The Murder of Robert Scwartz

This week Megan and Lauren discuss the murder of Robert Schwartz.Sources: 

• Snapped: Clara Schwartz S9E3
• Murderpedia: Clara Schwartz
• FindLaw: Schwartz v. Commonwealth
• Wikipedia: The Murder of Robert Schwartz

Speaker 1: Hi Worriers, Welcome to Aren't You Worried? I'm your host,

Lauren Perry, and joining me this week is my best

friend Megan. Megan, Welcome back to Aren't You Worried? It's me,

it's you. So last week we celebrated one year of

Aren't You Worried?

Speaker 2: Yes we did.

Speaker 1: This week is my fiftieth episode of Aren't You Worried?

So you're here for back to back, gosh, I am

so honored. I'm so happy you're here. This wasn't at

all intentional or planned, don't yeah, no, no.

Speaker 2: We don't talk about it.

Speaker 1: No, I just walked right in the door. Absolutely, And

you're not also going to be back for one hundred

and one one, So that's fine. That's fine. So last

well not even last time. Recently, you and I chatted.

One of our favorite artists just came out with a

new album, and I've been kind of dying to pick

your brain about your favorite songs on the new Evanescence album.

Speaker 3: Well, let me tell you do, because I have so

you listen to it.

Speaker 1: I have it on my Spotify. So I've only taken

one song off that I don't like, and I think

it's just because it's a little triggering for me. Yeah,

we'll get there.

Speaker 3: I'd have to say probably my favorite would be About Us.

Speaker 1: Yep.

Speaker 2: That one's just a banger.

Speaker 3: It's just like a good pump up and a good

just like reminder to just be a good fucking person,

essentially because literally they don't they don't.

Speaker 2: Give a fuck about us, No, not at all.

Speaker 3: Sanctuary is obviously a good one, and it's so good

it's the title of the album.

Speaker 1: Yep.

Speaker 3: But I really liked I like all of them a lot.

Speaker 2: I'm curious, what's the one if you don't mind me

asking calm down.

Speaker 1: Calm down, only because I don't like being told to

calm down down. Yeah. So the first time I was like,

I'm just being ridiculous. I'm being very parasocial right now.

And the second time I was like, I understand what

she's saying.

Speaker 2: And I don't want to hear them.

Speaker 1: And then the third time I was like, I might

just like do this listen to less and now it's

no longer on my thing. So I was like, apparently,

I accidentally, which is fun.

Speaker 2: I really like the vibe of Forever Without You.

Speaker 3: It's such like a it's kind of like to me,

it's a throwback to two songs from the Fallen album.

Speaker 2: It's like.

Speaker 3: It has the my Immortal vibe to it, but it's

like a second coming of bring Me to Life, but

it's like in a completely different.

Speaker 2: Vibe of bring Me to Life. And I think that

that was amazing.

Speaker 1: Yeah, when you texted me about it and said that

it was like not like it's sister album but like

in the second chapter or whatever, I was like, am

I ready to be? And I was not ready? And

now when it comes on in my car, I'm just.

Speaker 2: Like, yeah, I have not stopped jamming to it. I

in love with it, and.

Speaker 3: Not enough people around me I want to talk about it,

and it's like all I want to talk.

Speaker 1: About, you know what. I get that all the time,

but not so much well sometimes with music. Right now,

I'm really going through the hockey TV show thing. I

have a lot of people talk to about heat a

rivalry with, and like no one to talk with off

campus with. So I get it.

Speaker 2: I unfortunately have.

Speaker 1: On my list.

Speaker 2: I just haven't gotten to it.

Speaker 1: I mean, in all fairness, you can watch it in

a day, but then you have to like then you're

wasting seven.

Speaker 2: Hours to ever watch Boots on Netflix? I did not

you'd like that one.

Speaker 1: Okay, it's is it is it about hockey because it's

gay and military, so.

Speaker 2: It's it's it's good, you'll like it.

Speaker 1: Okay, well, okay, all right, all right, I'll watch something else.

Speaker 2: And if you don't like it, sorry, I told you

you'd like it.

Speaker 3: Have you ever gotten high and watched a horror movie

or we did this?

Speaker 1: You did do that?

Speaker 3: Or like even just not even horror, but more so

just like.

Speaker 2: A scary movie.

Speaker 3: Example, like what are some actually scary movies? So something

like Insidious? Okay, I'm not saying Insidious is necessarily scary

in my perspective, but.

Speaker 1: First one is pretty scary.

Speaker 3: So for the the reason I say that is because

Insidious to me is a lot like Poultergeist. If you've

seen Poultergeist, you understand what's happening in like the kind

of the same. So like I picked up on that vibe.

Speaker 2: So I kind of knew what was coming.

Speaker 3: Sure, but getting high and watching like paranormal. Paranormal is

more scary to me than say, terrifier.

Speaker 2: Sure, Terrifier is just like it's.

Speaker 1: Just it's torture porn.

Speaker 3: Yes, and it's more scary, or it's more scary to

me than say.

Speaker 2: Saw Sure.

Speaker 3: Yeah, so paranormal if that's like you're you can't watch

paranormal things get high and then it's just like it's

just kind of more humorous to sit back.

Speaker 2: And watch it all happening.

Speaker 3: It's like, that's kind of you're sitting there like that's

a bummer, someone's gonna get you.

Speaker 2: Look out over there, that's a weird face. Like it's

just kind of makes it a little easier to watch.

Speaker 1: So it was funny. We were just kinda talking about

this before we started recording, so I'll tell it now.

You and I watched Terrifier years ago, and it was

like the first time you and I had ever gotten

high together, and possibly the last time we got high together.

Probably it wasn't really it's not really my thing, but

that's fine. And then I remember when you and I

got drunk we went out to the bars and I

wanted to watch Terrifier too, and you and I could

not handle it.

Speaker 2: Like we're like, no, so there it is case in point.

Speaker 1: Yes, We're like, this isn't this isn't what we thought

if you think you can't do it.

Speaker 2: You just need to be a little high sure, because.

Speaker 1: I remember watching Terrifier and being like, well that stinks.

Speaker 3: Yeah, but I do feel like they got progressively worse.

They did knew that they could, they found an audience.

Speaker 1: Yeah, and I feel.

Speaker 2: Like they just got like.

Speaker 3: Terrifier had kind of a story behind it. Everything after

that was literally just like shock and awe.

