1959 False Defectors

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Speaker 1: Good morning everybody, Corey us Blood History. Sorry, I haven't

had a show in a couple of weeks. I've been

crunching to try to get this book finished by the

end of the month. It looks like i'll get it done.

I should be finished with volume two of A Warning

from History by Friday. That's the goal anyway. But today

what I want to do is I'm going through John

Armstrong's files in preparation to going back to my next book,

which is going to be on Oswald and the Marines.

And so I'm going through more Armstrong file. I've been

in touch with John Armstrong in the past couple of weeks.

We've exchanged four or five messages through Jimbo, an intermediary,

but at least he's responding to me, which is really good.

He's really stubborn. Some of the things he concluded are wrong.

He just doesn't want to hear it. But oh, I'll

get him to come around. So today we're going to

go through a file in Armstrong's collection at Baylor University

labeled nineteen fifty nine Non Military Defectors. Looks like it's

kind of a thrown together from a bunch of different sources.

And so a lot of it's on Robert Webster, I think.

But let's see what we got here. The first page

says it looks like it's clipped from a book. August

twenty ninth, nineteen seventy four. In nineteen fifty nine, three

American men defected to the Soviet Union, a man named

Rick Hardelli, Robert Edward Webster, and Lee Harvey Oswald. All

three returned to the United States in nineteen sixty two.

Katia Ford testified that when she asked Marina Oswald will

cause Lee to go to Russia, Marina said Lee went

to the Soviet Union for the Rand Corporation to help

set up the American exhibit at the World Trade Exposition

in Moscow. Obviously, Marina had her defectors confused. Rand Corporation

was the cover story used by Robert Webster. Were the

masterminds behind the John Kennedy assassination, pairing three potential patsies

to his backups in the event that one failed. The

performers directed, did the stars ordain the nineteen fifty nine

defections and the nineteen sixty two repatriations, or was prior

planning for the killing of Kennedy? Really going on in

nineteen fifty nine. All right, Next it appears to be

a single page. Looks like a telegram, says American Embassy London,

Limited official use from Stockholm. Got a bunch of codes

and stuff here, and then it says limited official use Stockholm,

fifteen thirty nine, London for legal attache Paris for Hanley One.

Herald Citronelle born New York, New York, March tenth, nineteen

twenty three. Bearer US passport issued November seventh, nineteen sixty three,

New York. Called at Embassy Stockholm June twenty sixth to

renounce formally US citizenship. Consular officer asked he considers seriousness

of the act overnight, but he reappeared June twenty seventh,

determined to renounce. In a written statement, Citronelle claims his

constitutional rights being violated by US secret agencies, including FBI

and CIA, among other things, claims tampering with his male,

illegal searches, entry into his home, and physical abuse during

course prolonged interviews. Stated that he had been accused of

being involved in the assassination of President Kennedy because he

emigrated to the USSR for two years in fifty eight

and fifty nine with wife and small child. Upon returning US,

wife divorced him and she has custody of child. Says

he is unable to hold a job in the US

because of interference by the intelligence agencies. Has been living

in Zurich the past year, but arrived Sweden a month

ago and so of a job. It says he cannot

get work permit. While in Scandinavia. It claims to be

consulting engineer. Although distraught, he appears mentally competent. Citronelle will

call it embassy June thirtieth to complete formal renunciation accordance

Section three forty nine request guidance including any background information

exempt health. Citronelle will call it embassy June thirtieth to

complete formal renunciation. And looks like that is it for

this page. I never heard of this guy, Citronelle. All right, Next,

we're going to have a couple pages on Robert Webster.

This is a handwritten document, so bear with me as

I work through it. Robert E. Webster, an employee of

the Rand Development Company, made several trips to the Soviet

Union in order to prepare for the nineteen fifty nine

US exhibition in Moscow. While there for seven weeks beginning

May fifty nine, Webster steadily dated the hostess in Lloyd

at the Hotel Ukraine's tourist restaurant. The informed they informed

her that he wished He informed her that he wished

to divorce his wife in the US and marry her

when he returned from short necessary visit to the US.

