The Deaths of Kris Kremers and Lisanne Froon

The first true crime adjacent episode for the holiday week! This week Lauren and Amanda discuss the death of Kris Kremers and Lisanne Froon - an accident or a coverup? You decide!Sources:

• All That’s Interesting: Inside The Final Days Of Kris Kremers And Lisanne Froon And The Eerie Photos They Left Behind by Katie Serena
• Medium: The Kris Kremers and Lisanne Froon Case: What Panama Is Still Hiding in 2025
• Knox Pages: Found dead in Panama: New clues on 2014 cold case by Adam Doc Fox
• Wikipedia: Deaths of Kris Kremers and Lisanne Froon

Speaker 1: Hi Warriors, Welcome to Aren't You Worried? I'm your host

Lauren Perry and joining me this week back again one

of my should we say, tenured guests, my sister Amanda. Amanda,

Welcome back to Aren't You Worried? I'm so happy to

be here. I'm so happy you're here. How are you?

I'm good. I am two weeks away from my summer

class being done. I can't wait. Yay. Honestly, I think

I've totally blocked out that you were taking a summer

class because I've just been like, I get to speak

to my sister at least six times potential of ten.

I think I kind of forgot that like these short classes,

it's like a six or seven week class. Like the

short classes are like condensed material because it's supposed to

like a whole semester for this stuff. So it's been

probably like double you're already like stress of the Max. Yeah,

it's been a lot. It's thankfully not a class with

a ton of new concepts for me, so it's been

a little nicer where I've just been kind of it's

just a lot of busy work. We have to do

a discussion post for every module, and there's four to

six modules a week. Can I ask what class it

is or can you not tell me? It's professional responsibility

and ethics in showing important. But oh it's super important,

but also horribly boring for me having worked for the

government and a higher educational several higher educational institutions, kind

of second nature. Yeap, not a lot of new stuff

for me. Yeah, like if you, for example, if you

think your client is doing fraud, don't help them. Okay,

is that something people need to be told? Yes, yes,

it is people need to be told. Yeah, like apparently yes.

Unfortunately that is brand new to some people. While I

have you, I have a very very important question to

ask you. Okay, recently you told me that you watched

Heated Rivalry. I did watch Heated. I'm funny to watch

it again after my classes over, like immediately, how was it?

It was fantastic? I have many feelings. You probably are

aware of this, and me and my fictional character feelings

as like a book girly so like, I am so

attached to these people and actually I read the first

book in the series, which is about they're kind of

sade characters in the show, but they have one episode

devoted to them. I can't think of their names. It's

the Kip, Yeah, Kip and Scott Scott. Yeah, they had Yes,

I was already like I I the book before we

watch the show, and I like had so many feelings

about them, and I was like, they should have gotten

more airtime for one. Yes, but I understand that the

show was about book two. So I've been holding off

reading Book two until I'm done with class so I

can binge the book and then watch the show again.

M hm, So that's the plan. So I don't read,

which like is not great and I've been told but

like I read so much for the podcast that like

I just I would, I would thrive on audio books.

I just have to get there because I thrive on podcasts. Yes,

you would love audiobooks. I just like have to make

that switch. Yeah, and if you want romance, you have

to be okay with listening to sex scenes in your

in your years, that's the only Oh, totally say with audiobooks.

Totally fine, Like that would not be heard. Yeah, exactly,

like totally totally fine. Are kidding? Some of the funniest

tiktoks I see in like book talk are when a

husband will accidentally like connect a car, speak to the

wife's phone and she has her like smutty audiobook play

and he's like, yeah, what the fuck? A well, are

you ready to get into today's episode? I am okay,

and I don't remember at all what story you're telling me,

so it's not gonna be brand new information for me. Wonderful.

So because of the holiday week that we were in,

which I decided to tell you a true crime adjacent

episode today, okay, very excited to know what this is.

So I listened to a podcast called Hello Sidney, It's

a horror movie recap podcast. Tell me about a horror movie? No, okay,

but this the month of June was her theme was

called the Maps as We're Fucked. So they told us

about or she told us about ruins and like hostile

and green Inferno. So I was like, I think I'm

gonna I think Aman and I are gonna travel. Okay,

so I'm gonna tell you about something that happened abroad.

People have many opinions and theories about how this case ended.

Oh boy, okay, but officially nothing bad happened. Oh so,

so it's true crime adjacent. I don't want to get

anyone in their feels about it. I'm not saying one

way or another the Reddit community is absurd. Is absurd,

I mean people saying that people are stupid bitches for

thinking that something bad happened, people are dumb cunts for

thinking something bad happened, and people it's it's a cover up.

So I'm just gonna I'm gonna tell you what I know,

and you and I can have her own opinions. But

I'm telling you that officially it was an accident. Sure,

I love this already, Okay, perfect, are you ready? I

am so. I am going to tell you about the

death of Chris Kremer's and Lisa and Froun. Okay, they

are both from the Netherlands. Okay, So it's going to

be clunky at the beginning because I do not speak Dutch. Dutch, yes, yes,

and I only know of some Dutch names. I am

not proficient in Dutch. I went to a college that

was founded by the Dutch. I in college, my roommate

was dating a guy from the Netherlands, and so therefore

had a bunch of friends. And yes, yes, sorry it

sounded yes, you're correct, they did speak Dutch. But that

was twelve years ago, fifteen years old. Yeah, so I've

I've lost it all. So all I really know now

is well common welcome, welcome, Yeah, okay, fair enough, Okay,

So again I've been told I'm very arrogant for not

knowing how to pronounce it argant or ignorant, ignorant probably okay,

because you said arrogant before and I was like, is

that what that person meant when they said no, probably ignorant,

but like, I just don't know. And also a lot

of times when I do these kind of research, I

can't listen to it. Well, I know you're reading. Yeah, yes,

I've been in the same boat for sure, so bear

with me. Yeah, I promise it gets really bad, but

it gets better, okay, okay. So Chris Kremers was born

on August ninth, nineteen ninety two, and Lisan Frun was

born on September twenty fourth, nineteen ninety one. Both women

grew up in Amhersfruit providence of you trecked, Oh yeah,

you trecked in the Netherlands. That's kind of right, Utrecht.

