Two Men And A Tiger
A 400-pound white tiger on a Vegas stage, no real barrier, pyrotechnics popping, and an audience sitting just feet away. That kind of spectacle feels impossible now, which is exactly why we wanted to revisit the strange, glittery, complicated world of Siegfried and Roy and the era they helped define on the Las Vegas Strip.
We trace how two kids growing up in postwar Germany build an act that fuses classic stage magic with big cats, starting with a cruise ship job and a cheetah named Chico that Roy literally smuggles onboard. From there, the story rockets to Las Vegas headliner status, the Mirage mega-resort boom, and the creation of an iconic brand built on mystery, glamour, and danger. Along the way, we talk honestly about what was left unsaid publicly, including the way they protected their private lives in a time when being open could cost everything.
Then we get into the hard stuff: white tigers, breeding ethics, animal welfare, and why calling it “conservation” doesn’t automatically make it right. Finally, we unpack the 2003 Mirage attack involving Manticore, the stories people still argue about, and what it changed for animal acts in entertainment. Plus, because we’re us, we also detour through Gen X nostalgia like Columbia House, restaurant talk like 86 versus “68,” and a few strong opinions about modern life.
Subscribe wherever you listen, share this with your favorite Vegas or pop culture nerd, and leave us a review. What part of the Siegfried and Roy legacy do you think deserves to be remembered most?
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1 SPEAKER_00: It was so bad.
Laughing, jaring, uncle, you got like whatever.
SPEAKER_03: Welcome to Like Whatever, a podcast for, by, and
about Gen X.
I'm Nicole, and this is my BFFF, Heather.
Hello.
So this weekend I was watching um Pineapple Express.
I no joke have seen that movie at least 50 times.
I mean, that's not exaggerating.
It's probably more than that.
But I hadn't seen it in a couple years.
And so I watched it and I figured out that's where I got
the BFF.
Oh.
Because he um Seth Rogan and the other dude's name.
One of them says, dude, you're my BFFF, best fucking friends
for everyone.
Ah.
It's like, oh.
SPEAKER_01: How about that?
That's probably where I I don't think I've ever seen it.
I might I don't really pay attention.
SPEAKER_03: Oh my god.
I laughed so much, even though I know every word to the whole
thing.
Oh god, it's such a funny movie.
SPEAKER_01: It's pumpkin spice season.
Pretty excited.
I'm waiting for my tasty cake pumpkin pie.
SPEAKER_03: Well, yeah.
But that was a thing before pumpkin spice was like a plague.
SPEAKER_01: That was I was ready.
That's OG pumpkin.
Yeah, that is OG pumpkin.
Like you knew, and it would used to be closer to September or in
September when that came out.
Like now it comes out in August because I have been checking
every day.
I'm waiting for the memory to come up on Facebook the last
time I did it.
Because every year I take a picture so that I can know next
year when it's time.
And it should be any time now.
Man, they're good.
unknown: So good.
SPEAKER_03: So I was watching Jeopardy and 25 years in the
restaurant industry.
I was shocked I didn't know this.
So I want to know if you know it.
So the question was, or the answer was something about in
the restaurant when a food runs out, it's 86.
Um when the item is back, what number is it?
Which is obviously 68.
Like the guy guessed and got it right.
Have you ever heard of 68?
No.
Me neither.
Okay, good.
I was like, that's not a thing.
That's not a thing.
First of all, you typically don't get the item back.
No, not to say it, not it's the next day, and you just would
never.
Just have it.
Pre-shift thing, you let people know you have it.
Yeah.
Or you don't even say anything, right?
Yeah.
It's just not 86 anymore.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01: Somebody will be like, uh, what's 86 today?
SPEAKER_03: Or what or you're like 86 in the middle of a
shift, and you just assume tomorrow you'll have it because
you're a smart waitress and it's the next day, you go to the cook
and say, Hey, did we get such and such before you put it in
and then the cook's gotta find you and then you've got to
change the order.
SPEAKER_01: Remember when we 86 this fucking yesterday?
SPEAKER_03: All right, I'm glad it's not me.
I was I have never heard of 68.
