WKPWP: Interview Classic w/Ex-WWE Creative John Piermarini on Punk-Cena, Triple H-McMahon, Gewirtz-Patterson, tons of insider WWE insight
In this week’s Interview Classic podcasts, we jump back to 15 years ago this week (7-22-2011) for PWTorch editor Wade Keller interview with former WWE Creative Team member (2009-2010) John Piermarini. They discussed the C.M. Punk-John Cena match at Money in the Bank, Daniel Bryan's surprise Money in the Bank win including who in particular in power likely pushed for his win, the Triple H-Vince McMahon angle on Raw and where it might lead, and more including live calls on a variety of subjects including what changes Triple H make say, R-Truth's push, and much more. In the VIP Aftershow, must-listen insight into life after TV tapings and the how the writers, producers, and wrestlers do and don't intermingle, and whether the mood is different after good or bad PPVs and TVs. And finally, fascinating insight into the relationship former WWE booker Pat Patterson has with Raw's lead writer Brian Gewirtz and other WWE creative team members.
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/wade-keller-pro-wrestling-podcast--3076978/support.
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Speaker 2: Now. PW Torch and Speaker bring you the Wade Keller
Pro Wrestling Podcast. It's time for this week's Interview Classic
where Wade Keller Interview is one of pro Wrestling's newsmakers.
Speaker 1: On today's Wadkeller Pro Wrestling Podcast for Thursday, August thirteenth,
twenty twenty six, we jump back just over fifteen years
to a PW Torch live cast and vipx eclusive after
shown now free for Everybody, featuring John Piermurini, a former
w creative team member who was a frequent guest during
this era of our podcasts, and in this episode, we
talked about the Cumpunk John Cina match at Money of
the Bank Daniel Bryan' surprize Money in the Bank win,
including who in particular, in power likely pushed for Brian's win.
Also the Triple Ahansi man angle and ron where it
might lead, and more, including live calls on a variety
of topics including what changes Triple h might make our
truce push and more. And then in the previously VIP
exclusive after show must listen, insights into life after TV
tapings and how the writers and producers and wrestlers do
and don't intermingle, and whether the mood is different after
good or bad pay per views and TVs. And finally,
fascinating insight into the relationship of former WWE booker Pat
Patterson with Ro's lead writer Brian Kowurtz and other WWE
creative team members. This is a must list and start
to finish, really good insight from John Piermarini, fascinating stories
on this era and his time behind the scenes in WWB.
So let's get to it again. This originally live streamed
on July twenty second, twenty eleven.
Speaker 3: Here we go, weep oh Welcome two vpw Torch live cast.
This is pw torch dot Com editor Wade Keller, joined
today Friday, July twenty second, twenty eleven by former WWE
create a team member from two thousand and nine through
twenty ten. John Piermarini a regular guest Lately on the show,
regular guest co host John, How's it? How's it going
for you? Yead?
Speaker 4: Don wait?
Speaker 5: Good?
Speaker 3: Uh Man? No shortage of big subjects to catch up
with you on with this week with Money in the
Bank pay per view and UH and then the Big
Angle on Raw on Monday. I want to invite people
to get on the phone lines and get your questions
ready for John and me. The number to call is
six four six seven two one nine eight two eight.
Speaker 6: Uh.
Speaker 3: John, I'm eager to hear because I haven't talked to
you since then. What's your what's your thought on how
the specifically the CM punk situation with John Cena played
out at Money in the Bank on Sunday Nights.
Speaker 6: I thought it was great. I don't think that you've
had that feeling uh in wrestling for for quite some time.
I remember I think I was tweeting it during the
during the show where it almost felt like the the
audiences back when WW would go into the Philadelphia area
when E CW was running Rampant, And it's just that
that that feeling of anything can happen, and I you know,
I wonder if if there's gonna be something going down
and the whole just the whole feeling for that punk
match was was something that's been missing for for quite
some time.
Speaker 3: What what's your reaction to the ratings UH being a
disappointing three point two? Does that does that cause I mean,
we talked about this last week too, does it cause
a little pause in thinking this really got a small
segment defends excited, but a few are feeling like this
isn't for them.
Speaker 6: I think that I think that there's two ways to
look at it. I think from the wwevenstrict Man standpoint,
I think he's looking at it as people aren't interested,
or maybe hand punk no one cares about seating punk
like I tried to tell you guys for five years,
or you know. I think on the other hand, I
just think that people are just I think people stayed
with it as long as they could, and I think
that they just kind of felt like, I'm moving on
and they found whatever it was that that got them
to move on the majority of it, it's probably UFC.
And then I think, you know, the people that that
didn't go to UFC a few years ago that stuck around.
I think I don't know where they went, but it
seems surprising because that that story was I know we've
discussed it in the past, where it's you kind of
you keep watching and you can't stop because you're waiting
for that next moment, that next n OFO or Hogan
Turntel or Attitude Era or you're waiting for that next moment.
You always stick around, and I feel like that Punk
story kind of gave that feeling again, and I think
that I don't know, I just wonder if people just
think that they're gonna be disappointed because of the product
that they were given and just kind of feel like
they're not going to do anything with it, or I
think the other thing, too, is that when you've done
stories like John Cena getting fired and then showing up
the next week and then essentially really never having a
consequence to him being fired, I think that people just
kind of don't anticipate you doing anything with these stories,
and they probably figure, you know, as much as maybe
that shoot promo by Punk got people to go, was
that real, I don't think it was enough to get
people to say I got to see what's gonna happen.
I think people just figure by next week you'll probably
punk on TV again, And I don't know if you will,
but I think that probably the fearing. And then I
think that once you keep funk on TV, then it's
just gonna be all right. Well, it's just another normal storyline.
Speaker 3: Now, and something that's I'm struggling with as I try
to process this angle and rather tepid hard data related
to it. And I'm a believer in Nielsen. I believe
in statistics. I believe that if you put a million,
or if you put ten thousand red red marbles into
a jar and one thousand blue marbles into a jar
and you pull out one hundred of them only, I
think you mix them up really well and you pull
out only one hundred, I think you're going to have
a representative sample. I mean, I really do believe you
can take a small sample of something and it'll represent
a larger sample. And Nielsen has from the stories I've read,
done good upgrades. It's not perfect, but I think within
a small reasonable variance, I totally believe Neilson numbers. I mean,
I just that it just it plays out accurately That's
why they can call elections ahead of time too in
most cases. So that said, I'm not making an excuse that, well,
apparently Nielsen boxes aren't in the homes of cool people,
or aren't in the homes of people who like good wrestling.
They're only in the homes of people who like bad wrestling,
or you know. I don't buy that. So what I'm
struggling with is if I if we accept the Nielsen
ratings and we look at the pattern, I'm still they
were able to pop ratings when things capture people's attention. Now, granted,
it's somewhat seasonal in the in that the ratings pops
when they went to three eight, three eight, three nine,
three seven during a four week stretch at the end
of February and the beginning of March that was leading
into WrestleMania season, and then they dropped off one week,
but then they went back up to a three eight,
a three eight, and a three to five in the
heart of WrestleMania season. So they can pop a rating.
But the three point two this week is right in
the same neighborhood as January seventeenth, a three point three
January twenty fourth, to three three February seventh, A three
three February fourteenth, the three point one. So it's it's
just kind of in the range of what you expect
with run of the Middle episodes. And so that's what
I struggle with, is do if this brought in some
fans and had to also have turned off others? And
I even think, and you touched on this, John, the
ones who are who like this angle, I think they
like it for a reason that is unsustainable for WWE
to carry over week after week. If you run an
angle and the only reason people are excited about it
is they think it's real, and then the only way
for WWE to actually make money on it is to
fold it into the storylines. Those people who like something
because it's real by definition are going to be frustrated
in a week or two or three. And if in
the process you confuse the majority of your people who
don't know why Cold Caban is an inside reference and
don't know some of those things Pulk is talking about,
and they're just scared that the title's going to be
taken away or that Sceneo's going to be fired, and
they get kind of disgruntled. I think you end up
with a wash, and I think that's kind of what
we're looking at here as a wash. Yeah, and that's
how I look at it.
Speaker 6: I think another thing you could do too is touching
on that portion of the audience that you said that go,
who's cold cabana? What is he talking about? I think
that you you've confused them even more when you have
for the first time ever and a lot of the
audience that knows at least the storyline standpoint of Triple
H being somewhat connected to Vincercmann through Stephanie, heard Triple
H's music, saw him coming out in a suit, and
you know, these fans are probably the people that started
watching when d X was, you know, saying Vincent Man
likes cock Yeah, and I think they're looking at it
going wait, Triple H is walking out in a huge
boarded director, he's in charge.
Speaker 7: What earn is this?
Speaker 6: I think that as cool as that is for people
like us to go, Okay, we get what's what's happening here,
and this is a legitimate story and we can follow it.
I feel like the audience that they pushed away are
the people that would understand this, and that the audience
that they kept is shitting here going I have absolutely
no clue what's happening. They're throwing triple H in here.
I don't know what it means, and I think they're
confusing those people. And I think you hit the nail
on the head with that one.
Speaker 3: So from your experience in WWE on the creative side
for nearly two years, did you watch what's going on
here and think there's something that they could do that
would make this all come together for both audiences. It
would satisfy those who only liked it because they thought
it was real and that punk wasn't co opted and
scripted or you know, borderline scripted. You know, like, well,
you know, go out there and you know what you
can say and surprise us, but don't go too far,
you know, I mean, it was all cooptive for those
who need it to be somewhat real, and then for
those who are confused. How do you give both audiences
what you need to you can grow the ratings?
Speaker 6: I don't. I don't really know the answer to that,
because I think that you need to. They didn't spend
enough time with the backstory here. And I'll just say this,
and I'm going to keep my words very careful that
Triple H taking over control of the WWE is is
not a fresh idea. And you know, so I think
that they're trying to take They're trying to take ideas
that perhaps they had at a different time and trying
to put everything together here. And I think that the
reason why things may look a little chaotic on TV.
And you know, I've been told this from specific people,
is just that Vince is at a point right now
where he just wants to cooperating. I don't know what's happening,
Let's just try something. And I think he gets like this,
you know, every few years. I think, whether it was
with WCW that what they would take over on the ratings,
or whether you know, he felt like he had competition,
or whatever the case may be, he always gets to
the point where he goes, fine, take the handcuffs off,
let's try something, and I'm gonna see if it works.
And I don't. I mean, there's a way of making
sense of everything that they put on TV. But that
just goes to all, right, well, you know, we never
really actually came out and told you Triple H is
my son in law. Sure, we've we've we've dabbled a
little bit, but you know that character that came out
on Monday was never seen before. And I think that
you need to have something here where even you in
the storyline standpoint, have to have people ask the same
questions that people at home are asking, right and as
you know, for people like me and you to to
to watch and say have As stupid as it may sound,
but just to throw an option out there, John Cena
comes out, Wait what you're You're part of the board
of directors. How did this happen? And yeah, I remember
you drugged Stephanie to get married, but wait a minute,
I stayed married. I mean, you've got to somehow bring
this back to a storyline. But it just sounds to
me like even with what happened at Comic Poms, this
is just gonna turn into you know, and I hope
I'm wrong. CM punk lay Mysterio to determine who the
real champion is. You know, Triple Eight's tossed DM punkin
to come back and saying, you know that championship you
means nothing now because look, Mysterio defends it every week,
so yours yours meaningless unless you come back and defend it. Okay,
I'll come back.
Speaker 3: We'll do it.
Speaker 6: And that's just that's just what I think everyone's expecting.
An An, So did you do that? You take everything
that CM Punk has become, same with Nexus, second thing
a contracts. You took away everything you spent those few
weeks investing in them. And I think that you can
find a way to make Punks still this rebel still
not even maybe a part of WWE. But you know what,
I'll come back.
Speaker 3: I'll prove a point.
Speaker 6: I'll beat your champion for one night and then and
you build this for a certain amount of time before
you know, you find a way to get you know,
Punk to agree to come back to the active roster.
