5 YRS AGO FLAGSHIP: Keller & Powell talk risks and potential of AEW Rampage, CM Punk, Bray, NXT cuts, Summerslam line-up, Cody-Malakai Black
In this week's 5 Yrs Ago Flashback episode of the Wade Keller Pro Wrestling Podcast "Flagship" episode (8-10-2021), PWTorch editor Wade Keller and Jason Powell from ProWrestling.net and the Pro Wrestling Boom podcast discussed the upcoming debut of AEW Rampage (announce team overexposure risks, format ideas), C.M. Punk, Bray Wyatt, NXT cuts and the odd Vince McMahon treatment of NXT lately, Karrion Kross, Summerslam line-up, Drew McIntyre’s current situation, Bianca Belair’s upside as a centerpiece top star, Sasha Banks’s return, Charlotte’s improvements, John Cena’s return, Cody-Malikay Black angle, and some fun mailbag topics including which AEW wrestlers would Vince McMahon most covet.
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Wade Keller Pro Wrestling Podcast five years ago. This week
on the flagship, Jason Paul from Progrestling dot Net joined me.
We talked about the upcoming debut of AW Rampage and
announced team over exposure risks and some ideas for the
format to shake things up. Also topics included c Impunk,
Bray Wyatt, NXT cuts in the advinswick Man, treatment of
NXT Lately, Carrie and Cross, the Summer Slam lineup, Drew
mctire's current situation, Bianca Bella's Upside is a centerpiece, Top Star,
Sasha Banks's return, Charlotte's Improvements, John Cena's return, the Cody
and Malachi Black Angle, and some fun mail Bank topics
including which aw wrestlers would Vince Wickmann most cove it
over two hours of a broad array of topics five
years ago this week on the flag Ship. It originally
dropped on August tenth, twenty twenty one, and it is
today's wad Keller Prossing Podcast five years ago Flagship Flashback
for Wednesday, August twelfth, twenty twenty six. I genuinely don't
know where to start basing since the last time we talked,
it's we've gotten like two years worth of news and
I don't think it's going to slow down. The next
month is going to be crazy, with Rampage debuting Friday,
the United Center event a week after that Summer Slam
all out who knows Who's going where? Oh yeah, and
then we have the drama with nx T and WWE.
I've talked a lot about the the NXT story on
VIP audio shows. I don't think I've done a ton
on on the free shows like here on the way
Keller Prosing podcast, so I guess I'll start there. It's
sort of a random draw about where where what makes
the most sense to start because I remember really curious
on your take on things I talked with Rich Fan
on the VIP show Everything with Rich Fan at length,
like or forty five minutes give or take on a
Sunday about this and had You know, I've just got
a lot of kind of takes and theories and and
I think there's a lot of history that that's worth,
you know, keeping things a little in perspective about what
this all means and who's to blame and and all that.
But tonight, excuse me, tonight, NXT, you know, may or
may not look different. I don't know how fast we're
expecting things to look different, other than obviously a subtraction
of some names that we just saw last week, you know,
Bobby Fish, Tyler, Rust, Bronson, Reid. So what's your what's
your take on this? Vince wick Man being crazy and
mean or we should have seen this coming. NXT wasn't
really serving the master task that it was initially created for.
I've cited you and I having these you and me
having these conversations years ago about NXT can't be a
third brand and developmental you know, remember Triple H kV
saying that I was like, I just don't think that
can work. And then for a while I thought, boy
was I wrong, and now I'm going back to my
original opinion, Jason, I was right all along and I
saw the future. So your take on this, well.
Speaker 2: I think it's all of the above in terms of
what you said. I do think there's an element of
Vince being a crazy old man. I do think there's
possibly an element of them not serving the master. It
really comes down to what Paul Avec and his crew
were told by Vince mickmahon as Vince Bickmann wanted them
to do things differently, and they haven't been and that
doesn't seem to be the way that Paul Avec does things.
But I can't rule it out. I just look at
you know, it's not so much right now with the
NXT because I don't think it's in a great place
for a number of reasons. Some of it is just
having the same talent for so long and not replacing
them with you. They've been really good about moving people
up and always having somebody ready waiting in the wings,
and they just haven't had that. It feels like a
really dry promotion right now, and they're still stuck in
the Capital Wrestling Center. So there's a lot of reasons,
but it's not as good as it once was, but
when it was good, that was the way that crew,
Paula Vek and whoever, Shawn Michaels, whoever else, they showed
the way. And quite frankly, a lot of what we
see in AW reminds me of those great takeover events
and a little bit different in ring style obviously, and
there's things at AW does that NXT won't, But it
was very much a work rate driven promotion, but with
just old school booking mentality. At the same time, Vince
doesn't take that. He's still stuck doing what Vince McMahon does,
and Vince mc man's way, in his mind, is working
because look at these billion dollar TV and streaming deals.
But to anyone watching the shows, Okay, SmackDown's not bad.
Some weeks it's even good. Raw continues to be a
train wreck, and I think we've all just watched the
numbers drop for everything but their revenue, and it's just like,
this is not the way. And so I really feel
like they showed him the way. He didn't take the lead,
and look at how many people that he's wasted since
they've been called up to the main roster. And no,
not all of them have been you know, just Taylor
made Vince big man types, but there have been some,
and he's chewed them up and spit them out. And
we're still looking at a handful of people on bull
shows that if you like, they're over, it's a mess.
Speaker 1: What do you think are the biggest if Triple H
and Seawan Michaels hired an attorney for a mock trial
making the case that they have been a good developmental
territory for who Vincent Man has shown himself to be
the last forty years, what's their best argument in terms
of who they gave to Vince and Vince messed.
Speaker 2: Up the entire women's division is because of them. Nothing
They've entirely messed it up, though, But I mean there
was nothing going on. There was a Natalian whoever, and
you know divas on the main roster, and I don't
think they get enough credit for that. I think that
they handed you know, they had Bronz Stroman ready and
some of this too. You know we talked to Vince
has his types, his monster types. They really don't get
enough time to develop an NXT before he gets all
giddy about their size and brings them up to the
main roster. So there are some some bigger people that
he's brought up prematurely. But I do think Stroman was
in place at one time. You go back to that
first match he had with brock Lesner, he was the man,
and of course he had to lose to brock Lesner
because Roman Reiins was going to face brock Lesner WrestleMania,
so we can't have him beat Brock. But Stroman was
very I mean the guy flaked out whatever. He was,
very success bore them. He was a vinced type of guy.
And I think there's you know, I do think there's
a number of people that have been good, solid contributors,
and then there's a lot of people that Vince mcmah
should have gotten more out of, you know. The I mean,
look at what we're seeing in aw right now with
Malachi Black, and I'm not saying he's you know, it's
too early to say just how big he's going to be,
but we all know they could have done more with him.
They could have done more with Dorate. Not that, Androte
is off to a great start there. But still there's
just so many people that have come through that system
that looked ready made including somebody it took him years
to finally get something out of. And I would still
argue they never got what they should have out of Bailey.
Bailey should have I wrote it back up the Brings
truck that was Taylor made Vince McMahon sports entertainment lovable character,
but he didn't create it, so he didn't know what
to do with it. And there's just so many examples
of that.
Speaker 1: A better Nikky Ash much better. Yeah, in the sense,
you know, because Niki's met oh, let's appeal for the kids,
and she's adorable and all that. It's like put are on.
Speaker 2: The third hour of Wrong when kids aren't watching.
Speaker 1: I mean yes, and the crowd is ornery because they're deep,
you know, deep into the third hour of sitting in
their chairs watching watching that product. Yeah. Yeah, So I
think the the idea of Vince McMahon being upset with
what NXT has given him feels like it's possibly lashing
out about something else going on, and so I need
a scapegoat. And remember when Vince mcman hired Eric Bischoff
and Paul Haman is these figureheads perhaps not we'll see,
well they didn't say their figures, but you know, directors
of executive directors were on SmackDown when ratings were in
trouble and networks might have been upset. Now you know
NXT not doing well in the ratings, you know, compared
to AW, it's been it's been a clear victory for AW.
Is this just Vince trying to buy some time with
USA network? Are making major changes? Like there's a history
of Vince kind of doing that. Do you think that's it?
Or is this? Is there something else much more likely
that's going on here?
Speaker 2: I mean the changes in NXT part could be. It
could be the USA isn't thrilled with what they've done
that They're not happy obviously that WWE lost this battle
with AW, even though it wasn't a fair fight in
a lot of ways. I've talked about that before. You know,
that's Aw's a show. They have a ton of talent.
They've done a great job in a lot of ways.
NXT is developmental slash its own brand whatever it is.
You know, they don't have the benefit of bringing in
Shaquille O'Neal. If WWE gets a celebrity, you know, unless
it's poppy, they're going to end up doing our s
back down, you know. I mean, it's things like that.
So I'm not trying to be like a complete paull
of that apologist here, but I never felt like it
was a completely fair fight long term. I think if
if Tony Khan had any booking sensibility and was and
had we known how many people were to become available
to him, I think would have been easy to say, well, yeah,
AW is going to win that battle. But it doesn't
mean that you can explain that to a network executive.
We don't know how excited they work about taking on
NXT in the first place. It really seemed like a
rush together thing. The budget clearly wasn't big enough to
send them out on the road for the production expenses
and things, and so maybe it is trying to salvage
NXT being on USA. I don't know, you know.
Speaker 1: I look at the numbers for NXT, and when they
moved to Tuesday nights, they drew eight hundred, five thousand
and eight hundred and forty one thousand. The previous few
numbers were seven sixty eight, six fifty four, six seventy eight,
five ninety seven, six ninety one. So they got a
search of people trying the product, and in the last
six weeks that they were had to head with aw
their average viewership was six hundred eighty thousand. After those
first four weeks where they had some good if we
take the next six weeks, their average viewership was six
hundred and eighty seven thousand. So I mean, just grabbing
a snapshot of two six week periods, that takes away
the initial surge. They kind of settled into where they
were when Dynamite was competitive. They didn't gain much of
anybody from having the night to themselves, but also having
to move nights, you know, and that's a disadvantage. And
then but the numbers, aren't you know, that that different?
After that they average six hundred and seventy two thousand
the next five weeks before they moved to sci fi.
So and she's just been steady. They got some people
sampling the product, and then they left and they're back
where they were. I wonder if part of this is
Vincent Mann thought, hey, you had eight hundred five and
eight forty one thousand viewers. Those numbers are bet you know,
would keep USA network appy. And obviously there's demographic numbers
two we can be looking at, and I could be averaging.
They tend to run in similar ways up and down.
If it wasn't good enough to be you know, point
one nine point one, seven point one three in the
Key eighteen to forty nine demo, and they needed it
to be above point two to oh, which it was
for the first three weeks they didn't have Aw's competition.
Maybe that prompted it. Maybe it's just clearly a need
it from USA. We need some change, and it's like, well,
I wanted some change too. I want younger guys and
bigger guys. I don't want them promoting guys in their
late thirties.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: The system is set up to help develop talent that
I like, that I believe in, and I'm the boss,
and that's enough to play kate USA Network for a
little while too. If they're if they're grumbling and that
that could be what's going on here too.
Speaker 2: Could be the mistreatment of the NXT champion before NXT
Takeover thirty six and the big showdown matche We carry
on crossing Samoa. Joe tells me that Vince is being
Patchion went about something. Yeah, it's I know, We've heard
it though. They're just going to have Cross go on
this losing streak and then Scarlett's going to show up
and magically it's all going to go away. And it's like,
I don't buy that, you know, and they've already strayed
course from that. Anyway, even if that was the original plan,
there's more going on here.
Speaker 1: Clearly, and that's a dumb plan.
Speaker 2: Yes, if it were that plant anyway, Yeah, yeah, and
why you know, if that really was the plan, and
if it was, I'd have started the day after SummerSlam exactly.
Speaker 1: That's the thing. Like, even if like there's all these things,
even if it was a good plan, which we're saying
it's not, but let's stipulate it was. Yes, started in September.
You don't kneecap this NXT storyline that feels malicious or
completely uh inexcusably oblivious to what your other show on
USA network is in the middle of doing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and they clearly don't care. I mean, it's sad
to see just the way this is going down, Like
you want to make some changes, Hey, I think there
are some changes that need to be made. You want
to get rid of some people that are late. It's
prey for being developmental talent. Are just you know, aging out.
I don't have a problem with that. I understand it
may not. You know, obviously there's going to be fans
that are going to be upset by it, but they're
running a business and I get that. But it's just
the way it's been done that really like, Okay, there's
there's more going on.
Speaker 1: That's the thing. It does feel personal, it feels passive aggressive.
It's a little succession like in terms of father and
son in law and in head games being played at
the expense of a lot of other casualties who shouldn't
be involved. I think the Bronson Reed cut surprised me
more than anything. I mean, Bobby Fish was was, you know,
in his forties, and I mean, you know whatever, I mean,
that's not vincing, man.
Speaker 2: I was honestly surprised when they signed Bobby Fish. The
first time I told me that NXT was they had
aspirations to be something other than developmental.
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, and you know, Tyler rest is a bummer
and all that, but let's realistically, you know, Bronson Reid
was a guy who I thought, and I think just
about everybody thought, oh he's had in the main roster
and he'll get a chance. You know that that accent
was it's money. I mean, you know, he carried himself
in a way that belied his his appearance, and it
was just like, whoa, this guy can talk people into
seeing believing that there's high stakes in his match. He's
a great communicator, and he was good in the ring,
and he had good size. I still, you know, I
don't think aw should hire every cast off, but Bronson
Reid is someone who I think is ready made to
drop into that roster too, And that that surprised me.
I don't know if there's some you know, if he
just said something wrong, or Vince saw one snippet of
one of his matches and just drew a much larger
opinion than he should have. But was he the big
surprise for you? And do you have any theories on
why it happened?
Speaker 2: He was the big surprise, you know, working those main
event in dark matches ahead of Ron SmackDown, it seemed.
And then he drops the North American title. Everything pointed
to okay, this guy's being called up, good for him,
and then they hissed outright release him. So yeah, I
don't know what triggered that. It could be as simple
as Vince going, Wow, We've already got a guy who
looks like Otis, and we have Otis. We don't need
another guy that figure who knows with him.
Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, Just a quick note here. This is
the Wade Keller Pro Wrestling Podcast, our Tuesday flagship edition
for August tenth, twenty twenty one. I'm Wade Keller, the editor, publisher,
founder of the long running Pro Wrestling Torch weekly newsletter.