Like when they asked, I was like, that's not a thing.
No.
No.
Okay, good.
Good.
I am so glad you've never heard of it.
I was like, what rock was I under?
I've never heard of that.
SPEAKER_01: I know I've been around a long time in a
restaurant and I've never heard that.
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, never.
unknown: Huh.
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
I'll have to ask uh one of my co-workers who worked in
restaurants.
We have two of them.
There's two of us.
Yes.
There's three of us in there that have yes.
SPEAKER_03: I work for the state, and pretty much anyone
that works for the state has always worked for the state, and
they certainly have not worked in the restaurant industry.
Yeah.
Anytime I hear someone say, in my current job, I had to put out
a fire, I'm like, no, you didn't.
No, you did not.
There was there was no fire.
You've never been in the weeds before in your life.
There's nothing that exists in this job that words putting out
fire.
You've never been weeded.
You don't know what that is like.
You've never worked for hours not even thinking.
Like you just are in automatic pilot doing what you need to do.
You have never until you get through it.
SPEAKER_01: Gone an entire night and gone, I don't think I peed.
Did I pee?
No, I didn't.
I have to go right now.
No, I didn't.
SPEAKER_03: And you think customers when you work for a
state agency are rude?
SPEAKER_01: You've never worked with the public.
SPEAKER_03: No.
SPEAKER_01: Everybody should have to do customer service.
Everyone.
Either retail or restaurants, because yes.
Man, it's a whole different breed.
I know when I watch these skits, there's a ton.
I of course I follow all the people who do restaurant skits.
And you know, there's people commenting like that never
happened, and you're like, I bet it did.
I as crazy as that sounds, a hundred percent that happened.
SPEAKER_03: Yep, yep.
I never finished watching the bear.
Did you ever watch it?
I never watch, I didn't finish it.
I couldn't finish it, but I will say it was pretty accurate.
SPEAKER_01: It's pretty accurate.
SPEAKER_03: Pretty accurate to what goes on.
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I can't even tell you how many times I've
eaten over a trash can.
Oh, yeah.
Just whatever.
SPEAKER_03: I never did it, but I'm a little bit germophobe.
But I remember bus boys bringing plates back from tables and
eating what people had left over on their plates because they're
like starving college kids and they're just like, well, I
didn't eat these fries.
They're fine.
The best though is when somebody accidentally ordered something.
Oh, I know.
And then the cooks would put it over for the waitresses, and it
was like vultures on a dead car.
SPEAKER_01: You don't even know.
Like, yeah, the words this is extra don't even get fully out.
They're like seagulls, like just you don't even have to wash the
plate.
SPEAKER_03: No.
SPEAKER_01: Not that you're like, well, I guess turn around
and turn back and it's all gone.
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, we waitresses did appreciate free food.
SPEAKER_01: Man, they come out of the woodwork too.
Like everywhere.
Hostesses, everything.
SPEAKER_03: Oh, yeah.
Everybody people are there army working that night show.
What?
Is that is that dead?
Is that that?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Good times.
Oh man, it's not.
Oh, guess what I heard today?
I did not even know it was still in business.
But Columbia House is going out of business.
I saw that.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
SPEAKER_03: I think it's been like 71 years or something.
I don't know, but you can order up until September 15th.
I'm gonna have to go and I owe them so much money.
I wonder if you could so many pennies.
I wonder if you can get stuff for a penny on September 15th,
because then you're not obligated to anything.
SPEAKER_01: I mean, what could they possibly be giving you?
I it's gotta be CDs, right?
I don't even have a CD player.
I don't either.
I've no idea.
I'll have to look.
We'll have to investigate to go on a Columbia house, order some
shit for a penny.
SPEAKER_03: I also saw this morning that the drummer of Z Z
Top passed away.
SPEAKER_01: I saw that yesterday.
I can't remember.
It's been a weird week.
A lot of a lot of celebrities have passed this week.
SPEAKER_03: They have.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
SPEAKER_03: A lot of just a lot of like the man who founded ESPN
passed away.
It's like a lot of randomness this week.
The um actress Peyton Hayden Hayden Petonary.
Yes.