But I don't know how to say it, and I've

seen the word. Okay, it's like maybe Utrecht Utrecht Province

of Utrecht in the Netherlands, something like that. Okay, I've

also never heard it. Yeah, like like one of those

things where I'm trying to just think of like vowel

pronunciation that I know of. Yeah, like what most funny

things that like my friend Jess or my roommate Jess

would be like, oh, Lauren, it's this way because she's

still friends with all these people. Yeah, but Otherland seems

like a lovely country. Ten out of ten would visit.

I did a layover in what's the famous city in

thenother Dam. Yeah, did a lay over there going to Germany.

We weren't allowed as high schoolers to spend more than

four hours there based on like our teachers and our parents,

which was fair. So I think we spent a total

of like one hour. Yeah. I remember through the airport

and being like, oh, this is where Amsterdam is and

that was it. I was like eighteen years old. Yeah.

So Lisa A. Frun was tall. She was six feet

which I just love. I would love to be six

feet tall. I think I think that is just it's superior.

I would love to look down on men, like physically

like physically over anyways. So leisam Frun was tall at

six feet. She was a volleyball player with athletic build,

and she played sports year round. People described her as methodical,

slightly reserved, and someone who planned everything, routes, schedules, want

to buy, where to study. She was very She was

type a very type, which I love. I wish I could.

Chris Kremer's was a year younger and she was five seven.

She had blonde hair and blue eyes, and she was

the spontaneous one of the two. Okay, she she was.

I was just kind of like, you know, Chris, let's

go do this thing, and or she was always like,

come on, Lisa, let's go do this thing. And Lisa

was like, Ana, we don't really have a plan because

like no, let's go do it. Like she feels like

that person that was like, I know, we have this plan,

but let's just go down. Let's take the other we're out. Yeah.

So sometimes, especially in friendships, you need the person who

is spontaneous, You need the person who plans to come together. Yes,

and then like one can kind of pull the other

into some spontanae and the other one can like keep

the spontantaneous, one from doing something two nuts. Yes, yes,

and that's exactly what it was. She was described as

wild and spontaneous. The two women started living together. They

also work together, and they were planning. They got this

job so that they could save a bunch of money

so that they could take a trip to Panama. Amazing. Yep,

it was gonna be the special holiday and it was

a trip that Lisaan got as a graduation from college. Present. Cool. Yes,

that's a long trip from the Netherlands. I didn't even

and I meant to. I didn't even look up how

far it is. But yes, Panama not close to no, well,

South America obviously, Like I know where Panama is. Is

it Central America? Central? Yeah, but it's like the southern

part of Central America because it's where the Panama Canal is. Oh,

don't cut through. Looks like there are a couple non stops.

OH through KLM, which is the Netherlands based Delta affiliate.

That's why there's so many Delta flights that stop over

in the Netherlands. That one's about twelve hundred. You can

go for under one thousand on United with a stop

at Newark, Oral Hair how long is the flight? The

non stops about eleven hours, okay, with the layovers they

had time? Yeah yeah, so oh, I'm assuming since they were,

you know, in their very early twenties, they were balling

on a budget. I'm assuming there was probably a stop

or two. I would think, yeah, but yeah, cheapest is

about eight hundred okay, yeah, and that's closer to like

seventeen eighteen hours total with the layovers. Yeah, yikes. I

mean yeah, with those flights, I think on the way there,

layovers are fine. On the way home, I just want

to get home.

Speaker 2: Yep.

Speaker 1: So, like example, this one on United that's just under

eight hundred dollars. They leave Amsterdam at nine ten am.

It's a little over eight hour flights in Newark, and

then they have almost a four hour layover in Newark

and it's another five hours to Panama. Yeah, so's it's long. Yeah.

Speaker 3: Long.

Speaker 1: I remember when I flew to Well, when I flew

to Germany, we went from MSP to Chicago, O'Hare oh

hair to Amsterdam, Amsterdam to Germany, and I think that

was about perfect because like your long leg, it was

it was a course overnight from Chicago to ANSWERDA was

a course overnight, which was fine. Yeah, that's why I

thought Scotland two was something very similar. I just hair

did the overnight to London. Yeah, London to Aberdeen in

the morning. I think that's what we did to get

to you as well. Probably, yeah, yeah, because it was

at that point that I got sick at Heathrow. Like,

I don't remember you being sick. Oh it was coming

out of both ends. Oh ew I didn't know that.