Maybe it's after he loses the championship, or you know,
maybe you give him that. You get Stone pulled to
come out on TV and say, look, you know, I'll
get this guy back. He's been talking craps to me
on Twitter, he's been doing office, he's you know.
Speaker 3: Blah blah blah blah blah.
Speaker 6: Why don't don't me and him do this at WrestleMania.
And then you get Punk to say, I'm not passing
that up.
Speaker 3: I'm coming back.
Speaker 6: But that's all down the line. I just you have
to you have to, I think, let this storyline develop
and breathe and let people kind of invest in it
before you quickly, and it just seems like they're going
so quick and do Okay, let's get punked back. Now,
Triple hs is gonna go at him. We're gonna get
Mysterio the title, and then we're gonna get Punk back
within a week, or Punk doesn't let any champion and
then he interferes in the match, and then if he
runs off again, fly and if he sticks around after that,
now you're just like, all right, well that was a
cool two to three weeks.
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Speaker 3: Dude, in your opinion, do you think Vince McMahon is
going to be off TV for an extended period of
time or if you think that they're playing it by
ear and he could be back to be the counterweight
to whatever direction for Bladrows, Yeah, you know.
Speaker 7: I don't.
Speaker 6: I don't think that I could tell you one for sure,
but I can tell you that when when I was
on Creative for the whole two years, Vince wanted off
of TV, hit me off permanently. Don't ever pitch an
idea for me unless it's something that is just gigantic.
Speaker 8: Do not put me on TV.
Speaker 6: Yet you'd see him pop up, you know, every few months,
and I guess that's just Brian's way of convincing him
to come on, and he wouldn't really do anything. And
I used to always wonder, creatively, You've told me I
can't pitch Vina McMahon, yet you have him come out
and just announce, you know, a stipulation for a match
the next week. That's just what was so confusing about
being uncreative. But just I can only go off what
I heard some Vince, and I know that he wanted
to find a way to get himself off QG. I
know that Nexus attacking them was one way. I know
that they did it before too, with like the million
dollar giveaway thing and then the thing drops on them
in all these different ways to get.
Speaker 3: Him off TV.
Speaker 6: I just think maybe this is his way, and I
think that he has to come back, but I think
that maybe you'll just watch her Bates run the w
W lee for the time ging.
Speaker 3: You know, I kind of looked at the next storyline
you brought up, and this storyline now as or it
would Seeumpunk specifically more so than Hunter, although it might
apply to Hunter. It's sort of like deciding, Hey, I
got this cool airplane and I just discovered this really
cool island on this map. Let's fly to the island.
That'll be really fun. And then they land on isolated
island with no communication with the world, and they realized
they only had enough fuel to get there. I agree, Yeah,
it's like, we gotta have that second chapter work thout.
Speaker 6: You know, a lot with Nexus too, was there was
a there was a long term plan for Nexus that
I think that as the weeks went on. You know,
let's say we showed up for Raw. You know, in
week two of the story, we had what we wanted
to do for week two. But let's say that there
was eighteen weeks.
Speaker 3: Of what we wanted to do.
Speaker 6: We show up for week two, but then it get tweaked. Well,
if you tweak week two, the dominoes are going to
fall from three to eighteen.
Speaker 4: You can't.
Speaker 6: Everything is done for a purpose. So when you tweak two,
now you got to tweak three. But because of what
you did in two, that might drastically change what you
have to do going forward. You started then go booking
Nexus week to Week two, which took in the long
term plan, which is, yeah, we want to get here,
but the way that we got there is just so
different that I don't even know if it's gonna make
sense when we get there. And I feel like with this,
I think that's how they're taking it again. And I
think they have when the moment that they decided we're
gonna have Punk go on the air and he's gonna
cut the shoe promo and in ten weeks or whatever
it is, this is going to be the culmination of
the story. And I think that they're kind of keeping
to this that based on what you've seen so far,
it's been probably step by step because it doesn't look
like there's been too many changes to it just based
on there isn't much that they're doing with it. But
at some point, to your point, they're going to run
into this this you know, situation where they go, all right, well,
what do we do about this? Week?
Speaker 9: Got Punk out, he's.
Speaker 6: Got the title, we got Triple J, but we have
stereo versus viz. But what are we going to do
about it? And that's when you sit for six hours
and get out an hour before the show, and you
try to figure out exactly how you're gonna get out
of Mysterio versus miss and I'm sure they have to
have a way. I think it's gonna it's it's probably
week two week booking, because I think that when Vince
when you write, when you write this story and you
sit down with Vince and you go, here's week one
through eighteen, and let's just say it ends with Punk
getting a new fighting stone Cold at Russelomnia and defending
the title against them and whatever it may be. When
you pitch that to Vince and he loves it.
Speaker 9: Great, we got this.
Speaker 6: This is gonna be great. And you talk to Punk,
you get Stone Cold on board, you do all these
great things. The stick can't you show up on Monday?
Or the second Kevin Dunn gets a hold of that
script and the jet and he goes, Vince, I don't
get this. Why are we doing this?
Speaker 2: What is this?
Speaker 6: Why are you putting Zach Ryder in here?
Speaker 8: What is that?
Speaker 6: And then Vince, just the second that Kevin questions anything,
it's well, well, we're changing it. And then you ask
creative to come up with something. Well, we we took
say two or three weeks to really formulate this long
term plan, and now we're sitting in a production meeting
where it's going, hey Brian or creative, what are we
going to do because we're not doing this this week?
Speaker 3: Okay?
Speaker 6: Well, and then people just throwing throwing out ideas.
Speaker 10: Producers start throwing.
Speaker 6: Out ideas, and Vince just picks the one that he
likes the most. Kevin, you like it, Yeah, I like it. Boom,
we're going with that. Now you have to restructure a
completely new story based off someone's pitching a creative meeting,
and maybe maybe it doesn't drastically change it, but sometimes
it really does. So you know, I'm curious to see
how much of this stays on track and how much
you can kind of see as hurry up and let's
let's change this because you know, the one thing too Wade,
And I don't know what the ratings shop looked like
in the last two to three weeks leading up to
money in the bank and then this coming Monday, but
you may seen miss depl and Vince.
Speaker 9: Going, well, punk as hopeless of this at working, but.
Speaker 6: Let's we'll get Punk back in it at some point.
But that's failing jump ship and he seems stand to
want to jump ship the second there's a leak, Let's
not try to patch the leak, just order a new boat,
and let's jump on that new boat.
Speaker 3: And four perspective. This Monday show, and this is a
qualified compliment, was the best ratings since May twenty third,
But we had July fourth, which was a two point
four or the week before, which was I think part
of the punk storyline. For sure, you know, you have
to say credit or if you get I had it
for three point two two, barely getting credit because people
were disappointed by that rating from what I saw from
talking to WWV people Tuesday night after the SmackDown, saving
if he even gets credit for what at least it
was better than what it had been. He gets credit
for the two point nine and one the week before
that also, or the storyline does not just punk. And
the ratings before that were three point one three working backwards,
three point oh eight, three point oh five, three point
oh seven. There was that three point four two I
talked about, but before that three point one, three point two,
three point five, three point five, and now we're kind
of getting back in the WrestleMania season, so you know,
it's just basically the ballpark. It's just an average rating
of what they've been doing before we get the calls.
John just a to take a sharp turn here. I
got a cold, another July July cold after hanging out
with your ex co work, well, not hanging out with
but being around him and meeting them, your your ex
co workers, the writing team Dave for poor and different
production people and other writers. Are they jermy people?
Speaker 6: Well, these guys never get me sleep, and they're on
airplanes twice three times a week. So, uh, you know,
there was always somebody sick. Luckily I only caught it once.
But yeah, you all if if you were around them,
they probably had those little fleas right above their head.
They just kind of came over to you and infested you.
Speaker 3: While I was around the wrestlers too, and and uh
agent's and had a nice time talking to Pat Patterson too,
So I'm it's not just the writing people. Something about
them just made me think they were to blame. So
and because you're on the show and used to work
with them, I thought you could add particular insight into
whether there are journey people. And they're the reason that
I got it.
Speaker 6: There's always somebody sick on creative there's not one person,
it's the other end. And there's never a week where
someone is not sick.
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, all right, let's uh, let's shift to the
full onuth. We've got a lot of people on hold,
but I definitely wanted to establish blame.
Speaker 2: For for that.
Speaker 3: All right, let's go to uh Erico eight one seven. First,
thanks for calling, Please stake your name and where you're
from anyway? And Johns Josh from Texas and I have
a couple of questions. One one is how many changes
do you see Triple H making? And personally I would want.
Speaker 11: Him to get rid of this whole general manager idea.
And cecently, how does it feel talking to the creative team?
I mean, is it just like talking to me and
you are talking? Are they kind of has that kind
of power about him and says I'm famous and you're
not here?
Speaker 3: You go and are you to me that question? Josh?
Speaker 7: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Oh they're intolerable. They were drunk, they were they were insulting. No, no, no,
I'm kidding, No, No, they were nice. There there was
no there was nothing. I mean, there wasn't like we
had a discussion on inside information. I mean I was
with different people than they were different people, but we
definitely introduced ourselves and Ronjin Sing Dave Papoor was friendly, says,
you hate my character, You've ripped on me, and I
said yeah, and then he made a joke about it
and that was that and he was cool. So no, actually,
and there are other people there too, and they were yeah, No,
they didn't, they didn't have an attitude. I mean, I'd
say every everybody I met there were young, there were
people I'd met before, people I hadn't. There were younger
wrestlers and older wrestlers, and they were uh, classy and
respectful and well de Malnko shot me a death stare,
but I'm totally done that to a lot of people,
but I always get the death stare from Dean. But
but other than that, everybody was actually seriously very nice
and and I mean, and that's generally been the case,
although I'd say that there was less paranoia to like
shake hands with me. I mean, it's not like they're
sitting here still in any inside information or trade secrets.
But just there was a time, you know, twenty years
ago where wrestlers would be like if they knew me,
they'd seen me they'd they'd have to pretend they didn't
know me, you know, because they'd fear that word would spread.
And I mean that that's just kind of now in
social media, that's kind of people aren't as protective or
worried as I think they used to be about that
kind of thing. But who knows, Maybe everybody who showkansa
with me on Tuesday, and I'll be laid off later
today and then I'll feel guilty. I don't know. Well, anyway, John,
what do you think of the changes for PLATI make?
And Josh, I assume you make that statement in the
spirit of knowing that sensic Man is actually still in charge. Yeah, okay,
although it.
Speaker 6: Seems like a majority of the people that contact me
on Twitter seem to want to convince me that this
is real. But the Triple AH thing, I think I said.
Somebody asked me on Twitter what I thought he was
going to do, and I said that I predict that
he would probably get rid of this raw GM at
this point. It just seems like from a storyline standpoint,
if a Triple H is making decisions, I don't think
you need the raw GM. Although I could also see
a play out where the raw GM attempts to make
decisions and Triple H is making decisions, and then you
get that conflict between the two and either he fires
them on TV or either we get to the point
where the raw GM decides I'm gonna come to Triple H.
But as far as other changes, you know, that's the
thing that you really don't know because creatively, you don't
know what direction they're going. And just because you put
Triple H in charge doesn't mean that creative changes on everything.
Speaker 3: Because Kevin Dunn, Kevin Donn and Vincent Mann still have
the same power they had, And I want to I
think it's worth clarifying because some people haven't listened to
my updates this week or or are just tuting into
this is their only podcast a week. Triple H has
been shadowing Vince McMahon for about a year, really closely.
Like everywhere Vince goes a lot of the time, majority
of the time, Triple H is right there shadowing and
learning about how the business operates. And that is not
being done because Triple H has nothing better to do,
and he's on an internship and he hopes to work
somewhere else someday. Taking this experience with him to another company.
This is Vincent Man grooming Triple H for the inevitability
that Triple H has a chosen one. Seane McMahon left
the company and Triple H has the aptitude and the interest.
So Triple H is going to be the guy unless
something changes that eventually takes over some of what Vince's doing.
And from what I've heard and talked to people about,
it's already happened a little bit. There's a few situations
where people are like, Wow, Vince isn't at this meeting,
or Vince isn't doing this and Hunter is, and Vince's
stepped back a little bit to kind of see what
it's like because he's very used to being in control
and being part of certain things for ten fifteen, twenty
twenty five years. He's hading some power over to Triple H.