Speaker 1: I feel like, yeah, like, yes, I agree that the

first one has kind of a story. I think by

the third one. I listened to a movie recap podcast

where she goes through it. I don't think they're for me.

I don't.

Speaker 2: I do like to have like a plot. Yeah, And

that's why I say, like saw it.

Speaker 3: It is like yes, if you just watch like one

of them, gruesome, Yeah, but there is a whole story

being told from one to six.

Speaker 1: Yes, I don't know anything after that.

Speaker 2: I only know one to six. I haven't watched any

like what Jigsaw's return.

Speaker 1: Or I've seen them all but like one time.

Speaker 3: Yeah, but there is there's something in like the fifth

movie and or the sixth movie. Maybe it's last so

that ties everything together. And it's yes, you don't know

that unless you've watched all of them. There is some

sort of plot twist in there that is related to

the previous and that's why I love Saw.

Speaker 1: Yes, I agree, I think that it is a franchise

that but like once that happened, it should have been

done when they started bringing in the detective spoiler, I

guess for song, when they started bringing in the detective

to be Jigsaw, and Jigsaw has been dead for two

or three movies. At this point you lost me. Yep,

you've lost and then they and I hate when movies

do this. I hate when anything does this. Don't give

me two actors that look enough alike. It drives me insane.

Did you watch American horror story The Carnival One?

Speaker 2: Yes?

Speaker 3: Okay, yep, I've seen most of them.

Speaker 2: I haven't seen all of them.

Speaker 1: There are five characters, I believe in The Carnival one.

They are all dark haired, dark eyebrows, dark eyes. Five

different characters. What are we talking about right now? And

when you see them not in the show, they look

enough like differently.

Speaker 2: Were they all playing one character?

Speaker 1: No, they're all playing playing five different characters. What is

this four? It's freak shows.

Speaker 2: Freak shows.

Speaker 1: What it's called Let's see if I can pick them up.

So it's Finn Woodrock, who plays Dandy, so he's the clown.

Mm hmm. There's let's see if I can this man

Us Bentley and then Matt Boehmer. Was there only three

of them? Doesn't matter, there's still too many.

Speaker 2: That's still too many.

Speaker 1: Okay, so it's three they're all. Do you know who

Finn Rock is?

Speaker 2: Do you have pictures?

Speaker 1: I do?

Speaker 2: I can come look over there.

Speaker 1: Okay, So this is Finn, he plays Dandy.

Speaker 2: He's in a few of the American horror stories. That's Finn.

Speaker 1: This is Matt Bohmer. That's Finn when and then Wes Bentley.

They just look too much. It's the dark hair whatever.

You can't put them in. You can't. Just don't do that.

Speaker 2: Please don't do that. I also get very confused or

like I don't.

Speaker 1: Pay attention enough.

Speaker 3: I don't pay attention enough to remember the small details.

There's supposed to be different characters.

Speaker 1: Yep. So anyways, that's just me bitching about nothing. Are

you ready to get into today's episodes? Shout out to

my main source for this week? I watch an episode

of Snapped. You know me, I love snapped. Robert Schwartz

was a nationally renowned scientist in the field of biometrics

and DNA research. In nineteen ninety two, he was a

founding member of the Virginia Biotechnology Association. He was the

father of three children, Catherine, Michelle, Jesse, and Clara Jane.

On December eighth, two thousand and one, Robert Schwartz was murdered.

It was December tenth, two thousand and one, and Robert

Schwartz hadn't shown up for work. Bob, as he was

known to his coworkers, was extremely punctual, and missing work

was of course out of character for him. Bob was

a widower. He had lost his wife a few years

earlier after a long battle with cancer, and now his

three children were grown or away at college, and so

he lived alone in a historic log and stone farm

house in Leesburg, Virginia. Bob's coworkers became more concerned when

an important meeting had started and Bob had still not

shown up for work. I don't know if he was

leading the meeting or was just like supposed to be

in like be there, But all of a sudden they're like, Okay,

maybe he's just running a little late. He lives kind of.

Speaker 2: In a rural u He lives out in East Jesus. Apparently, Yeah,

he lives in a rural area.

Speaker 1: Maybe something had happened, but by the time this meeting

had started, he still hadn't showed up. Everyone's like alarms

were going off, so calls to Bob's home continued to

go unanswered. So one of Bob's colleagues called a friend

of Bob's and asked this friend if he could go

to Bob's place and check on him. This friend that

the colleague knew was working out of town at the time,

but this friend knew and had contact information for one

of Bob's neighbors. Kind of convoluted, but basically someone got

to Bob's neighbor. So this friend that was working out

of town called Bob's neighbor and said, hey, no one

can get a hold of Bob. Would you mind going

in and checking on him? And the neighbor said absolutely,

I'll go over there right now and I'll report back.

So this area of Leesburg, Virginia was pretty rural, and

the Schwartz home itself sat kind of situated on top

of like a little mountain basically first it did yep,

So it took a little bit of time for the

neighbor to get to Bob's house because even though they

were neighbors, it was still a couple miles away. It

had rained over the weekend, so the neighbor had a

little bit of trouble getting their vehicle up the winding

road that led to the Schwartz home. At one point,

the neighbor had to put their vehicle in four wheel

drive just to make sure they didn't get stuck going

up this driveway.

Speaker 3: I mean love when I get to put my vehicle

in four world, let's go. Not that makes me feel

more like a man.

Speaker 1: I would love that kind of seclusion. But stuff like this.

Speaker 2: Freaks me out. Yeah no, I'm a city girl.

Speaker 3: Yeah, oh well, I grew up out in the country,

but at this point, like maybe not like out where

I grew up, but put me on like the outskirts

of the town.

Speaker 1: Yeah, like right at the brim. Yeah, I really need

a grocery store within we'll say seven minutes, and I

want a maul of some kind within like thirty to

thirty five.

Speaker 3: The quick trip that is a mile away from me

is perfect that I could not go without my quick trip.

Speaker 1: Yeah, my high ve I currently can't get to because

of the construction near my house, So it now taking

twelve minutes to get to Hive when it used to

take me to has.

Speaker 2: Been done so that would be so frustrating.

Speaker 1: I haven't seen my local high V gas station worker

in months. I bet they think I'm dead. Actually, I'm sure.

I'm sure they don't. Have not thought about it.

Speaker 2: Else they think about you, I really do.