She uh it's funny because I never watched it.
I knew of her, of course.
I never watched anything she was in now, but I recognized
everything that she did as a child actor.
I didn't even realize that was her.
And can I just say that if we are going to start using AI for
entertainment purposes, film shows, can we just AI the kids
and stop traumatizing all these little kids?
Because name a childhood actor that has not either been through
it or is going through it or is dead.
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
SPEAKER_03: Unless they got out of the industry.
SPEAKER_01: But the ones who have stayed with it, it's well,
um Blossom, I think, did pretty good.
SPEAKER_03: She left it for a while.
She did, and she's kind of an exception because she's like
uber super duper smart.
She is ridiculously smart.
She has like a PhD in physics or something.
SPEAKER_01: Increasing microbiology.
Oh, that's it.
That's it.
That's why uh on her character on the Big Bang theory is a
microbiologist.
Oh, okay.
I'd never watched that.
Yeah.
It's because they wanted her expertise.
She didn't know what she was talking about.
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, she could add lib.
Yeah.
The writers didn't have to do that.
SPEAKER_01: Or a neurobiologist, a neurobiologist.
She's a neurobiologist.
Either way.
Yeah.
Yeah.
She's smart.
She's an exception to the rule.
So was uh she's not a neurobiologist, but she's uh
some type of scientist.
Um darling from Roseanne.
SPEAKER_03: Oh yeah.
Yeah, she was on the Big Bang also.
The lead singer of offspring has a PhD.
SPEAKER_01: Good to know.
I do not.
Yep.
I'm never gonna have one.
SPEAKER_03: I know.
It was a goal of mine for a while.
Like when I was in my 30s and I earned my master's.
That was the goal eventually.
SPEAKER_01: Seems like a lot of work.
SPEAKER_03: It's a lot of work, and by the time I get it done, I
plan on being retired in 14 years.
SPEAKER_01: So what's the point?
Yeah, exactly.
I could call you Dr.
Nicole.
SPEAKER_03: Well, that's what I wanted.
SPEAKER_01: Was to be called doctor.
We just have to get famous doing this and get an honorary
doctorate.
Oh we can get it from UD since we didn't earn money.
I don't I think I still owe them credits.
I think if I went in there, they'd be like, mmm, yeah.
You owe us back some credits.
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03: Thank God college was cheap back then.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
SPEAKER_03: It was like$3,000 a semester.
And that included living on campus.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01: It was nothing.
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, because when I broke that contract, because
they were paying for me to go to school to become a math teacher,
and I didn't make it the year, um, or even one year.
But when I owed for that year, it was only like$3,500 or
something.
And we lived on campus, had meal plans.
I took full full-time course loads.
Like, yeah, that's crazy.
Yeah, it's like a hundred times more than at least.
Maybe a million times more.
It might be.
I don't know.
It might be.
I haven't checked recently.
unknown: Yeah.
SPEAKER_03: Well, part of my job is paying for kids to go to
college, but then you would know.
It's a million times more.
SPEAKER_01: I I believed you.
I don't.
Well, we have a fun one today.
I think.
Kind of.
Kind of yes, kind of no.
Oh.
Yeah.
But um, do you want to do your little spiel about the oh yeah,
yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03: Uh, like, share, rate, review.
Uh, find us wherever you listen to podcasts.
Yeah.
Find us on all all the socials at like whatever pod.
All of them.
Uh we have an email, like whateverpod at gmail.com, and we
have a website like whateverpod.com where you can
find all of our episodes and download them all and listen to
all of them.
All of them.
You can.
SPEAKER_01: They're all there.
SPEAKER_03: We're getting close to our hundredth.
I know.
SPEAKER_01: We're trying to come up with a good good idea.
SPEAKER_03: I've been trying to think and nothing feels good
enough.
I know.
SPEAKER_01: I know.
Stay tuned.
See what happens.
Yeah.
Hopefully we don't forget.
SPEAKER_03: We probably will.
We'll celebrate our 102nd.
SPEAKER_01: Well, I put it in.
I'm like, oh shit, that was the 100th.
Oh no.
What happened?
We'll figure it out.
SPEAKER_03: Oh well.