Webster stated that if he moved to the Soviet Union,

his wife would not be able to touch him. Webster

first revealed his destined to destined to defect on July eleventh,

nineteen fifty nine. Hold on, I'm just pausing here for

a second, because he defected July eleventh, fifty nine. What

happened July eleventh, fifty nine. Well, I don't know what

happened July eleven, fifty nine, but in July of fifty nine,

I have three documents that indicate that Oswald got out

of the Marines in July of fifty nine. Were they

trying to send Oswald to the Soviet Union in July

but he couldn't do it, so they sent Webster instead.

That's a possibility. The two top Soviet officials in charge

of arrangements for the exhibition were entirely something at the fairgrounds.

When Webster approached them, he requested information concerning the procedures

for a US citizen to remain in the Soviet Union,

and he related that he was the US citizen interested

in doing so. Webster was told to call one of

the officials in the soul k Minski Park office and

meeting would be set up. The did also. They did so,

and the meeting was set in a restaurant. Within the

next few days. The English speaking official he had met

with previously was waiting outside the restaurant and escorted Webster

to a private room. There, he met a representative of

the Soviet government who questioned him about his interest to

remain in the Soviet Union, especially if he had spoken

to Americans about it. Webster states after the meal, when

he was foggy with vodka, he was told to write

a letter to the Supreme Soviet requesting he remained in

the USSR as a Soviet citizen. Then he did so

and was instructed not to mention his intention to defect

to anyone. Webster was given a biographic data sheet to

take with him and fill out. Another meeting Webster submitted

the data sheet containing his reason for leaving the US.

Employers in the US higher a man then fire him

when he has learned the job. This reason was not

accepted because Webster said it had not happened to him.

They rewrote it, stating big business in the US was

controlled by the government and he wanted to work league,

learn the Russian language, earn a degree, and get married

and have children and cooperate in every way within the

Soviet Union. The Soviet authors tried to dissuade Webster from

leaving the US. In the last of July or early August,

Webster again met again with Soviet officials in what he

described as a serious no drinking meeting in a I

can't read that something reason. In the restaurant at the

Metropol Hotel, the two Soviet chemists asked if he could

help them make the rand spray gun demonstrated at the

US exhibition. Webster said yes, and September ninth was told

he had been accepted by the Soviets. This was after

the exhibition had ended and three days before he was

scheduled to depart. Webster was told he would work in Leningrad,

not Moscow as he had requested. The following day, Webster

was taken to the Bucharest Hotel and registered by the

Soviet officials he had been meeting with. He was told

not to leave and given a thousand rubles as instructed.

Webster had left a note to a random employee, a

doctor Cordroy looks like, stating he was on a tour

of the Soviet Union and money should be left for

him at the hotel. There was a short party for

Webster on September eleventh, and he was flown to Leningrad

with an interpreter and met by an in tourist representative.

He applied for work at the Leningrad Scientific Something Institute

polymerized plastics and lived in the Baltiskaya Hotel for a month. Something.

This was allowed. He was allowed to call his girlfriend

and she was allowed to visit, and I something plans

for a vacation. On October seventeenth, nineteen fifty nine, Webster

was staying in Moscow. He attended a meeting at the

Central Office Visas and Registration with the original Soviet representative.

He had contact with an unknown Soviet HJ. Rand. His assistant,

George Bookbinder and Richard E. Snyder of the US Embassy.

Webster states he was free to speak and told Snyder

when he had applied for Soviet citizenship, when he had

been accepted, and that he had been granted a Soviet passport.

On September twenty first, nineteen fifty nine. He states, he

filled out a form entitled Affidavit of Expatriated Person and

wrote his resignation to Ran Development Corporate. Webster explained that

he had lied in his Affidavid that he had no

Soviet documentation at the time, leaving in his possession an

American passport, which he never sent to Snyder as requested.

Webster states the Soviets had instructed him to say his

reasons for defecting were political. Webster's girlfriend joined the following

day and both went on a month vacation the Svetland.