Speaker 1: Orn hasn't came in and gotten her coffee in months.

Speaker 2: She's okay. Does she think of me too?

Speaker 1: I do?

Speaker 2: Yes, she does, I do.

Speaker 1: I will talk about you on my podcast. I miss

you so much, sir. Anyways, so four wheel drive you

feel manly having to do it? Having to.

Speaker 3: I feel like my jeep just like it grows, it

gets bigger when I put it in four wheel drive,

like I am sitting so far above.

Speaker 2: The ground at that point.

Speaker 1: I love that for you. Do you ever have to

use four wheel drive not involving snow? Like?

Speaker 2: Do you know? I don't get the chance to do that.

Speaker 1: That's okay, you can take mine and go wherever you

want with it.

Speaker 2: You're jeeper your car, you know, what.

Speaker 1: You can take the Nissan if you want, I meant

the Wrangler, but sure so. Once the neighbor arrived at

the Schwartz home, he saw that Bob's car was still

parked in the driveway, which he knew was not a

great sign. The neighbor got out of the car and

walked around the house, kind of knocking on doors and

windows to see if any of.

Speaker 2: Them were unlocked.

Speaker 1: He finally came to the side door, which was pulled

closed but not latched, so the neighbor was able to

enter the home through that door. The neighbor kind of

pushed the door open and went inside, and they were

greeted with a very grisly scene. There on the floor

lay Bob Schwartz. He was cold to the touch and

clearly dead. He'd been brutally murdered. There were more than

thirty stab wounds to his body, and there was blood everywhere.

The neighbor, I don't know why I n named before

this name was Sam Sam.

Speaker 2: Rut such a nice name. I feel like you hear

the name Sam and you're like.

Speaker 3: That's such what a soft name? I know, but like

probably a really strong guy. Yeah, yeah, except for that one.

Sam that I know that you don't know.

Speaker 1: Fuck him, fuck him, fuck him. The neighbor, whose name

was Sam, rushed back to their vehicle and immediately called

nine one one. After Sam hung up the phone with

nine one one, he contacted Bob's colleagues and friends to

tell them what they what he had walked in on.

When police arrived to the scene, they pretty quickly determined

that Bob had been dead for a couple of days.

They placed his time of death right around dinner time

on December eighth, two thousand and one, which was a Saturday.

It was clear that Bob had been killed in the

middle of his evening routine. He had the table set

for dinner. The food was all made, but none of

it had been eaten. Beyond that, through the crime scene yielded.

Beyond that, the crime scene yielded few clues. There were

no fingerprints, no sign of forced entry, and nothing was

missing from the home. He's a pretty well I mean,

he's not rich by any means, but they live comfortably.

You'd think if it was a robbery, something would be gone,

but that didn't seem to be the case. So the

next step was for the authorities to make the death

notification to all three of Robert's children. Investigators made the

one hundred mile trip drive to James Madison University, where

Bob's daughters, Clara, Jane and Catherine Michelle were enrolled. So

they're named like first and last name like or first

and middle names. The older sister, Catherine, she goes by

Michelle like. I saw that her name was Catherine Michelle,

but in every article she's named as Michelle, so it

will be Clara and Michelle are his daughters. And then

their son Jesse, who I believe was the oldest child,

did not go to James Madison University. He had already

graduated from somewhere else. They contacted him as well, but

he's not involved in this story, so I'd mentioned him

very little. Okay. Death notifications are never easy in any situation,

but they had only lost their mother a few years earlier,

and they were still very young. Clara was twenty years

old and Michelle was twenty two years old. They had

lost their They had lost their mother about six years ago,

and now they were having to be told that their

father had been brutally murdered. Michelle was devastated by this news.

She collapsed and started crying, but Clara had a different reaction.

She was calm and unemotional, and she only had a

simple question. How Clara's reaction was alarming enough to police

that they thought it warranted a little bit of a

maybe not an investigation, but maybe we'll just kind of

see what Clara is all about. So they began looking

into Clara's background. At this point, they basically had nothing

else to go on, so they said, I guess we'll

start here. Clara had been fourteen when her mother had

passed away, and Bob knew that losing her mother at

that age would be really hard for her, so he

wanted to get her something that was going to be meaningful.

Speaker 2: To her, so he bought her a horse.

Speaker 1: He thought this would be a kind of therapeutic outlet,

and honestly it was. For the first couple of years.

Clara loved her horse. She wrote it, Okay, this sounds magical.

She wrote it all over their property, like they had

a home, like a property for a horse.

Speaker 2: Oh, I love that. I know I've always wanted a horse.

I love them.

Speaker 3: Really, they heard, just we co owned a horse my

mom and I did you for a while, when not

a while it didn't last very long, for a couple

of years, I'd say, when I was in middle school,

high school, probably high school.

Speaker 2: They're expensive.

Speaker 3: That's why the original owner just couldn't maintain it all

by herself anymore. So she must have put out like

an ad for like.

Speaker 1: Wants to help.

Speaker 2: Yeah, her name was Grace. She was a Tennessee walker, so.

Speaker 3: She was really big, and it is it's a lot

of work, even like even for just the two of

us were like, well, technically it was three of us.

Speaker 2: It was original owner, my mom and I. But they're beautiful.

They are. If I had the space and I could

be just like retired, sure, but like still kind of young.

You don't think I could do it as you know,

I won't have it tired tomorrow.

Speaker 1: You get a horse.

Speaker 2: I'd get a horse, for sure.

Speaker 1: If you could retire tomorrow, live comfortably for the rest

of your life, you'd get a horse. Yes, yep, there

it is. So she was able to ride the horse

around her property, and she took great care of her horse,

but as she got older, her interests began to shift.

The snapped episode that I watched said that due to

the loss of her mother at such a formative age.

That's when that's why things started to shift. But I'm

going to argue that she was just fourteen, fifteen, and sixteen,

and that's why her interest started to shift because I'm

pretty sure I had like four different lives in that

two years. Fourteen to sixteen is a very weird time.

Speaker 3: Its time, it's a very impressionable time.

Speaker 2: It's a very much like.

Speaker 3: You're looking for acceptance, like in everything, yeah, like with

your family, with your friends, with boys, like even academically,

like sports wise.

Speaker 2: There is so much pressure in that time.

Speaker 1: Yes, so her interests really changed. She started I've seen

in All Black and listening to Marilyn Manson barf.