SPEAKER_01: We'll take suggestions too.
There you go.
Thinks of anything fun.
All right.
So today we're gonna fuck around and find out about Siegfried and
Roy.
SPEAKER_03: That's so funny.
I just got those two clam or two snails.
Snails.
And I've been thinking trying to think of names for them, and
Siegfried and Roy was almost one that I picked.
Well, I still haven't decided.
Maybe you'll convince me by the end of this.
SPEAKER_01: I got the idea the other day because um one of the
podcasts I listened to had done an ep had done like a four-part
series on them, and I was like, you know what?
I mean, obviously mine will not be as in-depth as theirs.
Right.
But I was like, I totally have forgotten about them.
I know.
Their story is rather fascinating.
Like it is like I'll bet it is.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So let's get it going here.
Yeah.
Siegfried Fischbacher entered the world in 1939 in Rosenham,
Germany, during the final years of World War II.
His childhood was shaped by scarcity, rationing, and the
emotional fallout of a nation in ruins.
His father, a painter, drafted into the war, returned
traumatized and distant.
Siegfried grew up in a household where silence was common and
affection was rare.
His father had a lot of trouble.
His father was a Nazi, so Damn.
Yeah, he had Yep.
That's wild.
Yeah.
Magic became his escape.
A borrowed library book on illusions introduced him to
sleight of hand, misdirection, and the idea that Wander could
be engineered.
He practiced obsessively, performing for neighbors and
classmates, discovering early that he had a gift not just for
tricks, but for showmanship.
Roy Horn, born in 1944 in Nordenham, Germany, grew up in a
similar fractured landscape.
His mother worked multiple jobs to support the family, and Roy
spent much of his childhood outdoors.
My accent is really coming in on that, Roy.
I really hear it.
I hear the Sussex County in that.
Animals fascinated him.
He felt drawn to their intelligence, their
unpredictability, their presence.
He formed bonds with creatures that others feared or dismissed.
Where Siegfroyd was meticulous, Roy, Roy, was instinctive.
Sigfro studied illusions and Roy studied animals.
Their personalities diverged, but their early lives were
shaped by the same forces war, scarcity, and the need to create
something beautiful out of the rubble.
In the late 50s, both men found work on the TS Bremen, a German
cruise ship.
Siegfried performed magic for passengers while Roy worked as a
waiter and steward.
Their paths crossed when Roy approached Siegfried after a
show and asked a question that would change both of their
lives.
What if you added a live animal?
Roy's suggestion was not theatrical.
He had already smuggled a cheetah named Chico aboard the
ship.
Yes, you've heard me.
Wow.
That's ambitious.
The story has become legend.
He befriended the cheetah at a zoo, convinced the handlers to
let him take the animal, and somehow managed to sneak Chico
onto the vessel.
SPEAKER_03: Alright, so I thought you were gonna say that
he convinced the cheetah to leave the zoo.
SPEAKER_01: Come on, Chico.
I'll show you the world.
I'm the king of the world.
Um he smuggled him in a laundry bag.
SPEAKER_03: A bag?
SPEAKER_01: A bag.
I mean, I don't think cheetahs are really that big.
I mean, they're big.
SPEAKER_03: Claws and teeth.
SPEAKER_01: Right.
I mean, if he just stretched a little bit, he would maybe he
sedated him.
Oh.
I don't know.
But he smuggled him in.
He's gonna go over the head with a club.
SPEAKER_03: The breadphones don't stop.
SPEAKER_01: The cheetah lived in the ship's hold, and Roy cared
for him daily.
Chico escaped at least twice.
Once he wandered into the ship's laundry area, startling crew
members.
SPEAKER_03: He was looking for his bag.
SPEAKER_01: Another time he slipped out during docking and
had to be coaxed back by Roy.
These escapes highlighted the risks inherent in Roy's approach
to animals, an approach based on trust, intuition, and emotional
connection.
It's not a good way to do it, but you know.
SPEAKER_03: That's hilarious.
SPEAKER_01: Should probably train final times.
SPEAKER_03: Just go to the zoo.
I know could you imagine coming home with me?