But it's STI Vincent Man's company. So the storyline is
actually kind of ahead of real life, way ahead of it,
but it's paralleling something that is in the process of happening.
So I just want to clarify that for people. Vince
is still in charge, but this is based on reality.
Hunter is the heir of parent and he is getting
trained in Go ahead, John, Yeah, let me add.
Speaker 4: Some more to that.
Speaker 6: Yeah, probably towards the last said I was there, Uh
Triple H like you were saying, was shadowing Vince. If
if Vince wasn't at a production meeting, uh, Triple H
or Stephanie would run the production meeting. Triple H would
sit in Vince's office with him. Would if you came
to get a promo approved, you sat there with Vince
and Triple H and you cut the promo to both
of them, and Triple H would say, would go first,
say what he wanted change, and then Vince would okay,
if that sounds good, go ahead or okay, yeah, let
me add this or and you almost at times to
see Vince sort of mentoring Triple H in situations like that,
or Triple H would ask Vince, you know, hey, well
you know John just said, why don't we do this, this, this,
and this? Well what about doing this? Vincent? And Vince thinks,
oh yeah, okay, yeah.
Speaker 3: We'll do that.
Speaker 6: What you're seeing on TV is a storyline is a
sign that mimics what will probably happen in real life,
but also a storyline that a pitch that has been
developed for quite a while.
Speaker 12: Yep, I'm Chris Maitland.
Speaker 13: I'm Justin McClellan.
Speaker 12: We host Wrestling Coast to Coast, a podcast on independent wrestling.
Speaker 13: Every week Chris and I review a different show. We're
talking about important topics from around the indie wrestling world.
Speaker 12: Learn about the hot underground stars and the future main eventors.
For anyone else, you can reach us at Torchcoast to
Coast at gmail dot com and me on Blue Sky
at Mind of Maitland.
Speaker 13: You can reach me at Blue Sky at Justin McClelland.
Speaker 12: Find the show on your PW Torch Daily Cast podcast feed,
search PW Torch on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you
listen to podcasts.
Speaker 13: Also stream the latest shows on pwtorch dot com.
Speaker 3: So yeah, but I do think creatively, John, it's a
chance for Vince McMahon to say, all right, let's try
some new things because we have a storyline reason for
trying some changes, but have been done as resistant to change.
Man is resistant to change. The results so far and
they probably have some indication already, and I haven't heard
some indication of whether money the bank did better buy,
so they've got you know, different people in the cable
industry who report to them what the trend.
Speaker 6: H Yeah, yeah, they've got so at least by the
next at least by the next TV. But sometimes we
would know by SmackDown at least initial reaction.
Speaker 3: Yep. And so I think even though I haven't heard that,
and I mean, Dave Melter is great at getting you know,
he's got some good sources in the pay per view industry.
And I haven't heard if he's come out with any
estimate yet that he's heard, and I haven't heard from
anyone in WWE. But yeah, anytime now, world will start
getting out did money to bank you better than expected?
And that's going to be interesting because that probably will
to a certain extent, dictate things. But TV ratings, John
are the most important thing to Vincickman because without TV,
without a happy USA network, there is no TV show
to promote pay per views. So he's got to keep
USA happy. And the fact is this TV revenue is
right in the ballpark of pay per view, and it's
probably more reliable in the long run than pay per view.
As so the idea that I'll, you know, give up
TV ratings to buy to sell a pay per view
were it's that might have been the case eight years ago,
you know, in a different or we're sure fifteen years ago,
but we're not there now. You have to serve both masters.
So I think if Triple H was from a storyline
Whereason going to do some things differently, the fact that
the seam punk angle hasn't resonated with the mainstream masses
as much as it did with the social media, the
fervent social media fans who are all over everything, I
think that's gonna that's enough to make Kevin Donnamisaman's second
guests any going this direction too much longer because they
don't want to risk the ratings.
Speaker 6: Yeah, and one thing, and this is just I has
always been my theory, and maybe maybe I'm right, and
maybe I'm completely wrong, but I used to always you know,
you get guys they're currently doing it with, you know,
Drew MacIntyre, but you had a guy at first, or Swagger,
who you didn't really utilize and name.
Speaker 3: You put a title on him.
Speaker 6: And then you want people to look at him as
a legitimate champion, and over time I think people will
will do that. But you know, people don't forget and
they feel like Punk was not necessarily this would have
been the first thing I say, by the way to
creative or productive meeting. Would ratings pop up about this?
And if the blame were to go to Cempunk, you know,
you sit here and I go, for the last two years,
you've never really established you know, CM Punk as a
let alone the top heel, really a huge threat or
a major star and thing. You put him in this
prominent position and you wonder why it's not, you know,
blowing up the ratings or getting humongous pay per view guys.
You get the people that care about Punk to care,
but the masses look at it and go, oh, CM
Punk is you know doing this and this and this. Yeah,
I remember a month ago he was getting knocked out
by Big Show and Kane and having trouble getting nexus
to win anything, you know, And that's that's what I
used to always go to. And it's like, you tear
these guys down and then the next week you want
to present them as nature stars and you wonder why
they're not perceived that way.
Speaker 3: I think that's the best point you or I have
made today is the the fact that this wasn't planned
ahead longer is a problem, and we look at when
they decided who was it that that got a push
come recently, and our truth is an example. They were
doing nothing with them, treating him as just lower mid card,
and then all of a sudden, Vince says, hey, you know,
let's push this guy like him. You know, something happens
in Vinska, and all of a sudden, you present him
to fense as a world title contender, and what they
remember is him just kind of being a mid card
guy with a gimmick and changing music and losing more
matches than anyone. It's it's so frustrating. It would be
great if they could, if they had the discipline to say,
we're gonna do something to see on punks. His contract's
coming up. But three months ago they did more with him. Now,
I'll give him credit. At least he did in that
first promo, John, he cited two or three very big
clean wins he had in the two weeks leading up
to two three weeks leading up to it, and I
think that helped. But I think it showed that they're
conscientious of that that he got the clean win against
Ray on the pay per view, and we're like why
did he get a clean win against Ray? He's on
his way out of the company. That's weird. You know,
I'm curious that he resigned. Well, it's because they were
building up to him getting this push, and so it
made sense in retrospect, but they needed to do that
for longer. And that's part of the problem with you know,
booking week to week like this.
Speaker 6: Yeah, and I think I think initially people just assumed, oh,
he got a win over Ray so that they can
set him up to get a title match and you know,
utilize him before he goes out, which is what they
did with the last guy that went out, which was Pakista.
And again, I think that you also look at it
as their history is catching up with them. And I
think that you know, back in the day with the
Attitude era, I think that you caught people going, I
wonder what's gonna happen because every time I thought something
was going to happen, something different happened. And I think
that's what Russo still thinks, you know, And it hurts
Russo now in TNA because you go, Okay, I know
it's going to be the opposite of what I think,
So you kind of have to balance it out. But
I think with what Bump was doing is you're going,
all right, well you did it with Batista, you did
it with all these guys or Jericho. I think at
one point too, when when you make a public someone's
leaving or if I catch when someone's leaving, they're losing yep.
And I think that no matter what you do, you've
trained people to believe this is what WWE does, and
then they figure I'm not going to invest my time
in it or even money in it, because that's probably
what you're gonna do. And then I think when you
start training people that that's not gonna happen. I think
that's when you start getting people to start investing more
in this. And I think that just people are trained
to know. I got excited about Nexus, I got excited
about say, the Vince car Crasher, whatever it may be,
and I was disappointed, and I'm going to be disappointed again.
So you know, hey, call me if they do something great.
If not, you know, I'll check it on YouTube. If
Punk goes out there and cuts a great promo, yep.
Speaker 3: Yep. All right, you were listening to the PW Torch
live cast. It's Friday, July twenty second, twenty eleven. I'm
a way Keller, editor and publisher of the Pro Wrestling
Torch newsletter, PW Torch dot com and the PW Torch
Free apps in the iTunes app Store, the Apple App
Store and also Android Marketplace, and also we're in the
Amazon App Store and soon to be in other app stores.
I think I should run Verizon bcast too, so check
that out if you've got a Verzon phone. John Errini
for those who are just joining us as a former
WWE creative team member, lending insight into what might be
going on in WWE with these storylines, and how storylines
like this play out, and who's in and who has,
what the history is, and how the different personalities interact
with each other, and why things might be happening the
way they're happening. And we are taking your phone calls,
and I'm going to make that plural by going to
our second caller now, Eric code six oh eight. Thanks
for holding so lung. We stay your name and where
you're from.
Speaker 14: Hey guys, it's a mass fanatic from Wisconsin.
Speaker 3: Hey Matt, how's it going?
Speaker 6: Oh?
Speaker 3: Pretty good?
Speaker 14: You know, a little warm of sorts, No I'm.
Speaker 3: Sorry I talked over you. No digs at me having
a cold.
Speaker 14: By the way, no ninety degrees in Wade Killer has
a cold. I don't I don't understand it.
Speaker 3: But uh as a writer, WWE riders come on their.
Speaker 14: Jeremy right, you're on that punk kid Michael Cole, which
is backwards baseball cast.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I heard, but but mad, since you brought that up, John,
did I say? I don't know if you heard the
story yet. I'm sitting there outside on Seventh Street in
downtown Minneapolis, having a drink with Pat Patterson talking about
Minnesota wrestling history and up walk two punk kids, like
skateboarding looking kids. But you know, I shouldn't say that.
One look like he was dressed to go club and
the other one looked like some punk skateboard kid. And
I'm like, oh, they're gonna bug Pat. I'm having a
nice little talk here. And then I look in the
first guy dressed nicely like he's gonna, you know, go
out to a nice club or a nice restaurant, Josh Matthews.
I'm like, oh, okay, that's cool. And then I turned
my head to the left to see who's this skateboarding
punk kid with him some baseball cat on backwards, making
that kind of you know, like how twenty twenty or
fifteen year olds or twenty year olds kind of walk
like they're on the street school and it's Michael freaking Coal.
Yeah is that isolated? I only saw him for like
four seconds. I didn't want to stare. But is that
what he's like all the time outside the ring?
Speaker 8: Oh?
Speaker 6: God, yeah, that guy's got I don't want to get
into but he.
Speaker 3: Such fuck yeah whatever, Yeah, I know, amazing guy.
Speaker 6: You know what's so funny is he's the guy who
wants to walk around like the biggest bully, the guy
who wants to call everyone a DWEP, a door nerd
all this stuff, and this guy is the epitome of
every single one of those, and yet he thinks he's
just the coolest guy that walks the planet.
Speaker 8: Wow.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I got I got to see that up close
in personal. And that's not how he was when I
met him like five sixty years ago. I mean, he
was a very different person. I didn't get that impression
at all. But anyway, Matt, you call what what's on
your mind?
Speaker 14: Okay, Yeah, I guess I don't know if you were
privy to like the you know, ro Oh I pay
per view by rates because you know, private company and everything.
But you know we're talking about people think that the
you know, money in the bank could do this huge
buyer rate, and it just seems like they're appealing to
an audience that, you know, ro Oh from all of
everything I've heard, has never you know, broke five thousand buys.
So if you think, hey, everybody who's ever bought an
roh pay per view you know, pulls up and buys
money in the bank, I mean it might have only
went up ten thousand. Yeah, you know, the audience they're
going to, I think this could be as telling Travis
on the East Coast cast, this could be the uh,
you know, biggest tired of pay per view in w
PWE history.
Speaker 3: With the audience they went as, you know, what you
hope Matt, and I'll throw to throw to John on this.
What you would hope is that what appeals to four
thousand or three thousand people who like ro Oh would
appeal to even more people that they knew about it.
And since this was promoted as money in the bank
and the masses on USA network side, you would hope
that there would be an exponential reaction to a show
of that quality or marketed the way it was. But
you're right, I mean, through social networking and social media.
If that's your only way to spread the word about
a show, as opposed to, you know, trying to convey
it on on USA network, then you are looking at,
you know, only a few thousand people making a difference. Jeman.
