chain.

What are you doing with this second EQ?

I'm just getting more gain reduction. Okay. Like the console,

I don't remember what it was, but usually a console has, most consoles have

like either 12 to 15 dB of gain per band of EQ.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So if you stack an EQ, you can get more...

More reduction. ...EQ

Out of it.

Yeah.

So, because nobody's, there's not many consoles that have like a notch filter

or anything like that to get it out.

So, yeah, I inserted, I mean, it depended, we weren't traveling with a console

on that one, so it just depended on what desk I was on.

But I would try to insert, I would use the actual channel EQ,

plus I would insert either a graph, or if I could insert another parametric EQ, I would do that too.

And just turn it down, and it just cleaned everything up, and it gave me room for the vocals.

And, I mean, I don't do it as drastically normally, but it's something I do

on every tour I do. It's just, I never, it's the least intuitive thing.

I ever would have thought I would ever do on a guitar, but it works great.

And where are you, like what EQ range, like what frequency range are you dumping?

Like between 2 and 4K. Like it's not where you think,

it's not where you think at all and it's like why does that work because it's

that's not how a guitar sounds but it makes the guitar sound bigger it makes

you you can get the guitar louder uh it's not fighting with the vocal and you don't have to,

dip it as much as i did on those other ones sure that's a that's a trick you'd

think you'd want to turn that up because that's the.

Guitar that's where it lives not necessarily no no i um i

wound up doing that when i joined this the band that sounds like van halen uh

but doesn't when i joined that band we're all on ears and

after the first couple of gigs i'm driving home noticing that i'm hearing like

a little bit of of ring in my ears i'm like okay what's going on here like i

i've been on ears for over 20 years like i'm there are times when

i let it get too loud but by and large i have it very quiet in my ears

and i'm like all right why is this happening like this is consistent now with

this band it's happened twice i like i gotta figure this out and our singer has a

fantastic range he can sing you know skid row and motley crew and like and journey

and all this stuff which is fantastic and then we have that crunchy guitar and

they both live in that two to four k range and so

i started cutting it out in our ears for just like just in our ears back but

for for everybody in the band and they were like wait, this sounds fantastic now.

I'm like, Oh, it's, it's way less fatiguing. It's way less fatiguing on everybody.

In the room, not just us. Yes. Yep. Yep. Yep.

So it's, yeah. Even though it's, it's, it's totally counterintuitive, but yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, I know. It's great. Yeah. It's not what you would think.

I mean, it kind of reminds me it.

And this will, you know, betray my at least my past ignorance,

which is fine. I love learning things.

Uh the first time i was mixing a recording here and there was just too much

i couldn't get the bass to sound like i wanted it to sound it was just too flappy

and like there was too much energy

in the the low end and i wasn't getting enough of like that mid-range where

where i like to hear and feel the bass

and so i put a high pass filter on it and i wrote it up to like probably 80

hertz or something maybe even a hundred and suddenly the sound cleaned up like

this seems at the wrong to put a high pass filter on the bass but

and now i do it live it's like oh how did i not think about this

yeah it's so obvious you

Know yeah well and especially with rock bass too you i mean you think bass you think bass uh,

but you know there's a lot of high end or a lot of high mid and bass yeah And,

one of the things I always tell engineers, too, is don't call a kick drum a

bass drum. It is not a bass drum.

It's a very full-range instrument. There's a lot of airiness in it,

and there's also a lot of low-end in it. And if you think of it as a bass drum, you're going to mix it.

Well, I mean, maybe it's the right way. Maybe for EDM or hip-hop or something,

that's the right way to think about it. But for rock, you want some air in that

bass, in that kick drum. see I just I just.

Made you just did it yourself yeah yeah yeah but like the point stands right

for sure yeah yeah yeah yeah

Like it's all about I mean,

You develop that ear, and you're never going to have it right away, but,

it's all about ears over gear. I,

mean, I always tell people, you've got to be careful about how you do this.

Obviously, you don't want to get fired, but don't be afraid to turn the knobs until it sounds good.

Microphone placement is more important. Amptone is more important,

but when you're in the middle of a show, you can't move that mic.

You've got to be willing to just try something.

And you can always undo it if it doesn't work.