SPEAKER_01: Could you imagine trying to sneak anything onto a
cruise ship?
SPEAKER_03: I wonder if the Salisbury Zoo would let me take
a um Cappy Bear home.
I mean, I think you can just buy Cappy Bear.
You can.
It's legal to own them in Delaware.
I have done the research.
I would love to one day own one, but they are a lot of work.
It's like having a baby.
Like they need a lot of attention.
They need a pool.
SPEAKER_01: They need I want a mere cat.
I'm sure they're also a lot of work.
Or groundhog, not a groundhog, uh, a prairie dog.
Oh man, they're cute.
SPEAKER_03: They are cute.
But yeah, I I at least one day need to go like swim with capy
bears or something.
SPEAKER_01: Like I know you can.
There's a place down here, it's not cappy bears.
It's um otters.
You can swim with otters.
SPEAKER_03: Otters scare me a little bit.
I'd be afraid they'd try to take my eyes out or something.
I don't think that they're nice.
SPEAKER_01: I think these ones are nice.
They also do, and I've been wanting to do this, and I need
to look into it more.
The goat yoga and the kangaroo yoga.
I kind of want to do the kangaroo yoga because I kind of
want to just hang out with a kangaroo.
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
They can be violent too, though.
I know.
I watch ridiculous.
SPEAKER_01: They do they're doing yoga.
I feel like they're zen.
They got the zen kangaroo.
Okay.
Siegfried was stunned by it but intrigued.
Their first performance together involved Siegfried's illusion
and Roy's cheetah, creating a spectacle unlike anything the
passengers had ever seen.
The act was a sensation.
The ship's captain, initially furious, eventually embraced the
duo's success.
Siegfried and Roy were born, not through careful planning, but
through risk, instinct, and the belief that magic could be
expanded beyond human boundaries.
After leaving the cruise ship, Siegfried and Roy toured Europe,
performing in nightclubs, theaters, and cabarets.
Their act evolved, incorporating more animals and increasingly
elaborate illusions.
They became known for blending danger and beauty, creating
performances that felt both intimate and grand.
SPEAKER_03: It really was genius for the time.
SPEAKER_01: I mean, circuses were big then and they had
animals, but they weren't like making animals.
SPEAKER_03: But it wasn't just like two guys doing a magic
show.
SPEAKER_01: Magic show with a cheetah.
By the late 1960s, they caught the attention of American
producers.
Las Vegas was the appetite for a spectacle.
SPEAKER_03: Still is.
SPEAKER_01: Became the ideal home for their act.
They performed at the Stardust, the Lido, and other major
venues, gradually building a reputation as the most
innovative magicians in the city.
Their partnership deepened, though they never publicly
defined their relationship.
They lived together, worked together, and built a life
intertwined personally and professionally.
In an era when homosexuality was stigmatized, especially in
entertainment, Siegfried and Royd maintained privacy.
Their sexuality became an open secret, acknowledged quietly
within the industry, but never publicly discussed.
SPEAKER_03: I was thinking about that when you said that um
Siegfried's dad was a Nazi.
I was like, oof, that must have been very stressful for him
growing up with a Nazi dad.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01: By law, he has to that and that time in general.
SPEAKER_03: I mean Yeah, that time in general too, but in
Germany?
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
Las Vegas was a city built on fantasy, but it was also a place
where image mattered.
Siegfried and Roy's image was one of mystery, elegance, and
otherworldly glamour.
SPEAKER_00: Sure.
SPEAKER_01: In 1989, Steve Wynne opened the Mirage, the first
mega resort on the Las Vegas Strip.
It was a billion-dollar gamble designed to redefine the city's
identity.
The Mirage featured a tropical theme, a volcano, waterfalls,
and a still does.
It doesn't.
They took the volcano.
They closed the mirage.
I'll get to that.
unknown: Damn it.
SPEAKER_01: The Mirage featured a tropical theme, a volcano,
waterfalls, and a level of luxury that has never been seen
before.
That Las Vegas is in trouble.
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think Atlantic City is too.
SPEAKER_01: It's always in a state of trouble.
SPEAKER_03: Well, that's because it literally like borders the
ghetto of New Jersey.