Oh yeah, sorry, that's okay. But like I just it

was one of those things where I'm happy it didn't

hit until I landed. But like that whole memory is

just like me in the bathroom. My mom was like,

I feel bad, but we also have a flood. Like so,

two girls, different types, but they were like sisters. Lisa

planned the roots, Chris pressed the buttons. Lisa An feared

Chris push her forward. Together, they felt stronger than a

part love that. Chris and Lisaan arrived in Panama on

March fifteenth, twenty fourteen. They arrived in Bocus de Bocus

del Toro on March seventeenth, and they stayed until March

twenty ninth. Bocus was about freedom and youth. Lisann wrote

in a diary red Frog Beach, one word amazing, saw

a dolphin, drank from a real coconut. The two women

spent so cute. It is like no one they're from,

you know, a place like the Netherlands where they don't

have beaches, they don't have nuts, like yeah, yeah, I

mean Minnesota landlocked. I mean you, I don't count the

great legs. So like I feel like it's a similar

ish experience. Yes. Sure. The two women spent their evenings

at a local bar and they danced the night away

with men that they met. Okay. On March twenty ninth,

the two moved the trip to Bouquet. The plan. The

plan had been to stay with a host family and

work at a local school. I believe they were going

to teach Dutch to cool local school kids. Yep, okay,

But it appears that they arrived a little too early

to this. Their job wasn't ready yet. So they had

a couple down days where they could just kind of

explore and do that, and that's exactly what they did.

They wanted to see the sites, they wanted to go

hiking and go on all these trails, and honestly it

was perfect for them. Boquet is known as the Cloud

Forest for how high the altitude was. I've heard of

the Cloud Forest. The pictures incredible, It's like you, of

course you can. This looks beautiful. Yeah, Bouquette, I was

gonna say that's pronounced correct. I think so. But it

offers easy access to the famous Lost Waterfalls trail. Yes,

like just gorge. I'm choosing to believe that just accidents happen.

In this case. It does look spooky in some of

the photos, yea, with the fog and stuff. Yes, I'm

just choosing to believe that accidents happen, that there's no

nefarious stuff. Oh, this is what I wanted. So I

was listening to the maps as We're fucked month, which

is the month of June on Hello Sidney, and she

did The Green Inferno, which I know you would hate

because it's about cannibalism. No, but no, it is a

movie I watch all the time, The Green Inferno. Yes,

it has Juni from Spy Kids. Oh it's an Eli

Roth movie, which fuck Eli Roth. But I do like

his movies, even the I don't even I don't even

know what the poster is terrifying. Oh yeah, yeah, So

So the Green Inferno is how I thought about telling

you this case because it's so good. The first time

I watched it, I had an ex boyfriend and he

was like, I've seen the grossest movie ever. I was

thinking Cannibal Holocaust, which I still have never seen I

probably won't ever see. He's like, no, it's a Green Inferno.

It's a comfort movie. It's so good. It's amazing. I'm

just saying, so you would hate it. Horror movie connoisseurs

would love. Okay, So in a few days to explore book,

is that we think That's what I'm guessing. Okay. On

April first, twenty fourteen, Chris Kremers and Lisa and Frun

left their host families home to take the family's dog

for a walk through the scenic forest around the Beru

Volcano in Bookette, Panama. The weather was good and Chris

suggested that the two go up the mountain see the sights,

and it was going to be a very short hike

and they'd be back by noon, so few hours. Don't

have a bad feeling, but okay. Lisa An knew the

risks her parents had how her to be careful. Her

diary was full of mentions of caution, but she went

maybe because Chris was there. They were kind of the

ying to each other's yang, which is great. They it

was going to be you know, three hours tops. It

was a casual hike for them. They left in light clothing,

with one backpack between the two of them, two water bottles,

and a camera. I have a bad feeling. So at

eleven am, the girl set out for the Pianista Trail,

a popular route to two thousand meters elevation. Okay, that's

like six thousand people. Sure. Sorry, I didn't even think

to make that conversion. I'm so sorry. I like the

immediate Sure, I didn't even think to make the conversion.

I'm so sorry because like to me, like to me,

they're in the Netherlands and they're in Panama, so like

they use the metric system, we're the dumb ass. I

just went right on past it. Sorry. So that was

at eleven am. At one pm, the last daytime photo

was taken, Chris was crossing a stream beyond the Metador lookout.

At thirty nine pm. The first emergency call to one

one two went, but there was no signal.

Speaker 3: Let's take a quick break look for this deep dive.

We're just impartially examining the evidence. But to understand this

twenty eighteen case, you you have to start at.

Speaker 1: The raid right January twenty third.

Speaker 3: Yeah, law enforcement before dawn, weapons drawn on his wife,

on his on their wedding anniversary, and his father's birthday. Wow,

his career, I mean, over two hundred credits just wiped

out all over an alleged extortion involving well, Kevin Hart,

Kevin Heart.

Speaker 1: But look at the source documents.

Speaker 3: ELEAD investigator testified under oath zero extortion in the emails

zero to zero three and a half years, three active

legal proceedings.

Speaker 1: Right now, I'm assuming that's like the nine one one

yes service and okay, yep, and well one one two

I think is the emergency signal in the Netherlands. Oh, okay, okay,

So that was at four thirty nine pm after that silence, okay.

On the night of April first, the host family noticed

that something was wrong. Their dog had returned safe and sound,

but alone. The girls were nowhere to be found. The

host family searched the area around their home, but decided

to wait until morning to alert authorities.

Speaker 3: Yeah.

Speaker 1: On April second, Chris and Le San missed an appointment

with a local tour guide who was supposed to take

them on a private walking tour of Boket, which promoted

the host family to alert authorities. The next morning, an

aerial search of the forest was conducted, as well as

the search of the village and lightly wooded areas by locals.