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Torch dot com slash go viip all right. The other
voice you hear on today's way Keller Prosing podcast is
Jason Powell from the Prosing Boom podcast and the very
popular Pro Wrestling dot Net website that I visit at
least two or three times a day to keep up
on not only the news but also what his excellent
writers have to say about what's going on in wrestling,
and every Monday, Wednesday and Friday, I'm always checking out
Jason and Jake Barnett's reports on the TV shows Hope
you are too. Jason is a long time co host
here on the flag Ship. He was on every Tuesday
with me in the early stages of the PW Torch
Live cast era in the early twenty tens or the teens,
I don't know what do we call it? Starting in
like twenty ten. Now he's on roughly every three weeks
as co host. Always great to have him on. He
is a friend dating back to when we were We
met at a WWF wrestling show at the old met
Sports Center in Bloomington, Minnesota. When we were fifteen or
sixteen years old and we've been close friends ever since.
And he worked for The Torch for a while and
now he's running his own website and podcast, and it's
always a pleasure to catch up with him and bounce
ideas off him and get his take and ask him
about current events. And he is very plugged in and
also just one of the most experienced voices covering professional wrestling.
So Jason, great to have you. I want to throw
to you for a plug so people can hear more
from you than just every three weeks. Here on the
way Keller Pro Wrestling podcast, Flakeship Editions.
Speaker 2: Yeah, check out the Pro Wrestling Boom podcast. It is
my free weekly podcast. It's available wherever you get your podcasts.
Just do a search for Pro Wrestling Boom. Could have
interview guests, could have somebody from the wrestling media. You
never quite know what you're going to get from the Boom,
so so you find it. Find the Boom. Find the
Boom easy for me to say and subscribe. The website
is pro wrestling dot Net, updated with live reviews of
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the day. My Raw Hit lists throughout the week as well.
Always something going on at Pro Wrestling dot Net. If
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That is the flagship show. I think you would enjoy it.
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Speaker 1: Thank you Jason, so much to talk about. We're going
to cover a great Wyat's release and Adam Cole situation
in depth. We'll talk SummerSlam and how it's shaping up.
I want to also talk about Cody Rhodes and Malachi
Black and that storyline. Is Hangman Page being bumped out
of a successful storyline and is that doing long term
damage to him or AW or is it a good move.
We have some good emails too, including what stars off
the AW roster would Vince McMahon like to make good
use of giving his approach to promoting wrestlers in that match,
what he values in wrestlers, and who would fit in
well in WWE. Other email questions too. As always, our
email address is Wade Keller Podcast at pw toorch dot com.
You can send questions in any day, all the time
on anything. We find ways to get to them on
mail bag editions, on flagship editions. On occasion if it
doesn't fit, I'll even answer one on the Weadkeller hotline
or bring it up for VIP members. And obviously we
do a mail bag segment on the post shows on Monday,
Wednesday and Friday night, so check that out. Don't forget.
The PWT tox NXT podcast goes up late tonight. Should
be an interesting few weeks of n heading into and
then especially coming out of takeover to see what kind
of changes. Are there people certainly on edge in NXT
from what I've been able to gather about the changes
and the dynamic with Triple H and Vince McMahon and
the main roster and NXT and you know, Vince putting
NXT in their place in terms of where they are
in terms of importance. And we'll talk more about that
as a show goes on here. So anyway, let's let's
get back to it and including some emails here. Your
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we got a couple of email questions on this, actually
I think one, but it's the same guy twice. Jeff
Pollard from Lisa Louisiana said, with all the changes coming
to NXT, what is Triple H's something now that he's
lost political power, do you see him trying to make
the best of it? Or is it conceivable he could
even leave WWE? And then he added, with the changes
coming to XT, could that cause USA to drop the
show from its lineup considering the falling ratings? And if so,
would it end up on Peacock? So, I mean, I
do want to push back on falling ratings because the
last two weeks we're just from sci Fi when they
got primpted to a smaller network up against the Alantics. So,
you know, we'll see how they recover starting this week,
and if there's not major changes between now and takeover,
we'll have a chance to see what the rebound is.
Like I said, their ratings, they went up for two
to four weeks, had pretty solid increase on Tuesdays with
aw's not as competition, and now they've settled very close
to where they were the last you know, month and
a half, to where they were the month and a
half before moving. So they just sort of had their
core audience. They weren't growing. They fell from, you know,
the peak at the end, you know, pre pandemic, when
they were doing better numbers. But I just want to
you know, factually speaking, it's not like there was some
some nose dive in viewership the last ten weeks that
would that would explain this.
Speaker 2: You know, they didn't. In fairness, they didn't get the
big bump when they moved to Tuesdays. It wasn't like
everyone who was washing both shows. It wasn't like even
three quarters of those people decided, Okay, now we're going
to watch NXT. I did think they would get a
better bump than they did when they moved nights.
Speaker 1: You know, it's pretty remarkable the jump that AW got.
They did six hundred and eight eight thousand viewers their
last Wednesday night, and then they jumped to one point
two million the next week. I mean, they gained five
hundred some thousand viewers and NXT even if I take
the lowest number, lowest recent number of just under six
hundred thousand back on March seventeenth, the high point then
on April twentieth was eight forty one, so they came
about two hundred and forty thousand viewers compared to a
much bigger increase for a WAW had the advantage of
being on Wednesday night still, and I think a lot
of people tuned in for NXT that first week and
then it dropped under nine hundred thousand, you know, two
of the next four weeks after that, so AW got
a bigger bump. NXT did not. And I just think
it shows to a degree, I think we're seeing wrestling
fans have only so much time to watch wrestling, and
they're picking their favorite. And we talked about this with
Josh last night, the on site correspondent, that it appears
that even in WWE crowds, there aren't a lot of
ew T shirts and that surprised me at Target Center
a week and a half ago. There's gonna be people
who like both, and they're gonna want to go to
b show and show off their AW shirt that they're
you know, you know, I'm here, but I've got a favorite,
or you know, there's this other brand that you should
pay attention to. Whatever reason people would do that, and
there just wasn't much of it from what I saw,
and I was paying attention. I just think people are
picking their show, and some are watching you know, five shows,
including Impact or ROH or Nude Ban, but most people
are just kind of picking one or two that are
their favorites and and it's it's splintering the audience a bit.
And NXT just didn't grab AW fans and convince them
to add a second night or an additional night of
viewing to their schedule. And part of that falls on
NXT and you know, doing more comedy stuff with you know,
Robert Stone and Eddie Hartwell and Dexter Loomis, it just
became kind of a sketch comedy show a little bit
more than it had been before. And I don't think
they had enough serious stuff that was over to make
up for it. And you know, I think Karen Cross
was kind of weak as a kind of a centerpiece
act getting pushed. I don't think AW fans were particularly
excited about him, So, you know, I do do think
some of that falls on the decisions that Triple and
Shawn Michaels and company made.
Speaker 2: Oh for sure. Yeah, I mean Kushita, talented guy, hasn't
meant anything in n XT. The people they've brought over
from the UK, by and large, grizzled young veterans, imperium,
very dry. You know, there's just they're just not clicking
the way they once did. And it's there's some really
talented people there that I just mentioned, but and they
have their fans, but I just don't think they've done
anything with these people that really make people feel like
they have to see them. And there's those types all
over the show right now. Roder Extra, this whole diamond
mind thing. I mean, forget that they got rid of
Tyler Rust. I think look d away from the start.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think in fairness again, if I'm kind of
thinking what would push what pushback would people in NXT
have to our conversation so far, I think one of
the things they would say is we're stuck at Capital
Wrestling Center, which worked well in the pandemic, and they
had fans before anyone else, did you know, those in
those plexiglass pods. And you know, I applaud them for
having you know, the mask having everyone wearing masks still,
you know, with everything going on in Florida. But nevertheless,
it was sort of an advantage, but not a big one,
especially when you look at Daily's place and what aw
was able to do with that venue. That outdoor venue
and having an increasing number of fans spread out there.
But you know, it was different than Thundered Home. It
wasn't as big in terms of the scale and scope
of being in a bigger arena, but it felt intimateting.
You had actual organic crowd response that said they're still there.
They didn't get the bump from getting back in front
of live fans. But even more so, it's just hard
to create stars when you're not in a big arena
full of people reacting to them. I think back adjacent
to the T and a trip to the UK and
how much bigger of a star everybody felt when they
would be in that building and you had masses of
fans reacting to them. It made me look differently at
the roster At that time. I was like, wow, it
makes such a difference performing in a larger venue with
that many fans. And NXT takeovers also just were like, whoa,
this product's way more over than this hidden you know
this this hidden gem on dew to Be network. That's
a niche when you have you know, ten thousand people
in a major arena or more going crazy for the
product and the wrestlers. It made everyone seem like big stars,
and NXT wrestlers haven't had that benefit of and especially
in contrast now with AW taking away a lot of
their niche. So if you're Hunter, you're saying, wait a second.
You know, if we could tour when we had momentum
and build on that, we could have had a whole
new crop of stars ready for you. But it's hard
to create stars, like it's hard for GRIZ with young
veterans to seem like big stars when we've seen only
one hundred and forty people reacting to them any given week.
Speaker 2: Well, and they keep having them basically do the same
micro stick every single week, even as Zach Gibson's a
really good talker. So yeah, it's you're right. I mean,
being in that venue is part of the album for them.
But again it's is it because USA didn't give them
enough money to really make it financially solvent to go
on the road. And I'm guessing no, because I would
think that if USA had given them a big chunk
of change, they'd be asking, why aren't you going on
the road? Yeah?
Speaker 1: Yeah, so do you expect I know, you know, the
reports are you know, let's lean on bresslers under thirty
and who are bigger? Do you think that's going to
show up quickly or is that more of like an
eighteen month game plan or are we going to see
a bunch of green guys who are lifting weights and
taking bumps in the performance center suddenly show up on
TV as sort of like just throw everything against the
wall and Vincent, man, let's see if this will make
you happy.
Speaker 2: So here's been my issue. I actually wrote about this
a few weeks ago, praising aw or not caring about
the size of the talent they've gotten to Derby Allen
jungle Boy. You know, there's a number of smaller people
that were new to the scene that they've established that
if they had gone to WWE, Hey, they probably would
have gotten over fined in the n XT, but that
would have been the end for them. And WWE has
this size fetish to this day. And if there were
a lot of people out there that Paulavek and his
crew were missing out on, if they're scouting was missing
out on all these big giants at Vince Loves or
even just you know six whatever and above, okay, then
I would be more likely to point the finger at
scouting and Paul of thatk going, how did you miss
on all these people? Where are they? Who are these
Wardlow who else?
Speaker 1: Yeah? I don't know, they're not out there.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but yeah, of course I'm missing some. I'm not
saying there's none, but it's it's the business has shrunk,
the average size of wrestlers has shrunk, and Vince just
doesn't want to wrap his mind around that. And so yeah,
you can bring it all these green people and they
probably will have to and it can repeat itself where oh,
look at the size of that guy. They'll call him
up to the main roster too soon, they'll be green.
They'll you know, most of them will flame out because
of that.
Speaker 1: I think we're going to find out if Adam Cole
goes to AW. He's the perfect test case of a
guy who has everything accept size. He aj Styles is
bigger than Adam Cole. Daniel Bryant is bigger and thicker
and broader shoulder than Adam Cole. Adam Cole is is
is a test case of this immensely talented in ring worker.
He carries himself like a star. He jumps off the
screen as somebody who you want, who commands your attention,
and deserves your attention, and he can deliver in the ring,
but he's got relatively narrow shoulders and he's I've stood
next to him, he's really really small for a main
event wrestler in AW. It's perfect territory for that not
to matter because AW and part of what what AW
has succeeded with with the mix of the size of
the talent, that that because Cody is a big guy
in this environment. John Moxley is a pretty big guy
in this environment relative to everybody else. And you know,
Paul Hayman showed you can make Mike Alstom look like
a giant even though he's not relative to to a
bunch of you know, saboos, and and he grows and
the smaller wrestlers that he pushed over the years. So
so I'm I'm curious how Adam Cole thrives if he
signs with AW. By the way, quick answer, do you
think you will?
Speaker 2: I hope so for on multiple levels.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So if he does, we're gonna find out for real, Like,
is there this massive audience that's like we don't care
at all about size?
Speaker 2: I mean, like I mean to a point, they don't
look at Derby look at Jungle Boy, well.
Speaker 1: Right, but they're part of them, They're part of the mix,
and Darby isn't the centerpiece, headline pay per view act.
I mean, I'm pushing back a little bit because I
think that there's a segment of the progressing audience that
absolutely doesn't care about size. But I think that if
you have size, there's a big part of the audience
that does, whether they want to admit it or if
they think about it. And they're the people who are
going to these WB shows filling up these buildings with
twelve fourteen thousand people. Yes, they love ring mysterio, but
they also are going to see larger than life figures
in a literal sense in some cases, or at least
a mix in a variety. I think NXD started to
look too much like two five Live. But they didn't
have the right guys either. Kyle Riley turned out not
to be a He didn't have the overall charisma and
character to be a top centerpiece babyface. It just didn't click.
Where Darby Allen that presented poor I don't know, does
he what could he do?
Speaker 2: I think they kind of screwed things up from the
start when all of a sudden, he comes in as
cool Kyle wearing the goofy, and I'm saying, said, that's
how he dresses outside, and that's good for him, But
on television, be more of an everyman. Be in a
guy goes to the MMA gym and show that off,
and eventually they did. But I think some damage was
done there, and I just don't feel like you'll leave
that guy out in the ring to have these verbal
back and forth. So I think you just need to
be a little more in particular about how you present him.
Take a little more, just work harder to kind of
as always, accentuate the positives and hide those weaknesses.
Speaker 3: Hey everyone, longtime PW Torch commist Sean radikin here to
let you know I've rebamped and renewed the Ratticant Worldwide
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Then I bring on a special guest for the second
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Speaker 1: I think AW with mjf who I don't think he's
not big, but he's not you know, Darby or Jungle
Boy small, But I think AW has smaller wrestlers who
know who they are and fans instantly know who they are,
and there's just it's it's plug and play, you know,
I mean, and I just with Kyle of Radley, it's like, yeah,
don't do that, we need to do this, maybe this
will work. It feels like more of a struggle. And
so I just think AW has done a better job
finding distinct personalities and frankly, just have this huge roster
full of people and whoever sort of catches fire a
little bit, they can put them on TV and then
let other people develop off to the side on dark
on YouTube, and that helps where do to B. It's like,
we're gonna be a lean, mean machine. We're only gonna
bring people in who we know we're gonna work, or
we'll keep a few people around to do twenty four
to seven comedy. And so I'm winding back to my
point is I don't think I'm not an advocate for
Wwe just get not having some semblance and wanting a
variety of body types and heights, including looking for people
who are Roman Reigns esque, where there's just this presence
that says star. But that's why I'm curious. I'm open,
really open to this, and I know Aw's chasing a
different audience in WWB, So it doesn't prove everything because
maybe W's niche is going to be the people who
look for that larger than life figure literally speaking, who
has a presence and clearly is well over six feet
tall and broad shouldered and all that, and that that's
part of the package that vinsic Man is selling, and
there's an audience for that. In aw is like, hey,
we're not anti that, that's fine, do that. We think
there's money to be made over here with where we're
not just in search of the next wrestler who's got
that level of stature were we have an audience, it's
buying into something else. And I think, like my only
pushback is I think there's room for both, and I
think both are legitimate approaches to take. Both can be
done well or poorly. And that gets more into the nuance.