I can't read this word senate looks like sanatorium, but

I wouldn't think so in Sochi. They returned to Leningrad

and began to work at the institute. His girlfriend employed

as an assistant and translator. Webster received two hundred and

eighty rubles per month and a semi annual bonus of

fifty to sixty rubles and a new apartment building and

had three rooms with a bath. Webster received his Soviet

internal passport around December fifty nine to June of nineteen

sixty after writing a summary of his life, listing his

relatives and where they worked, submitting pictures of himself, and

undergoing a medical examination. He turned over his American passport

and obtained the Soviet passport at THEVR office in Leningrad.

On January twenty seventh, nineteen sixty, a letter was delivered

to Webster from his father. It said his mother had

a nervous breakdown and he had taken responsibility for the

support of for the support of Webster's children in the US.

Webster decided to return to the US, but told no

one until May. The original Soviet representative from Moscow arranged

for Webster and his girlfriend to visit Moscow for the

May Day celebration. Webster took a taxi to the US

embassy and it was not challenged by the Soviet guards

due to his American clothing. The informed John McVicar. They informed

John McVicar that he wished to return to the United

States and was told to apply for a Soviet exit visa.

Webster sent a request to his father for two notarized

invitations for his return to the United States and two

copies of these sent to the American Embassy. Told his girlfriend,

and although he was annoyed, she helped him fill out

the application for a Soviet exit visa. She also gave

her consent for the visa, which he was required. Webster's

girlfriend gave birth to Svetlana Robert Turna Webster in August

of nineteen sixty. She was immediately adopted by Webster and registered.

During the majority of the time after this, Vetlana's Soviet

grandmother also lived in the Webster apartment. Webster was assigned

to a new translator at the institute. Two months after

submitting the application for a Soviet exit visa, Webster was

turned down and told he could not apply for one year.

Soviet official visited from Moscow inquiring why he was unhappy,

and suggested that he send for his family from the US.

Something okay. One year later, he reapplied in February sixty two.

Webster was granted a Soviet exit visa. In March of

sixty two, in American Embassy something informed Webster his exit

visa had been granted, gave Webster instructions on how to

obtain an American entrance visa. His father sent him a

plane ticket for his passage home, and Webster quit his job.

It was May before Webster before Webster actually surrendered his

internal Soviet passport for his exit visa. Webster arrived in

the US as an alien on Russian quota May twentieth,

nineteen sixty two. Kind of funny, Oswald's back home less

than a month later. Right, they got everyone out of

there by the end of sixty two. Why is that? Well,

from what I can tell, the AE Balcony program ran

from you know, mid fifty nine through sixty two, and

it seems like by sixty two they were getting all

the defectors out of there. This had to have been

overseen by the eighty Balcony program. Right next, it seems

to end that letter, and then we have here, Surgeon,

some kind of CIA controlled document form Sergeant Ernie Fletcher

two one Dash two eight nine, Dash two three seven

no additional information on Fletcher. State security files contained information

regarding three defectors who qualify for State Department lists but

are not included there. That's Nicholas Petrulli, Daniel sem semm

I can't read that. And then Herbert Lee Northrop refines

to list attached to letters from mister Hugh S. Cummings,

Junior of the State Department to mister Richard Bissel of

the Agency Data October twenty fifth, nineteen sixty to verify

and expand defector list. Quote Memorandum for Deputy Director of

Security from M. D. Stevens, subject American defectors. Third Agency

documents cross reference US Army Document fourteenth January sixty five.

Reference Fletcher, Department of the Army ASCI DSCO fourteenth of

January sixty five Relisting of US defectors. All right. Next,

it seems to be a cover sheet, says original notes

of Johanna Smith. I don't know if that's going to

go anywhere. Oh yeah, it does. Here we go, all right.

Classification CIA is no objection to the declassification. All right.

Nicholas Petrouli's two oh one seven sixty one three five

four data bar thirteenth February nineteen twenty one, Brooks, New

York sheet metal worker and did a bunch of odd jobs.