Fearing the worst, the families of Chris Kremer's and Lee

San Frun flew to pay, bringing with them detectives from

the Netherlands. They didn't trust the Panamanian Okay, yeah, it

leads into the lore ah I see. Yeah. Along with

local police and dog units, they searched the forest for

ten days. Okay, days turned into weeks. Wait did they

bring dogs in the Netherlands? Uh? Local police, they don't

even trust the dogs. So along with local police and

dog units, they searched the forest for ten days. It's

a long time. Days turned into weeks. Yeah, and after

ten weeks there was still no sign of either Chris

or Lizia. Ten weeks, helicopters, dogs, hundreds of volunteers, Oh

my lord, nothing like they disappeared into thin air. Yeah sheesh.

June fourteenth, twenty fourteen, a local woman finds a blue

backpack on a river bank fourteen kilometers from the trail. Again,

my arrogant self did not do that adjustment. Fourteen kilometers

is about nine miles, eight or nine miles, okay, perfect.

I was like, yeah, you run, yeah, ten k's and whatever.

You you could probably do that. Yeah, okay, So how

many fourteenilometers? We're gonna guess nine miles? Somewhere in the

eight to nine range. Perfect. Inside of this blue backpack

a camera with ninety nine strange night photos, two phones

with puzzling logs, eighty three dollars in cash, documents, all intact,

everything dry. Found on a riverbank. Odd, so it was

found completely dry after ten weeks of rainy season in

the jungle. Well, that means someone must have dropped it

off there, right, Okay, conspiracy theories, okay, okay. Sorry. Police

immediately investigated the camera and phones and came up with

disturbing evidence. The phones had remained in service for almost

ten days after the woman disappeared. Over four days, seventy

seven separate attempts had been made to call the police,

both via the one one two, the emergency number for

the Netherlands, and nine to one one, the emergency number

in Panama. Oh okay. Using the call logs, police were

able to come up with an outline of the time

the girl spent missing in the forest. They must have

been panicked. Oh my gosh. The first two emergency calls

had been just hours after Lisa and Chris had begun

their hike to the had begun their hike, and those

were two the one one two emergency number. Due to

the dense jungle, neither at time hemps went through. Yeah,

and this was twenty fourteen. Yes okay. In fact, out

of all seventy seven calls, only one managed to make

contact but broke up just after two seconds. Police also

discovered that on April sixth, several unsuccessful attempts were made

to unlock Chris's phone with an incorrect pin number. It

never received the correct pin number again by April what

was the date, Sorry, April sixth, So they went on

the first yep. So five days later, someone's trying to

use an incorrect pin number. Yep, okay, And by April eleventh,

both phones were dead. Yeah, I'm surprised. The last of

that long same They turned them on and off throughout this,

but I mean back then, it could have been a

brickier phone too. Yeah, could have been, could have been,

and I never even looked. Also, I feel like that

was still the time where you got an international phone,

you didn't necessarily take your actual phone with you totally. Yep. Like,

when I went to Scotland, I had a separate phone,

yep for like, which was which was weirdly brickier than

what we had, and the battery lasted way longer. But yep,

that's true. Though the call ou was disturbing, there was

nothing compared to what they found on the camera. Yikes. Okay.

The first photos on the camera were taken the morning

of April first, when the women had left for their hike.

The photo show Chris and Lisa and on the trail

at the continent at the Continental Divide. But nothing about

those pictures was suspicious. Yeah. However, the second set of

photos was worrisome. They were taken in the dead of night,

between the hours of one am and four am on

April eighth. The photo showed the girls belongings spread out

on rocks, plastic bags, candy wrappers, oddly piled mounds of dirt,

a mirror, and most concerning the back of Kremers's head

with blood leaking from her temple. What the fuck. After

investigating the area where the backpack had been found, police

uncovered Chris's clothing neatly folded on the edge of the river.

Two months later, in the same area, of pelvic bone

and a foot still inside of a boot were found. Yikes.

I hate that. Soon after that, the bones of both

women were discovered. Lisan Frun's bones looked as if they

had decomposed naturally, as if they were as there were

still bits of flesh attached to them. Lisan Kre Lisa,

I'm sorry. Chris Kremers's bones were stark white, looking like

they were bleached. Creepy. I suppose if this is woods, right,

so it's not like a lot of heavy sunlight correct

to bleach bones. Correct? Also, and like they're all time stamped.

But I also feel like, if you're that deep in

the woods, it's all dark. Yeah, doesn't really matter what

time it is to them, not knowing necessarily it was

all ninety to them. I would think night would be darker,

but if assurance, yes, it's going to be just dark, yeah,

police questioned the locals. Tour guides and other hikers who

had been in the area at that time, but nothing

besides the photos are call logged, provided them with any

evidence of what had happened. There wasn't even enough evidence

to determine the cause of death. That's so creepy. To

this day, the disappearance and death deaths of Chris Kramer's

and Lisan frun remain a harrowing mystery. The official verdict accident,

the two girls got lost and fell into the river,

and the case was closed as of March of twenty fifteen. Huh,

So that I got all this information from and all

that's interesting article. So that's where the all that's interesting

article ends. But then I found an article on medium

that kind of gets more into the lure. So let's

go there. Okay, the facts say otherwise it was not

an accident. Yeah, I was gonna say, this is like

an accident to me at all. The deaths could have

been accidental, the being, the getting lost, and the missingness

doesn't sure like they could have died of exposure, But

that's what I think happened. Yeah, but that doesn't mean

that them, like the photos and stuff, were accidental. I'll

get into them, Okay, people talk about natives, Oh, of

course they do. And cannibalism. No, people talk about what

they don't understand. That don't make sense to me. Correct, I agree.