But I'm not into the Oh, you know, Vincent Mann
isn't keeping up with things, and there's only one way
to do it, and the right way now, and the
only way now is to push small guys who are talented.
It's like, I don't have a problem with him investing
money in time and going let's find the next Roman reigns,
Let's find the next John Cena. That's worked well for
my formula. I don't think that's worthy of or that
he deserves ridicule for having philosophically that, as long as
he's willing to go with others who are the best
option instead of an inferior, bigger option, if that person
who's best at that moment isn't big. But I'm not
against him saying. I just I want seeing the Rains
tights to be my centerpiece. I believe that my audience
wants that.
Speaker 2: If they were out there, I'd say great. But again,
where are these people? We have seven hundred matches on
dark in elevation. Are you seeing a lot of them there?
I mean, I just I don't know where these people are.
And they took you know, how long did it take
him to find somebody? After John Cena, Roman Rains came
along and they got him. But I mean, they're always
looking for that next big thing, and that's great. I
have nothing against you know. I think if Tony Khan
had his way, if the next Roman reigns came along
or something to the aw I don't think he'd be
up too tall for us. There wouldn't be that. But
I don't think. I think it's all shape sin size
is in AEW where I think in WWE there's still
the stigma. You only get so far. And I mean,
look at how much they fought the daniel'brian thing. I mean,
it was just handed to them, and they fought and
fought and fought. And I do want to back up
to Adam Cole because I'm sure there's people going, why
do you hope that he's signing one? Because I don't
have a dog in this fight. But for his sake,
there's nothing left for him to do in next t
I just I firmly believe that I've said it for
a long time. If this were the territory days, it's
time to leave the territory. If they bring him to
the band roster, there's no reason to have any faith
that they're going to do right by him long term.
They may do right out of the gate, try to
make it so I'll see, look, everything's great. They may
try to use him as an example, but I just
long term don't believe it. If he gets a huge
payday for it, right time, right place. But they've had
all this time to call him up, they didn't, and
so Vince McMahon can do a song and dance and
act like he's got all these great plans for him
now and pay him and if Cole takes it and
again cash is in good for him. But I just
think the grass is greener for him. On the other
side it creatively, I think he would be happier. I
think that he would get far more opportunities. Yeah, I
mean to me, it's just like it's a no brainer
unless it's you know, they make you an offer you
can't refuse, And.
Speaker 1: I don't know on the main roster with WWE, who
Vince McMann if do you push Adam Cole as an
undersized babyface who's got not He doesn't have the underdog
appeal of Daniel Bryan. He's He's a guy who is
an alpha in every way in the way he presents himself.
So who are the dream opponents? If he's an undersized
alfa babyface and as a heel, it almost doesn't work
because he's going to be fighting what Drew McIntyre or
I mean, like he.
Speaker 2: Don't think it makes sense for them to sign him.
I don't think they would be a triple age may
want to keep him because they obviously have a good
relationship him and on Michael's as well. Yep. But for
Vince McMahon, I think this is just well, you know
Punk's gonna show up, Brian maybe joining them. We got
to make a we got to show that we're in
the game here. I think that's all this signing is.
I don't think in a different time and circumstances and
think Vince Biler will let him.
Speaker 1: Go because if I look at the roster, I think, okay,
if Cole is a face or a heel, who are
opponents that match up well that we'd look forward to
him against that would be worthy of him. And if
they could get Kevin owenstrong, obviously he would be great.
Riddle is somebody who there's a lot of positives there
in terms of matching up against the heel Adam Cole,
and size wise that can work out. Damian Priest as
a baby face, he'd be bigger, but baby face Priest
against the heel Cole, I think there's some you could
make some money and headline of pay per view with that.
Drew McIntyre is a little tougher unless Cole's a baby
face intruits to heel, which I think you could probably
pull out.
Speaker 2: They avoided that next on purpose.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you know angel as if they had not
destroyed you know, not destroyed but define him down and
had they protected him in a way that certainly a
W would have if they had him, that would have
worked out. Hel Randy orton babyface Adam Cole, that can work,
shamous as a heel against Cole, A baby face coal
that can work? Did I say Seth, Biggie Cizarro, Apollo Cruz,
you know, King Corbin, maybe Sammy's Zain if he you know,
as as a as a stepping stone at the top, perhaps,
I mean there's some, there's some, but everybody who Cole
is against. It's like there is a little astiss like well,
but he has to be the face or it won't work,
or they need to build this guy up a little
bit better for it to be worth you know, worth it,
like get Kevin owenstrong again for the coal few to
feel main event. But it's not like there's nothing there
for him, Like if if we hear his signs of
w B and Vince really fell in love with a guy,
I mean, I'm along for the ride, I'm interested, but
I'm like you, I think AW is incredibly fertile ground
for him.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's for WWE. You're looking to cut costs, So
why are you signing a guy that you're getting rid
of a bunch of people in XT because they're not
a certain size. Eventually, just be plugging his nose the
whole time. He may push him again to prove some
point or to make it seem like, oh no, we
look at us. We'll push smaller guys. But it's not
just there's nothing that can be said that's going to
make me believe that he is sincere about this and
long term wants to push this guy to the moon.
I just and so that's why I say, like, you know,
if you're Adam Cole, if you can get the money,
take it, but otherwise get the hell out of there.
I just I think it's more than time. They've had
every opportunity to bring him up to the main roster
they didn't. And there's a reason.
Speaker 1: Do you know if Kevin Oldins and Adam Cole are close?
Speaker 2: I do not.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I was trying to think of like if I
if I had heard of them bonding at all, you
know in ROH, I believe the last time when I
saw it him Cole and stood next to a person.
I think there was the same show where Kevin Olins
was on his way out.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was at that show, and I just don't
I don't remember a lot I was reading. You know,
it was always the Cole and o'reiley and you know,
kind of the guys that he ended up an NXT
with back in those day. I'm sure there were others,
but those are the names that kind of stood out
to me. Was like being his buddies.
Speaker 1: But they certainly overlapped because I remember that was where
Kevin Steen, Kevin Owens was gonna go to the merch
table after the show ended for some autographs and some merch,
and he asked, you know, I don't want to sit
there unless there's people in the line. Like he didn't
want to be He didn't want the possibility on his
way to w WE that he'd be sitting at a
table with nobody there and people would take pictures like that.
He was cognizant of how bad that would look and
the optics, you know, can paint a bad picture. So
it was interesting, you know, behind the curtain, and I
was literally beyond the curtain when he when he's telling
someone that, he's like, I'm not going out there and
tell the announced I'm gonna be there, and there's a
line there. I'm not just gonna sit there like a
dope if people don't know I'm going out there. So
but my point in all that is Kevin Owens chose,
and this is pre AW chose to sign, you know,
an extension with w W and take the money, you know,
for better for worse artistically, and Cale I just think
has more he wants to accomplish, but he also has
obviously AW has a legit, big money alternative that seems
like a stable chance to take where chaote and have that.
But I was thinking, you know, it's Kevin Owens offer
Cole some advice, you know, pro worcon. You know that
you're gonna be miserable. I know you you need to
go to a W or man. The money's good and
this is a business and you're gonna be fine and
you're not gonna end up super beat up. You know,
we can work a certain style. You can stand out
working at sixty five percent of which you would have
to do in AAW to stand out with that talented crew,
you know whatever, So I'd be curious, it'd be interesting
we have fly on the wall for those two if
they were having a conversation.
Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely. And by the way, a proof of the
whole idea that you know, they're just going to pull
people before they're ready for NXT if they do bring
in a bunch of people that are of a certain size.
Look at Honesty Jones. This guy damn near dropped somebody
on their head in the first breakout tournament match that
he had and ever since anything, we're in the same
dark matches and main event matches that they had. Bronson readworking.
I mean, and this guy may turn out to be
a big star, don't get me wrong, but he's not
ready and they're acting like he is already.
Speaker 1: Yes, yep, it's next level coverage that you come to
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not hours at a time, and settle in for high
quality PW Torch branded wrestling coverage. All right, let's uh,
let's shift I just brought up ATAW but let's shift
to the CM Punk. Uh the p I don't I
don't know how to qualify it. You know, it's not
officially announced, but you know it's happening and the United
Center sellout. I am curious if is there any intel
on punk schedule and in if if he's just all
in he's going to be a weekly fixture for years,
or he's going to be more I'm going to jump,
you know, drop in for a couple months and then
you know, step away and then I'll come back and
be you know, a big star later. Have we ruled
that out as as what his deal.
Speaker 2: Is going to be? So my guess more than anything.
I mean, I've heard rich and peace, but I think
it seems like everybody in the industry is a story
to tell about this, whether they know or not. But
I think it's going to be more limited. It may
be spurts, you know, where it seems like he's around
for a while and then he just disappears. For a
little bit, and you know that kind of a thing.
But yeah, I do. I suspect that it's going to
be more big matches. Then you know, he's there week
in and week out and working on dark and all.
Speaker 1: That, and I don't I think that's good. I mean,
I think at forty two years old, with this super
talented crew, with roster depth, using pung, I mean, I'm
not if he wants to come every week, I'm not
gonna say no, But I think there's something to be
said for having a special attraction who shows up in whatever.
Whatever he's involved in is a big deal, and he
doesn't have to rotate down the card. I think he's
at a stature where he can do that. It would
be a little ironic. I'm sure we can talk about
the differences, but you know, for him to pop in
and get big money and quote knock someone else out
of a papermain event who works every week, you know,
it's it's a little rich for punk to defend that,
but thus is the reality of things.
Speaker 2: It's like John Cena, I want him to go all
heel on that when the time is right, Oh that
could He's going to be a heel just totally lean
into that.
Speaker 1: And have fun with it, because you know, John Cena's admitted, yeah,
I was totally wrong to say, you know, Rocklift left
left the family and he shouldn't have and all that.
I'm like, John, the only reason you're saying that, it's
because you're never going to get the movie offers rock
is going to get. But if you do, or it's
very unlikely you will, but if you do, you're in
the same thing he did. And John's like, yeah, yeah,
I see.
Speaker 2: Yes, Okay, how much of that it. I applaud him
for just coming out and saying, yeah, you know what's
wrong about that. But do you think that he knew
back then and he just was scoring points with the company?
Speaker 1: Oh oh for sure? I think, well, yeah, okay, no,
for sure, that's a possibility. But it's also possible so
you was so drinking the kool aid, and so in
that pro WB environment, I think. I mean, like, I'm
thinking now about all the people who've been around John
and no John and and talk about you know, his approach,
and to me, as I'm thinking about it, feels like
a collage of people who think he was just genuinely
drinking the kool aid and all in and it's it's
an equal mix of people going, no, he's super savvy
and he was playing Vince and he was doing what
was best for his career. I don't think there's a consensus,
in other words, on whether when he was saying that
it was to kiss ass with Vince and seem like
a company guy but deeped down and he knew better,
or if he just didn't know any better, like it
was just sort of a naive thing where he was
buying what the people were mumbling at, you know, at
after the matches at night. Oh rock you know, we
called him and we made him and we gave him
this chance. And remember Rocky my v and the and
the hair and all that, and the fans booing look
what we turned helped turn him into. And now he
won't he won't return our calls quickly. And g and
Cina might have been yeah, screw screw him, you know,
like it could have been that too. You know, he's
seen it was young and impressionable, and it might have
taken living life and seeing the realities of life outside
the dea to be bubble that he now admits exists
and is, you know, pretty cool. In lucrative. It might
have taken that for him to realize it. So it's
an interesting question. I don't know if we'll ever get
a clear answer on it because Scena's just you know,
a pretty low a low drama guy when it comes
to creating, you know, being part of controversies and and
then you know, speaking out and being you know, he's
just he's not doing long form interviews that don't feel
Jeff Jared esque, you know, where it's like everything kind
of filters through the PR agent that lived in his head.
Speaker 2: Yes, he's gotten a lot better. I got to say,
senor or Jeff Jeff was on his podcast. Oh no,
it shocked me because when that podcast was announced, I'm like,
oh my god, good luck. You know, you can't get
anything out of the guy.
Speaker 1: And for fairness, i'm talking about Jeff chair at the
Top Star. When you know, when when he was in
TNA and he was an executive, everything he said felt
like it ran through the PR agent. But I know
Jeff well enough and I've talked to him enough to
know there's this other guy who would be very engaging
on a podcast. So I'm glad, you know, I want
to clarify that. I mean more of the public figure
running a company or being a headliner. Now, Jeff's like
whatever I'm gonna be, I'm gonna just you know, loosen
loosen up and talk and you know, he I think that,
you know, I know that's in him. But I also
know even when I would have conversations with him, I
always felt like, Okay, am I going to get to
that next layer? Or is this going to be you know,
he's watching what he says because he's in that mode,
and I'm it's it's nice to get to him. I'm
sure Jeff likes being at a point rate and have
to filter everything through the internal PR agent.
Speaker 2: Speaking of internal PR agents, Yeah, next week, the Paul
of that media call can't win.
Speaker 1: Oh god, oh man. Yeah, I'm I'm just imagining. I mean,
he he does well, but I don't know. But I
don't come out of it. And it's hard to feel. So,
you know, people, whenever you start feeling it's sort of
like Baron Corbyn, whenever you start feeling sorry for him,
someone will bring up something like, oh, that's right, I
don't feel sad for him at all. I can't let
myself do that. Because you know, he's got a history
of there's there's plenty of things historically where you're like, eh,
I don't don't feel sympathy for this guy. But when
he's on those conference calls, I mean there is like
he's just so heavy to tiptoe and try to manage
the situation. And then there's a whole thing that I mean,
he had such a small window of being the ardent fan,
save your favorite, and he never really got to get
to that next level, and then Tony Khan comes in
and ruins everything.
Speaker 2: I give a Levec a lot of credit. I've hit
that guy questions and I've never received a follow up
call from wwep R scolding me. There's never been anything
where I've been, you know, not invited to a future call.
I can't say that about other companies that you know,
sometimes you just not that I've had follow up calls
or anything. But there are certain things you don't get
invited to where it's never been an issue. No matter
what I've asked that guy, I keep getting invites. I
give them credit for that.