US residence Valley Stream, Long Island, nineteenth December fifty eighth,

married Helen Scholmer in Russia nineteen fifty seven. Divorced. She

resides with four year old daughter in Los Angeles. Runs

a candy business nineteen fifty eight. Personality clashes with superiors

made it impossible for him to hold down jobs. Worked

as a carpenter, sheet metal worker, acrobat, interesting draftsman, in

grocery clerk. Early August fifty nine deported New York on

an organized tour to Western Europe, and the USSR said

he paid nine to sixty five. May have had help

from brother with whom he lived, because except for irregular

workings income, he had only pension of forty four dollars

to him and his wife's supportive child. Right August nineteen

fifty nine, entered Soviet Union at Viborg on regular seven

day tourist visa issued in Washington July twentieth fifty nine.

On went to Leningrad in Moscow the next day, August

nineteen fifty nine. During his tour, group to something for

Leningrad there to bond. I can't read this. This is

all scribble the Baltica for fucking something. I don't know.

I don't know what the fuck it says. Okay, so

an American labor. There's another one that's handwritten. An American labor.

Nicholas Petrulli purchased and organized tour to Western Europe in

the USSR for nine to sixty five. He entered the

Soviet Union at Viborg on August tenth, fifty nine, using

a regular seven day tourist visa issued in Washington the

previous month. The tour passed through Leningrad and Moscow, where

it was to remain until August eighteenth. Patrulli did not

show up at the train station to depart from Moscow.

He canceled his ship reservations through an in tourist guide

and remained at the Ukraine Hotel. Patrullly spoke to several

Americans in the hotel restaurant the following week about his

decision to remain in the Soviet Union, and he had

no communistic sympathies or ideologic leanings towards the USSR and

had no grievances against the United States. Patrullly believed there

was a good opportunity to obtain employment in the Soviet Union,

although he did not know the language, people or country.

A resident American correspondent encouraged Petruli to tell the embassy

in Moscow about his intention to defect. On August twenty eighth,

nineteen fifty nine, Patrulli was interviewed for two hours by

an embassy official. Snyder, the correspondent was present when Petrulli

explained his reasons, his reasons for staying, and how he

had learned the procedure for remaining from the hotel manager

and Inturist Guide. He stated no one had induced or

influenced him. Patrullly stated that upon the guide's advice, he

had drafted a letter to the Supreme Soviet requesting Soviet citizenship,

but had not sent it yet. It stated that he

had formed the Interist Guide he was virtually out of money,

and they did, however, something have possession of a ship

and plane ticket. Before his return to the US, Patrulli

was given the name of a Catholic priest in Moscow

he subsequently spoke to had warnings about possible exploitation, etc.

The following day, Petrullly sent the letter to the Supreme

Soviet until the embassy. It contained five points is specified

by the Interest Guide. The Dayton Place of birth, names

and addresses of relatives, property and bank accounts, skills, education

and work, and his ideological reasons for wanting to stay

in the Soviet Union and get citizenship, but truly would

not relate what he had written for numbers on if

it was derogatory to the US. I don't know what

that means. Patrullly visited the American Embassy September tewod fifty nine,

turned in his passport and stated he had sent the

letter to the Soviet Supreme and asked to renounce his

US citizenship. Snyder explained the irrevocability of renunciation and told

Patrulli to return in the afternoon. He did so, and

m and Snyder administered the oath of renunciation. Something people

were told by Patrulli that he felt mentally and economically

at home in the Soviet Union, that they were trying

to do things right, that people were not in a

hurry and nervous wrecks, and said that he add something

jobs there, that he was not happy, and that he

did he liked the Soviet Union better. Patrullly visited the

American Embassy again on September eighth, fifty nine, and then

asked for a written statement of his citizenship status for

the Soviet authorities. When told the embassy would inform him

as soon as the State Department informed them, patruly began

requesting information and on something something visa requirements to the US.

The Soviets of Soviet authorities had also not responded to

his letters on the job requests and patroll. He felt

he was getting the run around. This hotel was being

paid for by the Soviets, but he was without money, friends,

and the ability to communicate with patrol with Russians. Patrullly

left the embassy and the whole told an American correspondent

he just wanted to go home. September fourteenth, nineteen fifty nine,

Soviet official informed Patrulli that he should have applied at

the Soviet Embassy in Washington for citizenship. The manager of

the Ukraine hotel told him he had two days to

vacate the premises. Both men told him he had to

leave the Soviet Union and needed some type of traveling

document from the American embassy. The next day, Petrulli was

back at the embassy. Is unknown if he applied for

a passport during this visit, but a September nineteenth, nineteen

fifty nine newspaper stated that the State Department had declared

Petrullly legally incompetent and returned his US citizenship. He was

given a one way passport to the United States and

returned home to New York September twenty second, nineteen fifty nine.