Speaker 2: I was hoping you would say Evan Essence.

Speaker 1: But now two thousand and one, I don't know. That

would have been in the nineties because this is when

she was probably not created.

Speaker 3: I feel I feel like their first album came out

like early two thousands.

Speaker 1: That's what was gonna be my guest. I wish it

was Evan Essence, but no.

Speaker 2: Marilyn Manson but at that time he was.

Speaker 1: Like, this was before all of the allegations.

Speaker 3: Yeah, and he was like, if you really want to

go against the grain.

Speaker 2: Oh yeah.

Speaker 1: Yeah, so along with that, the dressing and all black

and listening to I was gonna say Eminem Marilyn Manson,

she got really into fantasy role playing games. She liked

Dune and Dragons, and she went to a lot of

Renaissance festivals. I also picked this because it has little

to do with Dungeons and dragons, but I did pick

it out.

Speaker 3: There, Okay, very little, but I do like them dungeons

and dragons.

Speaker 1: So you know, besides dungeons, Dungeon, besides Dungeons and dragons,

do you know much about other role fantasy games.

Speaker 3: No, I've even just I barely know anything about Dungeons

and Dragons, but you like it for a really long time. Yeah,

But it's one of those things where it's like I'm

just constantly learning.

Speaker 2: So we just ended a campaign.

Speaker 3: Yeah, like one of my very first like long campaigns.

I've done smaller ones with Peter and just like almost

like mini games. Shout out Peter, Shout out to Peter.

But we just ended a like one and a half

two year campaign.

Speaker 1: Geez.

Speaker 3: It was hard when you have like so many to

six people like getting on a schedule. So and like

we don't try to meet during the summer. So we

ended that a couple months ago, and I learned a

lot from that. Now now I'm like finally able to

fully invest in this new one that we started because

I know what I'm like, I know what a little

bit more what I'm supposed to be looking for, and

you know, I actually finally created a character with a backstory.

Speaker 2: Oh yes, and I just don't like go off of

what Peter tells me to do. Sure, yeah, So it's

one of those things. It's fun.

Speaker 3: Yeah, it's just you have an imagination.

Speaker 2: You can play Dungeons and Dragon perfect.

Speaker 1: So besides the wearing the black and the metal music

and the dungeons and dragons, that's where your guys a

similarity stop.

Speaker 2: Okay, just so you know.

Speaker 1: Okay, So Clara was really into fantasy role playing games

that she actually invented a game of her own called Underworld.

Clara was the overlord of the Underworld. She called herself

the Priestess of High Chaos. The game involved vampires, orcs

and assassins, and they spent a lot of time immersed

in this fantasy world. As they looked into this, more

detectives uncovered that Clara had a tight knit group of

friends that she engaged in this fantasy gameplay with and

went to Renfest with. Basically they did everything together at

this point. These friends were nineteen year old Katie Inglis,

twenty one year old Mike full and eighteen year old

Kyle Hulbert. When they came up with those names, the

investigators were like, we think we've heard these names before.

So while they were looking into Clara's background, they had

also talked to Robert's neighbors to see if any of

them had seen or heard anything in the day surrounding

December eighth, And it turns out the night of December eighth,

the night Robert was murdered, one of the neighbors remembered

something unusual. So, like I mentioned, this was a His

house was in a very rural area, miles between homes,

but that Saturday night it had been raining and the

and the neighbor got a knock on his door. He

opened the door and there was a young man standing

there and the man said, Hi, my car got stuck

in the mud. Can I please use your phone to

call a tow truck? And the neighbor told the police

that the guy was very polite. So the neighbor said, absolutely,

come on in and use my phone. It's two thousand

and one, there's no cell phone back and shaking her head.

Now this this guy introduced himself as Kyle Hulbert, and

he accepted a cup of hot tea because he wanted

to get out of the rain. So Kyle used the phone.

Speaker 2: Sit back in your car and I will call you

a tot.

Speaker 1: True. So Kyle used the phone to call the tow

truck and waited there until the tow truck arrived. When

the tow truck came, they found the car and it

was definitely stuck in the mud. But there was also

two other people in the car. Katie Inklis and Mike

full were just in the car waiting. I don't like

it's not weird. I just think it's weird. Why would

you not all get out? You're gonna sit in a

stuck vehicle when it's pouring rain.

Speaker 3: Well, I would be like, okay, maybe I will go

talk to this guy and see if I can use

the phone call the tow truck.

Speaker 2: But then I'm gonna come back to you guys like I.

Speaker 1: Yes, if he was in his line, my friend, that's why, Like,

it's not there, it's not important. But I was like,

this is weird. You made it seem like you were alone.

And then the tow truck drivers like, there's people, more people,

What the fuck is going on? So the tow truck

driver arrived and has to physically tow the vehicle. I

assume it had to go on a flat bed because

of the mud. So I only say this because the

vehicle was towed to a tow lot to leave overnight.

They couldn't drive it after it was taken out of

the mud. So the driver gives the three a ride

and sorry, the driver gives the three a ride to

the lot since the vehicle was spending the night. The

tow truck driver got the contact information for all three

of these people, for Katie, Mike, and Kyle. They gave

their full names and addresses to this tow truck driver.

So the police talked to the neighbor. The neighbor gives

them the number of the tow truck company. The police

called the tow truck company and the tow truck driver

was like, yeah, I actually have all of their information

right here, because why would they not give me their information?

So the police tracked down Katie and Mike, who were

in a relationship and living together. The police show up

to their house and they asked them to come down

to the police station, and Katie Mike were like, absolutely,

nothing weird going on here, will come down. So they

went down to the station and fully cooperated with the police. So,

the day after Robert Schwartz's body was found, these two

young adults gave a full rundown of the night's events.

They told the police that, yeah, they were at Bob

Schwartz's house that night, here's what happened. They're great friends

with Clara Schwartz. Kyle was newer to the group, but

they met him at a Renaissance festival. He had met

Clara first and she introduced him to them. He was

an assassin. On the night of December eighth, they picked

up Kyle and he said that he had a job

to do and he just needed a ride. He asked

Katie and Mike to take them to Bob's house, and

they said they didn't really know what his intentions were

that evening, but I guess looking back on it, they

knew what Kyle was up to that night.

Speaker 3: They weren't going to show up to like play their game,

oh per se, well not no, yeah, quote unquote play

the game.