Just make sure you're not going to – if you're doing monitors,

don't do it. But if you're in front of the house, you've got a little more leeway

to make things happen. And just try something. And if it doesn't work,

just go right back to where it was.

It's not that difficult to undo something.

Yep, but you might – well, either way, you're going to learn something,

and you might learn a new trick. That's right.

Yeah, oh, yeah. Yeah. Especially after you're out of school and you're past

the mentor phase, everything you learn,

I mean, well, it's not completely true, but most of the things you learn are

some things you're going to teach yourself, and that's going to give you,

you know, your own edge or your own sound or the reason people are going to

hire you over anybody else.

That's fair. I think, I don't know, I mean, I think people hire me because I

get something sounding a certain way.

So, I mean, you know, it's, you know, and I would like to be remembered for

the guy that got things sounding that way.

Right. But, you know, that's, yeah, I think it's important. and it's like a

studio engineer too like you hire bruce swedean because of how he got,

michael jackson sounding good or you hire butch fig because of what he the great

cool things he did with like nirvana or all those incredible bands he did that's every.

Other band he did that's right yeah

Yeah yeah or butch walker or whoever you hire them because of the sounds they

get and you know that's i i think in live sound uh you know you it's a little

it's it's you're It's a little different, but, you know, people do hire you because,

of what you bring to the table.

Well, for sure. I think with live sound, it's

certainly about the way an engineer can get it to sound, but also,

and also, not but also, and also because you can trust them

to figure out a solution to a problem without freaking out about it.

Yeah, and that comes with experience, but yeah, exactly.

And that's for monitors, too. Like, it's, yeah.

Have you ever done a tour where you've mixed monitors? Is that a thing?

It's a thing. The last tour, well, I did Mr. Big's final U.S.

Tour, and I did monitors on that.

And I'm a pretty good monitor engineer, but I don't enjoy it.

Interesting. Interesting.

Yeah. So, like, when I started in Nashville, when I started doing live sound

in Nashville, I worked at this place called the wild horse and you know,

it was, that honestly, the,

In my opinion, the best way to become a really good front-of-house engineer

is to become a really good monitor engineer.

And I had that opportunity to do that because the guys that had been there longer

wanted to do front-of-house. And that really made me a better engineer because

you have – the pressure of it, at least for me, the pressure of it made me good.

I got really good at bringing out wedges by ear.

I mean, there wasn't RTAs and all these fancy plug-ins they have now and stuff

like that. And because of that,

I really truly believe this. If I didn't learn how to bring out a wedge by ear,

back then, wedges fed back a lot more, and you couldn't walk out there with an iPad.

And see where it is.

Yeah, well, see where it is, or even if you couldn't see where it is,

you couldn't sit there with a graphic EQ or an EQ and check where it was.

You had to go out and listen, know what frequency it was, and then walk back

to the console and then turn it down. And then you'd go back and check.

So it um i don't know in that i've read that learning all that i i i've harp

on this on some of my online videos and stuff like that but learning all that uh really,

i i'm afraid it's going to be a lost art especially with some of these plugins

that are coming out that because it really trained my ear to be a much better

front of house engineer um and like there's some really incredible things coming

out and you know i'm careful not to,

to bad mouth them but But I want to make sure other engineers that are kind

of in my position and above me aren't pushing that stuff so hard that the younger generation,

doesn't take the shortcut. I don't know. And I don't think it's intentional.

No. I just think it's like.

Yeah. The tools give us shortcuts. No, I get what you're saying.

And a lot of those shortcuts are valuable. I agree.

I realized recently sometime in the last year that I am not nearly as good at

ringing out monitors by ear as I used to be.

I was fantastic at it. Right. Like it's like one of the first things I learned

how to do in terms of live sound. And it was I told the story a million times.

You know, I was the drummer in the band and the PA lived at my house and I got

sick and tired of hearing feedback during our rehearsals.

You know, I was a kid. I was in high school or whatever.

And so i would hang with the engineers at gigs and watch them call frequencies

you know there'd be one guy on stage

calling frequencies to the person at the console so that they didn't have to

run back and forth but it was that and it was like wait what is he doing why

is he doing i would ask questions and be pesky about it and i learned how to do it

and i could ring out monitors like in a heartbeat no problem yeah and then i had to go do it

uh again recently without an rta in front of me and it was like,

whoa, I really, like, I've lost my ability here.