I think that they My personal opinion is that they

were on a path and they said let's go over here,

let's get off the path. Yep, and they died of exposure. Yeah.

I could totally see that, especially if you're out of food,

out of water. Yeah, they for them tripped and hit

your head on a rock or something or a tree

if it was dark and dense, easy to trip. Yeah.

They were proven to be alive until the eighth Yeah,

so that's a full week. With that, I was gonna say,

that's a full week. And like, if they were down

by a river, Okay, there's their water, but they probably

didn't have any way to clean it or purify it.

So that's a whole separate thing to add to it. Correct,

Because if if you're, for example, get a water born

illness and are shooting your brains out, you're going to

real fast. Been there, Mexico. Yeah, Like, you're going to

dehydrate real really fast, and it's going to lead to

exposure quicker. So we're moving to the Medium article. Got it? So.

April twenty five, the it's not that long ago? Correct?

The expanded edition of Still Lost in Panada in Panama

by Christian harding House harding House, Is that a book? Uh,

it's me it's the article. Oh that's the article. Yeah,

Still Lost in Panama is the Article? By Christian and

a Net harding House. Christian harding House and a Net

Nenner was released. Okay, Oh is it a book? It

looks like it's a book. Yeah, it is book. I'm sorry,

you're right. I'm trying to find the authors that I can.

It's literally Harding Hoss, Yes, Christian Harding Hass and a that. Yeah,

that seems they seem like good pronunciations. Well, I want

to read this book now, damn. Okay So. April twenty

twenty five, the expanded edition of Still aust In Panama

was released four hundred and forty pages, exclusive access to

three thousand pages of investigative material, nice analysis of one

hundred and sixty seven digital digital events by iPhone specialist

Jan b and five months of field research in Panama. Wow,

they went to Panama. Mm hmmm. In July of twenty

twenty five, the Heart Still Pounding Podcast published technical analysis

of the phone data. Okay. In September of twenty twenty five,

French French researcher Romaine Coslada returns from I don't know French,

so I can't help you with that. French researcher Romain.

It turns from his eighth expedition to the Panamanian jungle

in December of twenty twenty five. The pictures come together

and it was not an accident. Okay. So this is

all the research I have found. This is not necessarily

my belief, Okay, Okay, So redditors get off my back,

all right. If you call me a stupid cunt on

Reddit for this, I don't know what to tell you

because this is just what I found. Okay, ready, yes, okay.

April eleventh, twenty fourteen, ten fifty one Am, Chris Kremer's's

iPhone powers on without entering the simpin the simpin code,

it runs for sixty five minutes. During that sixty five minutes,

eleven new system files appear on the phone, plus modification

of the files on April six without pin code, without authorization,

without activity. So one thing you did say that correct

what we were talking about earlier, is that it was

it was brick it was an iPhone. Yeah, it was

her phone. Yeah, but like we were saying, like maybe

it was an like bricking phone, it's it's an iPhone, yes, okay.

So jan B who is an iPhone photos specialist, and

that's just how she's referenced. So maybee like B period

or like be like B period Okay, which makes me

believe that maybe this is strong science jam. But that's fine.

I don't want to say much about Jamb. Yeah, so

JAMB iPhone specialist who analyzed the NFI which is the

Netherlands Forensic Institute data. Okay, such changes are only possible

through jail breaking with specialized equipment. This is a professional hacking.

After the girl's disappearance, So she's saying someone hacked into

Chris's iPhone in the middle of the Panamanian jungle. Yes, okay,

mm hmmm mm hmm okay. Sounds like the native tribes

to me, Like, yeah, okay, anyway, I wish you guys

could see my face, right, I know, I was like

sometimes I wish we could record, but I also look

like ass. So do I have my dinosaur Pride shirt up?

I love. I was wondering they are different Pride flags.

They're so cute. Where'd you get it? Give me one

on the on the internet. I'll send it to you.

So April sixth, twenty fourteen. Okay, seventy seven before the hack, Yes,

seventy seven failed attempts to enter incorrect pin code, mostly

before they had a limit and locked you out. Good point,

because now it's what three or five or something. You're

locked out for a while, like for a while, like

an hour at first, and then it keeps getting longer. Yes,

there was no emergency calls during that time, just failed

attempts to unlock. I don't remember if I had an

iPhone in twenty fourteen. I think I did. I can't

remember if you could call the emergency numbers from the

lock screen yet. I don't think you could. I don't

think you could either. I think you had to unlock

the phone. And that was something they added later on.

And people are like, sometimes we can't function when we

needed the emergency call. Yeah, or I did a case

where someone happened upon them and use someone else's phone

to call. Oh yeah that too, yeah, yeah, So experts

in twenty twenty five, This isn't panic from exhausted girls.

This is a brought a brute force attack, third party

hacking attempt, okay. Or if it's Lysan trying to get

into Chris's phone and trying to.

Speaker 2: Whoa whoa whoa to logical No, no, sorry, Jambi, I'm listening,

it goes into the Panama police.

Speaker 1: They then took the phone into evidence, and then the

Netherlands cops didn't have it for X amount of days.