Speaker 6: Guide to that, John, Well, why why does everyone thinks
that they're trying to appeal to ro oh audience?
Speaker 3: Well, I think his point is is that the style
of wrestling, money in the bank style and the punk
storyline talking insider may be a field quote. The Internet
fans and the Internet fans are also probably somewhat incorrectly
thought to be totally into what R always presents. Matt,
you want to elaborate on that.
Speaker 14: Well, yeah, I mean, it just seems like everybody's all
this roch invasion is going to happen. And I'm not
saying that's the whole Internet crowd, but you would think that,
you know, there's the Internet crowd that watches WWE a lot,
and then there's you know, the Internet crowd that somehow
hates everything WWE and TNA and loves ROH like Sean Radikin.
I like Sean's stuff, but I don't think he's ever
seen a independent show. He hasn't recommended. And just because
it's you know, it's the little guy, I guess. So
that's why I kind of lumped that in that. Hey,
they're appealing to that because I think the WWE fans
that are quote Internet fans are either going to order
it anyway or see it by other means. And like
I said, I don't know how much the buyer rate's
going to jump. People were you know, predicting two hundred thousand,
which maybe two hundred thousand extra people might have found
a stream for it. And the second thing, wait, I
know you're at the SmackDown tapings and just small spoiler
that you know everybody's probably heard, but Daniel Brian says
he's cashing in at WrestleMania any chance you know.
Speaker 3: That they go.
Speaker 14: If he actually goes that far, they can give the
r o H crowd a you know, like another wet
dream for the year and see him Pump gets the
SmackDown title by that time and those guys can have
a match.
Speaker 3: A good question I'm gonna bring that up with you anyway,
John Daniel Brian winning money in the bank, take what
Matt said and add anything you want to do that.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I was.
Speaker 6: I was shocked that he won. But that's also at
Toski's guy, So you know, I think it. I think
at some point, I think Vince is at the point
where they're like, you guys want to try something. If
you think something's going to make a change, then tell
me what it's going to be. All right, Well let's
go with Daniel Brian.
Speaker 9: And I know it had to.
Speaker 6: Pay Vince to give him money in the bank. That
you know, I think he's taking a chance. I am
absolutely not. Even I am more shocked that they are
going with I'm cashing in at WrestleMania. I something tells
me that's not happening or or it's going to be
a triple threat match. Because if you look at if
you look at SmackDown now and made you probably because
you were just at the taping so you have the
names more fresh in your head. I mean, who who
would he face it WrestleMania in the marquee matchup perspective? Uh,
Christian Shadana Bart.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't know. I mean, it's a long journey
between now and then.
Speaker 6: Maybe it's that they wouldn't want to put Randy Orton
in that spot.
Speaker 3: They could, I mean, but you know, you better know
that you better be willing to deal with whatever the
crowd reaction is to that, and I'm not sure what
that would be.
Speaker 1: Before pushing play on the way Teller Pro Wrestling post shows,
check out pw torch dot com and our TV review section.
Gim through a full rundown of the TV show if
you didn't see it. That's your way to get an
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all waiting for you at PW torch dot com.
Speaker 6: Yeah. I the thing that frustrates me the most is
that that was my pitch for me is and there
was such a great story that was going with cashing
in as the Comanian, and then you turn that down
and you for I guess, you know, like the caller said,
the roh audience will hate it. But really, Daniel Brian,
you have not presented this guy in a way that
would make anyone go I got to order WrestleMania twenty eight.
Now to the caller's point, sure those tens out people
like I tweeted on during Money in the Bank after
sort of everything kind of happened, I said, the internet came.
I mean, yeah, the Internet is loving this, but that's
not to me to your WWE audience, that's not translating
into people going, man, we're gonna put you know, one
point five million buys now on WrestleMania. Because you add
Daniel Bryan into the mix in the main event, it's
gonna be the greatest WrestleMania ever. I don't know if
I would even think that he's gonna get there, and
and if he does, I just I see it being
more so as all right, we'll put him in there.
But you know, we're still gonna put Orton in the
mix with Christian or with Seamus, and it's going to
be triple threat.
Speaker 3: Yeah, all right, Matt, thanks for call. Let's keep home
for calls. We have nine people on a hold who
want to get through, so we're gonna move a little
more rapid fire in the last thing. That's the show. John,
are you able to stand with up a little bit
in the after after show so we can take some
more calls at the bottom of the hour. John, Yeah, yeah, yeah,
I can stay on. Okay, So just let people know
if you on hold, stick with us, because we'll try
to take some calls. We won't be people will not
be able to listen to us live on streaming, but
you can listen in the archives, or you can call
up and listen in live even without participating by calling
the call in number six four six seven to one
nine A two eight. But the full show will be
available in the blogtalk Radio archives and on iTunes shortly
after we conclude. Just a big thank you to everybody.
We're number two right now at blogtalk Radio of all
internet shows, not just sports, for the second most popular
show out of forty three ninety two shows. We're number two,
so thank you for doing that. In iTunes, two of
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people who listen on PW torch dot com. So thanks
to everybody for continuing to spread the word and helping
us grows. It's a lot of fun doingments, and it's
great to see that so many people keep joining us
every week. Let's go to calling number three area code
three one four. Thanks for calling. Please face your name
and where you're from. This is Dan from Saint Louis. Dan,
what's going on now?
Speaker 15: A lot I got, I get a couple of pustions.
I'll just give one because I know you got a
lot of callers on or whatever. But it's really more
of a comment. But one of the things I was
going to mention that I had a problem with on
na Is raw was and it goes back to kind
of what John's talking about about, you know, presenting characters,
you know, so that's handled by them. I think that
our Truth's character was really brilliant for the last you know,
a couple of months, ever since he turned and did
the whole little change thing. But it seems like ever
since the capital punishment mash, you know, and he walt
there and he's kind of training off ault bit and
I just don't see why they didn't stick him in
the main event of that raw against in Stereo or
against Miz because you know, that really would have added
a lot to the whole conspiracy theory, because you know,
Vincent Fann comes out, you know, screws him over about
another chance about getting the title, and you know you
could really kind of run with that and get some
heat behind another character.
Speaker 3: Just kind of what your thoughts on that. Yeah, John,
my voice was given out a little bit, so I'll
just throw to you on that one.
Speaker 6: Yeah, that's that's the w W one oh one. Our
Truth is scheduled to be in the main event. Let's
do everything we can to make his character compelling and
put them in a compelling story and and uh oh,
we've got c Funk in the main event next month.
We ignore our truth And that's essentially what's happened. And
I think you make a great point. That's where to
the point of our truth, you know, not being in
the main event against Ramisterio and being able to play
off the conspiracy stuff. That's the lack of attention that
Creative puts into anything that's not in the main event.
Not to say that, And let me make this really clear.
Where are people on Creative that have the same thought
process as me, as you, that are detail oriented. But
the problem is is that you could pitch our truth,
you could be uncreative that exact pitch, and you can go, look,
this will be great for the conspiracy theory. It doesn't
matter because we are going to this with this person.
Sampunk is the heel that we need to build to
be in the main event, or maybe it's gonna be
miss or whoever it may be, and that's who we're
working on, and we don't care about our truth. We
don't care. You can almost see that. To an extent,
they want to keep del Rio strong because now he's
a focal point with the briefcase, but to an extent
they've backed off of really doing too much with him
story wise. And Ryan's theory is just we've got our
a story and that's all we're going to go within.
We'll deal with our truth and give our truth something
when we need to give our truth something which goes
back to our point way, which is that is the problem,
because then you go in too much. You go, all right,
we're gonna insert our truth into the main event, and
then you build them back up again and you go,
wait a minute. For the last two months, this guy
was forgotten or he's been doing with jobs, or you
made it them an embarrassment, or whatever it is that
they end up doing with these heels. And yet I'm
supposed to want to invest back in our truth as
opposed to keeping a steady flow with these healed and
going all right, this guy's ready to get inserted. Okay,
this guy's ready to get inserted. It's like, no, ignore them.
When we insert them, we'll just it's magic. And now
all of a sudden they don't lose, and now they're
the you know, evil and now all these things, but
they just they just don't stay consistent.
Speaker 3: Yeah, all right, for go down, Dan, Thanks for your call.
Let's move on to our work caller here, Eric God
six o nine, Thanks for all thing so long. So
we think your name and a way your films.
Speaker 6: So guys, it's Jim from New Jersey.
Speaker 3: Hey, Tim, what's going on?
Speaker 7: Just a quick question for both of you guys. Admagine
more for John when someone just as red hot as
young Punk. What does the effect on the rest of
the locker room? And I know, obviously, like everyone is
an individual and they will react their own way. But
if they're like a general feeling in the lack of them,
are people more down, like they can't distinguish themselves in
this sort of environment, or are they more motivated? And
do you have any examples of that?
Speaker 6: Thank you.
Speaker 3: Think, then.
Speaker 6: It's different. I guess in the case of Sempunk, I'm
not there, so I don't know, but I would assume
that that is something that people probably get into because
number one, a lot of people feel the way that
m Punk feels when he catch that promo, and I
think a lot of people want to say those things.
And I even think that some of the guys in
the back were worked by that promo. But get like
a situation like NZ when we gave him money in
the bank and then we were pushing him to set
up to win ww title. That wasn't a very popular
decision with some of the boys, and with some of
them it was. Don't get me wrong, you know, it
depends on whose support too. And I'm not going to
say names, but you know, let's say Miz has a
group of ten guys that are behind him that support him. Yeah,
Miz is great. I know for John Cena. I remember
doing a promo with Miz and I was sitting in Gorilla,
and I mean the promo was coming off great, and
this is kind of like when we were really kind
of getting going with Miz and Sina was in Gorilla
and he walked over I was sitting next to against
me and leaves over to Vis and he goes, I
was wrong about this kid, right, This kid got it?
And I think that you have people like that, and
then you had the people with Miz that go, are
you serious, Like you're going to push this guy, you
might as well push you know. Joe blow off the
Street says, this takes all credibility away from you know,
what Wesselers are supposed to be. And I think those
people rebelled against the push. I know that when we
the day that we were going to put the title
on Swagger and he got it, I know that there
were people that rebelled against that, and there were people
that were going, wow, great all right, because I think
you get the people that look at it and go wow,
Swagger was just in a different position on raw a
few months ago, and look where he is now. That
gives me hope or oh, they're going with younger guys.
Speaker 16: Uh.
Speaker 6: And then you've got some of the other guys that
probably go, I've been here fifteen years busting my ass
and you're putting the title on Liz, you know. So,
I don't know. I had a lot of room Punk,
So I'm sure a lot of them are are are
for what they're doing with him, especially the way Punk
is handling it and the things that Punk is saying.
I think he's speaking for a majority of the people
back there, but it just depends on on the talent
that's getting the push and what people think about him.
Speaker 3: Very good, Let's go to three two three. We want
to get to before. You've been on hold for a
full hour, and we're approaching fifty nine minutes here of waytime,
So let's go to you next. Thanks for calling. Please
state your name and where you're from.
Speaker 10: Hi, guys, it's Kevin from la Hey, John from Orange
County too. I grew up there.
Speaker 9: Hey.
Speaker 6: I got a quick question regarding the network like USA
or Sci Fi their relationship with WWE. I work actually
as an editor in LA and on like table shows
and stuff, and I know, like we have a series
of hoops to go through. We have the story editors,
story producers, then it goes to the producers, the executive
producers EP. Once we get an internal cut, we'll send
it over to network, say, you know Spike or you
know History Channel, and then they'll come back and nine
times out of ten sometimes they just flip this thing
right upside down. No one on our end on internally
agrees with it, but they're just crazy network notes. And
we always think, you know, these are just mindless suits
that really aren't following what we're trying to do. So
I was wondering do you think that does that go
on between WWE and like the network, Like do you guys,
are you guys forced to push certain people? Like I
would assume that's maybe why TNA does that, like because
these mindless suits basically all they know are hul Cogan
and staying, oh, let's put them in the main event.
Like what is it like with the WWE.