Speaker 1: I think that's definitely worth pointing out, and that is
a very good attribute. And you know, people grow up
and people change, you know, and Paulovek was around, you know,
Paul and Nash and Waltman, and there was sort of
like there was sort of he was always different than them,
and people like, why is he with them? He doesn't drink,
he doesn't you know, party and all that. But there
was something there, and it in some ways brought out
the worst of his self preservation, self promotion, cutthroat, you know,
the whole Coganin attitude. You know, if you don't do
it to someone, they're going to do it to you.
It's doggy dog. And he had that. But he also
had the level of dedication and fortitude and professionalism of
being the guy who's like, oh, you're doing a video
on me, I'll take time out of my day. I
want to go sit there and help you with it
and give and you know, give it final approval. He
would be there for the work where other people were
just taking an app or doing whatever they did.
Speaker 2: So s you know.
Speaker 1: So the other that part of him that loves professional
wrestling and wants to just work really hard at it,
along with becoming a guy in his forties and now
in his fifties, has matured. You know, I think there
is a level of maturity where that if it's sort
of like with Dusty, he became this beloved figure with
ardent fans because all these young wrestlers from the NDY
scene talked about how grea Dusty was to work with.
But you go back fifteen twenty years or twenty five
or thirty years, especially in people the same type of
fan of that erasaw Dusty as the number one villain.
Undertaker was a number one villain, and you know, late nineties,
early two thousands among hardcore fans, and now the hardcore
fans would of them wouldn't relate at all to that
unless they've really re educated themselves reading back issues of
The Torch for instance, or you know, there's not a
lot of podcast history there, but you know the way
history has been written, you think he was this beloved
hardcore hero having these great WrestleMania matches with the Streak,
and no, he was the political guy, dragging down cards
and cutthroat beyond the scenes. So people change and there
and how people perceive them changes, And I think with Hunter,
you know, he worked really hard to do that, and
I think there was a lot of sincerity, But I
also think there was a little bit of this is
what I need to do to get to get to
where I want to go to. And I see some
of that, not in an egregious, off putting way, but
in a clear eyed I see what this is typeway.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know, good people change too. Let's point
that out because there are some people that haven't changed
a bit.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, well the name of Jason. Let's give me
your top twenty.
Speaker 2: List, no comment?
Speaker 1: All right?
Speaker 2: Searching for more great pro wrestling talk, then join me.
Jason Power host them the three weekly Pro Wrestling Boom Podcast.
Each week, he'll hear the latest news and analysis for
me and my team at Pro Wrestling Dot Need along
with other pro wrestling media members. Plus, the Pro Wrestling
Boom Podcast features long form interviews with notable names in
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PW boom dot com. Once again, that's PW boom dot com.
Speaker 1: So Brian Danielson, Cumpunk, Malachi Black, Andrade Adam Cole. This
is like a big deal for AW. I mean, going
into the fall season. I don't, but do you think
that they have. It's like if you have a house
and you have a living room, a family room, a bedroom,
and an office and you have, you know, five televisions
and someone says, here's five more TVs. It doesn't make
your life better. You have and they're all you know,
they're all they're all good TVs. They're all four K.
They're all four K TVs and they're good. You're like,
unless you can sell them, Like, I don't what am
I gonna do with these? They're just gonna sit in
the garage, like I don't have any more place to
put them. My satisfaction that I get in the joy
I get from televisions is maxed out. There's just I've
got one in every place I could want one. I
don't want five more TV's. It's just a hassle. Are
we at that point with aw Like they have the
talent they need, they have enough. There's not even adding
these five guys. It's it's in that positive, But is
it as much of a positive as it would be
if they actually were hurting for talent and weren't underutilizing
some names? And could this potentially get in the way
of some wrestlers who otherwise would would get the attention
to be homegrown stars? You know, can it derail Hangman
Page a little bit? Or Max Caster's probably not the
best example this month, but you know, Max Castro type,
somebody's showing some personality, some potential, some ring necumen getting
a rate. Does this push them away in a way
that could be negative? I'm just trying to be throw here, Jason,
because obviously the the obvious take is this is great
and they're going to grow. But is every fan who
wants to see Brian Danielson and see on Punk and
Malachi Black did they already have them?
Speaker 2: Like?
Speaker 1: I don't think there's many fans out there going Kenny
o'megha and the Bucks and Darby Allen and Joungo Boy
and MGF and christ Jericha. I don't know if that's
quite enough for me. Oh Ciampunk, now you got me? Like,
who is that person?
Speaker 2: I think there's gonna be some crossover type. There's gonna
be some lapsed fans that I got jam Punk's back
that kind of thing. Yeah, I just don't we don't
know what the number is and it's going to be
an attention grab or for him with a question. It
should get there, you know, I know it's a second week,
but it should get a lot of eyeballs on Rampage
kind of put that on the map. I like that
at SummerSlam weekend when they're doing that, when there's a
lot of people thinking about wrestling anyway. And so I mean,
if they were advertising for Rampage on you know, in
my market, on a direct TV last night, and so
imagine if they can do that, you can buy local
ads for SmackDown if they want to just come right
out and announced that Seampunk is going to be there
or even whatever, you know, even if you don't want
to announce it that night. In advance, we'll see if
they do that or not. The next time he's on
Dynamite brand page whatever, and you can start buying those
local ads, you know, promoting him along with the obvious
word of mouth. That's a big thing, I think, I
really do. I can't tell you what the number is
going to be with you know, how big of an
increase is this, But to get to the bigger picture, yeah,
there are going to be people that we're doing fine
on the undercard and looked like they were going to
start moving up. Maybe that no, they're sorry, there's not room,
or there's going to be people that were brought in
with that were long term projects that maybe there's they
just don't have use for them anymore. I mean, this
is a business and you can't keep everybody, and so
I think there are going to be some people that
are going to be It's it's only a matter of time,
even think before they can before they have to start
making some moves. I would think that there's going to
have to be some It doesn't have to be cuts.
You know, cuts sound so bad. You know, there's such
a stigma with it. But you can let contracts expire.
You know, it's okay, and maybe we'll see.
Speaker 4: Some of that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know what, it's ok I know, you
know sometimes Twitter can seem like the whole world. But
and when people react to cuts, and I know, you know,
during the beginning of the pandemic, you know, if you
had the financial means to not cut somebody loose during
that time, you know, be decent and don't do it.
Speaker 2: But you don't.
Speaker 1: It's not a job for life. If you become a wrestler,
and there's gonna be if you want anyone new to
ever get a job who deserves it. You have to
cut wrestlers. Uh, there have to be cutbacks. You have
to you know, cut people, fire people, lay people off,
whatever it is, just continue using them. That has to happen.
I don't get all up in arms over every wrestler
who's worked hard and has talent that gets cut. That's
just life. That's business. This isn't you know it? Just
like sometimes I just the reaction, it's like, oh my god,
how could they do this? And all that. It's like,
it's just that's how the world works. Like you don't
just because you work hard and training to be a
wrestler and get a contract doesn't mean you're guaranteed a
job for life. And a lot of times there's reasons
we don't know about that. People get cut because they're
complete assholes to every server, and management's like, first chance
we get, we're cutting this guy no matter how talented
he is in the ring, no matter how many fans
pop for him. He's a complete jerk, and we don't
want that kind of person polluting our culture. He can
be a Debbie downer in the locker room and just
drags everybody down. He can be abusive to the women
he sleeps with and the like. There's things. My point is,
stuff like that does happen. I hear stories like that,
and sometimes wrestlers are cut for those reasons. Other times
are cut for entirely wrong reasons or petty reasons or
close minded reasons, but we don't know. And I so
my point in all that is, you know, W has
a right to cut people. AW eventually has a right
to let people go, and that's part of keeping things fresh.
And it's the prerogative of the promoters. And if the
rest of is talent, as Brunts and read says, for
every door their closes, many others are open and now
I just have to choose the best one. And that's
the right attitude to have. And if you're talented, you
know there's enough promoters out there looking looking to hire,
and you know not all of them will give you
the kind of money you're gonna get with AWORWE. But
I just I don't know. I feel like I have
to say that because I feel like every time there's cutbacks,
people just think it's this national tragedy and crime against
you know, ressel's rights to hold their jobs forever.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, it's the entertainment industry and there's a
lot of really talented actors out there that can't get work.
That's just the way it is, you know, and it's unfortunate.
I don't mean to downplay it. Feel bad for people
anyone that loses their job when they didn't do anything
to trigger their being fired or released in these case issues, Hey,
you feel bad for them, but yeah, it's part of life.
It's part of the industry that they chose, Jason.
Speaker 1: Since we're recording on Tuesday, it's all for all time sake.
I'll break in with raw ratings. They did a one
point three six rating. H that's up from one point
three three and one point three two the the last
two weeks. And the demo rating was pretty steady at
point four nine. It did point five to one in
point four nine the previous two weeks. Young Male Demo
is down a bit in the so anyway, no no
big news there. But they dropped under one point seven
million in the third hour.
Speaker 2: So when we took an averaged one point seven to
nine is inaccurate.
Speaker 1: Just eyeballing the numbers, that looks about right, Yeah, yep,
And it was, and it was pretty rough man and
it was number one on cable.
Speaker 2: So yeah, you know, I mean Love comes in is
you know, no Olympics anymore, and they're down from the
week before when there was Olympics.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'd have to I have to look at the
hour lease. I mean, their cable rating was up, so
you know, it's one of those conflicting information, conflicting stats
depending on how they're measured. But it just seems kind
of like a wash. But yeah, to not have the
Olympics of competition, But what was not I mean, we
off ten years ago. We had talked on the flagship
about Raw for you know, ninety percent of the show
and because SmackDown at times was a throwaway show before
the roster split, and it felt like a b show
and you know, it's pre taped her on a secondary
network compared to USA. But now it's like ro sort
of an afterthought. But last night's Raw Jason was not
a blockbuster show. Randy Orton adds some star power and
people react to him like a star. Randy's not a
top tier draw. He's not a guy who if he's
back on Raw, is gonna pop a rating like John Cena.
He just he's at that next level down, and that's fine.
He's a legacy star, he's a legend, he's all of Famer.
People like him. But you know, twe can put out
word that he's gonna be on a show, I don't
expect that to be a big needle mover, even if
he was away for seven weeks.
Speaker 2: No, And you know, it's not like they did anything
last week to tell you he's going to be there.
They just announced it online the day of the show, right.
I mean the laziness when it comes to these shows
and the way they're presented lately, you canny yesterday they
even have a match advertised. It's just bizarre to me.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and when you watch the show like Annixtido's that
too sometimes and it's because they're gonna do an angle
that leads to the match, and I'm like, okay, you
know that explains it. But then there's other matches who
are like, well, you had to know you're gonna do that, right,
And so sometimes I wonder if they don't put out
matches because they don't want people to think that's the
main event and they won't watch because it's the third
best match, but the top two matches they're gonna are
gonna take place because of events that happened during the show.
And now what if there's not some sort of mindset
of although announce just you know, these three matches that
we know we're gonna have, because no one's gonna want
to know, it's not gonna make a difference anyone tuning in.
Let's leave it a mystery. And I mean there might
be something to be said for that if you can't
actually announce a match with your major stars ahead of
time that you think will actually make a difference.
Speaker 2: I suppose. I mean, I guess when you just keep
giving people the same damn matches every week, you know
you're gonna people are gonna not be wowed when you
tell them they're getting some variation of that again.
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, So as we talk about I don't want
to recap broad at a tow our postal last night,
but I did bring up Randy Orton and I want
to get a couple talking points in from the show.
One is just the Randy Riddle thing is is wwe
do we have to wait and see what they have
in mind? Do we have to take into account he
was gone for seven weeks and maybe they have to
reshuffle some ideas or are they screwing this up or
doing it brilliantly with with Orton being the reluctant partner
who doesn't want to admit that riddle amuses him and
he kind of likes him. And it's true to his
character that he wouldn't just come back and be like, Yeah,
that was fun, let's go back to teaming. Is this
good or are they pushing it because fans are ready
for it to happen and they're waiting too long, or
some other option I had to bring up.
Speaker 2: You know, I think they're doing fine with it. It's
it seemed to be the one thing that people really
cared about on last night's show, just listening to the crowd,
not that you know, they were down on everything, but
it was the one they were genuinely excited about. And
we're behind the idea of those two teaming together. And
I think it is kind of true to the character
that he doesn't just show his cards completely. And I
will feel that way when they inevitably team up to
face styles and almost I think it works in that
even once they do take that match and go for
the tag titles or even if they win the tag titles,
it's Randy Orton, and you know you always got to
be you always have to have your guard up for
all right, what's he gonna do next? You know? So
even if it looks like already really has embraced Riddle, hey,
you never know, because it's it's the viper character.
Speaker 1: Yeah. What do you think of Riddle's trajectory? Is he
defined down as the little buddy who isn't a serious
person or is this part of a pathway and unlikely
and perhaps unnecessary, you know, pathway where you break him
down but then you build them back up again in
a different vision. Is there a chance he actually ends
up becoming kind of a Daniel Brian esque big star
who's top tier, maybe not tippy top, top top, but
a top tier guy like Daniel Brian. Are we on
a path potentially to that?
Speaker 2: Hmm. I don't see it catching fire the way Daniel
Brian did, in part because he you know, the bell
Weather fans that you talk about a lot of them,
right or wrong, you know, with the allegations again and
they've settled it all out of court. You're you know,
there's gonna all the people are gonna be pointing to
that still, not that that's going to affect the masses
per se, but I just don't know if there's gonna
be the ground swell. There's still some hesitancy I think
with people to get on board with this guy, given
his you know, outside the ring reputation, whether it earned
or not. But I feel like as a character, I
hope he has it in to flip the switch. I
you know, the it's a little too cutesye to be
that guy long term, and if he can, if there
is a more serious version of this character when the
time comes, then yeah, you never say never. But I
think he's in a really good place right now.
Speaker 5: Uh.
Speaker 2: That's been encouraging because when they first called him up,
I didn't really I was more optimistic when it came
to Keith Lee than I was for Riddle and it's
gone the other way. And you know, especially with you know,
considering those out of ring issues, you didn't know if
that was going to be something where they're just like,
let's cut bait with this guy. But they've made it work.
I think think the character is childlike and likable at
a certain level. I find them to be a lot
more entertaining when Randy Orton is there, and when he's
not there, that's it starts to lose me.
Speaker 1: And I think the crowd is into you know, Riddle
and Randy in a way that it's encouraging to continue
on with the story. And I think people will be
intrigued even if they you know, team together and win
the tag titles from Styles and Amus at SummerSlam or whenever,
you know, I think they'll be on board for the
for the adventure of of how that goes. And I
think some people just assume Randy will will turn on Riddle.
I don't know what Randy turning on Riddle looks like
if it wasn't what happened last night. But I know
last night was not you know, decisive he'll turn by
Randy against Riddle either, you know what I mean. It's
like it's it's the it's sort of like the Stunner.