So who knows what they were covering up. I'm not

going to get into that because it's stupid to me. Yeah. So,

next was the bone forensic A tale of two bodies. First,

I kind of liked it, so I kept it. I

like it too. So first it is Chris Kremer's sure

found two fragments rib number ten and half of a

pelvic bone, less than one percent of the skeleton, condition

completely bleached, no tissue, no flesh white as chalk. Nothing

about animal marketings or anything nope. Animals eating off the bones, nope. Interesting.

Not a single scratch, not from rocks, not from animals,

not from the river bed. The bones are completely clean, Okay, gross. Next,

Lisan Frun found left foot in boot with skin and

flesh femur tibula ball of skin two condition early stage

of decomposition with skin with insect larva. Sorry that was gross,

but just like two totally episodes of Bones, they talk

a lot about insect larva when it comes to decomposition.

So then how was this possible if it was an accident? Okay,

So then we go to the camera. The sty card,

come on, it contains one hundred and thirty three photos

after April first. Photo five oh eight was on April first,

at one fifty four pm chrissing the stream, face clearly frightened,

and it was the last shot that was intentionally taken.

Face clearly frightened. Okay, it looks like like are these

photos online? Oh yeah, hold on photos the third one

so like the little rock yeah, oh so like that

she's standing Yeah that she's like standing on herron. Yeah,

that's her clearly frightened. It doesn't look clearly frightened at all. Well,

at least that's my understanding. It's that photo. Like it

looks like she's smiling, correct, Yeah, yeah, that release she's

just like yep, if you're taking another picture of me, yep, yeah,

like yeah, so, and maybe there's a different photo that's

the one that I always thought of. So unless there's

a photo that I'm very clearly missing that I've never seen,

but I've I've known this case since twenty twenty. I've

looked at everything there is to look at. I bet

you have. Based on my quick scroll here, I don't

see a single photo of either of them looking frightened. Yeah,

but again they like they're having a great time. Again,

unless I'm missing something, but so clearly so that's photo

five o eight. She's clearly frightened, and it's the last

daytime shot. Okay, photo five oh nine, Yeah, missing, can't

recover it. That's fascinating photo. Like even tech people can't

recover it. It does look like the one that you

told me about is the last photo. Okay, did you

look up photo five O eight? I just look up

last photo? Okay, I didn't look up five oh Here's

a zoom on her face. She does not look frightened, Okay.

If anything, she looks like, why are you taking another

picture of me? That's kind of what I was thinking

at one point. I was like, what the photos? Ah

for a file? Yeah? Like or like because her hair

is up and it had been down. Yes, so perhaps

she was warm. I don't know. They could have been

lost to and not. They could be at this point.

They could be lost. Yeah, they could be lost. That

doesn't mean that they're panicking. Okay. Sorry, I've derailed this

as ease. Okay, I'm not gonna look at any more photos.

Speaker 3: Okay.

Speaker 1: So photo five oh eight Chris was crossing the stream

face clearly frightened, as she said. And that's the last

daytime shot. Okay. Photo five oh nine missing, cannot be recovered, unrecoverable,

got it? Photo five ten April eighth, one nine am,

first of ninety nine strange night photos in complete darkness. Okay,

So the twenty twenty five technical examination photo was not

deleted manually on camera, but it's unable to be recovered.

Photo five nine five nine. Okay, yep. Sometimes stuff gets corrupted,

especially if a camera like gets dropped or one hundred percent,

especially if there's a week between photos. Anything could have

happened in that week, anything could happen, anything good happened.

So June seventeenth, twenty fourteen deletion date according to file

system timestamp, So two months later, apparently things start to

get get found. I think it's already been taken into

evidence at this point. Is what they're trying to prove

is that the Panamanian people started deleting stiff again, it's

all I think. Accidents happen, but this is this is

the article saying that accidents did not well, this is

not an accident. Okay. Also twenty fourteen technology I don't

really know. I don't remember. But what if, for example,

a camera where you are deleting things on the camera,

it doesn't register as deleted until you plug the camera. No? No, okay,

no sounds good. I'm saying just no, no, okay. April eighth,

twenty fourteen, from one twenty nine am to four ten am,

ninety nine photos rapid sequence three flash in darkness over

a three hour time period with the flash m That

means the flash is going off in the woods? Mm hmm.

What do you think that would do? I would scare

the critters. Yeah, it would scare the critters, That's what

it would do. Yes, that could have been all it was, yes, yeah, yeah,

what did they have with them? They sure didn't have

a flashlight, but what did they have a flash camera?

Maybe they were just trying to see where they were

going or where they were what they were doing. Whoa, whoa.

Maybe it makes sense. Yeah, maybe they're because this is

the the bats where there was bleeding from the temple. Yes,

they were like, let's see if we can see this

and see if it's gotten worse because maybe it was

hurting or Okay, I'm being too watch yeah, stop it,

stop it right now now, dare you done? So? Most

of these photos are of the black sky, some of

the rocks, branches, that kind of stuff. Sure, one shot

as if they were trying to light up the area

around them, right. One shot is of hair which is

presumably Chris, which is accidentally in the frame. It's like

totally just off the top of her head. You can

see this bleeding a little bit.

Speaker 2: Yep.

Speaker 1: Yeah. So June fourteenth, twenty fourteen, a local woman named

Irma found the blue backpack in the serpent on the

Serpent Riverbank. I forgot that that's what was called, which

scares me. Yeah. Yeah. So it was ten weeks in

the jungle April to June pea crainy season in Panama,

daily downpours and ninety to one hundred percent commit humidity.