Like it's literally like the casinos are on one side of the
street.
And the ghetto is literally on the street.
On the other side of the street, there are no nothing between it.
That was another thing I saw this morning on the news.
I saw so many good things on the news this morning.
They were at Atlantic City.
And did you know that it has the oldest boardwalk?
I did.
And also the longest.
I did.
And when it was first established, the most dangerous.
Yes.
I only go on it during the day.
Yes.
Um yeah, but when they first made it, it was because they
were getting too much sand in their carriages and something
else.
So they built it and it was in pieces, and they would pick it
up in the winter and store it.
SPEAKER_01: That's smart because otherwise you have to just
replace it every day.
Exactly.
SPEAKER_03: But now it's five miles long.
I didn't know it was that long.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
Um, they they have almost all but replaced Ocean City's
boardwalk with concrete.
There's just certain parts of it that are actual boardwalk.
And a few years ago, they pulled up parts of it to redo them or
whatever.
And you can buy pieces of like the old boardwalk.
Yeah.
I never did because I hate Ocean City's boardwalk.
Yeah, me too.
Stupid.
This is much better.
Yeah.
Yes.
Not as long, but yes.
It's much cheaper, also.
Uh Wynne needed a headliner who could match the resort's
ambition.
Siegfried and Roy were the obvious choice.
Their show became the centerpiece of the Mirage, a
multimillion dollar production combining magic, choreography,
pyronotechnics, and live big cats.
The Mirage Theater was custom built for them.
It featured advanced stage technology, hidden lifts, and
elaborate set pieces.
The show ran for more than a decade, attracting millions of
visitors and became the most successful magic act in history.
Siegfried and Roy were not just performers, they were symbols of
the Mirage's identity.
Their presence elevated the resort, making it synonymous
with spectacle and luxury.
And you know there was no barrier between the audience and
the stage where cats were just hanging out.
SPEAKER_03: I think it's crazy that they built an entire
theater for them and they only were there 10 years.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
I mean, uh yeah, supposedly there was like you were
literally within like feet of the big cats.
SPEAKER_03: And that was probably some of the draw that
brought people on.
SPEAKER_01: You know, any I imagine any of those shows, it's
the the element of like somebody could get eaten any minute now.
And they did.
Yay.
Central to Siegfried and Roy's act were they're white tigers.
These animals became iconic, representing purity, mystery,
and exotic allure.
But behind the beauty was a complex and controversial
reality.
White tigers are not naturally occurring species.
I did not know that.
I did.
They are the result of a genetic mutation known as leucism, which
affects pigmentation.
To produce white tigers consistently, breeders often
rely on inbreeding, which can lead to serious health issues
because they apparently all came from one cat.
Crossed eyes, spinal deformities, kidney problems,
immune deficiencies, and a high infant mortality.
Animal rights groups criticized white tiger breeding, arguing
that it prioritized aesthetics over animal welfare.
Zoos began phasing out white tiger breeding programs.
Siegfried and Roy defended their practices, insisting their
animals were healthy and well cared for well cared for.
They argued their breeding program was responsible and that
their tigers were ambassadors for conservation.
The truth is complex.
Their animals were undeniably well cared for, living in
luxurious habitats and receiving constant attention.
But the broader controversy surrounding white tiger breeding
remains unresolved because they shouldn't have been there at
all.
SPEAKER_03: Well, that and the uh best of the best are the ones
who were living these lives.
What did Siegfried really do with the ones that had twisted
spines and all those other things?
Probably euthanized it.
I have no doubt.
SPEAKER_01: That's what they do when those breeding situations
Yeah.
I mean, that could be said of any breeding of any plus you
can't say it's conservation of something you made up.
Yeah.
It doesn't occur naturally.
It's not a it's not a thing.
No.
So it's not conserving when you made it up.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
So there you go.
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, but you throw words like that out, and people
are like, oh, okay.
SPEAKER_01: Oh yeah, you're I see.
They are living and they did live fantastic lives.
Absolutely.
Except they weren't tigers, and tigers want a tiger.