That's an interesting one. No person of the right mind

would ever try to defect the goddamn Soviet Union. So

all these people have to be fucking intelligence, all right.

So next one, says CIA Historical Review Program released in

ninety six, foreigners left USSR without Soviet spouse, and we

have a whole bunch of them here. And then there's

a whole list of them. Let me see if I

canna read these names. Arlene stern, Za Selaska, Leonard Kersh,

Clark Olsen, Philip Nielsen, Thomas Nagarti, Robert Tucker, Luciano Bassani,

Imilcaro Selati, Giovanni I Lex say, these aren't all Americans.

These are motherfuckers who came to the Soviet Union, married somebody,

then left without the spouse. Interesting, all right. Not known

whether they left the US star together as a whole

nother list here Soviet spouse accompanied foreigners. David Alan Packler

is the name associated with that. All right, so it

looks like we're moving on to a different section of this.

This next cover sheet's got a bunch of familiar names

like Sylvia Odio and Richard Hathcock and whatnot. Let's see

what this is going to uncover. Well, it appears as

though this file we'll move into some non defection related stuff,

so let's just go ahead and continue on with it.

This is a letter to Dave Marston from Gayton Phonsie.

It says, following up on the remote possibility with Sylvia

Odio in late September sixty three, was a guy who

had a mohawk haircut. Earlier in the year, I contacted

Richard Hathcock in Los Angeles. He's working in an investigative

branch of county government now. According to CD one one

seventy nine, he was operating a store called Adventurer's Corner

in LA when Dick Wattley came in earlier and with

two other men, all three of whom were wearing green fatigues,

and one of the men was wearing a mohawk haircut.

CD one one seven nine lists Watley's address as the

same one that was used at the time by Jerry

Patrick Hemming and Howard Davis. Checked the Bio Pauly article

for Davis's interesting connections. Hathcock says CD one one seventy

nine had known Watley for several years, and when Lauren

Hall and Jerry Patrick Hemming came in to borrow money

on that thirty E to six sniper rifle, they introduced

themselves as friends of Dick Wattley. Hemming confirmed that to me,

I specifically remember redundantly questioning him about that, and aside

in writing about the initial misidentification of the mankur Karkano

as a seven point sixty five German mauser by Deputy

Sheriff Seymour Weitzmann, a former sporting goods store manager, Robert

sam Anson notes what makes the transmogrification of a large

caliber German carbine into a smaller Boer Italian bolt action

especially intriguing is that in the assassination attempt against General

Edwin Walker, which Marina had laid at the feet of

her husband, the bullet, which was later declared too mangled

for positive identification, was originally identified as a thirty six,

the same caliber as a seven point sixty five millimeter

rifle bullet. Hathcock struck me as very open and cooperative

in his conversation with me. He said he couldn't recall

the names of the two other men who were with Wattley,

but he does remember one of them was wearing a

mohawk haircut. He said that time has naturally made his

recollection hazy, and his conversation at the time was almost

entirely with Wattley. I remember his saying something about him

knowing that they were going to be sold out at

the Bay of Pigs, and that's why he got out

of it. But he does think now that his fellow

with the mohawk was Latin looking. When I asked him

if Angelo or Leopaldo could have been either of the names,

he couldn't swear to it under oath, but Leopaldo strikes

a vague chord. It does sound quite familiar Leopoldo's Lawrence Howard,

so no, it wasn't. I asked him if he might

know where Wattley might be now, and he said he

hasn't seen him since the time mentioned on the report,

But he suggested Jerry Patrick might know because it was

through Hemming and Hall that I met Wattley. I asked,

you met Hemming and Hall prior to knowing Wattley. Oh, yeah, sure,

I'm positive about that. I'm still trying to figure out

the significance of why Heming would lie to me about that.