And in the backpack was a cannon camera which was working,

an iPhone four which was working, and logs were extracted,

a Samson Galaxy S three which was working. Eighty three

dollars in cash, dry, passports and documents intact with no mold, sunglasses,

no scratches, two bras rolled up and dry, and inside

of the backpack totally dry, no rot, no mold, no

decomposition of any kind, no indication that it was ever

wet and correct correct outside sand and damage, scratches all

over it, torn fabric, but of course everything inside was dry.

So the twenty twenty five experts say that ten weeks

in ten weeks during the rainy season, jungle with ninety

percent humidity, river with rocky bottom, electronics should be dead,

documents should be water logged, everything should be moldy. Explanation

backpack was stored in a dry place room bag, not

in a jungle. This was planted evidence on the river

bank to simulate an eccident. It does seem clear to

me that that probably was placed there. It seems very

unlikely that the stuff in there would be perfectly dry

unless someone was wearing it the whole time and left

it there. That day. But even if they were wearing it,

if it rained, she would get wet unless the waterproof,

unless the was waterproofer, unless the waterproof was proofing, unless

the waterproof was proofing. Then I'm going to wait to

tell you my whole thoughts till the very end. I'm

almost and I promise no, you're good. I just have

so many conspiracy theories. Apparently yeap. Eleven years later, in

twenty twenty five, experts and amateurs investigators are still trying

to understand what happened. But the official answer given in

twenty fifteen doesn't protect truth. It protects tourism. It protects

the economy, It protects an order that doesn't need uncomfortable questions.

That's like, that's this whole thing is oh sorry, The

case prosecutor took the case in April of twenty fourteen

and closed it in March of twenty fifteen as an accident.

So the anima in Panama, all of this is to

protect Panomanian tourism is that? Huh yeah? I think so yeah,

Panama's tourism. That's what every slew thought. The Internet that

gets involved with this case says, so okay, after everything

was found, but after everything that was found during twenty

twenty five, these are the three theories that circle the internet. Okay,

Number one kidnapping and murder. Yeah, girls met a third

party on or beyond the trail. They were abducted and murdered, dismembered,

and then chemically body processing and then planted the remains

to simulate an accident that they're saying to explain the bleaching. Okay,

it could also just be sorry, I'm jumping one more time.

If they did get killed somewhere else and their bodies

were planted, it doesn't mean that they were processed. All

that would mean, necessarily is that one body was sitting

in the sun for ten weeks, right and one wasn't. Correct,

That's all that might mean, and so that they were

processed any different. So this is the evidence to support

that sure phone manipulation, which is the jail breaking and hacking.

The bones were bleached with chemicals which was lime and

phosphorus is apparently what they came up with. Could be

different decomposition states of the bodies. The dry backpack after

ten weeks of rain and absence of survival protocols, there

was no maps, videos, or messages. That was the evidence

for the kidnapping and murder. But that's just theory one.

You know, something else to add to that, perhaps, So

let's let's say that they their bodies were clearly decomposed differently,

there is a possibility. Let's look at their personalities again

for a second. It was Chris's body who was bleached, right,

and Lisand's that was naturally decomposed. Yeah, I believe that's correct.

What if Chris fought HM and because she fought back,

they did worse things to her body? Okay, I'll take it. Yeah,

because like, yeah, they could have, Like lime is a

certain kind of soap, Like it's not that like you

use lime to make soap. It's not that difficult to

get lime in hardware stores and stuff. Sure, so they

it does decompose things like it. Yep, they could have.

They could have decomposed her body. They could have tortured

her with lime. Yep. To add to that theory, yeah, yep, Okay.

Theory number two digital manipulation post factum phones hacked after

disappearance to erase evidence Panamanian police or third party professional

hacking with equipment evidence eleven new system files on April

eleventh without pin photo five oh nine deleted without with

external equipment that was unable to be recovered. Yeah, yea yeah.

And then the seventy seven pin hacking attempts on April sixth,

So that was, you know, something bad happened to the girls,

like it could have been an accident, but the government

covered it up. It seems less lightly than the first. Okay,

oh well, I jumped ahead. So thirty three is authority

cover up oh Panama hiding the truth to protect tourism.

That doesn't make any sense to me. Systematic evidence destruction,

test blocking case closed as accident despite facts evidence, refusal

of DNA tests, missing reports when approaching criminal version searching,

dog blocking, and key search dog blocking in key areas

so they won't let their doggoes go certain places, which

shrink is true protect a dog? Yeah that sounds like

either to protect the dogs or it was like private

property and they like weren't allowed to And the last

thing is TV access to Evidence protocol violation, which I

just think that it just didn't hit certain areas of

the news when the Netherlands people thought it should different laws,

Like I don't think that, say, say a Dutch person

died in the US. What are the chances that the

Dutch investigators or police fly into the US and get

full cooperation from the US Like that, that's ridiculous to me,

the like, even if the investigation systems are less advanced,

that doesn't mean it's a cover up. M So I'm

adding a fourth option, which is that it was an accident. Well,

damn girl, yeah, damn Gina. Yeah, I think it was

an accident. I think something Sometimes bad things happen. Yeah,

And this is what I'm Okay, this is my theory.