It's sort of become, you know, a thing that is
devastating in one context, but a fun little prank in another.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and was there Myron served his purpose last night
just to have that line at the end saying that
he thinks they're together. Right after Randy dropped him with
the RKAO. I think that cleared that had to clear
up some confusion for some viewers.
Speaker 1: What do you think of what they're doing through McIntyre Jason?
Speaker 2: Is this what you do?
Speaker 1: You know, he's not the world champ, he's not in
a top program. Wait till the draft get him some
fresh opponents in the meantime, put him against the heel
that nobody's gonna cheer.
Speaker 2: It's it's ugly, it's I mean, they don't have strong
enough heels to go around. So I get why he's
working with gender on top of being friends with gender.
It's it's not even so much that it's the sword,
the weird promos, which you've gotten better. You know, we
were not getting story time as much anymore, but this
giant sword, and then you do have weak heels that
he's working against from a perception standpoint, and now they
run away. They're the only people on the planet who
fear that Drew McIntyre may lop their heads off with
this sword. They're not a fan at home thinking that
these guys are smart for running away from the guy
with the sword, because people know what WWE is and
so they look silly doing it. And so they're making
the Hall and his crew even worse by having them
run away. I'm not into this, and I get that
everything that killed, all the little WWE touches they're adding,
I think are backfiring.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I'm I'm if I'm Drew McIntyre, I'm eager
for a roster shakeup and be with opponents who have
some uh you know, have some gravitas or you know,
go go heal again. You know, I think, oh, I know,
I know. I think he's a better babyface, but he
needs opponents. I mean, he just he needs good opponents.
He's not He's not the kind of guy where you know,
you can just put them with anyone and he's going
to carry it. I think Rains has sort of reached
that level. John Cena, I think reached that level. I
don't think Drew's at that level as a personality where
it's like, you know, just you can put it almost anyone,
and h Coked had that level. I think Drew is
one notch below that, and that he does need a
pretty equally strong heel opponent for it to feel top shelf.
Whatever he's involved in. Just a reminder you can reach
us at Wade Keller Posts Show at gmail dot com.
If you're interested in contributing to the Flagship or Wade
Keller post Show at gmail dot com. If you're interested
in submitting a question or a topic or even a
rant on the Wade Keller Pro Wrestling post shows, Well,
let's talk about how Summer Slam is shaping up. Jason,
it feels like this is the time of year that
should be the top, top, top story. But you know,
see him Punk and Brad Danielson and we'll probably get
to Bray Wyatt NXT drama. All that's kind of taking
away some of the headlines. But for most pro wrestling
fans in this country, SummerSlam is the top topic on
their mind. And what do you think of the way
the lineup is taking shape in terms of the main
events for both the men and the women. Is this
looking like a pretty strong Summer Slam lineup or piece
together and passable or something else?
Speaker 2: Strong on one and okay on the other. You know,
I think this map down side looks better to me
with the two title matches, But there's only so much
excitement I can muster up for seeing Goldberg and Lashly
and you know, another triple threat. I can't say that
I'm into the nikky ash character as much as others are.
It's just it seems like a strike while the iron
is kind of hot thing to me, and I know
it's just Raw's a mess and it's tough. Did no
matter who comes out of that match with the title,
it's you look ahead going. They haven't built anyone else
up these three, and Shane and I are going to
be doing their thing. They were conspicuous by their appsence
We're after having their little breakup angle on the previous show.
So yeah, I mean, you can always try to build
one of those two up, but otherwise, I mean, who
is it. It's it's just it is kind of tough
to be. You know that the match should be fine,
but coming out of it then what.
Speaker 1: It feels like Bobby Lashley is a better version of
like Alberto Del Rio as the as the SmackDown Champion,
like the Raw feels like the b Brand because Rains
is just so larger than life and successful right now
at at coming across as the alpha of the company,
and he gets to say that if Rains weren't around,
I mean, blashing a VP would seem like a good
surprising pair who rose to the top, but it does
feel a level lower than Rains and then you and
then you get you know, Goldberg is the you know,
fallback veneer of a big match type go to guy now,
but you know people are that excited about him, and
perhaps that's understating the lack of excitement for him. But
the Seena response has been really really positive. Are you
surprised at how the how w B is drawing selling
a lot of tickets to these events and drawing well,
but also getting the kind of response that Vincent Man
would see as validation for some of the decisions that
he's made, especially when it comes to Roman Reigns as
an effective heel that fans are not cheering, and nel
Sena is like the the guy coming back and just
getting near unanimous cheers.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think Bench has a lot of mirages in
front of him, you know, the the big TV deal
if he loses Fox and or doesn't have another potential
big money suitor, the streaming deal is what it is.
They're going to do well there. But then these line
of end numbers, I don't think that in normal times
this wrong product would be drawn nearly as well, I
think people are excited to get back out there, and
that's great, and you know that also, it's not just WWE.
It's easier for me to see aew and SmackDown doing
well compared to Raw, where I'm just like, this is
a painful show to suffer through. It is a little
strange to see so many people going to see this
Monday night mess of a show. That's where I say
it strikes me on the wrong side, especially these numbers
as being a mirage.
Speaker 1: Were you expecting what kind of crowd response were you
anticipating for seeing it coming back?
Speaker 2: I can't say that I'm stunned. I didn't put a
lot of thought into it. But absence makes the heart
grow fonder, And you know, I mean there was I
guess a little concern when he the last time he
was in the news was for all the wrong reasons
with the whole kissing ass of China thing, and I
didn't know if they're going to be a little bit
of backlash over that, because I mean, that wasn't just
wrestling circles. I mean I was hearing about that just
listening to morning radio. You know, in the local market.
People were grumbling about that one, So that one struck
a nerve with some people. But yeah, with wrestling fans, John,
I'm sure there's some of those people out there who
are still bothered by it. But you know, when you
bring in the big casual audiences, which I think is
what they're doing by and large for these you know,
raw and SmackDown shows, and with that, there's gonna be
some hardcores in the mix too, but you know they're
gonna be more seen of friendly. But again, you know,
he's been gone for a while. It's fun to see
him back. You don't have all the baggage of him
holding the championship and people, you know, being anxious to
move on to the next big thing. You know, anytime
now we've had enough of John Cena and now it's like, oh,
John Seen is back. This is fun.
Speaker 1: On the women's side of things, Sasha Banks is back
as a heel. I think she's in a good spot
for her personality, her star power. I know there's you know,
and I get the sentiment of she's so popular in
a certain way, she should be a babyface and a centerpiece.
I just don't think she's been a good babyface, and
that has to do with a variety of things. But
she's a really good heel and the Uncle Bella might
be the right babyface opponent for her in a way
that others that Sasha has has been in the mix with.
Hasn't been your take on the rise of bel Air
since WrestleMania and her journey to showing that she belongs
and can that this spot isn't isn't that she the
moment isn't too big for her and the spot is
a good fit for her.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think she's doing a really nice job, and
I think they're doing a nice job with her, and
they're giving her consistent wins on television and she is
for the most part having good, you know, entertaining television matches.
And the character is likable. She has a little bit
of the attitude that Sasha has without being completely unlikable
like Sasha could be a time is there There have
been moments where Bianca's walk that line a little bit.
But Sasha, I just think, Yeah, she's a heel because
it really when you watch her performances, she just plays
it the same both ways. And nobody when they when
they see here as a heel, you don't see people going, man,
she's acting like a babyface. You're going to get defenders
of her when she's when she is a babyface and
she comes off heelish, they will defend it to the end.
But there's a lot of people going, she's a heel
who is slatted as a baby Why doesn't she change things?
And I wish she would have. I really would love
to see just how how big she could be if
she made some tweaks as a babyface and just took
a more traditional approach to that. But I think she
is slaughted properly, and I think it is a really
good feud and it feels big time coming off of
what they did at WrestleMania.
Speaker 1: Does Bianca feel like a generational, transformative centerpiece female star
who in two years is still going to be on top,
but will be an even bigger star in a draw
and a more polished act. Is she John Cena asking
that way where it's like, hey, there might be something
here and let's let's see and let's test the waters
but the upside is huge? Or is she just a
good you know, a good I guess I don't know
who to compare her to more you know what seth
Rollins was was a baby face just good, you know,
good and can fill a spot, but not a huge
difference maker.
Speaker 2: So I think she has the potential to be generational.
But there's a lot of work to be done, you know.
Right now we're still with the main roster in a
lot of ways in the honeymoon phase of her character.
You know what's going to happen when she's just she's
not the fresh face still, and you know, can she
pivot if she starts to get some negative reactions? Will
the company let her pivot? So there's still and can
they line up good quality opponents for you can be
really over and then if they don't have good opponents
for you, look out. You know, even if you're doing
all the right things, if people start to get bored
by what you're doing, obviously people can turn on her.
But I do think she has that potential to be
somebody that is still in a really strong place a
couple of years from now, if you know, she does
things well and they actually book her properly.
Speaker 1: We're talking about Sasha being positioned well as better as
a heel. Is Charlotte positioned better now? And is she
finally a clear cut heel and is ww bubing Charlotte
and Biancon separate brands, building towards a WrestleMania level one
on one big match between those two as is perhaps
the main target.
Speaker 2: I think. So, you know, as long as Vince doesn't
decide to, you know, to completely severtise with the Flair family.
At this point, you can't rule it anything.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, we've got an email question on that, we'll
get to. You. Do you like Charlotte's work so far,
you know, in this in this van?
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's you know, we finally it's nice to
launch WWE programming and you know, she case the only
king and there's not a queen anymore. She may use
the line once in a while, but it's not all
the cliche royalty promos that her and Corbin were both
doing that just felt so robotic and one dimensional. You know,
she stepped up her game a lot, and I've enjoyed that.
Now they need to figure out what the hell they
want to do with Rhea Ripley. It does seem like,
all right, they're consistently pushing her as a baby face,
but you know, we're still too close to win. No
one had a clue what they wanted her to be,
and here she is in a three way and again
the problem exists that they don't have a lot of
strong people built up to be her next adversary. You know,
is how long can you keep going to Rhea and Charlotte?
And I just think this, Like I think very highly
of Nikki Cross, but I think this Nikki ash character
is just a flash in the pan.
Speaker 5: On Tuesday nights, the conversation doesn't stop when nxtnds, it's
just getting started. I'm Nate Lindberg and alongside my co
host Kelly Wells, we bring you PWT Talks and we
go live on the pw torch YouTube channel about fifteen
minutes after the show to break down matches, storylines, and surprises,
and we take your questions and comments from the live chat.
Miss us live. But you still want to be part
of the show, send your thoughts to pw torch nxdatgmail
dot com and catch the replay on YouTube or on
the pw torch daily cast feed. Just search pw torch
on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you listen. And of
course you can always stream the latest shows at pw
torch dot com.
Speaker 1: This Friday, Jason aw Rampage debuts. Is this the beginning
of the end, like the third hour of Raw was
to people ever liking Raw as the third hour of
Nitro and adding thunder was to WCW being popular. Or
does AW have plenty of practice with their you know,
multi hour episodes of dark and Dark elevation.
Speaker 2: And that doesn't even count. I'm sorry. They can say
that's practice and that's here's a bunch of random matches.
Speaker 1: Yeah with with yeah loosen tie commentary. So they had
this hour show. It's right on after SmackDown. We just
pade another TV ad on Fox on Friday to advertise it.
Maybe Seampunk comes out, maybe he doesn't. This first week,
you know, United Center sold out. They don't need to,
you know, hold off on that if they don't want to.
So we'll talk about the show itself in a minute.
But the impact on the business of AW. Is this
the end of leaving you wanting more instead of after
four or five days you're like, oh God, I'm really
craving AAW again, and oh good it's on Wednesday. And
then you watch and like, wow, I wasn't bored for
a second that two hours flew by, and then you
talk about it for a couple of days, and then
they don't think about it for a couple days. I'm
just thinking of like the average you know, the average viewer,
and it's like, oh yeay, yay to get to escape
in the dynamite again for two hours and all the
best stuff is there and there's no homework, there's no
feeling guilty in it, watched something else, it's all the
Is this the end of that? Well, the answer is yes,
because now you're going to have a forty eight hour
or fifty hour period go by to be precise, and
then there's gonna be another hour that you feel like
kind of you're an a O you fan, Yeah, you
kind of got to watch to stay current, and that's good.
It's like, if you're an FL fan, you don't be
grudge Monday night football. So is this more Hey, this
is just some more content on a product I like,
Or is this a danger zone that AW is entering
And maybe they haven't learned from history.
Speaker 2: I think they're gonna be okay. But by the way,
NFL fans, a lot of us do kind of be
grudge Thursday night football in part because the quality is
not as good. But anyway, I think with the roster
depth that they have, if they do it right, yeah
you're gonna watch some crossover. You're gonna want, you know,
set up match on Wednesday and it leads to something
on Friday. So I'm not saying you just have it
a completely different crew, but I think you can mix
in a lot of people so you don't see them
on Wednesday and you look forward to seeing them on Friday.
I think if they as long as they have that
in mind and it's a one hour show, if anything,
it's just it may feel like a long night if
you're watching both shows. But I don't think it'll just
be because of rampage, and you know, with it just
being one hour, it should kind of breeze by. And yeah,
I think they can be fine. I still don't understand
the purpose of having two YouTube shows. I know they
think one is developmental, and it's like, okay, then what
is the other? And you know, that's why I think
you do run the risk of not only burdening your audience,
but because you don't have to watch those shows. Lord knows.
But I do think it's a bit much to have
people sit at these tapings for as long as they
are and yeah, you can get up and leave, but
maybe you don't want to. Maybe you want to be
there for the whole show. Maybe they're promising you a
loaded dark main event that's you know, truly a dark
main event, and you want to be there, But you've
got to sit through all these squash matches and whatever
they're doing just to fill time on YouTube for god
knows what reason. Ye don't. I don't understand why the
field the need to do this. And there's even talk
that okay, because they're going to be on the road.
Tony Kahn wants to get a separate building to do
dark because that's their developmental What are we doing here?
There's how many matches do you think you need to
have every week? What's great? Have developmental? But in some cases,
like how much you're really gaining from the people who
are on Dynamite anyway winning two minute squash matches on
the YouTube shows, you.
Speaker 1: Know, to build up their record, And then a passing
comment by anouncer say they're on a hot street. They're
seven and one in the last you know, six months.