Speaker 1: Yeah, but yeah mm yeah, so.

Speaker 2: That they were just having a friendly little get together.

Speaker 1: Not well no, so you know, looking back on it,

they didn't know what Kyle was going to do. But

you know, maybe they actually did know what Kyle was

going to do. But you see, Clara was having major problems.

Speaker 2: With her father.

Speaker 1: He was really abusive towards her, which from what I

could tell, not true. But Clara went into great lengths

to tell her friends these stories about how her dad

was poisoning her and that she wanted him dead. And

since Kyle was an assassin in the underworld, she had

tasked him with saving her and protecting her from her dad.

So I'd like to talk to you a little bit

about Kyle Halbert for a little bit. Kyle had been

a ward of the state since he was six years old.

This is just kind of an explanation or non explicient

an example of how the United States deals with mental

health issues. Kyle was diagnosed with schizophrenia when he was

very young. He had been in and out of institutions

for most of his life. He had become a ward

of the state because his mother left and his father

didn't think he could take care of him. But when

Kyle turned eighteen, he was no longer a ward of

the state, so he was simply left to fend for

himself on his own. All the help he had been

getting from six to eighteen was gone. He had no resources,

he had no family to speak of. But he was eighteen,

you go. So oh. He did have like one friend

that he lived on their couch for like a week

or two, but that was basically it. And in this time,

once Kyle turned eighteen, he met Clara pretty quickly after,

and he latched onto her and her friends as a

form of family. And Clara had told him these stories

about how her dad wanted her dead, and how her

dad didn't understand her life, and how her dad was

so terrible to her and she didn't get good enough

grades for his standards. She was always getting into trouble and.

Speaker 2: He was poisoning her.

Speaker 1: She you know, couldn't prove that her dad was poisoning her,

but she could taste it.

Speaker 2: Yep.

Speaker 1: She thought that her dad would buy her like spoiled

meat and feed that to her to try and kill her.

That was a way that she thought her dad was

poisoning her.

Speaker 2: I would never do it like that.

Speaker 1: Spoil meat, Well, was it spoiled? Meter didn't taste spoiled

because he'd put poison in it. I don't really know

who knows, can't prove any of it, but that was

Clara was pretty sure.

Speaker 2: Well, I guess as long as Claire is sure, pretty sure?

Pretty sure? Yeah, yeah, So.

Speaker 1: On this particular night, This is what Katie and Mike

tell the investigators. This is what they tell the investigators.

They said that that night they picked him up and

he was armed with a sword. Katie and Mike drove

Kyle to Bob Schwartz's home, and they watched him walk

up to the home. They said that they weren't totally

sure at what point the fantasy stopped and reality began

with Kyle, but they saw him go into the house,

and later he emerged from the house with his sword. Still,

where did he get his sword? If you're an assassin

in a role playing game, wouldn't you get a sword?

Speaker 2: Yeah? But where?

Speaker 1: I don't know, the gun store, they said.

Speaker 2: I know, Okay, they've never been to the gun store.

Speaker 1: I guess at those kind of Okay, I've never been,

so I guess I didn't know I could just go

to the store and buy myself a sword. I mean,

there are swords in this house. But yeah. So they

watched him go into the house and then a little

bit later he came back out with his sword. I'm

too some brief.

Speaker 2: How did he have money to buy the sword? I

think it was a gift. Okay, I'm done.

Speaker 1: No, I think it was to let it go. No, No,

I think it was a gift. I said that question.

But I'm pretty sure it was a gift.

Speaker 2: Okay.

Speaker 1: So it was very clear to the investigators that Katie

and Mike didn't really have a real strong grasp on

how serious the situation was, because Mike, in his initial

interview with the police called this a big oopsies.

Speaker 2: Yep, yep, that's a big oopsie. Yeah.

Speaker 1: At first, Katie and Mike told both told the investigators

that they weren't really sure what Kyle was going to

do that night. They knew that they were taking him

there to play the role of assassin in their fantasy game,

but that they didn't really believe that he would take

it as far as actually killing Bob Schwartz. I'm gonna

pause because again, I don't know jack about fantasy games,

but I'm assuming you don't show up to D and

D with swords or whatever you play with it.

Speaker 2: So far, I've not seen any swords.

Speaker 1: Oh, no swords in D and D.

Speaker 3: Nope, I've seen a cape.

Speaker 2: I've not seen a sword.

Speaker 1: Maybe that's just involved Indians.

Speaker 3: Swords are involved Indians, but none of your people in

your campaign have shown up with the sword. We don't

bring swords. We just talk about our characters and their swords.

Speaker 2: That that's it.

Speaker 3: I've actually and maybe that's just strictly our our campaign.

Maybe we just don't bring weapons. It's not listed on

the door, no weapons allowed. But we just have this agreeance,

I think, an unspoken one and unspoken agreeance, that we're

not gonna bring weapons. Sure, nor would we plan on

using them. But no swords are involved in the story.

Speaker 1: Sure, but not in the real way.

Speaker 2: Not in the real way.

Speaker 1: Okay, So after this kind of I don't even know

if this is a confession, because I don't know if

they realize what they're saying. Not saying Katie and Mike

are dumb. I'm just saying I don't think they actually

grasped the immensity of the situation. I think they were

just talking to talk, and then all of a sudden

they're like, oh, I said it out loud. Now I

hear what I'm saying. Again. I'm not calling them stupid,

just that's just kind of how it was presented as

they were like.

Speaker 3: They probably didn't think that it was a real situation. Yeah,

they were definitely thinking it's just part of the game. Right,

and then and after the matter, it come hindsight twenty

twenty And.

Speaker 1: To my knowledge, they didn't know that Bob was dead.

They know that Kyle went into his home with a

knife and came out with a knife or a sword.

I should sun a knife, it's a sword, But.

Speaker 3: I don't know if they knew that that was his

actual intention.

Speaker 1: Correct, Yeah, but that doesn't matter if you knew or

didn't know. They were rested at that point. Yeah, so

now they needed to track down Kyle. By this point,

it had been a couple of days and Kyle had

left Virginia and had gone to Maryland. And it took

a couple of days to get everyone in the loop.