Stick with me. I think that. And I'm not gonna

remember which one. I think one of them died very early,

the other one sought refuge from a local whatever still

died of natural causes. And then when all of this

gained attention, that person was like, well fuck beans, yeah,

and probably then got rid of all their shit. I

can see that again, Like I just to me, it's

a jungle. Yeah, I mean, it reminds me so much

of the Natalie Holloway of it all. It's like like

that was nefarious and like something yeah, well like and

something bad actually did happen. Yeah, But for so many

years we didn't know, right, for so many years, it

could have something bad happened. And I just think that

I just think that something bad. Yeah. And also fear

is really powerful. M If we're gonna talk about Natalie

Holloway for a minute, I think what a lot of

people feared for a long time was that she had

been trafficked. Yeah. Well I could see that being a

fear here while they were missing for sure, that they

were wrapped in trafficked because they had vanished without a trace.

I mean that clearly didn't happen, right, or if it did,

they were dumped back in the forest, right exactly. That

seems so improbable. Yeah, Like what there's a phrase that

Sherlock Holmes uses in one of the early stories. That's like,

when you eliminate all of the things that are improbable,

you're left with what was probable something like that or impossible,

And when you're left with what was possible? Yeah, Like,

I just think some of these things are so improbable. Yeah,

if you can't get a signal, how are you going

to hack in the forest? Right? And like the photos

everyone or the internet wants to say that you know

they were taking because the girls were being dragged. Okay,

there's no proof of anyone else in those photos. I

bet that there was creatures. Yes, that makes way more

sense to me than I think. Yeah, that they were

trying to ward off something with a flash, which is

all they had. They didn't have a flashlight. I don't

know much. I don't remember anything about a fucking iPhone

four or a Galaxy S three. But like, I don't

know if they had flashlights yet even if they did,

they were trying I don't even know if the cameras

had flashes at that point. I was gonna say, even

if they did ill thing, to use my phone for that,

because I would want to use it for other purposes,

to call to whatever. And again the seventy seven mistaken

pin codes. Yet, yeah, she was probably using her friend's

phone hers died to and continue to try to call it.

Gives more credence to your theory too, that one of

them died before the other, And just based on dynamics

between people I know and how people who are more

spontaneous they tend to be less risk averse. If I

had to guess, I would guess that something bad happened

to Chris first. Yeah, yeah, yeah, because she was just

less less cautious. Yes, and if it was her that

had the bloody temple, perhaps at that point they were stuck,

she was injured, if she was still alive at that point,

and Li San was hearing shit in the forest and

was trying to be like, ah, like we're terrified here. Yeah,

And even if they weren't far away from the trail,

they if you slip and fall, you're fucked. And if

it's dense woods, yea of any kind, you're especially just jungle.

I have liked in the jungle, the trail disappears like that, Oh,

Puerto Rico is all jungle in the middle. I just yeah,

I think you know, they want to say that this

is to protect tourism, and it could be, like I

think that that it could be. That is a possibility,

But also I don't think that something like this is

going to detur tourism. Now. Have people stopped going to

a Ruba we were talking about Natalie Holloway. Have people

stopped vacationing in a Ruba? No? Absolutely not. Yeah, there

was this string of mysterious deaths in the Dominican Republic

when I was living in Puerto Rico. Because it was

a near island to where we were. That was like, people,

we're suspecting it was some kind of poisoning in alcohol

or something like it was. It was weird. As far

as I know, they never figured it out. It was

just like a string of American deaths. Did people stop

vocationing in the dominic Dominican Republic even when they were

told not to? They did not? They do That's not

I just don't think that's enough of a motivation. Now,

even if people in the Netherlands were like, we're not

going to go to Panama for a while because this

weird thing happened to two of our nationals, that's not

gonna stop everybody else from going to Panama, right. I

just think sometimes bad things happen, agreed, Yeah, and it's

it's horrible. It's us And if something nefarious did happen

to them, then I'm sorry, But I just don't think.

I just don't think. Yeah, I I don't think there

was some kind of cover up. I think that's that's

the main thing. I don't think it was hacking, and

I don't think there was a cover up. Right, There

are a lot of bad things that could have happened

to them. I agree with you on that. Okay, maybe

I could even go so far as believing it maybe

wasn't an accident. Sure, I just don't think it was

a cover up. I don't think people are hacking in

twenty fourteen in the fucking jungle. I guess I will

change my opinion. I am open to believing that maybe

something did happen to them, But yes, there's no I

don't believe that there was any kind of cover up

because I just whatever, No, But I truly just think

that they fell or whatever, and one of them died

very early on. Yeah, I could totally see that. I

would guess it was Chris. I would guess it was Christianity, Yeah,

because she would probably be the one that was like,

let's see if we can get out of here. It's

just the whole thing is sad. It is the whole

point that I wanted to tell you this is like

it's true crime adjacent totally because it could be true.

It could be. I just I don't think for growing

off for sure. Final thoughts, uh No, I just don't

think it was a cover up of any kind. Yeah,

you know what, I was so so for an accident,

but Yeah, maybe maybe there was something nefarious, but I

think it started as an accident. Yeah, I think that,

you know, maybe someone stumbled upon and then nefarious stuff happened. Yeah, totally.

Which is like the beginning of every Wrong Turn movie. Yeah,

it's like the beginning of every one of my nightmares.

I get lost somewhere. That's something bad. Yeah, because I

have a terrible sense subtraction. Yeah, me too. All right, Okay,

I ready to get into sources. I am okay sources

for this week. I read an article of all That's

interesting called inside the Final Days of Chris Kremers and

Lisa and Frun and the Eerie photos they left behind

by Katie Serena. I read an article in Medium, I

read an article in knocks Pages, and of course I

went on the Wikipedia because Wikipedia never has lied to

me personally. Wikipedia is always right. Of course. A full

list of my sources will be in my show notes.

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