Hemming also, obviously Hemming also obviously fed me some misinformation

about the check that Lauren Hall left with Hathcock when

he returned to pick up the Eiffel. According to CD

one seventy nine, the check was drawn on the account

of the Committee to Free Cuba. Heming said that that

was an organization run by doctor Tirso del Junco, a Cuban.

When I asked Hathcock if he'd been involved with an

anti castro activity in himself, he said only in an

indirect way. He said there was a fellow named Matt

Sivetic from Pittsburgh who years ago was an FBI informant

inside the Communist Party. He had gained recognition as a

result of his testimony before a Senate committee. Sivedic said,

Hathcock thereafter came out to California and with doctor del Junco,

and after a few other prominent citizens have found a

committee called Free Cuban Now. Hathcock and Sevetic had asked

him to act as a pr guy for that, and

for a while he did. He said he went to

only a couple of meetings. When I asked him if

the Free Cuban Now Committee was what Lauren Hall might

have written on the check, he said, oh, no, I'm

sure it wasn't on that he had nothing to do

with that committee. Hathcock may have been wrong about his

recollection of the name of that committee. When I checked

with doctor del Junko, he said it was called the

American Committee to Free Cuba. It was, as Hathcock said,

a group composed mostly of prominent Californians. Del Junco says

that he absolutely has no recollection to the name of

Lauren Hall and doesn't know Jerry Patrick Hemming. He's pretty

sure the committee's account was at the Bank of America

or California Bank, or some other major bank. In fact,

he says he'd never heard of the Citizens Bank in

the area. Doctor del Junco says he doesn't see how

Lauren Hall could have had anything to do with a

check involving his committee. He says his group was strictly

a local organization, had no Miami connections, was not involved

in with Manuel our time, and did not aid or

fund any specific anti Castro activities. Although his committee wasn't

involved with any other Doctor del Junco did say he

used to speak regularly for doctor Schwartz's Christian anti communist crusade.

He wasn't involved, he said, with doctor Hargus. And when

I asked him I he had any connection with CUSA,

he gave me a definite no funny. He didn't ask

me what it meant. So I think, despite what heming

tells me that del Junco and his American Committee to

Free Cuba is a dead end. And as far as

connections with Lauren Hall goes, the question is now, why

the misinformation and where and what was the Committee to

Free Cuba to which account Hall wrote that check against

Right now, I have two suspicions. One is the possibility

of a link with the Free Cuba Committee that Hunt

says was set up at mullinin Company under cover page

one forty one. The other, less conspiratorial, is an association

with Texas oil man Lester Log, although I doubt Log

would set up a front since he contributed directly to

Hall on Hemming and other right wing and or other

anti Castro groups. Third possibility as a connection with connection

with a Free Cuba committee mentioned by Anson on page

two fifty that was a New Orleans group which supported

Carlos Bregier, and says Anson at one time or another

attracted David Fair, He Serge Arcata Smith, and Gordon Novel,

and possibly even Oswald. The first possibility would be tough

to check. I'll try to check with log on the

second one if I can reach him. I'll check with

Bregnier on the third when I get to New Orleans. Meanwhile,

I've also got to come up with some information that

indicates that Heming was strangely enough telling me the truth

about one incident relating to Hall. There is a Miami

Police Department Interoffice report dated November first, nineteen sixty three,

which indicates that Heming reported that Hall had just stolen

two guns from him, one a Jungle Carbine whatever that is,

and the other a Savage twenty two. However, the report

also states that Heming claimed that this same fellow Hall

had recently stolen the Johnson thirty eight six from him

in California Hall did retrieve it from Hathcock on September eighteenth.

Now do you see now? You see it? Now you don't, eh?