Speaker 10: Does Vince have final say or does network come in
and well they just totally throw it upside down on
your heads and thanks to the event.
Speaker 3: Great, good question and You're right. That is something that
TNA has dealt with with Spike, for better or for worse.
And sometimes Spike is you know, chipped in not just ideas,
but money in order to sign certain people because the
people who have influenced Spike TV know who some of
these people are, and they kind of mark out for
the bigger names. And it's been good and bad for TNA,
and I've heard both. It's been a blessing and a
curse for them. But how about you, John, from your experience,
did USA Network or the other networks get involved?
Speaker 6: Yeah, as far as to go to the beginning of
the question, you know, with networks giving notes and making changes,
Kevin Done is pretty much the voice of the network
when it comes to you know, we're gonna.
Speaker 7: Try this, what do you think?
Speaker 6: And Kevin yeah, you know, I don't know. The networks
have been saying that they don't want this, or they
don't want that, or let's do this. So he kind
of represents the networks and production meetings when we're making decisions.
As far as I can give you a larger example
which is probably pretty obvious, but US I remember when
they when they did the draft and and people were
asking me, and I said, there's no way John Cena
gets drafted because USA Network will not allow John Cena
to not be on. That's just the way it is.
He gets drafted. And I just I still was with
telling people he's gonna maybe he'll be gone for a week,
maybe he will be back on the show. And by
the end of the show he was there. And they
did that, you know, just to kind of make the
drafts feel special. But it's situations like that where they go,
all right, John Cena is our guy.
Speaker 8: He needs to be on the show.
Speaker 6: And I remember too, they they were really into Alberto
del Rio when he made his first appearance on Raw
as a member of the SmackDown roster. And that's something
to where they could sit there and they can go out,
Let's get uh, let's get Alberto del Rio over to
Raw whenever we can. Star Power is another thing as
far as like, you know, are we gonna puts in
the main event? Well, I don't know, what is what
does USA Network say?
Speaker 17: Now?
Speaker 6: That's not really that's more of Vince's call. And there's
been times that Vince has rebelled against what someone has
told him he should or shouldn't do. If he wants
to do something, he's doing it. And I think that
if you put the title, let's just say, you gave
the title to Evan Bourne and you're pulling one point
five and you got Evan Bourne in the main event
of every show and he's a focal point and he
kind of put you know, John Cene in the background.
That's where USA Network's going to step in and go,
all right, is Evan Bourne the guy that you really
want to be going with here? Is he the problem?
What's the problem? I mean, I think they trust Vince
more so than and I don't know TNA situation, but
going sting better be in the main event. Vince has
to say of what goes on his show, and the
network trusts Vince to make the right decision, and what
you see on there is what Vince wants. And I
think that he would make the appropriate change if he
felt it being a valid point coming from USA. And
I think that, uh, for example, if he wanted John
Sena on SmackDown. I think that if usay said, you
keep John Cena on on on Raw or we pull
the plug, or we pull support, or we do you know,
whatever it is, that we're going to do, then yes, okay,
we're going to keep John Cena on Raw because I
think it's there comes points where I think that just
out of the principle of making the draft as big
as possible or a storyline as good as it possibly
can be, you know, maybe you have to sacrifice, you know,
firing John Cena and not having them on the show
for two weeks. When the network comes in and goes
get John Cena back on there, then Vince puts John
Cena back on.
Speaker 3: And I do think, you know, just speaking about TNA,
I think there's a comfort zone that of Vince Russo
has if the ratings go down, but he's pushing the
names that Spike TV chipped in for financially or vouched
for and discussions when there was a times either sign
them a renew. If he's pushing those guys in the
ratings stay steady or go down a little, he's safer
than if Sting is on the sidelines or Russo said no,
don't resign.
Speaker 4: Sting.
Speaker 3: He represents something that might turn people away and he
can't really produce in the ring anymore. We're not sure
what to do with his character, Like if he really
took a stand against a sting or anybody Scott Steiner,
Jeff heard, anybody who was on Nitro or run the
early two thousands. He's his neck is more on the line.
And so I think in TNA sometimes people why don't
you push new guys well because Vinteruso wants to build
up a savings account, you know, and it's just Russo.
But everybody involved in TNA, they think we got to
keep Spike happy, even if we think we should be
doing something else in order to invest in the long run.
We just you know, we don't want to upset We
don't want to upset Spike because our nexts are on
the line if we go against what they think is best.
Now that's not to say they disagree with Spike all
that often, but when they do, and of course it's
happened in the last six years or however many years
they've been on Spike, I guess five. Of course it's happened.
And you can't blame them from a pure standpoint of
protecting their own jobs, in their own security.
Speaker 18: Searching for more great pro wrestling talk, then join me.
Jason Powell, host of the free weekly Pro Wrestling Boom Podcast.
Each week, he'll hear the latest news and analysis from
me and my team at pro Wrestling dot Net along
with other pro wrestling media members. Plus, the Pro Wrestling
Boom Podcast features long form interviews with notable names in
the pro wrestling industry. Subscribe and iTunes, Stitcher, Downcast, and
all your favorite secondary apps, or visit us directly at
PW boom dot com. Once again, that's PW boom dot com.
Speaker 3: All right, let's go to Eric code two two. Thanks
the Collins. Please state your name and where you're from.
Speaker 8: Hey, how you doing this? To Anthony for Washington DC?
Speaker 3: Hey Anthony wils anyway, All right now, this is this.
Speaker 8: Question comes off the promo that the Events Day at
Monday talking about there's nobody bigger than the WWE. Now
he's set, but I mean if you look at the
way he designs to show and stuff, he really doesn't
believe that stuff because he's so busy thinking on building
these monsters. You know, your your Chrismaster's sins and stuff.
That's his like boot playing type of guys and stuff.
But I think it needs to go back to like
the old time where you have guys and stuff who
actually let the belt mean something. You know what I'm saying,
because I think it's kind of great what they're doing
with seeing punk and everything like keeping the belt out
of the way and stuff. But I think it was
a mistake to list like put the belt on somebody new,
you know, coming up this, you know, week up now
and stuff. I think they need to build, you know,
from the bottom up and make the you know, the
belts mean more and stuff instead of like, you know,
trying to build these stars. The stars will come if
they see how people see.
Speaker 3: How important the belts are. So what did you think
about that? Okay, go ahead, Uh, just before you answer, John,
I just want to remind people that we're about to
go off of their life. So if you're listening to
us live in about thirty seconds for we will go
off the air. That doesn't mean you can't listen to
what we're saying. Most of the after show we will
make available to everybody at blogtalk Radio. So go ahead,
and if you're listening live, check out the archive we'll
have obviously the full show posted at the PW torch
VP website. I also want to encourage people. I keep
pulling the offer and then and then keeping it up
when people email me and want to take advantage of it.
Pw torch dot com as a special sale right now
on a subscription, So if you are interested, we're going
to keep that up maybe for another twenty four hours here,
because every time I take it down, somebody more than
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Can I please get the offer? So we're offering seventy
percent off your first month of a VIP membership, and
that's instead of ten bucks, it's three bucks and you
got a full month, full benefits, no limitations. There's a
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Check that out at now, we don't do sales very often.
Last time we did one was very early in the year,
So if you're interested in becoming VIP, this is a
good price and you get a lot of bang for
your buck. And we talked about that all week here
on the livecast also, so check that out if you're
interested in going VIP. All right, John Anthony had a
question for us COVID and answered that and the five
we got four people. It looks like, who are still
on hold with questions and we plan to get to
you and give you a chance at least ask your question.
So John, go ahead.
Speaker 6: First through that that pache, I forgot what the question is.
And but let me just make one statement. You can
buy a belt at Walmart. It's a title. It comes
from Vince.
Speaker 9: So I just want to end.
Speaker 6: Vince. He would have had to start over about six
or seven times from the beginning every time that he mentioned.
Speaker 3: Felt so just how funny, Anthony, go ahead and round
your statement into a question for so we can definitely
address your questions. Okay, sorry, John, the title it is?
Why why isn't it like more important than the act? Sure,
like Guys was going for the titles.
Speaker 6: Uh so why isn't the Why is the focus the
guys and not the title?
Speaker 3: Now?
Speaker 8: Why is the focus not the titles? There's more focused
on the guys and creating stars to like sell the
merchandise and everything. But it should be like back to
the titles and stuff they sell it, like, you know,
trying to like create these big monsters in these superheroes
like Guys and stuff, they need to like focus back
on the titles. Because like when I was growing up
and stuff. All you see was guys talking about, well
I'm going to want to come to the company. It's
about you know, well, I'm going to be the next champion. No,
I'm going to be the next chap you know what
I'm saying. And if everybody thinks, well what's up with
this this title? You know what I'm saying, that's when everybody,
you know, Focus got Trace, said well this guy maybe
the next champion of this title.
Speaker 4: You know what I mean.
Speaker 3: Okay, yep, we got you, we got your entity.
Speaker 6: You know.
Speaker 3: I almost disagree with the premise of the question, John,
because I think lately that the stress has been on
Cmpunk taking the title with him money in the bank
both matches. We're all about the winner getting a shot
at the title. I kind of disagree with the premise
of Anthony's question. I mean, not that it's at the
that they struss the title more than ever, but I
think they're doing a decent job of making the title
seem like it's important.
Speaker 4: We have a wait, I think to.
Speaker 6: His point, just to kind of, you know, help at
least establish an answer, YE think that it's you are
right and he's right. I think You're right in the
sense that they're doing a great job at establishing what
this title means, although they're not by having if they
crowd a new champion, and it was done so quick
where it shit, hey, we forget we see him Plunk is,
we're never gonna mention his name. We don't even know
that he holds that title. We're just going to create
a new one. But I think to his point is
that for so long, Bag it wasn't about I want
to wrestle you or fight you for the title. It
was We've got this other thing going on, and then
all of a sudden, you get see him Plunk who
says I'm gonna walk away with the championship. And I
think that Initially when he said that, I thought that
that's not going to translate really with the audience. And
then I liked that when Vince cut a promo and
this was the week after Ciampunk's big shoot promo where
he said, if he takes that title, I mean, it
just takes all credibility away from the WWE and anything
that we do after. And I thought brilliant. He had
to establish that. But the problem is that he had
to establish that he could he knew that the people
didn't see the title or the threat of the title
leaving as that big of a deal because you never
presented the title as the main focus. And I think
a lot of it has to do with what benefits
Vincric mann Moore. The fact that you can have Miz
go out there and say I'm the mis and I'm
awesome and that'll sell T shirts for him, or the
fact that Miz goes out there and says, hey, I
want that title. Eh, you know it's it's when money
comes into play, things change. And I just think that
life isn't as great as it once was at WWE,
and I think that they one of their I remember
when John Cena joined Nexus, it was no he is
not walking out with a Nexus shirt on. He is
wearing his John Cena T shirt. Why because you're gonna
stop selling John Cena T shirts And and this whole
story was based around the fact that we can't stop
selling John Cena T shirt. And I just think that
that's that's that's where the focus is. And it build
these big stars. If you build Sinkara, oh my gosh,
we could sell all these masks. It's not man, if
we have Cincara come in and say, you know, I'm
the better wrestler than Raymastereo and I'm gonna win that title,
and all right, well, you know, and I think that
that title also represents wrestling, and I think people wrestle
for that title, and I don't think that that's offence.
His main focus is I don't want to present this
as wrestling. I want this to be entertainment, and that
title is second in terms of what is entertaining to people.
Speaker 3: Let's I just want to shore five seven oh nine,
seven three and seven one four. We have you in mind,
and that's the order will be taken the calls and
we'll go to Eric go five to seven oh next.
Thanks for open. Please think your name and where you're from.
Speaker 15: Hi.
Speaker 3: This is AJ from AJ Go ahead with your question
for coming.
Speaker 17: I just wanted to say I've been listening to you
guys since, uh since WrestleMania.
Speaker 3: I actually got an iPhone and got into the podcast.
Speaker 17: I really enjoyed the show. I listen to you guys
every single day except for the weekends, of course, and
I hope to be listening for a long time. I'm
definitely gonna be taking advantage of that PW Torch offer
two for three dollars. That's an awesome deal. I'll start
off with a question real quick. The title belts.