Speaker 2: They never thought I'd say this. Get rid of the
stupid rankings. You're not doing them right. Just get rid
of them. If that's if that's what it takes to
get title matches. Now I'm going to go win seven
matches on dark. Then nobody's gonna watch it. Just stop it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't have a clear answer for why they're
doing it or how to do it better. I'm in
favor of wrestlers getting reps. I'm in favor if they
don't have a developmental territory or a performance center having
you know, the the wrestlers who are you know, on
the you know, young talent getting a chance to have
matches in front of audiences against a wide array of opponents,
some veterans, some rookie you know, some other young green
guys like they are, and getting reps and then getting
critiqued by the coaches and working in front of an
actual crowd who are into the product and not just
the jaded you know, two hundred fans who show up
every week for some you know, small territory developmental system
like NXT sometimes is rightfully accused of. There are some
benefits to it, and they have deep pockets. All the
negatives you say are are there.
Speaker 2: It's it is.
Speaker 1: It is ignorable, and most Dynamite viewers ignore it, so
there's harm. I have mixed feelings about it because I
just don't think there's a perfect alternative. If they're only
doing it for rankings, well that's dumb. But getting guys
reps and in front of actual fans, in front of
the coaches who can critique their match afterwards, I think
that can pay dividends. It's it's imperfect no matter what
alteration you make to the current situation.
Speaker 2: But do you need seventeen matches like we have tonight
on dark after having you know, seven eight whatever it
was on Elevation.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't get that.
Speaker 2: I mean yeah, like, of course you don't get people
their reps, but you can also once the Indies are
really truly up and running again, send your coaching staff
out there and have them do some scouting. It shows
that you want to keep an eye on somebody or whatever.
I think there's other ways to do this, and that
just shows some discipline. Seventeen matches on the second YouTube
show of the week is just overkilled. I don't know
who they think they're serving with this, and I again,
you're only getting Yeah, you're getting out there for a
couple of minutes, and you know, some of these matches
last thing was a little different. They may have been
shorter matches because there was rain in the area. I'm
not sure, but you know what you could also do
is just go, well, let's just you know, only have
four matches on Dark Elevation this week. It's okay. I
would be much more likely to watch Dark Elevation if
I knew that it was going to be a one
hour show that would start in the hour leading up
to Raw and would end before Raw. But they don't
do that. It's very rare that they actually end the
show in time for it, and it's just like because
of that, I'm like, no, whatever.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you don't want the main event over to go
over the overlap Raw, especially if you're trying to keep
up on raws as a reporter. I think even if
they if Dark Elevations ninety minutes and it was a
higher end level talent and it aired before Raw and
they hyped it on Dynamite and it had a distinct
framed purpose and then the regular Dark, and I was
saying called dark and Dark Elevation, but I would saying
called Dark in the first place, start means it's not taped,
So they're going against the long standing, the long standing
use of that term. But that's not a battle. I'm
going to spend a lot of energy on it, but
I do want to emphasize itself.
Speaker 2: And apparently Tony Cohn's not even watching all these matches,
so what's the point? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know, or
so he claims with this max cast thing. I know,
I know.
Speaker 1: So if you know, if they just had two tidy minute,
tot tidy tidy ninety minute shows and they each had
a distinct purpose and one was clearly distinctly different than
the other, and you can kind of plan for it,
that's one thing, but it is. It's like sometimes you're
searching for movies on Netflix or something or on demand
and you're like, I got ninety minutes or two hours
to watch, and then something comes to three hours and
twenty two minutes and you're like, I've heard great things,
No I'm not going to watch it. Yeah yeah, And
you know, or a book.
Speaker 2: It's like I'm passed in movie theaters because a big
rockbuster movies good. I'm not sitting in the theater for
three hours. I'll wait for the back in the day
of the VHS.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and books too. It's like, oh, three hundred twelve pages,
I can do that, but five hundred and eighty I
want to learn about this person or this event if
it's nonfiction or I'm sure it's good, but I just
I know I won't finish this in the next two years,
so I mean, yeah, whatever. Anyway, enough on that, So
but back to Rampage. What's the best case scenario rio
for Rampage in terms of the purpose it serves? Is
it essentially as much as they might pay lip service
to it being something different? Is it essentially a third
hour of Dynamite? And if so, is that fine?
Speaker 2: I hope not. First off, they deserve a ton of
credit because apparently P and T really thought it was
a good idea to have a third true hour of Dynamite,
and they talked them into rampage on a separate night
that would have been utterly ridiculous, and apparently no one
can learn from raw. I couldn't believe that the executives
actually thought that was a good idea, So kudos to
Tony Kan and company. What do you have got into it?
Speaker 1: Would you have switched professions.
Speaker 2: If that happened, I probably would have spent some time
crying into my pillow or something going.
Speaker 1: Really, remember when Nitrous three hours. I don't want to
derail you to about her, Jason, but remember when Nitro's
three hours, they had the first hour and a half
were two commentators and then they'd trade off and then yes,
come out. Maybe they did that with the two Urt
Nitro even before it was three. But like, I think
that would be good for like for people who report
on it, Like you could you know, first ninety minutes Jason,
then the next ninety minutes Jake. Can you just tag
in and and But but you can't do that, you know,
because to be to really be up on things and
be a completist and get a full picture on a show,
you're gonna watch it like most people watch it, and
you can't do that. But it would be tempting, you know.
And then you can do your podcast and it's like
I'm gonna review the first ninety minutes and then Jake's
and we're gonna splice them together and there's your post
show review. I mean, yeah, three hours is too long,
and I think Tony con would have lost a lot
of good will with a lot of people if he
took that money and honestly airing the airing immediately after
SmackDown is just it's so on brand for AW to
just be like, oh yeah, SmackDown can't be three hours
because Fox says all the local news broadcasts that keep
all these regional TV networks in business, So there's no
way there ever an expense SmackDown. So let's be their
third hour. And you know, I don't know how much
it will help or hurt them. You know, some people
are like, already got my tours arresting on, I want
to watch anything more, or I'm gonna skip SmackDown now
because I get Friday night fix, or if a lot
of people just watch both for three hours. It's a
lot easier to watch three hours of wrestling if it's
a complete If it's a two hour show with one
vibe and presentation, and then a one hour show of
a competitor, that's way more palatable than three hours one.
No matter how good Dynamite is, I'd rather watch a
two hour Dynamite in a one hour raw than a
three hour Dynamite. I will say that on record. I
don't care if it includes Ginder Mahal, you know, or
in twenty four to seven nonsense like I just I
want the I want a product to begin, middle and
end at two hours.
Speaker 2: I agree wholeheartedly. Yeah, you know, as far as like
what Rampage can mean for them as a positive, I
think it's hopefully slowing down a little bit. I don't
know if they have it in them. You know, we'll
find out. Maybe it is. They've been cramming as much
as they can into two hours of Dynamite. But I
mean we used to hear it, and I know two
different companies, but Impact used to say TNA back in
the day is definitely only had that second hour, and
it's like, okay, sure. So so hopefully it is going
to mean that they don't feel the need to have
seventy run ins on every episode because they want to
make sure they get everybody on the on Dynamite. I mean,
they're still adding to their roster and there's still I
don't think three hours is going to be enough to
keep everybody getting on these shows. That's okay, but they
need to figure out that that's okay.
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podcast app. Have you heard anything or do you have
any ideas on how to make rampage different? Is there
a way to make it different? Just have it be
distinct from being a third hour Dynamite, you know.
Speaker 2: I mean there's all, you know, a lot of little
things you could do. You know, obviously, I would think
it's gonna have a different set. That's something. Not that
that's everything, but you know, maybe you make the TNT
titles something that's defended only on Rampage. You and you
said parameter, it doesn't have to be weekly, but maybe
in every other week title, you know, just different things
like that. I would just I would try to keep
it a little more quick hitting and save you're kind
of your longer matches for Dynamite in most cases, if
you want to have a big, loaded main event or
something like that on Rampage from time to time, cool,
But I think you can just you know, take the
lessons more approaches for it's like the match times, and
just try to create that kind of adrenaline rush feel
of that one hour, make it a bit more of
a sprint. And you know, I think it's unless you're
a wrestling fantash trying to watch everything. I think three
hours is very easy, is very easy to do if
you're just an aw fan and you watch those two
hours on Wednesday, and yeah, you're not left wanting more
all week long, but you're still getting a day in between,
and you know, not everyone's going to watch on Friday night.
They might watch over the weekend at their leisure. I
do wonder, you know, what the DVR numbers going to
be like, and for both SmackDown and I mean, it
makes it really Friday night more daunting for wrestling fans
in general. So I wonder if you will see some
more people DV ring both shows, like, Hey, I'll watch
this one have time. That's going to be interesting. And
I'm kind of veering off topic here, but I was
surprised to hear that they're not going to air Rampage
live on the West Coast, that it's going to be
stuck on a two hour and three hour delay. Whatever
it is. I guess it's a T and T decision.
I don't think AW really has much they can say
about it. But I think that's kind of foolish. Why
not get people, you know, get people both options. I
don't really get that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it's probably going to be a top rated
show for TNT on Friday nights, maybe as do it's
just the I mean, if it's tours earlier, you can
just air a movie right afterwards, Yeah, and make it work.
So yeah, do you think they should have a five
or six man announced team instead of a format Jason?
Do you think they should?
Speaker 2: I was actually thinking twelve.
Speaker 1: Yes. Now I don't understand. Is it gonna be EXCaliber
in Jericho one week, Excaliburn, Taz, another in excalibern Mark
Henry and then they rotate kind of like co hosts
on the flag Ship.
Speaker 2: Maybe they're doing your idea, They're just gonna switch broadcast
teams at thirty minutes.
Speaker 1: In Oh that that could be, or twenty minutes, twenty
minutes to Jericho twenty test, twenty minutes of Mark Henry
and ex Caliber is there the whole time? So no,
I I mean they announced that, but I genuinely don't know.
I just hadn't thought about it since since last Wednesday
to even ask about it. But is your assumption they're
going to have a four man booth or are they
going to do again like co hosts on the flag
Ship every three four weeks, you hear from someone and
then it rotates, Like to me, that's better, But I
can't imagine Jericho, Taz and Henry and ex Caliber all
sitting at a desk together announcing a one hour show.
That can't be it, no got I.
Speaker 2: Mean it may be. That was my first guess. Yeah,
it was, oh my gosh, we're getting a four man team.
But you know, it's like, let's see how it play out.
Maybe they do have Maybe they're all labeled as broadcast
team members and one of them is doing backstage interviews,
you know, something like that. I would hope it's not
a fore man. That's three man's over kill in a
lot of ways. I wouldn't want to see Dynamite change.
I'll give them that. That's a three man booth that works.
And I was a little concerned when ex Caliber started
thanking Jr. And Tony, wondering like, is he not going
to be on Dynamite anymore. I would hope that's you know,
I would hope they're going to keep that crew together.
But yeah, four man is ridiculous. It's great with WWE's
finally show them restraint with the two men McAfee and
Cole on on Friday Night. Now AW is deciding to
double that up for their show, weird.
Speaker 1: I would not have a big problem of ex Caliber
being moved from dynamite to rampage. If the approach, if
the idea was, let Ross be the lead announcer, let
Giovanni kind of, you know, do the live interviews, bounce around,
but also be kind of the more affable, less prickly character,
but have a really well informed, good color commentator in
a more traditional role. I wouldn't necessary. I wouldn't go
that's a big step down. I mean, I think what
they're doing works. It's unconventional, but it works in the
roles that they have. But I'm not against one hour
of ex Caliber a week and then having because there
is some tension with Ross and an ex caliber sometimes
as gracious as he was on Wednesday. If they got
the right color commentator in there, I think you can work.
Speaker 2: I think there's going to be a tension with JR
just about anybody. I think that's just who JILR is.
But yeah, okay, my concern isn't so much that, my god,
you can't take ex caliber. If you do have the
right third person, great, My concern is it, Yeah, I
don't think JR and Tony just calling everything is the
right approach. I think they both bring a lot to
the table with them being a two man team. I
don't think, you know, in some day, I'd be surprised
if they know the names of you know, even a
fraction of the moves. And you know, we hear Jr.
Could of mocking ex Caliber for knowing certain things, and yeah,
I just you know, I think there's an audience that
would be all over them for that. A more casual
viewer may not give a damn, but I do think
it's good to have somebody there that can kind of
fill in those blanks.
Speaker 1: The Cody Rhodes Malachi Black match and segment a surprise
quick five minute win for Black, followed by Cody making
it all about him afterwards. Yes, you're I mean, God
bless him. But you know, because there's you know, Cody
learned from his dad and around Triple H. And it's like,
if you have the power to make it about yourself,
you can get away with it. If you can get
away with it, you can you know, come across as
a big star. And Cody definitely comes from the school
of always look like a big star and how you dress.
And I mean I remember him walking into Star Cast
and at the hotel and it was just like Elvis
walked in the building and the people walked around him
and he carried himself like, yes, I have arrived. But
he doesn't do anything that is in grandiose, and in
this case it took away from the Black moment. I think, like, yeah,
he just can't help himself, and I don't know if
it's a deliberate tactic, and he's sort of like rolling
his eyes. He said, yeah, I know I'm a little much,
but you know it's my strategy. You know there's good
and bad that comes with and I acknowledge that, but
it doesn't mean I'm not going to criticize him when
it's supposed to me this big moment for Black. And
then we get a fake retirement tease and you know
along promo that I don't know. So, yeah, you're that's
my taket. It sounds like you're kind of nodding along
verbally there, what do you think?
Speaker 2: I am definitely nodding along. It's like I was so
into the build for that. I know there were flaws
and some people would Jake Barnett, my co host of
Doddane Weekley, was really good at picking apart the flaws
leading into it, and they were all logical and like yep,
nodding along with him, going Yep, you're right, but I'm
still really into this. I'm looking forward to this match,
and then when it played out, I felt like I
just felt deflated. It was disappointing for me because it
felt a little too similar to the last time Cody
was leaving to go film his Go Big show. And
I love the Brody Lee match. I absolutely it was
one of my favorite matches that year, just the destruction
of Cody Rhodes. It was you didn't see it coming.
This felt a little too similar. And you know, this
is aw like has a lot of faith in its audience.
They clearly think that they feel like they're playing to
a wrestling smart, sophisticated audience, and they'll do things. They'll
act like you should know who all these different people
are and who all these title belt you know where
all these title belts come from and why they mean something.
But then they want you to play dumb and act
like you don't know that Cody's going off to make
this show. And I don't like the inconsistency there, And
it does feel like there's inconsistency with the booking of
the rest of the show. And what Cody's doing. You know,
people talk about the Cody verse and I think that's
a thing, and so they really had me going in
and then coming out of it it was like, you're
not retiring, you know what is why why would you
go through all this hassle just to get to the
match that everybody knows you're gonna have anyway, it just
was overdone.