And so even if then like it was funny because on the the podcast
I was listening to, the one was like, Yeah, they lived in
luxury, but they weren't ever allowed to leave.
And she said to the other host, I mean, if you could just if
they said you lived in this beautiful mansion and have all
this food and just do whatever you want, but you can never
leave, would you do it?
And I was like, Yes.
Absolutely.
I would be a captive tiger tomorrow.
Absolutely.
If you said all I had to do was lay in this beautiful uh and I
have my own pool, they had their own pool.
They had underground Saturday.
SPEAKER_03: I didn't leave the house at all.
I mean, I I would love to never leave the house, especially now
that we have like DoorDash.
There's no reason to leave your house anymore.
SPEAKER_01: You never have to grocery delivery.
I am living in the greatest time, and I have this job.
Yeah.
Where I have I cannot work from home, unfortunately.
And I have to leave the house.
And it's a sad thing.
SPEAKER_03: I only have to go to the office three days a week,
and I stay home as much as I can.
And it's funny, my friend, she's like the total opposite of me,
because it's it's a rough day for her if she had to be alone.
She's like, I just I'm afraid I'm gonna get lonely, and I'm
just, you know, just did nothing, just around the house.
I'm like, oh, those are the best days ever.
And she looks at me like you're crazy.
I don't even know what it's like to be lonely.
SPEAKER_01: I I don't ever feel I am my cats.
Why would I be lonely?
I don't think I'm capable of feeling lonely.
I don't think so either, for me.
I don't think I just am alone.
I don't, I don't and it's not even like I enjoy my own
company.
I don't, but I just I like TikTok or whatever.
I just don't want to do anything, but I have to leave my
house.
Yeah, yeah.
I need to find a post office job that I can just do from they
have them work from home jobs.
SPEAKER_03: But I need somebody to give me a mansion and tell me
I can never leave.
For real.
SPEAKER_01: Like like a beauty and the beast situation.
Yeah.
She had all them books.
Yeah.
She didn't suffer.
She had she talked to the cops and the saucers and stuff.
Exactly.
Like me talking to my guests.
Yeah.
Same thing.
Same.
You can't be lonely.
SPEAKER_03: They make as much sense, if not more, than most
people that I know see.
SPEAKER_01: You can't be lonely if the dishes talk to you.
Yes.
unknown: Yep.
SPEAKER_03: I even accidentally, because I changed my screensaver
at work today and I put Roxy, my new kitten, on there.
Uh-huh.
And I closed the window and her picture popped up.
I was like, oh, you're so cute.
Like I was talking to her.
I'm like, oh my God.
I really do.
I am a crazy cat lady.
It's official.
SPEAKER_01: That's all right.
Yeah, I can't.
I mean, I like to just sometimes I just eat I just ate mashed
potatoes the other night just for dinner.
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
I've been eating Lucky Charms for dinner.
Oh, yeah.
I'm almost out.
Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_01: I like buttered bread for dinner.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03: An English muffin.
Now that is high society.
That is high society.
SPEAKER_01: Especially if you put sugar and cinnamon on it.
SPEAKER_03: Sometimes I just snack like and it'll go in and
out of like healthy or not, like all the yogurt, and then I'll
have some potato chips, and then I'll eat some like a little bit
of fresh fruit, just a little bit.
And then a granola bar, and then ice cream.
And it's just like just little bits of each.
I just kind of graze throughout the night.
The air fryer was a game changer in life.
God, I love my air.
It's a game changer in life.
You can actually heat up leftovers and they taste good in
the air fryer.
SPEAKER_01: French fries, fries, pizza.
Anything.
Yes.
That's it's truly an amazing invention.
It really, really.
What a time to be alive.
You don't have to leave your house.
SPEAKER_03: You have air fryers.
Have you made mozzarella sticks in yours?
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
So good.
Yep.
What a time to be alive.
SPEAKER_03: And now almost everything frozen comes with air
fryer directions on it.
It's awesome.
SPEAKER_01: So much faster than a few different things.
You just have to cool it.
unknown: I know.
SPEAKER_01: So much faster than a microwave.
It is.
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
And healthier.
You're not putting all those healthier rays.