I've lost, I've just, you know, the familiarity with it, it would all come back,

I'm sure. But, you know, it's like, oh man, it's a muscle.

And if you, yeah, if you don't do it every day, it's, it's, it's a muscle you're going to lose.

But like one of the most popular videos I did on Instagram, I,

you know, I never thought it would do well, but I just, I whistle a frequency

and I whistle it really good and loud.

And then I just say, if you need an RTA to find that frequency,

you're not a real engineer something like that,

or uh i love that something like that i just you know some kind of hyperbole and i mean,

it was snarky but it was like and i was like sorry it's just tough love and

you know i i mean i say a lot of things for hyperbole but i do mean what i say

on on those videos and you get two camps you get the old school guys that are

like you're totally right

i can do this by ear and i don't have to get out an rta and do this and then

there's all the other young guns, which I'm all about tools.

I love tools. I love toys. Um, but you know, the, the, the biggest excuse they

get, well, why would I just not use that tool? And I'm like,

well, because by the time you pull out that RTA and you find that frequency,

I have already got your job.

Yep.

You know? Yep.

And it's not like something, I don't mean that in the sense like I'm better

than you. I mean that in the sense like you can learn this.

It doesn't even take that long. I mean, all I did, well, you can use an RTA

to learn how to do it. But what I did was I got an oscillator.

And I kind of did a little bit of research and like what are the main frequencies

that always fade back? And it's obvious it's this, this, this, and this.

And I just listened to that oscillator and then I learned how to whistle it.

Interesting.

And i can and there's you know you don't have that perfect pitch or anything

like that you just got to get close enough to be like this is 1k i you know

like 1k is about about there and right if you.

Yeah i'll test i'll test it later actually one of the listeners will test it

for but no your point stands yeah yeah yeah

Yeah like it's yeah you don't have to be right on it but i you're like i maybe

it's maybe it's you know 1200 hertz or whatever but it's close enough to know,

if I hear something like that, I know it's about 1K.

And I know that's where you've got to hear it on the graph.

Yeah, and then because I know where that is, I know where 800 is,

I know where 630 is, I know where 250 is,

you know where 6.3 is, if you can do the 8K, 10K, you kind of just get it by doing that, and,

people will make the argument, well, an RTA is faster, and I'm like,

no, it really isn't, and it's not going to tell you anything

in the middle of a show when it's really loud on stage, and you start hearing

feedback you're just going to see a graph like this with everything like this

and you don't know what fed back you.

Don't know where it is you can't see it on the middle of the in the in the suit

Man no when it's yeah when it's noisy you can't do it so it's it's an important

skill and then like i said it made me when i started doing more and more front

of house it made me be able to listen to an instrument and say all right that's close to where,

that instrument's sounding good let me find that for real you know i can tell

it's less than 200 hertz or whatever and the guy can tweak it there and then move

you know you move the move turn the knobs until you find the actual sweet spot

but yeah it's it's an important skill and i'm i'm a little worried,

that it's going to go away so i try to push people away from using those plugins until they're uh,

a little more experienced you know.

I was having

A great tool it's a great tool it's super it's super cool but it's uh i mean,

i think learning the fundamentals uh and i hate being that guy like oh you young

kids but no i think it's really really important.

It is important and and i was having this conversation with somebody else in

the industry recently it was not on the show so i'll leave their name out of

it but uh we were talking about ai and i am

like for a lot of things I use AI routinely.

You know, I will take the transcript of this episode and have it draft me a

description. Now I'll go and edit that description or at least confirm that

it's not completely off the rails, you know.

But like there's a lot of things where it makes it is the best assistant you

can have for many jobs. Not every job, but for many jobs, especially,

you know, that kind of work.

And the conversation we were having was about AI mixing tools, right?

And I think that there are venues and scenarios where having an AI mix is going

to wind up with a better sound

than the disgruntled engineer that's been working at a club for,

you know, 30 years and is not paying attention and, you know,

all of that stuff, right?

The person that that checked out a long time ago, you replace that person or

even don't even replace them.

Like if that person's smart, they'll grab an AI mix, either console or a plug

in or whatever, and they'll use it.

And then they can literally stop doing most of their job.