Police station wise, we're in Leesburg, Virginia. We got to

get in touch with people in Maryland, and we got

to figure out exactly where he is in Maryland. So

it does take a couple of days, but they do

track him down and so they I don't know if

they pull him over anyways, they track him down and

they bring him into a Maryland police department. Once he

was in the police station, Kyle confessed immediately. Kyle said

that he went to Bob Schwartz's that night. He was

dressed in all black, he had gloves on, and he

had a black hair covering so that there would be

no sign that he was ever in the home. He

said he knocked on the door and he had met

Robert a couple of times previously, so Robert had led

him into the home. He said that he walked into

the kitchen and when they were in the home, Robert

had his back towards him, and Kyle pulled the sword

out from the back of his trench coat and started

stabbing him repeatedly. And then he told the police that

he had to kill Robert, and they asked him what

he meant by that, and Kyle said, I had to

do it to save my friend. I haven't known Clara

for very long At this point, I think they had

known each other for under six months. But he told

the police that he thought of Clara as his sister

and they were family, and that he loved her, and

he knew that she had been suffering at the hands

of her father. He then went on to tell them

all the stuff that Clara had told him about how

her father had poisoned her. Clara confided in Kyle and

told him that she had Clara confided in Kyle and

told him that she had an upcoming vacation to the

Virgin Islands over Christmas with her dad. Clara then told

him that she knew if she went on this trip

with her father, she would not come back alive. She

knew her father was going to murder her on this trip,

so Kyle had no choice. He had to save his

friend and the girl he loved like a sister. So

obviously this is a confession, and Kyle was arrested and

charged with the murder of Robert Schwartz, as were Katie

and Mike. At that point, investigators have this wild story

that's kind of tangled in this fantasy world, and they

didn't really know how much involvement Clara had had in

this murder. Had she ordered Kyle to kill her father?

Was she the ringleader of this murder for hire? Or

was this simply Kyle taking fantasy role playing too far?

So the police executed a search warrant on Katie and

Mike's house. They found the They found the sword, and.

Speaker 2: It catched myself saying sword all the.

Speaker 1: Time, thank you. I was like not bad. So they

found the sword at Katie and Mike's and it had

been freshly cleaned. When the police pulled it out of

the sheath, it was still wet. So now they're trying

to link up with Clara to do a formal interview,

but she was kind of hard to get into touch with.

They didn't really have the time to speak to them,

you know, like, I know my dad was murdered, but

like I'm pusyre, so like I just have a lot

going on. But finally, ten days after her father's body

was found, she was able to sit down with the

police for her first formal interview. That just happened to

be on the same day as her father's funeral. But

like the snapped episode is like they did it the

Sande's her father's funeral. No, she was dogging them. They

showed up at her dad, you know, they take her in.

Speaker 3: Quit are probably a pretty good inkling that she would

show up there.

Speaker 1: Yeah, and if she's like, oh my god, it is

so hard to get ahold of which I understand. Planning

an unexpected funeral for your father who was murdered would

be very tough if you didn't know that you would

be planning a funeral for your father's murder.

Speaker 2: Yeah, yep, that part.

Speaker 1: In that investigation. They talked to Clara for about five hours,

and she was very cold and unemotional towards the police.

She told them that she had a very strayed relationship

with her father. She just couldn't live up to his expectations.

He wanted her to be like her older sister, Michelle.

Michelle was beautiful and popular and did well in school,

and she also had a ton of friends. But Clara

didn't want to be like her sister. She specifically said,

I don't want to be normal. Normal is boring. During

that five hour interview, they kind of circled around some

claims that her father was abusive and Clara did not make.

And Clara did not make the same claims that she

had made to her friends. She said that he was

really hard on her about her grades. If she had

brought home sees, they might as well have been f's

And that's just kind of how their dynamic was in

the home. He wanted her to do well in school,

but she didn't really, she just was in good school,

and when she wouldn't perform, he'd hit her, and before

you know it, he'd come apologizing, and you know, like

it would be fine. They were in this typical cycle

of abuse, is what she was telling the investigators. Oh,

and the investigator asked her, like, okay, so when he

would come back and apologize, did that make your relationship better?

And Clara just did not answer that question. After the

five interrogation, they don't think that they have enough to

connect her to her father's murder. I'm assuming because she

was pretty unresponsive that they were like, we think there's

enough there, but officially there's not. So Unfortunately they have

to let her go and they would continue to investigate

her for another two months. In February of twenty of

two thousand and two, they finally executed a search warrant

on her dorm room. Specifically, they wanted access to her

computer to check her IM logs. I believe this came

from further conversations with her friends, but they wanted to

go through her computer and check her instant messenger. After

doing like the bare minimum research, it turns out that

they didn't really have to do much digging into her

IM or her instant message. In her her instant messages.

I was gonna say instant messenger messages, No, it's her

instant message. It turns out she saved them all so

like they didn't have to do any kind of looking

into deleted stuff. She had them all saved on a drive. Yeah.

Speaker 3: Love, when your job is easy, I might actually get

lunch today.

Speaker 1: So they started looking through those and they found evidence

of her talking with Kyle about murdering her father. It

wasn't like, please kill my dad. They did use code words.

They would call things in They would call things in

the underworld by different names they would call if you're

going to kill someone, they would call it tayan, so

used in a sentence it would say if I was

to tay him, would you be mad at me? Instead

of if I was to kill him, would you be

mad at me? They also had a name in underworld

for Robert, they called him Old g. No, they called

him OG, which stood for old Guy. He was the

villain in character within the Underworld universe each time Clara

was and each time Kyle would kind of reach out

to Clara about Taye Ogee, Clara would very quickly say, let's.

Speaker 2: Talk about this in person.

Speaker 1: I don't want to discuss this online. They were able

to put together, based on Katie and Mike's version of

what had happened, that the group had actually come out

to Robert's house like his property, two weeks before he

was murdered, possibly to do some surveying, who knows, maybe

they were just there to hang out. They came out

to visit Clara at school, and that seemed to be

when Clara had given her final plea to Kyle that

this had to be done. And then when they executed

a search warrant on on Clara's room, they found that

she had written him a check for sixty dollars and

there was evidence in the chat laws that the money

was to cover his gas money and to purchase gloves

and something to cover his hair, not the sword. No.