Speaker 6: Need an extra dose of positivity in your wrestling podcasts,
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Speaker 1: See you in the Paradise. Yeah, I mean every every
Cody promo feels like some sort of therapy session where
the therapist is like, oh god, he's here again, and
I gotta listen to him. Just you know, legacy is
a funny thing. Oh, they laughed at us when we
set this. This isn't an alternative, this is competition. We
set the table and now maybe some new people can eat. Uh,
this is the aw you have a theater. With all
due respect to Daily's Place, it's time with no bitterness,
by the.
Speaker 2: Way, with why okay, Daily Place was by far the
best venue during the pandemic, and now it is a
reminder of the pandemic. They went back there way too soon.
It seems like a lovely facility and all that. But yeah,
I don't need to see Daily's Place for a long time.
Speaker 1: And then at Cody also like you know, oh the
e v P, you know, acknowledging what he wants denied,
you know, and maybe maybe some infighting EVPs. I won't
confirm it, but I'll say maybe. But I love them
deeply and will forever be tethered to them. It's like
it's just all a little much with him, and so
I mean it might be that's the thing. It's gonna
it's gonna translate well to a heel. But he could
have said, wow, I you know, like you could have
kept this k FAPE storyline in within the lines of
how everyone else plays. That was my criticism of the
you know, magnificent simply crafted and executed. Seeampunk sit on
the stage, you know a pipe on promo. It's like, well, yeah,
you got to draw outside of the lines and everyone
else had to draw in side lines. He's really, really,
really good at drawing outside of the lines. But there
was grumbling and some wrestlers, some with more credibility than others,
said well, if you'll let me cut loose like that,
I'd get myself over too. But Cody, I just want
to see him play within the lines. I don't want
him to stand there and be the fourth wall breaking. Well,
this is where I'm supposed to hype the event and
talk about the date and help people convince people to
part with their money. It's like stop saying that, Like, no,
just cut a promo. Just play with the bounds of
everybody else. You don't have to lock onto a baseball
field and go huh first, second, third base, and home
base with a pinching mount in the middle. Let's examine
this and like, no, just play freaking baseball. And you know,
like so, I mean, you know, not, good riddance, But
like I would have if he would have said, obviously,
my mind is elsewhere right now, I've got this other
thing coming up. It's been great. I've loved being an
aw I want to be a great wrestler. But the
fact is is, people who know me know I've also
really been interested in acting. And I got some tough
choices to make. If I'm going to be committed to
this or not, or if it's okay, you know, will
you people be okay? If I you know, I'm here,
my mind's not here. I just this guy's good. I
don't know who Coody is because I didn't bring my
best game. I don't want to take anything even that
would have been criticized, so scratch all that. But you
know what I mean, Like I'm it's it's the equivalent
of what he did, but combined with what people what
people's knowledge of the situation is, and it would have
combined reality in k FAB a little bit better. And
I just want to see him do that because I
think he'd be really good at playing within the lines
instead of always having to show that he's above that.
Speaker 2: Yes, and i'd really been high on Cody as a
babyface or I was, he's blowing it, you know. It's
now as far as him being booed against Malanchiche, like,
that's just I don't read too much into that. I
think if you put Cody out there with a lot
of other people, he's still going to be cheered. But
he I think the early Cody in aw that was
so beloved, I don't think that would have happened. I
think that the fans would have played along and would
have bowed Malachi Black in favor of Cody. I think
it is a small sign that he's, you know, just
the way he's booked himself for whatever's happening with that
and some of these weird promos. I think that, you know,
he is hurting himself more than he's helping himself with
the approach that he's taken. I think this guy should
still be in position, whether he wants to be or not,
as the top baby face in that company. And I
don't see him that way anymore because of some of
the damage that you know, it's been self inflicted. Yeah,
who wanted to see him work? QT? Marshall, who wanted
to see him work? Anthony A Gogo? You know, just
some of the decisions and you know, you're you're doing
a great job of nailing these promos. It's I don't like,
did QT really gain a ton from that? I mean
he's on TV, ye got something Anthony Googo? I mean
he got hurt, But I didn't feel like Anthony Gogo
was made a star that night. It was the worst
received match of that evening on pay per view, and
it took them a while to get out of their funk,
you know, the crowd to get back into swing of
things after that match, and you know he said, well
I wanted to do it in the UK. Well then
you should have waited. What was the rush?
Speaker 1: On another aw topic, king Man Page, what's your just
kind of news take on him not winning the title shot,
securing a title shot at all, out what's the news
reason for it? And then what's your storyline evaluation of it?
And certainly, you know, adding cmpunk and Brian Daniels into
the mix might be a good reason to change things up.
But is this is this damaging or good? And is
it for a good or bad reason.
Speaker 2: To be determined? And I know it sounds like a compo,
but let's see what they have. If it's well, it's
Christian and Kenny Omegas, we expect.
Speaker 1: That's way too reason. Jason be like Twitter, just flash
out without full knowledge, don't wait.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a lot of that going on these days.
But I do think that it could make sense if
you do have, say, you know, a big punk match
at the pay per view that is going to be
bigger than the main event, and maybe you're getting Brian
Danielson in for a match as well. I think it
does make you can call him aunible, going, well, you know,
we were counting on Omega and Page to anchor this
pay per view, but now look at this, we can
go with the almost like the Royal Rumble, where it's
like the rumble cells itself. You don't need to give
your best title match away. Maybe you do take that approach.
I don't know if this is related to you know,
there's I don't know. If it seems like people have
indicated maybe Page is taking time away because his wife
is pregnant. I mean, if that's it, If that's what's happening,
and I totally get it, it almost and maybe there
is something to that. Maybe it's touch and go as
far as whether he's going to be there, because it
sure seems like they're keeping him in in that mix,
even though Christian keeps talking about or they keep mentioning
Christians moved up the rankings. Maybe it is kind of
we assume it's off, but yeah, maybe it's not after all.
I mean, the weird thing is they haven't announced anything
for this pay per view yet.
Speaker 1: I know, I know, Yeah, I'm with you. I want
to say, I'm not going to get overly critical, and
I mean we can kind of get into, you know,
different ways this might If if this is the reason,
we can analyze whether it's good or bad. But we
just don't quite know fully the reason yet. And if
it is just to play the punk card, right away
against Omega. Try to draw monster by rate. I mean
I love having that Page. He's super valuable to AW
and he's a potential top top guy for years to come.
But you strike while it's hot with Punk. You know,
in six months, Punk against Omega means less than Punk
on less than one month's notice against Omega. If that's
what they're going to do, I think that's a monster match.
Speaker 2: And you know, and I can add to that, you
know what about Punk the hip cred coming in and
you know, stealing pay per view spots from deserving people
such as Hangman Page, who you know, he gets to
talk down to Hangman Page about this is how the
business works, kid, And you set up a match between
them down the road.
Speaker 1: That's the thing. Yeah, I mean you got to have
Punk as a baby face at first. Well you don't
have to, I mean you could really do have. But
if you're going to do we Omega, I think you
want to have a clear cut Punk babyface situation. All right,
let's hit some Melbay questions here. We could obviously talk
for six more hours and not hit everything that's been
going on. I'll start here with Jack from Swansea, Wales. Hey,
Waite and Jason Ope, you're both doing well. I wanted
to pick up where Wade was talking yesterday about Damian
Priest on the Raw post show. Javier made a great
point about Priest being the only babyface in w W
who isn't stupid and doesn't fall for distractions. I'm on
the same side as you, Wade. I really like Priest
and I'm sort of happy Warriors at the moment. Hopefully
a hard hitting match at SummerSlam in which he takes
the title, the US title. I do agree with you, however,
that maybe there's something slightly missing for that number one
main event babyface. Although the last few weeks I think
he's surprised me on the mic. Seems like the fans
are getting more and more into him. He's just an
entertaining guy in the rain and seems like a pretty
cool dude. Like you said, he's thirty nine. I think
he's someone who should be tried in the main event
against Lashley down the road. What do you think is
sealing ITWB needs to take more risks than I think
him in the main event seen by the end of
the year would be a wise decision. Thanks guys, and
stay safe. Jason, your take on Priests for people in
he Hear the post show, check it out. It was
a good one. Lot of a lot of various topics
stemming from Raw are connected to Raw, but one was
Priest where I'm I'm not sold on it being this
huge mistake if they don't just build a brand around him.
But I'm not against them trying. I'm just not someone
who's gonna put all my money on it working. I
think there's a possibility he's not quite a top top
guy because he just hasn't shown he can translate that
you know, that cool chill dude on the mic who's
got the deep voice and seems like an elfha into
a ticket selling promo that gets fans energize for that. Traditionally,
babyfaces should have in a Roman Rain's never had, and
that was one of my big criticisms of him, and
in the Ring, I just want to see him have
like matches that I think can end a pay per
view And I'm not there yet with him either, But
I'm not, like, for sure lowering his ceiling to something
less than that guy. So where are you?
Speaker 2: Right there with you? I think you nailed it. He's
there's potential, you know, and if they I wouldn't complain
at all. If they had him somehow come up short,
I wouldn't just have shame to beat him. But if
they did decide let's not put the US title on it,
because we do want to get him in the world
title mix, and then you kind of go from there,
you know, not right away, but just somewhere down the road,
and you try to work out some of their kinks
with the character and the presentation along the way, and
if he does catch fire, great chances. I don't think
he's going to necessarily, but I think he is a
guy that you know, just almost by default, who should
at some point work with.
Speaker 1: Lastly, yeah, before pushing play on the way Keller Pro
Wrestling post shows, check out pw torch dot com and
our TV review section and skim through a full rundown
of the TV show if you didn't see it. That's
your way to get an overview of what happened before
you dive into our in depth analysis of the key
happenings on the show. That's pw torch dot com. You're
home for live TV coverage every Monday, Wednesday and Friday
with my TV Reports and also check out our NXT
and Impact coverage on Tuesdays and Thursdays, our Collision reports
on Saturday nights, and of course our live pay per
view and PLEE coverage on weekends. All waiting for you
at PW Torch dot com. All right, next up on
the email list here, I want to take this one.
All right, Yeah, we'll do this. Joe from here brings
up Rick Flair. I want to get your take on
Rick Flair being cut. I can't believe Fleric I, who's
been in the business for almost fifty years, would be
so stupid to text Vince McMahon and say fix Charlotte's
booking or I quit. He had to note, if you
come at Vince like that, you're gonna get your walking
papers plus vided text vints like that, it's not going
to help Charlotte long her backstage. Vince has not done
Charlotte any favors of the fan base, having her win
the title twice in a three year in a three
week period and also having her lose the title twice
inside the same three week period. The bottom line is
Flair is overpushed most of the time, no matter how
many times do they give her the title belt, it
means nothing when she gives it right back inside the
same month. As for Rouk Claire, He's lucky to be
getting check from de w at this point. He is
just so far past any value right now. What's the
story of WW and Charlotte? Was there some falling out?
She was held off Mania, they caught her boyfriend, and
it just seems like there's a disconnect, So I'll pause there.
He's got a part two, Jason, what's the separate the
fact from fiction, the known from the reported on that?
And and do you agree with the you know she
was the framing, the popular framing of she was held
off of WrestleMania, you know, maliciously.
Speaker 2: That's a weird story, the idea that you know, she
had a false positive for pregnancy. But I mean it
was resolved. They figured out she wasn't pregnant in plenty
of time to add her to WrestleMania. And okay, maybe
the WrestleMania program wouldn't have had the right lineup, big
fricking deal. She easily could have been on the WrestleMania card.
So I don't understand that. I think there is more
to the story. I don't know. If it was some punishment,
some bad feelings, I don't know, but yeah, I mean,
you just look at the situation with her, and they
didn't do right by her boyfriend. I'm not saying he
should have been the world champion, but they could have
done more with him. I can see the frustration there.
I can see the if you're Rick Flair, I mean,
I don't know why you would flash out at Vince
McMahon by text, if that's really truly what happened about
the booking. But you know, Flair still has value. He's
Rick Flair, so let's say that right up front, and
should he be eternally grateful to Vince McMahon. But it
doesn't mean that he isn't at a place where he
doesn't need Vince McMahon. There's competition out there and he
can leave. And he also has if you haven't noticed,
anytime you watch a wrestling show, you see Rick Flair
constantly in these freaking car shield commercials that were quted
at first, and now I just can't wait to fast
forward if I'm watching something on the DVR. But I mean,
he's a legend, and yeah, he should be grateful for
the things that Vince has done for him over the years,
because I think he has. I think there's stories of
him kind of helping him out of tax issues and
other things. But you can still be grateful and go
work elsewhere. It's okay. There's nothing saying like he's bound
to WWE for life, and so, yeah, I'm sure you
know he had I don't know if he was thinking
clearly when he decided to lash out about the booking,
but hell, I wish more people would lash out to
vincemicmah about his terrible booking.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I mean I don't know what to make
of it. I could imagine Rick getting worked up by
somebody and just being like, I'm gonna just you know
him that. But Rick's sort of at a point.
Speaker 2: His daughter losing to a superhero. Maybe yeah, But at the.
Speaker 1: Same time, I mean, yes, but she's the champ and
they're pushing her and wrestlers have to do jobs. I
mean I can't Yeah, I mean, you can't be that.
I mean, I don't know trying to.
Speaker 2: Like this is you know, whatever, it was like, this
was the time you got upset and what about and
maybe he does all the other times they book Charlotte
Flair horribly. I don't know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, so uh, I'm trying to.
Speaker 2: With Rick.
Speaker 1: I know, I was gonna say, it's just with Rick Flair,
is there value as iconic as he is, as mainstream
is if? I mean it's Rick Flair and Steve Austin
and all the you know, John Cena like and all
these TV commercials, Like there's this whole you know, generation
of advertising agencies that are like, we need to get these,
you know, the these these iconic progresslers and ads. They're
they're distinctive and and have fan loyalty. Will uh, will
Rick Flair show up on a w TV? Could it
be as soon as it Friday? It would that be
a good move for a w given what a crossover
iconic figure is just kind of add to you know,
Big Show and Mark Henry and this kind of idea
that this is where legends come to to you know, uh,
manage people out to yeah that but out to pasture,
but also in a way where they just they're they're
treated respectfully.
Speaker 2: I would really put some thought into this one. I know,
you know, you have a new show starting and that
would be a hell the way to create some buzz
but man, it's just you do have the main three
horsemen there. You it is Rick Flair. And I'm not
saying you can't put a older thought in and get
it right the first time, but I just wouldn't want
to see him go. Rick Flair's free, Let's pay him
what he wants and rush him on the show and
just have it be. Now he's going to manage and
Roddy we'll get travel. You know, just as an example,
I do it right with him, make it count that
you have Rick Flair being there. I don't even know
what the circumstances would be, but really try to make
it feel special, and I would. Man, it's easier said
than done. I would present him differently than WWE did.
You know, he's Rick Flair, and we know he loves
to go out there, and he can kind of tell him.