And whatever did happen to Dick Waltley? Well, Heming told

me he was now working with the Drug Enforcement Administration

out of the CIA station at Homestead. So yesterday I

visited the DEA headquarters there, which is the story in

and of itself. The DEA is housed here in something

called the Phoenix Building, in a fancy, new and large

office center on the edge of the city. DEA has

the whole building and an impressive modernistic structure which looks

like the corporate headquarters of a multinational operation, which I

guess it is the office of the deputy director. The

guy I met with is larger than the senators. You

can't help getting the impression that DEA is a very

special government agency. Deputy Director David Costa told me that

there is no Dick Watley working for the DEA, either

as an agent or an informant. So as far as

Watley goes, I hit another stone wall. But my visit

with Costa turned out not totally unprofitable. I'd come up

with a letter as you may recall from Costa to

the federal judge handling the Sturgis auto theft case, indicating

that Sturgis had worked with the DEA in the case

involving a major narcotic smuggler that actually came about through

his friendship with Jerry Buchanan, who was the inside informant

on the case. Buchanan and his brother Jim were involved

with Sturgison putting out the phony Oswald in Miami stories. Interestingly,

Costa told me it was Sturgis who approached DEA about

working for them. He said he had a lot of

connections into the Cuban community and would be a valuable

informant on drug trafficking. Costa said they turned him down

as an informant because he was on parole, but they

have used him on occasion to place their men into situations,

with Sturgis providing the introductions. I specifically asked if Sturgis

had provided any information about the drug involvement of Manuel

Our Time or any of his associates. He hasn't. It's

funny because Pico, who himself is in contact with Our Time,

and Meskill both indicated to me that Sturgis is still

in regular contact with our Time, but talking with Costa

and his man who dealt with Sturgis, a guy in

a DEA's conspiracy section named Bill Warner, I got the

impression they didn't consider our Time a major figure, which

is very contrary to the information I have from other

and I think very informed sources. Costa says Surgis was

very valuable because he helped make a case against the

Fort Lauderdale guy named Kenneth Bernstein, who was flying tons

of pot a week. We wanted Bernstein so badly we

could taste it. As Warner put it, he had a

big operation. It so happens at Bernstein was also an

independent operator. If you think I'm applying something with an

impression I'm getting about DEA's operations, well that's your paranoia,

which brings up Mitch Verbell. Costa didn't want to talk

too much about Verbell because his trial's coming up March second,

But if you haven't read it yet, I thought i'd

point out some interesting things in that Burger clipping I

sent you about Warbel. Rebell remains a mystery character to

me because of his long involvement with gun running, especially

the possibility of his involvement with Joe Morola and Ruby's

Rabbi Norman Rothman in that's added to the information about

Ruby himself possibly doing some dealing, his association with Lt.

Gray Moss Ferrar in the Haitian caper, and moss Ferrara's

very close relation to David Ferry's pal Aladio del Vallier,

and of course he is obvious links with the CIA.

The points in this piece that fascinate me Rebel's indication

that he and Vesco were involved together in CI operation,

possibly setting up a plant to produce assassination devices, Rebel's

long and close personal relationship with Lucian Conine, the retired

CIA agent now running DEA specials operation. Dave, could you

check Hunt's book about the meeting with Conine after the

DM assassination and send me a copy of reference, please.

Vesco's ability to call into DEA agents to electronically sweep

as home and the alleged bungling by the DEA of

an investigation of Vesco's involvement with heroin smuggling. Now we

tie all that in with Manuel, our time big man

in the Bay of Pigs operation in Howard Hunt's closest

buddy now being a major figure in narcotics, with Liban

Good's allegation there a link between our time Invesco with

the DEA here indicating they have no strong interest in

our time, with Sturgis working with the DEA but not

mentioning our times involvement with drugs. If my sources know it,

Sturgis must know with Coneine's conclusion with Hunt to lay

down the dm assassination on Kennedy and thereafter get a

key job with DEA. With Conine's relationship with Verbell, Rebell's

with Vescos, and back to Vescos with our time. We

obviously have only a latent image at this time, but

it sure looks like it has the possibility of developing

into a full circle, all right. And that brings us

to the end of that memo, which is weird because

it seems like right after that we go right back

to the defector stuff from fifty eight to sixty four.

So what we're gonna do is we're gonna call it

right here for today, guys, and we'll be back probably

tomorrow to pick up with more of this file. So

thank you guys for tuning in, and I'll be back then.

See you guys,