Speaker 3: I've always felt that they've had like a big importance
to WWE.
Speaker 17: And here's Ceem Punk showing up here with the title
belt and the refrigerator and then showing up a comic
com with the belt around his waist.
Speaker 3: I always thought that.
Speaker 17: Like after the show, like you know, the belts went
back with Vince, What what actually happens with that? Like,
if you win the belt, do you get to hang
on to it, take it from show to show, or
do they like stay in a certain spot? That good question, John,
What happens with the tuddle belt when a sample.
Speaker 7: Number one?
Speaker 6: You can call it a title belt, just don't call
it a belt, right, just I'm trying to help you
guys learn here. No, there's two titles. There's the what's
called the HD title, which is the title that you
that travels with props, which goes to TV. And so
when the truck goes back to Stanford, then it goes
to the next the next city, and all the belts
are in this in this case and death, the title
is strictly used for Monday Night Rock Macdown, whatever show
that they have the title for. Then you have the
house show title, which would be what if Sam Punk
was doing house shows, he would carry the house show title,
which is a little bit more dinged up because it's
not taking care of as much and it travels in
in whoever's luggage. And uh, I mean I remember when
MS was US champ and money in the bank, he
carried that briefcase to the airport. He had the US
title in his bag. He has to take it out,
he has to run through security with it. But I'm
going to assume, based on the fact that they're having
Punks sort of virally promote the WWE title, that that's
they probably just got another HD title or they gave
him the HD title and then they got another one,
so that whatever they're going to use going forward until
Punk comes back, because the house show titles are are
literally pretty dinged up and in pretty bad shape. But yeah,
the I don't know which one Punk has. But for example,
if you saw miss when he was champion, that he
was out and about and he was told him the
title of it'd be his his house show title.
Speaker 3: What would mis take the house show title to TV
with him just because it's part had he worked house
shows the night before.
Speaker 6: Yeah, he has it with them at all times.
Speaker 3: You just keep it in your luggage and and and
at the risk of stating the obvious, and you can
correct me if I'm assuming wrong. HD title means it
has to look good in HDP high definition television. So
that's why they keep the proscede. Yes, Okay, yeah, I
didn't want to be captain obvious there. But what if
there was some other reason and I just disn't wrong
for and I could be wrong for ten years before
someone corrected me that any anything else on that huff.
Speaker 17: No, I just want to say, keep up with good work,
take care, spike your head.
Speaker 4: Woo woo woo.
Speaker 7: You guys know it.
Speaker 3: Enjoy a good show. Thanks he Jay, look forward to
you subscribing to the IP. Please let me know what
you're thinking. By the way, that goes to everybody, everybody
who's listened to the show and it's signed up for
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making the product better or you know, improving the product
for those who are still members. All right, with that said,
let's go to by the way, great Insight, John. I
knew there were multiple helps. I did not know about
the HG titles, so that that was really cool to
learn about that.
Speaker 1: You know, that last thing that you're just listening to
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Speaker 3: All right, let's go to Ericode nine seven three. You're
up next. Please stay to name and where you're from.
Speaker 16: Hey Way, this is down from New York.
Speaker 3: Hey Don, thanks for calling.
Speaker 8: What's up?
Speaker 3: Not much?
Speaker 16: John, You're on fire today. Great job. Enjoy your creative
call blog as well. Comment in a question. I agree
with your assessment of Daniel Bryant, and I had brought
this up earlier in the person. I think it's a
knee jerk reaction to what TNA is doing with the
X Division sort of ww's way is saying, well, we've
got an X Division wrestler right here, let's promote them.
But I agree it was kind of out of the
blue with no momentum. But my question to you, John,
is what in the world is going on with the
women's division Because I've watched it was in the last month.
I've watched two smackdowns that they didn't feature one women's match,
and on Raw we get a eighty five second match.
Can you tell me what the focus is? Is this
tied into Linda McMahon's is tied into Stephanie and Hunter's
focus that women should be involved in wrestling. What is
going on with the women's division?
Speaker 6: What's the what's the thing with Stephanie and Linda saying
about women dressers?
Speaker 16: Well, Linda McMahon tied into her political campaign. Perhaps it's
not politically correct to see women bashing each other and uh,
possibly you know, promote sexism and violence. Possibly some you know.
And then with Stephanie Hunter, I think they talk a
lot about creating a better world. So perhaps in their
vision of a better world, uh, women don't wrestle. But
I just don't see the folks anymore. What what's your opinion?
Speaker 6: I know Stephanie is big on on the women's division,
Diva's division and and wanting them to have some focus.
I remember at one point, uh, for SmackDown, especially every
week when Stephanie would get the script, she'd say, Okay,
what are you doing with the divas? I guess they're
just such an afterthought. I mean I know that, uh,
they are a part of the product, and I know
that they want to get them on TV, but it's
just sort of, you know, we'll give them their segment.
It'll be the quickest segment on.
Speaker 9: The show and we'll move on because.
Speaker 6: I think to w W E, it's more about the
entrances and seeing these worlds more so than seeing them
in a match, because I remember at one point too,
they had to change the whole style of their matches
where you know, you can't really hit somebody. You know,
if you want to throw an elbow, that's fine, But
if they didn't want these guys to wrestle, I'm sorry
they didn't want the divas.
Speaker 9: To wrestle like guys.
Speaker 6: So you know, I don't think that there's an answer
to why the diva's division is what it is, because
for the most part, is just in that way for
a while. And I think the last time you actually
saw a story was was like cool. But that was
because Michelle and Layla were so intent on making things
happen for themselves. So we would to the story, we
would pitch it, and if they would ignore it, then
the next week we would pitch something again, to the
point where if they weren't getting used, Michelle would walk
right up to again and say I want to be used.
And he was a great story. We feel like we're
being ignored and Vince would agree that, yes, that sounds
like a good story.
Speaker 9: Okay, we'll go with it.
Speaker 6: And I think that the girls not taking anything away
from them. But I think if the girls are a
little too intimated to do anything, Sure, they're eager. When
I was there, I'd be walking, you know, indicatoring, and
he would say, hey, can I talk to you? I
want to pitch you an idea. They all have ideas.
The problem is is that I'm gonna pitch an idea
and if it doesn't happen, then all right, well I'll
pitch an idea where you have to be even the
guys you if you're not John Cena, if you're not
stampunk right now, if you're not Randy Orton, if you're
not the top story, then nine times out of ten
you're not being thought of at all. So you may
take up. And if you keep knocking on Vince's door,
eventually he's gonna go if you believe in this enough.
And I don't know if it's because he wants you
to stop knocking on his door or if he just goes,
you know what, Fine, you want to do it, let's
try it. Then that's what's gonna happen. You're just gonna
be forgotten.
Speaker 9: And I think that.
Speaker 6: To the original point, the girls are just eye candy
and let's get them on for a few minutes. You know, Okay, great,
they caught everyone's eye, they got out there, moving on.
I also don't think that they feel like they can
handle a story. You know, there's been times that they've
we've done free tapes with worlds and it's just like well,
And I think that that's what helped lay cool was
that they just were head and shoulders some will disagree,
above the rest of the girl's roster and being able
to cut a chromo or do a fruitcake. Annoying or not,
that's what their character was. I know a lot of
people used to tell me when talking about working with
lay Cool that it was like, oh, they were just annoying.
They weren't good, they were annoying. Well that was what
they were supposed to be. So yeah, I mean, I
hope that answers your question, because the answer is there
is no answer to it, but hopefully that.
Speaker 3: Cuts out something.
Speaker 16: It sounds like again, bottom line is merch sales again.
And you talked about the priority and you've got so much,
You've got a two hour spot to fill, and you've
got to promote your top selling items or stars. And
I guess again it comes down to your top tier
stars and then Tier B is your other everything else.
I guess that's what it comes down to.
Speaker 6: Yeah, to add to it, and this is kind of
can add to a similar question from before. But when
it comes to you know, I don't want to say
everything comes down to merchandise, but I'll say what is
going to draw the most money. And I remember at
one point we were in a funk creative wise as
far as what was going on TV, and we had
an emergency meeting with Vince and everybody on Creative.
Speaker 9: And it was what is going on?
Speaker 6: And Vince gave us a pep talk and talked about
what he wanted, what he didn't want. And I remember
sitting there and you know, as much as I could
sit here and fitch to Brian and it at me
what he wants, and you know, those are the times
when you get a chance to stay them. I remember
I said number one, we have guys, even Fatista, wrestling
four months in a row with no stories. It's just, hey,
you beat me last time. I want to try again.
And we do it for four months, and the audience
starts to believe I don't have a hurgency to see
this match because I must se it three more times
and then you give it to him two more times.
And I said, on top of that, you know that
someone's not going to win the title the first time out,
because we've got to go three months with this, And
I said, why not try to fill trade some of
this younger talent in there? You know, you get this
is before we get anything with the mid You get
missed in there, he's got a title shot. At one point,
you get Tody Roads in there and he's got a
title shot. Sure, the guys aren't going to win, and
you're gonna Also, I think one of the things that
Brian chimed in was that are people going to believe
that these guys will win the title because you're acting
them to pay for it? And I said, you're right
right now, they won't.
Speaker 3: But if you have, say.
Speaker 6: Tody Roads go for a title shot, any losers, Oh yeah,
I figured that was going to happen, you know, and
then three months down the line, you get missed title shot.
Let's say Miz goes over. Why all of a sudden
you got people going, wow, I wasn't expecting that anybody
could win at any given time. And that's the kind
of forumner that you kind of go with here without
devaluing the title. You still go with the guy that
you think is ready to have it, but you kind
of give him that that rotating spot, but make people
believe that it doesn't matter who's in that spot. Somebody
could win it. But it came down to I remember
being taught to after that by uh. I can't remember
if it was Michael or someone else that especially said, look,
here's the deal. If you do Tina versus Patista, and
you know that that's going to get you two hundred
and seventy five thousand buys?
Speaker 3: Is that low?
Speaker 9: Sure?
Speaker 6: But you know for a fact they're getting two hundred
and seventy five thousand buys. If you put mis in there,
can you maybe get five hundreds maybe? But can you
also get.
Speaker 9: One twenty five maybe?
Speaker 6: And they don't want to take that chance of getting
the one twenty five. Look, we know going to get
to seventy five. Yeah, it all comes down to what's
coming back into their pocket, and that's just what you're
going to have to deal with in this era of wrestling,
where I think that weight would probably be able to
tell me if I'm wrong on this. But during the
during the the money and I wore it wasn't about
anything more than saying, what's going to get us a
higher rating this week, and that's just what you're at
the mercy of having to the book or write for.
And I think right now you're at the mercy of
what's going to make us the most money. I remember
this storyline. Decisions would be made based on the fact
that there was a potential potential company that might want
a sponsor, and if we did this with this person,
they may not want to do it.
Speaker 10: Yeah, so you know it's a shame, but it is.
Speaker 8: What it is.
Speaker 3: Well, and even going back to the women specifically, I
think this man also thinks we've got limited TV time,
and I think he thinks he's that there are people
who tune in to see the women and as soon
as they see them, they've seen them, and so as
long as they're on the show, get you get the
people tuning into the show because they need their glimpse
at the divas. But if you give them a lot
of TV time, I think he thinks maybe that TV
time would be better spent on somebody who is a
current or future or potential future pay per view main
eventor And the women aren't going to main event pay
per views. That's not how they're view that's not how
they're promoted. So one of the reasons that they don't
put a lot of energy and time into it and
why the matches are so short, and I disagree with it,
but is well, people who tune in for this diva
or that diva, we give them there two minutes, three
minutes with them on TV. That's it. Now we got
to get back to the money, the wrestlers who will
draw money for us, who can potentially headline manius right right, yeah,
all right, good stuff. Let's go to our final caller
of the day on hold for about a half hour,
Eric Code seven one four, Thanks so much for holding.
Please state your name and where you're from.
Speaker 4: Hey wait, it's Ron from marsh Downy.
Speaker 8: Hey John.