You can give him bullet points and ask him to
tone it down, and he's probably gonna start dropping elbows
on his suit coat anyway. But I really would try
to present him in just more in a more dignified
way than the older, top, crazy old man that we
get from WWE too often, which I think unfortunately he
enjoys playing.
Speaker 1: Uh, yeah, I mean with a e W anything. I mean,
they do seem to be in a of a mindset
that let's become the I mean, I think Tony CON's
trying to become the brand and it's a long term
arc to get there. But part of that is kind
of you know, Eric Bischoff and WW bringing in, you know,
these big names from previous eras and territories that w
had had Vince for various reasons, stopped using and you know,
everybody has a different story, but it ended up being
you know, it's what Tony Conn grew up watching, you know,
and studying. Is everybody that was brought in brought a
few extra fans if your eyeballs, and a little more
credibility as the w W brand became the brand and
pro wrestling for at least a couple of years there,
there's so you know, Rick can be part of that.
But Rick also went to TNA, and you know, didn't
make t and a household name. But I think Rick,
in a weird way as a bigger star now than
he was when he was part of TNA.
Speaker 2: But yeah, yeah, yeah, I didn't really thought about it,
but I think you're right.
Speaker 7: Yeah, I'm Chris Maitland.
Speaker 1: I'm Justin McClellan.
Speaker 7: We host Wrestling Coast to Coast, a podcast independent wrestling.
Speaker 6: Every week, Chris and I review a different show or
talk about important topics from around the indie wrestling world.
Speaker 7: Learn about the hot underground stars and the future main eventors.
For anyone else, you can reach us a Torch Coast
to at gmail dot com and me on Blue Sky
at Mind of Maitland. You can reach me at Blue
Sky at Justin McClelland find the show on your PW
torch dailycast podcast feed, search PW Torch on Apple Podcasts, Spotify,
or wherever you listen to podcasts.
Speaker 1: Also stream the latest shows on pwtorch dot com. All right,
so part two of Joe's question with WW is doing
long term damage to their image. They look like crap
cutting so much talent during the pandemic, and then they
turn around and talk about how much money they made
in the past three months. W Wrestler's better. Wake up.
There's other wrestling companies that will treat you better and
book you better. I'm not just I'm not just talking
about AW New Japan or WAH. I don't feel sorry
for talent like Dolphins are. They've been poorly booked for
years and do not have the guts to leave the company.
Even Rawlins has been underbooked. I've not been impressed with
Rawlins since he came back years ago from his blown
out knee. The fact is Rowlin should be a top
guy in the wrestling business, but he's not because he's
stuck in a mid card gimmick. The fact is, has
aw made any other roster cuts during the pen I
believe the answer is no. Plus TK said the company
lost money in twenty twenty, and he still didn't cut anyone.
In fact, it looks like he opened a checkbook bringing
in Brian Danielson and Ceam Puck. Final point is where
I was ready for the one point two to one
point five ratings that will be coming. When are they
ready for that when football returns in September. First of all,
they're drawing one point three ratings right now, So I
don't know what I think he's talking about. People conflate
viewership and in ratings, but a ratings is not the
same thing as viewership. So I think when he says rating,
he means viewership. Yeah, I don't know, Yeah, I mean,
Rob viewership will probably go down Jason up against Monday
night Football, and it'll be a tough run, and it's
probably smart, you know, for a variety of reasons that
SmackDown is is you know pretty clearly there a show
right now, and I think the post draft shakeup is
not going to make you as a network think DoD
B has, as much as they'd like to, has shifted
away from trying to make the roster's look even. But
any you know, the anyone who unders stands how over
the wrestlers are and how much of a difference they
really make. Rod's going to get the veneer of equality,
but SmackDown's going to get the people who really are,
you know, from a depth standpoint, bigger stars.
Speaker 2: Yes, that seemed to be the but I gotta say,
I think it's a bit much to start lashing out
at people who are being well compensated in WWE and
maybe very happy there for not having the guts to leave,
you know, that come out totally.
Speaker 1: I was gonna say that that thingulpdal Ziegler and Cesarro
and Rawlins I think are very happy just because they're
not being used the way that you think they should
be or ideally in your mind, doesn't mean they don't
have I mean Dolphziggler, the wear and tear on his body,
with the schedule that they keep now and the money
he's making, and just I mean, yes, they all, you know,
they all want more. I'm sure you know everyone he
mentioned would like to be in a better position. But
don't assume because somebody is not the centerpiece act getting
pushed exactly the right way means they're unhappy. They're you know,
we can argue they're not compensated enough for the money
that that's coming in, but they're all well compensated and
part of a of a machinery. And some people just don't,
you know, just want that predictability until they're cut. They
take the money and they're happy.
Speaker 2: Yes, yep. I may want to seize his ro and
go elsewhere as a just as a viewer, but I
can't be grudge the guy. If he's continuing what he's doing,
if he's being well compensated, he's happy. That's all the counts.
Speaker 1: So Paul from Tuscaloosa says Wade and Jason, I always
enjoy the discussion. You both have insightful and entertaining given
everything going on in w B. This is probably hypothetical,
but what two to three wrestlers could you see jumping
from ae W to WWE Who would be a good fit,
either in the near future or down the line. We're
to the point now where you know, so much talk
has been about one direction. But you know, dode B
can look at that WW or doo te B can
look at the AW roster and start to go, well,
who do we want to pluck? You know, if it
becomes available, who jumps out to you as over the
next you know, six years to three years, you know,
whenever deals come up or whatever, that would be a
good a good a good get for w w E.
Speaker 2: In the way Vince thincts Wardlow.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but I mean might and he might be right
by the way Wardo's good.
Speaker 2: Yes, but you know, I don't know the contractual status
is of a lot of people, but I do think
one thing, it's going to be worth keeping an eye
on what happens when these EVP deals come up.
Speaker 7: Mm hmm.
Speaker 1: I was thinking Cody, by the way, that was the
first thing that came to mind.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I I would be I guess surprised if
Cody were to go, it sounds like he in a
long you know, it works closely with Tony Kahan behind
the scenes. His wife is in an executive position as well.
They have the reality show coming out so that, you know,
and then the go a big show, So there's obviously
connections there with TNT. Kenny Omega still seems like he
is heavily involved with working with the women's stuff behind
the scenes, and he's the champion, and you know, I
don't know that he has ever had a strong desire
to go to w W in the first place. But
what are the Bucks doing in the EVPs? And I
say that as an honest question. Maybe they're doing a ton,
but I don't know. And if let's say, just for
the sake of argument, they're not doing a ton, do
they get is the contract offered as strong next time?
You know? Do they take offense if it's not some
big increase or even if it's a hey, you know,
we were paying you well when the idea was that
you were going to be helping with creative for instance,
But we really haven't leaned on you for that. And
I'm just saying that hypothetically. I don't know but you know,
what about taking a little bit of a cut and
they take offence and wwe comes a call? I mean
never or it sounds crazy, but I can't rule it out.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think you know, the question is if if
vin'sc got hold of the bucks, would he understand what
he has and used them well or shiny new toy
for a week or two or a month or two,
and then they just end up, you know, being a
tag team the way vencent Man treats tag teams. And yeah,
and you know, like I'm thinking, who would he get
that he could actually you know, make money with Hanglan
Page isn't probably tall enough to be a guy that
he would push in a major way.
Speaker 2: He doesn't have the dynamic promo skills. We haven't really
seen that from hum Yety either.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, and you know, I don't know if he
you know, yeah, if he would come across as is
driven enough and and alpha enough and you know, grab
the brass ring enough for him, you know, if he
has enough ruthless aggression in him, so you know, it's
it's not it's it's not an obvious list. I think
he would take Jericho back in some role. Yeah, you know,
he jumps out in terms of, like, you know, young
guys on the rise. I mean, MGF probably would be
the the number one guy that I think Vince would
would find good use for. He's not real tall, but
I mean it's just he's got such strengths in other ways.
But it's weird. As strong as aw roster is it,
it doesn't just leap out as oh man, Vince would
love to have that guy, that guy, that woman and
that woman.
Speaker 2: And that's a very cool thing. I love that it's
not just WWE light, it's different.
Speaker 1: I agree, I agree, Will.
Speaker 2: I will add the person who should be the most
highly paid free agent jump one of these years, Pat McAfee.
And I'm not even talking wrestling. This guy really belongs
doing network football, whether it's Monday night football or a
studio job, and I think it's only a matter of time.
I think WWE should enjoy it while it lasts. I
was never a big McAfee fan when he just do
in the pre shows. I thought it was way too
much look at me and with the jeorts and all
of that he is. I think he does a really
nice job on commentary for WWE. But more importantly than that,
just listening to this guy. Happened to catch him on
I think it was Mike Greenberg sports talk radio show.
Just driving in the car and listening to him talk NFL.
And it was not the over the top Pat McAfee
that you get. It was very down to earth and
he knows his stuff, and I was very impressed. And
it's just like light bulb went off, like like Okay,
ESPN's always every year it seems like they're looking for
a good Monday night crew. They never seem to get one.
Why are they not calling this guy?
Speaker 1: I could see Pat being motivated enough to do both.
Speaker 2: Sure, Yeah, you know, I mean, I think it's only
a matter of time before he gets paid by one
of these networks.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he has won me over. Yeah, he's done. He's
done a lot to show that he is genuinely passionate
about the product. Yeah, and knows it. He understands how
to talk to the fans and not insult their intelligence. Yeah,
I've just it. It's been a pleasant surprise what he's
turned into. You know, that last segment you're just listening
to and the next one that you're waiting to listen to,
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run throughout the week.
Speaker 2: Every week.
Speaker 1: Bray Wyatt Jason does he? Is he someone AW should
go after for any reason or is it just you know,
one one big contract too many with the reality being,
you know, he may or may not be a creative genius,
but when the bell rings, he just hasn't doesn't have
a history of delivering, and that's something AW values.
Speaker 2: If I'm Tony Conn, I want to have a really
long conversation with Bray Wyatt, and I want to talk
to his peers that work with him. I want to
know what makes this guy tick. I want to know
was he was he pushing for hocus pocus stuff that
I don't think AW should ever incorporate. Was that of
Vinced Pickman thing that he went along with? Is he
more the guy that saw the value in the cult leader,
the master manipulator, the mind games? You know? Was it
more of a cerebral character to Kim? But along the
way came the fiend and you know, all right, vinceus
giddy about it. Of course I'm going to go along
for the ride and do the best I can with it.
And then when it comes to the peers, okay, you know,
what is it with this guy? Why did he disappear
for as long as he did? What? You know, there's
obviously some headbutting with him and Vince McMahon. Was was it?
How much of that was on bray? I want to
know what I'm getting from this guy. I think there's
talent there. I think you can work around the in
ring limitations. Maybe if you're motivating him creatively, maybe you know,
the in ring improves. So yeah, it's that one's really
it's it's tough for me just to so of course,
you signed ray wide, because I don't know that you
do until you get some questions answered.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it's it's good to hear his side
of things. It's also good to do some due diligence
on what went wrong and what the issues were there,
because you know, I know people were shocked. And again
the Twitter verse has their you know whatever reaction to things,
but there's often, as we've learned, Jason, a lot more
to stories than the initial you good, you bad, cheer
you meet, condemn you type reaction, which is, you know,
fine for fans, but it is if you're Tony Khan,
you got you gotta definitely look beyond that.
Speaker 2: And I will say, like, I'm not saying this about
brain particular or anyone in particular, but there I used
to work with the guy that I'm sure when he
got fired his family thought it was an outrage in
the company who made a terrible mistake and the company's
filled with bad people. That was an asshole and the story.
Speaker 1: Yeah, anything else, Jason, you want to bring up before
we wrap up here. I have no idea how long
we've gone. I'm not clock watching here.
Speaker 2: Sure, I do want to get your thoughts on qt
Marshall admitting in a digital spy piece, I believe it was.
I don't have it in front of me that when
it came time for Shaq to take the table bump
on aw dynamite, he told him it was padded under
the table. He admitted afterward that it wasn't, and Shaq
went when he landed that it wasn't. And I assume
it's all good with Shack or we wouldn't be hearing
this story j now for the first time. But seems
a little reckless to me.
Speaker 1: I can't imagine breaking even if, first of all, doing
that is dumb. That's you know, little vincent manshell, someone
in the swimming pool. It's the most funny thing. Hey,
let's let's take an aging Shack and tell them there's
patting but there isn't. This would be great, good, good initiation.
It comes across as a boneheaded thing to do. But
the lack of judgment in breaking about it after the fact,
as if like who is your audience? Who thinks that
makes you cool? Or that that was funny? Like who
out there are you do you think you're talking to?
Where that's a good idea to even bring that up yeah.
Speaker 2: I don't know if he just thinks it's a cute story.
Like you know, you're like you do with the kid,
They're like, yeah, the training wheels are still on, and
it's the way you get him to focus on her
on riding the bike and then hey, look I'm actually
doing it and you can tell them after the training
wheels are off. But I just to me, it's just
so what a risky move to take. You're dealing with
the mega celebrity who obviously has a lot of influence
at your television network, and you're telling him, yeah, there's
gonna be a pad under that. Remember what if he
gets hurt? And even if he obviously didn't, what if
he's pissed about it? And I don't think he was,
but what if, Like, that's a really bold move to make.
And I know there's I'm sure there you know the
wrestling industry, there's going to be defenders within the industry. Well,
you know he's gonna be fine. I don't take that chance.
I tell this guy exactly how it's going to be,
and it. Boy, if I'm a celebrity you're thinking about
doing something in wrestling right now, I'm like, what are
they going to do this to me. Screw that, I know,
I know, Yeah.
Speaker 1: That's pretty eye rolling, it really is, Jason. I feel
like we could just if the recorder hadn't if we
hadn't recorded this, we could just stop and do a
whole other show, but not cover any of the same material.
Like there's that much out there, you know, and including
the potent I mean, like just the potential of rains
and seen as promos the next few fridays and what
where that might go to hype SummerSlam, you know, and
then Heximo Joe and how mad he has to be
over how Karen Crossman has been treated. I mean, there's
angles of offshoots of angles that of stories we've talked about,
and then stories we haven't talked about at all. But
we got end somewhere, so we'll wrap up there and Uh,
anything that we left off, feel free to email us
and we'll include it on one of our other podcasts.
My email is Wade Keller Podcast at PW torch dot com. Uh, Jason,
your oh, and our Twitter is at p W Torch
and you can follow me on Twitter at the Wade
Keller Jason. Remind people of your Twitter.
Speaker 2: At pro wrestling Net and your website is.
Speaker 1: Pro wrestling dot net.
Speaker 2: Thank you as always, Jason, My pleasure will do it
again in a few weeks.
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