After reading these chats, investigators decided this was enough to

arrest Clara and charge her with conspiracy to commit murder

Clara Jane Schwartz. Clara Jane Schwartz's trial began in October

of two thousand and two. At her trial, the prosecution

claimed that Clara was the mastermind and the ringleader behind

the whole thing. Katie, Mike, and Kyle had been the

ones to go to the scene, but Kyle had been

the one to do the actual killing, but these were

all under the orders of Clara. The prosecution told the

court that Clara Schwartz wanted her father dead. She had

hated her father for a long time. She wanted to

describe The prosecutor wanted to describe Clara as a manipulator

who labeled herself as the Priestess of High Chaos, which

I would.

Speaker 2: Do the same. That sounds like a bad I mean,

that's a pretty cool name.

Speaker 3: I'm kind of upset that someone like her decided to

have that title.

Speaker 1: Also, I listened to I heard about this case a

podcast and they called her the high Priestess of Chaos,

and I think that just sounds a little bit better

than the process of high chaos. I like the high

process high of chaos, but that's whatever' say. So. The

prosecutor went on to say that, make no mistake, Clara

called the shots. She was the overlord of the underworld.

But the defense team tried to get up and paint

a different picture of Clara. She was simply a troubled

young woman who had gotten herself just completely in mashed

with a fantasy world, and that she had troubled discerning

what was real and what wasn't and somehow she had

managed to stumble upon a friend, a friend who took

her literally instead of seeing that it was all a

part of a fantasy role playing game. Her defense said

that Kyle had carried out this directive to kill her father,

which was merely part of the game, not a genuine request.

In reality, the defense told the jury that the almost

silly world of Clara Schwartz collided with the sinister, dark

world of Kyle Holbert. Clara Schwartz had never intended for

any person to kill her father, and the prosecution was like, really, lovely,

I'm so happy you said that, And they put on

a surprise witness on the stand. Patrick House turned out

to be one of the prosecution's star witnesses. He got

up on the stand and told a story that completely

backed up the prosecution's case. Patrick House was Clara's former boyfriend.

They had met at a Celtic festival in Leesburg, Virginia

in June of two thousand and one, and they quickly

became a couple. It was a double date all the time,

Claara and Patrick, Katie and Mike. The two couples were inseparable,

and they were also playing Underworld all the time. In Underworld,

Patrick House was given the role of Path the Assassin,

and he was given the task of taying the villain

o G. But then outside of the game, Clara would

start talking to Patrick about how terrible her father was

and that you really wish he would just die somehow,

you know, maybe the Assassin of the Underworld would help

her in killing him. Patrick testified that at first he

thought this was just a part of the game, that

they were taking the fantasy part of it and talking

about it in real life, but it was still a

part of the game, according to Patrick, but as time

went on it became clear to him that this was

no longer a part of the game. Clara was genuinely

asking him, and the asks became more and more frequent

for him to find a way for her dad to die,

Clara would send Patrick recipes for herbal poisonings, just like brainstorming,

but you know, like, have you thought about doing it

this way? Here's a recipe for this?

Speaker 2: You know, just crazy.

Speaker 1: And then she would back up these requests by showing

him journal entries where she would talk about how her

dad was abusing her and trying to poison her. So,

you know, I mean mutual poisonings. I think that's fair, girl.

Speaker 2: Why don't you just poison him?

Speaker 1: Then? No, it would be too obvious. Oh yeah, And

then she started talking about how much money she was

going to inherit if her father died. If her dad

were to die, she would gain about four hundred thousand

dollars in inheritance.

Speaker 2: It's a lot of money. Back, I was gonna say, when.

Speaker 1: You're twenty years old, that probably is a lot of money,

and in two thousand and one, it's nothing to sneeze at.

I'll say that, But to her this would be an

incredible fortune. I'm also unsure if that's four hundred thousand

total or if that was each for the kids. That

I'm not sure of, but we'll just say four hundred

thousand each child. Clara told Patrick. He testified that her

only wish was that it was not able to be

traced back to her, and she wanted it.

Speaker 2: Maybe don't put it online.

Speaker 1: Well, I mean, how else are gonna talk about it? Yeah,

I mean we're dating and wesee each other all the time.

But like, also if you could make it look as

natural as possible. She said that she would prefer if

he was poisoned, but it was dealer's choice. And then

he talked about one specific incident where the two couples

would out to went on a double date to Ruby

Tuesdays in Leesburg, Virginia in September of two thousand and one.

Clara had ordered a steak. She ordered it rare and

had sent it back three times. Each time she sent

it back, she kept saying it tasted off, there was

something wrong with it. After the third time she sent

it back, she confided at her friends, saying that her

dad must have contacted the cook at Ruby Tuesdays. He

must have infiltrated the restaurant's kitchen and asked the cook

to poison her food that day.

Speaker 2: Yep, definitely what happened also, and.

Speaker 3: They were totally on board. They're like, yes, let me

poison your daughter for you.

Speaker 2: Great idea.

Speaker 1: I also love that there's a cook for ruby Tuesdays,

said chef. At that point, Patrick testified that Clara turned

to him and asked him when are you going to

do it? When are you going to kill him? And

that's when Patrick realized that this was no longer a

part of the game, and he was like, yeah, I

don't think I'm gonna see you anymore.

Speaker 2: I see myself out and.

Speaker 1: He distanced himself from Clara, and the defense was like, fuck,

this looks terrible. So they do what they can to

discredit Patrick. On cross examination, they got Patrick to admit

that he believed in fire breathing dragons and magical spells,

and that he believed that if you truly believed in

something with his whole being, it would become real.

Speaker 3: Patrick with a time and a place, and this is

not it can tell the truth, you can.

Speaker 2: Tell you don't have to say everything.

Speaker 1: The prosecution's other star witness was Katie Inglis. She took

a deal. I agreed to testify for the prosecution if

they only charged her with an accessory after the fact,

and part of her deal, and a part of her

deal was that she was only sentenced to a year

in prison. Katie testified about how Clara talked all the

time about how she wished her father was dead. Clara

told Katie that she had been a huge disappointment to

him and she never wanted to hit She never wanted

to be the person he wanted her to be. But

if he was to just die, she would stand to

inherit all of this money, and that was kind of

all she ever talked about. As they grew closer to Kyle,

Katie saw that Clara her wheels were Attorney Clara's sister, Michelle,

also testified for the prosecution. She testified that she never

saw any kind of behavior that would lead her to

believe that her father was abusing Clara or trying to

poison her. She said that she had never been abusing

and he had never tried to poison her, So you're

not gonna try and poison me. Why to try and

poison my sister?