Speaker 4: Also, even though I was a critical earlier week, I
got to say the Torch newsletter is is awesome. I'd
vote it up on my iPad. It it's absolutely beautiful.
It's like one of the only things I ever read,
I'll read like Boos or other magazine. There's a lot
of great content there, and the newsletter alone, not even
counting the audio, is definitely worth, not even just the
three dollars, but whatever the normal subscription crisis. So if
anybody out there has an iPad, definitely check it out.
But my question goes more to the is the backstage
guys aware of like shoot interviews. I'd bring this up
because I recently saw Ken Kennedy shoot interview and he
said that Stone Cold Steve Austin would give him feedback.
And he said there are people within the companies that
do not like Stone Cold Steve Austin and and try
and and he believed he was helped back because he
listened to Stone Cold. I realized these are workers giving
me shoot interviews. But that being that being said, is
there any truths to that? And people pay attention to
shoot interviews like the dint snow about him or somebody else.
And not to add another question, but I guess I
am when w c W, I'll folded, why was John
Lauren and I just give him such a high position
in w W considering w c W sucks.
Speaker 3: How you figured that the people that ran that company
wouldn't be running WWE.
Speaker 4: But it's kind of They brought a lot of people
over and I'm just curious that's why they chased out
guys like the Hebner's Stave Hebner. I guess be more
more along the line. So sorry for the long Winches question, guys,
but this has been a great show. I've enjoyed listening
to the whole thing.
Speaker 3: Taking these guys, I think, are you so they're run?
Speaker 8: Yeah?
Speaker 3: Absolutely, to Hey, I just want a clarification, mister Ken Anderson.
Ken Kennedy said that he was listening behind the scenes
to advice Steve Austin was giving him, and that some
people looked at that as a negative that Steve Austin
was helping him. They didn't like what arsenal thing. Did
I hear you right? Yes? Christ Okay, okay, So John,
go ahead and take those questions Anderson and also Laura
Nidas see okay.
Speaker 6: So the thing was, I wasn't there for, you know,
any sort of conversation on if someone didn't like Stone
Cold and Ken Anders or Ken Kennedy or whatever was
taking advice and that was looked down on. But I
can tell you what I think that translate says, and
I'm pretty confident in this being what it was is
that it wasn't so much that Stonecold Steve Austin gives
you advice and you take it, because that would not
be looked down on. That is someone that Vince thoroughly respects.
And and if if Stone Coold went to Vince and said,
I really like this Kennedy guy, that's something that Vince
really takes into consideration and he respects Stone Cold enough
to go, all right, maybe we got some with this guy.
Sam could be said for for Taker Sena, Rock, Triple H,
Shawn Michaels. You know, these people can walk in and say,
I really want to mentor this guy, and it's not
going to be looked down on. What I think happened
was that Vince is very particular on what he wants
some a character to be if he is planning on
taking you to the next level. For example, you could
take a Jack Swagger, who at the time was borderline
comedy act. I say borderline because sure we had him
say funny things, but he wasn't Santino Morella. He held
his own in a match. He was still a badass,
but the second that he won the title, it was
all right, here's what you're gonna be. Now you got
stone Cold, who I think probably was I think it
was misinterpreted to Kennedy, but I think that maybe if
it was all right, look, spit the gum out, don't
be so sort of of haha, Kennedy, be more serious.
Kennedy like, again, I'll compare it to Swagger because that
was such like a drastic change. And I think that
Stone Cold probably gave his advice, and I think Kennedy said,
I'm going with stone cold advice over vincerick Mann's advice.
Speaker 3: And you don't do that.
Speaker 6: If Vince tells you to.
Speaker 9: Do something, you do it.
Speaker 6: And sure you can go to him and you can say, hey, listen,
I talked to Steve and I was thinking, I know
I could do this, I know you want me to
do this. Can I also do this, because that's what
I did with Swaggers. I said, look, you've got Jack
Swagger before you cashed him money in the bank, and
you've got world champion Jack Swagger before you cashed in
money in the bank. We had you doing one thing.
Vinceric Man, has you doing one thing now is champion.
I said, there's a line that is right in between
both of those characters. I said, walk that line. Be
what Vince wants you to be, but be Jack Swagger,
because that's kind of what got you to this point.
And I think that Kennedy took it as stone cold
wants me to be Kennedy and he thinks I should
be Kennedy.
Speaker 9: So hey, Vince, screw you.
Speaker 6: I'm gonna be this guy and you can't do that
to this And I think that's where the problem was.
As far as John Laronidas, I don't know, because I
wasn't in the company when that happened. I could assume that,
you know, maybe they just wanted Jim Ross out. I
don't know, Wade, maybe you know that story, and I
think that again, I don't know if laroniis held that
position in WCW. But you know, just because you work
for a company that goes out of business doesn't necessarily
mean that you're the problem. And not saying that John
Larnias is the best person for that job, and I'm
not saying he's the worst person for the job, but
when you come into the company and it's you're absorbing
employees or assets, and you sit down with Lara Nitis
and you know what did you do over there? Okay,
I was the head of talent relations. Okay, well tell
me little bit. You know what you can bring to
the table here. Blah blah blah blah blah. We like
this guy, so he's getting the job. I mean, I
don't think that anything looked at and said, hey, you
know what, you WCW went out of business. You're part
of the problem. You're out, So you know who knows.
Speaker 19: Longing for some nostalgia or maybe you want to learn
some wrestling history, don't miss the Nineties Past cast every
Friday on the PW Torch Daily Cast Feed. Alex and
Patrick will transport you thirty years into the past by
taking you through the Torch issue from that very week.
Follow news from the WWF and WCW, and all the
happenings from across the wrestling industry in real time as
The Torch reported it thirty years ago. That's the nineties
Pass cast every Friday on the PW Torch Daily Cast Feed.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I'll add to that, I mean, Jim Ross
was overworked during the Attitude era, an announcer, he was
booking house show matches. He was in charge of talent relations,
and as a job that has you know, like a
lot of jobs, a certain lifespan on it, and Ross
was really you know, hours wise, it just wasn't something
he could keep up. And John Laurniis was along for
a while kind of shadowing Jr. And learning the job,
and Ross was teaching him how to do it. I
think the feeling was because Lauren Iitis had experience not
only in WCW in a similar role, but also had
worked in Japan as a wrestler and as an intermediary
with talent. He was the person with all Japan who
worked with American wrestlers and in the Japan office at
coordinating tours and pay and schedule. So Lauren IIIs had
experience not just in ww but also in Japan. And
he presented himself well, he comes from a wrestling family,
the brother of Road Roar Animal, and he presented himself well.
He was with Stephanie McMahon and Vince mc mahn at
that point in particul Killer, We're looking for somebody who
seemed very much a company man, somebody who they could
trust somebody who didn't have a bunch of his own
ideas and would go into business for himself, but would say,
you want me to jump how high? Yes, sir, thank you,
And he played the game. And there comes a point
and I know some people aren't fit for aren't made
for this, but there's a time when when you're getting
paid by somebody and they have their choice of everybody
in the world who will work for them. They want
somebody who's not going to be a headache. They want
somebody who is just going to be their robot and
serve their purpose and bring a skill set but not
challenge them. Lourniitis was that guy, and he was willing
to be the bad cop, and the job of talent
relations as a not a thankless job. And mc matt
will thank you, but you're the guy who delivers a
bad news. You're the you know, you're the one who
says you're fired. We've got nothing for you. And you
almost have to be a little cold and heartless, or
at least willing to separate that the human side of
you to go do that in order to be good
at that job. And m the McMahon's beside Lornitis was that,
and I mean he's not a popular guy, but he's
not meant to be. You know, Jim Ross tried to
be and that was a real challenge to be both
popular and the guy who's in charge of delivering the
bad news and being the bad cop. And so Laura
and II's just personality wise, is a good was effective
at being a good cop. But I mean, if you
read the progressing torture newsletters back then when he first
took over, I mean, WWE wrestlers are coming out of
the woodwork to tell me what he was doing that
was upsetting the locker room and upsetting morale. The dress
code was a big thing. I mean, it just people
didn't like dealing with him because they felt with Jim
Ross they had a coach that cared about them, and
with Laura and iis, they felt they had a corporate
suit who was a bad cop just delivering bad news
to them. And to this day, I mean seen as
a hero for Potato wing Laurynidis on Sunday, you know,
I mean that that was a receipt for what a
lot of people in that locker feel about Laurniitis and
so but you know, John knows the game and uh,
and I think he's compensated well for him. So that
would be my take on that. Did we cover did
we cover questions and try it? Yeah? We did, So
we're going on that. John, If you have just a
couple more minutes, I want to do a VPP after
show and just ask a couple questions about my experience
on Tuesday night after the SmackDown pay things and get
your insight into after hours life for wrestlers based on
what I saw on and how that compares to what's typical.
So live cast listeners on Blogtalk Radio on iTunes. We
are signing off and VIP members stay tuned because we're
gonna give you some cool behind the scenes discussion on
after hours life as as a wrestler and a writer
and an agent of the staffer based on my experience
on Tuesday. Thanks everybody for listening. We're here five days
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Now is the time to act. All right, Let's sign
off and I'll move into the VIP after show, all right, John.
One thing that I've picked up on over the years
in various ways is there is a bit of a
separation between the there's it's kind of clickish and understandably
so the writers kind of hang out together, wrestlers kind
of hang out together after matches. I've gotten the sense
from listening to Dave Logana's I Want Wrestling podcasts that
and from talking to you especially that you know, there's
a lot of writers who've been around a while who
haven't even had a full fledged conversation with some of
the wrestlers that they traveled up. You know, they see
ATTV a lot, but it just they don't get to
know them because there is that line drawn. And on
Tuesday night I noticed, I mean, the writers are all
sitting in a corner of the bar, and then the
wrestlers are kind of doing you know, the wrestlers are
doing their thing. But as the night wore on, the
party spilled from the hotel bar to an Irish bar
down the street, and then everybody was intermingling. You know,
the writers were intermingling with the wrestlers, and it looked
like there wasn't no rules are being broken or anything,
you know, no protocol was being broken. Everyone was just
kind of equal and hanging out and having a good time.
And I wonder, first of all, is that kind of typical?
And second of all, was there more of a celebration
mode at the end of SmackDown on a pay per
view week then typical because it's sort of like a
big exhale, Wow, we got through it. And then the
third part to this, and I'll remind you of my
three part question here if you need me too. Did
people tend to have more fun after they felt they
had good shows versus if they felt a pay per
view didn't go well or Iron didn't go well? Did
that actually change the mood among the wrestlers and the
writers afterwards? And do people kind of retreat to their
rooms or have a different different mode to them. So
those are my three questions for you.
Speaker 6: Let's work backwards, because I might forget the Let's start
with the mood after a show, whether it's good, bad, success, unsuccessful.
That doesn't necessarily really translate too much with the writers
because to the writers it's the show's over. I know
I'm going to be back at this in twenty four hours.
I need a break. Whether it sucked, whether it didn't suck, whatever.
And a lot of it also has to do with
you know what if if I was there, say, for example,
and I have a promo and Vince just tears me
a new one, Yeah, I might be in a crappy
mood that that night, because you know, it's just there's
a lot of things that can be said to you
that you can't really respond to, and you just got
to take it. And as a as a man, you
you don't necessarily want to ignore it, but you know
that you have to. So you know, that's that kind
of stuff could eat at you and so you have
a bad night. But you know, if the show sucked,
we don't care. I mean, come on, you know what
I mean, like we we do what we can do.
And yeah, maybe at this point now Ed Cosky has
a been bad night because SmackDown sucked because he's got
a little bit more on the line. Or Brian because
ratings came in for Raw and they're low and he
knows he's going to be getting phone calls at midnight
or or at six am on Wednesday morning asking what
are we going to do for Raw to make sure
that rating goes up? But you know, and and the
wrestlers too, it's more so you know, if they're if
if I'm speaking for them, and I can't, but I
can just kind of give you My experience is that,
you know, if someone had a bad night, typically they're
probably not out at the bar. They're probably up, you know,
doing whatever they want to do on.
Speaker 16: Their own time.