Break and and like i love that that exists but the question then comes well how does the

next generation of engineers learn how to do that if the entry-level jobs don't

exist and and i like i don't know the answer to that we will find out yeah yeah

Um yeah i totally agree and you know and i i i mean,

Yeah. I mean, it's a tool and I use it too. I mean, but I, I also,

I'm sure you, you find this quite a bit when you use it, once you actually read

what it does, sometimes it's just way off.

Yeah. And it's, I mean, it's, it's as much about, it's like anything,

you know, I'm, I'm, I've lived in the text tech space for a very long time.

I have, you know, I just have a pod, just had a podcast turned 21 years old,

the Mac geek gab show, which is all tech.

So I've always kind of been on the bleeding edge of things, you know,

and, and often getting cut, but that's okay.

Uh and but that's like how you learn and i i love that these tools exist but

i'm reminded of like when when google first came around right like when when we had search engines

and there was there were people who got paid they started little cottage consulting businesses being

search engine prompt experts and if you needed to look for something on the

internet you would hire them because they knew how to put your search into google now today

I would say most of us have more expertise than those people did back then right

like that that that's just become and i think the true the same is true at in a well in this

similar way with ai you know we see prompt engineers out there and the people who have

experimented enough with it and know how to prompt it like my what i'm what

i have you know claude create from this transcript will be way better than what

i had it create six months ago or 12 months ago from a transcript then

because i've learned how to prompt it better right and of course the tool's

also gotten better let's not lose sight of that but

but i've also gotten better at using the tool so

But i had the opportunity to get better losing using that tool whereas that's

the that's the question is like how does someone get to your level

if the entry level now is completely taken care of better than someone who at

the entry level could do it by some tool and and like i said we'll figure it

out i'm not scared about this but i'm curious

because i will figure it out We've always figured it out.

I agree. But one of the things I think is the way to do that,

or a good way to do that, is sound companies need to...

Some companies do do this, and they do a pretty good job of it,

but there needs to be some kind of mentorship and apprentice programs.

Because, I mean, in my opinion, I mean, some schools, and not all schools,

some schools do a really good job, but some schools, I mean,

I'm sure you've heard the phrase saying those who can't teach.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And I don't mean that in the sense that it's not a noble thing,

but I do mean it in the sense that –,

And if you're the guy, you're going to learn way more. I just did an interview

with Steve Smith who I talked about earlier.

He said he put it as good as you could put it. You will learn way more by doing

something on the job than you will ever learn in any textbook or any school.

And the best way to do that is some

kind of mentorship program at a sound company or a studio or anywhere.

Just because it's a great way to put yourself in a position where you can turn

knobs, make mistakes, and not be put in a position where you're going to get fired for it.

Because a lot of times I see people coming out of these schools and they're,

kind of just thrown right into a gig.

And they don't really have – they have the knowledge.

They know what everything on that console does, where everything goes,

what everything does, every button, all that stuff. but the experience to,

especially monitors to do it well and do it fast and get it done.

It comes from being there and doing it for real. Yeah.

Pressure in the moment. Yeah.

Pressure in the moment, but also, you know, like I said, the, the,

the sound companies that, that hire those kids,

and let them tip a console when they're, you know, they can,

they, I think they should consider it part of the workday, but they should set

aside time for the young guys to tip a console and put up a mic and learn how to ring it out,

or you know get virtual sound checks going and mix try things screw it up do

this do that yep yeah screw it up make mistakes and i mean what do they say

failure is the best teacher.

Oh yeah uh

But it's but if you can do if you can fail in a situation where you're not going

to get fired and you don't have people breathing down your neck and the show's

not on the line that is the ultimate way to really learn how to do it.

I i do these gigs at this theater, playing drums at this theater.

And they do musicals there. They also do, we do these rock shows where we just

did a Yacht Rock thing. We're doing a Frankie Valli thing. We do these theme

nights, we'll call them.

And we've had some turnover in The Engineer. We have a great engineer that mixes

these rock shows for us now.

They are not they are not hired to be a systems engineer they are hired to mix

right and they don't understand how the system works and that's okay like we all knew that coming in

for the first couple of gigs the house systems engineer was present for all

of this stuff and then we got confident cocky perhaps and that we stopped hiring

the systems engineer to be there and

At every single one of those gigs, there's a moment where someone's like,

I don't know how this works. Dave, can you figure it out for us?