Speaker 3: I feel like it doesn't work like that. No, it

usually starts with the oldest and then they move out

and then it moves down.

Speaker 1: You'd think so, but.

Speaker 2: I mean, there's always a possibility. Yeah, you never know.

Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I mean Michelle was the favorite.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: So. Michelle also testified that on Thanksgiving Day, Kyle Holbert

had come to the house as Clara's guest. Clara introduced

him to her dad and he it only stayed for

about twenty minutes. He did this weird walker on the

property and before he left, he showed off his sword

that he had brought with him to Thanksgiving.

Speaker 2: Let me just slice this turkey real quick.

Speaker 1: He had only been there for about twenty minutes, and

Michelle said that looking back on it now, she thought

it was some kind of weird recognissance mission, cutting an

outlay of the land, show you my knife. Oh you

got a side door here, you got a front door here,

that kind of thing. When it was the defense's turn

to present their case, they latched onto Clara. They latched

on to Clara was just a girl in a fantasy world.

And it wasn't her fault that Kyle had taken what

she had deemed as a fantasy and he took it

to reality that she was really requested, That all she

was really requesting was for him to die in the game.

It was never her intention for him to die in

real life. The trial lasted for about a week and

the jury deliberated for about four hours before they convicted

Clara Schwartz a first degree murder and conspiracy to commit murder.

Good the jurors recommended recommended a sentence of forty eight

years in prison. On February tenth, two thousand and two,

Clara Jane Schwartz was sentenced to serve forty eight years

in prison and has a tentative release date of November two,

twenty forty three, which, if you remember back to last

week's case, they are also set to be released in

twenty forty three the same time. Yes, spooky, but these

cases are ten years apart. Yeah, which is it's just

kind of weird that that's just how unintentional in my end.

But Kyle Halbert was sentenced to life in prison without

the possibility of parole. Mike Michael full was sentenced to

eighteen years for his involvement and knowledge of the crime.

Katie English took a plea deal and served one year

for conspiracy to commit murder.

Speaker 2: Wonder if those two are still together.

Speaker 1: I don't believe they are.

Speaker 2: It's a long time.

Speaker 1: It is a long time, but I feel weird about

couples that commit crimes together.

Speaker 3: Ooh, it's a weird bond.

Speaker 1: That's like at some point it's like we were bonded

together by this thing that we did. But at the

same time, it's like, maybe you two should separate.

Speaker 3: Maybe, yeah, maybe you guys need different influences saying something different.

Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure.

Speaker 1: And that is the case of the murder of Robert Schwartz.

Final thoughts. I unintentionally told you about friends, about killer friends. Yeah,

like they're very different.

Speaker 3: But I was like, oh, it's just it's a little sad.

I mean, it's obviously a sad story, yeah, but it's

sad in the sense that, like, I think Kyle's mental

state was just taken advantage of.

Speaker 2: One in this situation, Like it didn't need to.

Speaker 3: Happen, but she was obviously somebody that was going to

keep finding people and putting that pressure on somebody, and

it just happened to find somebody that was impressionable in that.

Speaker 1: Honestly, I think that's the perfect way of putting it,

is that, yeah, she was gonna do it, she was

gonna find someone. Yeah, and yeah, I think Kyle was

totally taken advantage of I from the get go, he

never stood a chance and that's so unfair.

Speaker 2: Yeah, like, yeah, he just didn't stand a chance. Yeah.

Speaker 3: And obviously when you're finally you're eighteen and you're let go,

like you have nothing to take care of yourself anymore.

Speaker 2: Every structure that was built into you is no longer there.

Speaker 3: You know, you're very You're already vulnerable, but now you're

even more vulnerable.

Speaker 2: You have nobody and just happened to find the wrong person.

Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's to me, it was just even sadder

that it was just something. It was just by happenstance

that they both happened to Renaissance Festival.

Speaker 2: It wasn't no random.

Speaker 1: It wasn't even like they met on a Dungeons and

Dragon's chat room, which is like a little more right.

Speaker 3: It's not like a searching for assassin and then like

getting like an actual somebody who has then actual assassin mindset.

Speaker 1: Right. Yeah, I forgetting many times during when I was

doing this research that Underworld was a made up fantasy

role playing game. I kept trying to do more research

on it. But it's like it's only unique to them, yes, exactly.

But I was like so you have vampires and orcs

assassin's Like I just I I don't get it, and

maybe I'm not meant to, which is fine.

Speaker 3: I think it's just like they just took everything that's

like made up, yeah, and then we're just gonna put

it all in here. And I would imagine like every

single one of them had a different character. He was

the assassin, somebody was vampire, somebody was an orc. Like, yeah,

they probably had They're all their own roles in that.

Speaker 1: Also, I got really frustrated at my husband, and I

feel bad about it now. I kept trying to ask

him what an orc was like specifically, and he kept

asking for context, and I said, well, isn't it like

a bad l or something. He's like, well, kind of

depends on what origin story you're looking for for an orc,

and I said, I don't know she made it. So

twice we got into heated arguments where I just ended

up walking away, and he was very confused because I

was yelling at him, but he wanted more context. But

I don't have anything. When I think of orc, I

just think of Lord of the Rings, okay, who are

born from mud. I don't think they're corrupt.

Speaker 3: I I don't know, okay, Okay, I've I have seen

those movies through and through, and every time I watch them,

I learn a new piece of information.

Speaker 1: Also, there's different raks of orcs in those movies. There's

the guy with the print on his face, but then

there's ones that come for mud that look horrible like goblins.

Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know enough.

Speaker 1: Also, there's apparently a lot of fantasy. Uh, obviously fantasy,

but like sex stuff.

Speaker 2: Yes, I thought that's where we were going.

Speaker 1: I was toushed on a little bit and I was like,

we don't have to go there. Okay.

Speaker 3: I thought it was that kind of fantasy role play

that we were getting into.

Speaker 2: It is like, this is gonna be interesting.

Speaker 1: To my knowledge, they were just brother and sister and

there was no sexual outside of Katie and Mike. There

was no other sexual things. Okay, and I'm choosing to

believe that.

Speaker 2: Yeah, we can stick with that.

Speaker 1: Cool all right? Anything else before Oh, I got thank

you so much for being here, for having me back.

I hope you come back again.

Speaker 2: I hope so too.

Speaker 1: Love you, Love you U FHU. List of my sources

will be in my show notes. You can all the

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