Speaker 6: But uh, for the most part, Tuesday is sort of
and even Monday because the Raw superstars travel home the
next morning, but the night after a TV it's pretty loose.
It's kind of like, you know, this is the one
time out of the week that I can kind of
just forget about things and kind of let loose and
enjoy people's company. And and that's kind of the atmosphere
that you have. But as far as like the writers
and the wrestlers and the producers and all that stuff
hanging out, you're right, it is very cliquish. And I
think that a lot of it has to do with
I don't really think there's much of a dynamic between
the writers and the talent. I don't think that the
writers are all that respected by the talent, and I
think that, you know, I always put myself in a
good light, and I this is It's something that I
when I went there, I heard from the moment I
got there, don't trust any of the talent. They're all
going to use you because they want, you know, to
get you to write something for them, or all the
divas will flirt with you because they want you to
write something for them. And it's like, okay, So you
go in there with that mindset and then you go
but once they find out that you're not going to
do it or it doesn't work, or whatever the case
may be, they're all going to be sorry my language, assholes.
So I went in with the mindset of going, A,
I'm not gonna let that happen to me, but B
I don't want them to be an asshole to me.
I want to cross that gap. And you start to
find out that a lot of it is, Hey, these
guys ignore me. They they don't give me the time
or day. They act like they're too good to talk
to me. So screw those, screw the writers and I.
And that's kind of the mentality that these guys have.
And when I figured that out, that's when I started going,
you know what, Zach Ryder or someone would walk into
the writer's room, Hey, guys, can I it's something to you?
You know, I'm Brian is the and looks away, or
you know, everyone kind of gets up and oh I
got this, Oh yeah, you know whatever, I don't know,
or hey, just email me, and I would be the
guy that would get up and if I had time
be like, yeah, let's go, I got five minutes to talk,
or hey, come back in two hours and and I'll
do it, and and and people would then talent would
then start coming into the writer's room and being like
hey John, because they knew I'd be the only one
that would talk to them. So I kind of tried
to bridge that gap with Creative and the talent. And
I just think, honestly way that if if, if, there
is I don't want to name names, but there are
certain people on Creative that if they were not on
Creative and they ran into certain talent at a bar,
that they would not walk out of there without getting
their ass kicked.
Speaker 3: Wow.
Speaker 6: And that's just the way that some of them look
at it. So you walk in there and it's like,
you know, the the middle school prom wrestlers on one side,
everybody else on the other side. But you can have
that one person that, like, you know, I could walk
over and go, hey, what's up? And I'm perceived like
not better than those guys. But you know what, John's
not a dick to us, so we're cool with John.
And I'm not saying I was the only one that
was like that, because there were other guys like that too,
But you know, I think once you get alcohol involved,
and I think also too, once you get agendas, these
guys are smart. The rest I'm not gonna say all
of them, but majority of the wrestlers are smart. They
know that they got to be cool with talent or
with the creative to give ahead, so you know, let
the drudis flow, and then it's like, oh, you know, John,
come here, you know, and they act like your buddy,
and it's like, oh, so, anyways, what do you got
going on? But you can always tell what the agenda
is because it always comes back to you know. But
then there's the guys that are genuinely your friend. And
I feel like I had a handful of those.
Speaker 8: Guys and guys I still.
Speaker 6: Talk to now that we don't even have to talk
of wrestling, or sometimes they do want to talk about it.
You know, listen, what it's this way. Wait, there's guys
that get paid to come up with creative for the
talent that they're on the roster. And I could tell
you I probably have a dozen guys on that roster
still call me and ask me to help them come
up with stories because they can't get anybody there to
do anything. Or I hear I respect what you would
pitch better than what they have. So that's just there's
just you know, it's two groups of people who don't
care for one another, and that when they hang out,
they separate, and when the drinks are flowing and people
are having a good time, then they kind of terraingle.
Speaker 8: A little bit.
Speaker 1: iPhone users, if you're listening to us on the Native
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Speaker 3: Pat Patterson was there on Tuesday. I know he doesn't
go to all the events. He goes to some of
the pay per views, especially he used to write the
shows with Vince. It used to be those two only
pretty much. You know, Bruce Ritchard would help format TV
or Jerry Briscoe would be around for the meetings around
the dining room table back in the day, Jerry Jarret
would help out, but Pat and Vince were like the
two people at one point in the eighties and nineties
who wrote those shows when he's around, given his experience,
did did you or did you notice other creative team
members have developed a relationship with him? Did you feel
comfortable asking him advice or questions? Did he come to
you guys with evaluations? What was the dynamic like and
the respect level or a wall perhaps that was built
between those two sides Patterson and the team.
Speaker 6: Yeah, Patterson, I talked to you about this in the
Torch Talk. I mean, I honestly feel like Patterson, with
my experience with him and his input at meetings, that
this is probably the guy that is most responsible for
the success of WWE. And I think Vince the way
that Vince treats him leads me to believe that even
more because if Pat Patterson says something done, you want
to do that Pat done. And I think that he
built that that that credibility and that respect from Vince
to be able to say. I remember, just just for one,
everyone was so against this when we were doing NXT
season one, and I think at one point, you know,
it started off great and then it was just kind
of like eh, and we were in the meeting and
it was they set up peace Slater versus Chris Jericho,
and Jericho is going to go over, and Pat Patterson
speaks up and he goes, you guys want you know,
people to talk about this or tune in. Just have
he Slater go over. And I remember people producers and
and and even I think Costy or whoever was had
to be Costy because he was right in the show,
you know, well, why would we do that? Well why
not do it? And it was it not to say
that this was this great plan, but just to go
to show you and Vince said he's Slater over. There
was no argument. Everyone was against. Pat pat says it,
We're doing it. And it's unfortunate that he's not so
involved now because I remember I would have conversations with
Pat and sit down with them in hotel lobbies and
just I'd pitch him. I mean the stuff that I
that that I vent to you on your show or
on my Twitter or on my website, I would vent
to that and we'd sit there and talk for hours
and just and he'd sit there and go, yeah, I
agree with you. I agree with everything you're saying. I remember,
I can't remember the scenario, but he was so big
on when Seamus won the world title, we were getting
ready to just immediately put it right back on Sena,
and he's you sit here, Vince, and you want to
build new stars, You got one. Keep the title on
them to Mania, have them go to Mania, have them
win at Mania and walk out as champion. You know
why are we putting the title right back on Sena?
And uh, obviously that didn't happen. But I mean Pat
is If Pat had more power, not not so much power,
but if his voice was listened to, the product would
be in a better situation. I mean, he's the guy
behind Royal Rumble. He's the guy behind the not saying
that this was amazing, but the scramble. I mean you
at least he's he's innovative still and and he tries
to do things different, and I remember he would We
would have things where it'd be like, wow, how could
we establish a new number one contender? We got a
three hour show? What could we do? I mean, Pat,
not even knowing any of this stuff ahead of time,
would just rattle off ideas, why not do this, why
not do this?
Speaker 3: Why not do it?
Speaker 6: And it was like wow, like yes, go with that one.
But you have people who don't want to hear his opinion,
like Brian Gowertz, and unfortunately, you know, Pat can. I
think Vince also has to let everyone know Pat doesn't
run the show. I do, so everything that he says
is not necessarily going to happen. But there is a
lot of times that Vince would would say, you know,
the production meeting would be over and he'd say, hey, Pat,
stick around, just you know, and everyone else would leave
it and be him and Pat talking. And I think
that just is him going back to going feeling comfortable
and feeling like he has the person there with the
right answer.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that was my next question I was gonna ask,
is is Pat Patterson's relationship with Brian Gowertz, because you know,
Brian is the new guy, and I would think there
would be if they didn't have a father son type relationship,
a mentor protege, then it would be the opposite. Then
it would be a sense of being threatened that that
the Wortz would feel threatened. Because Paterson is regarded as
one of the all time great workers, one of the
all time great bookers, one of the all time great
wrestling minds, and had a great relationship during a boom
period or you know, an expansion period we'll call it
for WWF. And then Brian Gowertz is what what about
Brian Gowertz Is pat Patterson going to respect when it
comes to his experience? And I know Patterson respects people
who drew who were on top, who had that experience
or who have really bring something else to the table.
So that was kind of interesting, is if the WORDZ
felt a little threatened or just not welcome by Patterson,
as you know, like pat looking at him like you're
the guy who's now in my chair.
Speaker 6: Yeah, And I think that it's easy maybe for Brian
to go that route and go he doesn't respect me
because I didn't go through the same trials and tribulations
that he did, or I didn't break my neck to
be able to have the power that I have. And
I think that's the easy way out. But Brian rubs
people the wrong way. And what you don't understand. I
don't want to say this to you, but I'm just
saying I guess Ryan doesn't understand is that when you
make people not like you for who you are, then
they're not going to support you. And it has nothing
to do with how you got your position because and
I draw things to me a lot because I don't
like to speak for other people, and I know I
do on occasion, but you know, Pat had good relationship
with guys on Creative and me being one of them,
where he would tell me, man, I like this, Yes
we should go with this, Yes you should pitch this,
or yes I'll mention this for you. But he I
don't think he was a big fan of Brian because
Brian treats people like there below him and I just
don't get why. And I think it's a complex of
being this kid who probably had no friends in school,
getting picked on, who's probably never slept with anybody, and going,
oh my gosh, So the first time in my life,
I'm in a position of power, and I'm going to
make every single person pay for that. And you know what,
if you're a diva and you're hot, you're paying for
every girl in the past that turned me down. If
you're you know, the cool guy and your the talent,
you're gonna pay for being that guy that stuffed me
in a locker, and anyone who even fought me, who
butted heads with him all the time. I mean, I
would be the only one would say here and go, well,
it wasn't every week because sometimes I'd keep my mouth
shut because I'm not going to stand up to the
guy every single week over an idea. But it'd be like, hey, guys,
what do you think of my idea? And he gives
you this look like how dare you not go along
with what I want to do?
Speaker 7: And I think.
Speaker 6: Pat will say what he wants to say. If he
disagrees with Brian, he'll say, not in these words, that
idea is stupid. You need to try this, And that
is the last thing that Brian wants to hear. When
he's sitting up at the front of the room reading
a show for someone to attack his work, and he
comes right back at you too. He'll say something right
back at Pats And sometimes even after the show's over,
he'll he'll address Pat and say something condescending to him
before Pat's even said anything.
Speaker 3: Wow.
Speaker 8: Wow.
Speaker 3: So Pat would recognize Brian, knows his name, but has
budtet heads with him and doesn't doesn't respect him. And
when Pat shows up, it probably means Brian's not having
as good a day as yet hope opinion.
Speaker 6: By the way, that's my opinion, yes.
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, yes in your opinion Brian from from what
you have observed, Brian not excited on the inside when
he sees that Pat has chosen this as a weekend
that he's going to be around.
Speaker 4: Not at all.
Speaker 3: Yeah, interesting cool stuff. Well, uh, thanks so much, John,
great insight and uh, you know, we think we've tapped
you for you know, all the great stories and then
the callers come up with great questions and uh I
get to you know, I go to SmackDown and go, hey,
wonder about John would add to this? So I think
a good show and good contributions, and appreciate your insight
as always, and I know the reader that the listeners
do too.
Speaker 12: Give it.
Speaker 3: Give a plug to your to your Twitter account and
also your blog again please.
Speaker 6: At John as himself follow me on Twitter. And the
blog is wrestling recall dot com or it's a creative
recall dot WordPress dot com. I got to get that
creative recall dot com y, I guess.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, and and what is why John as himself?
Speaker 6: You know, honestly, it's just everyone has a gimmick on there. Yeah,
it's the real or someone comes up with a nickname.
It's just me as men.
Speaker 3: Yeah, No, that's kind of what I figured, but I
didn't know if there was I didn't know if it
was inspired by somebody else or or just kind of
what it appeared. You just kind of take it off
in general on that cool. Well now I can now
I can rest well at night. Well I'll try with
this gold all right. Thanks John, I'll look forward to
next time, and thanks to all the VP members as
usual for joining us here for the after show. Until
next time, I'll be after John pier Marine and this
is Wade Teller running off.
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