And it's like, okay, no.

Dave banged drum tonight. Like, I have my own thing to worry about.

Like, literally, the last gig, we opened the house at 7 o'clock.

The gig started at 7.30. We had rehearsed all afternoon.

At that moment was when our front of house engineer realized that the pre-show

music, the route from the Mac studio to the system was not routing audio.

And so we had no pre-show music, which meant we had no curtain speech.

Like this was something that needed to be solved.

But I also needed to eat food and change in 27 minutes.

And so I'm up there and we figured it out. I like, thankfully,

I know enough about Macs and enough about sound that it was like,

okay, I'm going to do this.

They're like that's not exactly how it's supposed to work i'm like and yet i'm

walking away because it's working you're gonna do this this way tonight but

i told the the powers that be at the theater i said

i'm gonna come in here on my own time i'm not doing another gig here until

you let me come in here after hours i'll just come in at midnight like i don't care

if i'm gonna be the one in the room that you ask to solve problems

i'm gonna spend two hours with this system and i'm gonna break it and fix it

so that i know how this because the room is routed like crazy there's a million

different things because it's a theater it's not just like

mixer front of house monitors it's not it's not straightforward yeah they got

They have a lot of stuff they got to.

Cover there exactly yeah i mean it all makes sense it's all there for a reason

i don't understand and i need to just go and they're like oh we can have you

know the systems engineer with you i'm like no No, I want to be alone.

If I'm going to be alone when I have to fix it, I want to be alone when I break it.

Then afterwards, if I have lingering questions, then I want to talk to the systems engineer. Yeah.

The why matters later.

Yeah.

Yeah, exactly. Well, putting it back together is sometimes the best way to figure

out how it all worked in the first place.

Absolutely. And maybe I'll find maybe I'll find an inefficiency.

Maybe I won't. I don't know.

Right. Like maybe it gets better in the end, probably.

But, you know, because that's how it is. Not that I'm some some genius.

But if anybody does that and they tear it apart, they realize, why is it done this way?

If nobody can answer the question. Well, now we know this is just,

you know, maybe it shouldn't be. Maybe it shouldn't be that way anymore.

Maybe this was done 10 years ago, and now it's— Yeah,

For a different reason, yeah.

For a different reason, yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right.

I know we've gone longer than either of us predicted, but we're having fun.

You mentioned that you do videos and all kinds of stuff, and you've created

a company called Show Logistics. Can you tell us a little bit about that and

how people can find you and all that?

I want to make sure that people know that before we find our

Way out of here. Show Logistics is just my loan out company for tour.

Got it. If people want to find me, my most active on Instagram,

it's at Ryan the Goldbacher. Okay.

But you can go to Ryan the Goldbacher.com, and that goes to all of my stuff.

I'm on YouTube, TikTok, Facebook, any of that stuff. So if you Google me, you'll find me. Great.

I'll make sure to put all those links in the show notes here at giggabpodcast.com.

Is there anything else that we missed before we say goodbye?

I want to make sure we cover all the things you wanted to cover, too. So...

I mean, I thought I covered most of the stuff I want to cover.

I mean, if there's I would I would love to come back on in the future.

It's like if things come up and industry things change. I mean,

I love talking about this stuff. Clearly. But I mean, this was this was this was a lot of fun.

Great. Thank you for doing this. No, this is a blast. I'm glad you invited yourself

back on for a second visit because I was going to do it anyway.

So this we're great minds think alike, man. It's awesome.

There are three words that we always say on this show and I would be honored

if you would take the honors and share them as we say goodbye

okay just read what it says yeah go ahead however you want you can sing it,

you can shout it, you can whisper it, I don't care

Always be performing.

There it is, I love it thanks for doing this, thanks for listening everybody

make sure to check out giggabpodcast.com for the show notes and then follow

us on Instagram and Facebook at giggabpodcast on all the platforms and YouTube too.

Actually, I think I got to change that. I think we're just giggab on YouTube.

Probably should make that consistent. I'll think about that.

All right. Thanks for hanging out, everybody. We'll see you next week. Thanks, Ryan.

Thank you.