It's just blowing hot air in there.
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
SPEAKER_03: It's not putting microwaves in there.
SPEAKER_01: There's that later.
SPEAKER_03: Okay.
SPEAKER_01: Despite their reputation for discipline and
control, Siegfried and Roy experienced several incidents
involving escaped big cats.
In the 1980s, a tiger escaped from their training facility and
wandered into a residential neighborhood.
The animal was eventually recaptured without injury, but
the incident raised concerns about safety protocols.
Another escape involved a tiger breaking free backstage at the
mirage, causing a brief shutdown of the theater.
Handler secured the animal quickly, but the episode
highlighted the risks inherent in working with large predators.
Chico the Cheetah, Roy's Cheetah, escaped multiple times
during their early career, including the incident aboard
the TS Bremen.
Safety protocols at the Mirage were extensive, involving
multiple handlers, reinforced enclosures, and emergency
procedures.
However, the sheer number of animals involved made absolute
control impossible, and they didn't separate the audience.
Animal behaviorists warned that even well-trained big cats could
act unpredictably, especially under performance stress.
Any wild animal can.
I mean, and you think about it, like people say, you probably
weren't allowed to have flash photography.
You wouldn't think so.
You couldn't have flash photography anywhere.
Anywhere, no.
But like, I mean, there's audience there, like me.
SPEAKER_03: Cheering, clapping, love music, the pyro
pyrotechnics or whatever.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01: What if one was like brought an elk call or something
and was like, whatever elks say.
Then you got it, then you got a a tiger.
SPEAKER_03: Somebody had a steak in their pocket from the buffet.
SPEAKER_01: From the buffet, they brought it in.
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01: He smells steak.
And he ripped you to shreds trying to find it.
Chicken?
I mean, anything.
I know how the dog is when I have something in my pocket.
He's unrelenting.
And he's only 15 pounds.
Not 400.
Uh, let us take this moment to do your um diarrhea.
SPEAKER_03: I was just thinking about it too.
SPEAKER_02: Because I repeat your life, we're lucky and
through her teenage bike.
SPEAKER_03: Um, all right.
So for um Nicole's diary, today is October 19th, 1985.
Apparently, my Nanan, I remember this boyfriend Ed, and they did
used to travel a lot.
So Nanan and Ed went to Texas about a week ago, and then I
happened to have Oh, yes.
A postcard from Blanco, Texas.
Dated October 22nd, 1985.
So, yes, it does line right up.
Um hi Nicole.
Spent two days in Mexico.
Hope to go back.
Another day later, we walked over the border.
See you when we get back.
Love, Nan, and Ed.
That's good.
I know.
And like she actually sent me a postcard.
Let's see, the stamp was 14 cents.
SPEAKER_01: Wow.
I have no idea what postcard stamps are now.
You'd think I'd know that, but I don't.
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
Nobody sends postcards anymore.
Oh, you'd be actually surprised.
Oh.
And then you have to remember where I am.
I have like my old like pre-911 address.
RD2 bucks 751.
That's funny.
It took a lot to get used to changing that when it went over
to uh yeah.
Oh, that was only part of it.
Oh my god.
So oh, there were still more on that day, October 19th.
Oh god, we didn't even do it all.
This one's fun too.
Yesterday I went to see Better Off Dead with Stacey and her
dog.
SPEAKER_00: Oh that is cute.
SPEAKER_01: I know.
Wow.
I love that movie.
That is a good movie.
Yeah.
unknown: Okay.
Okay.
SPEAKER_01: I was gonna say something.
I don't remember what it was.
Oh, I did want to interject because I just pulled it out.
I have switched to vaping.
I meant to say it up top and I forgot.
I have made the transition.
SPEAKER_03: Which absolutely floors me.
SPEAKER_01: I have been smoking cigarettes since I was 12 years
old.
SPEAKER_03: Not only has she been smoking cigarettes since
she was 12 years old, but she has been saying since she was 12
years old that she will never quit smoking.
SPEAKER_01: She's gotta die of something anyway.
I mean, technically, this is probably gonna kill me faster.
Which is also a reason.
Because they don't well, I asked the lady at the out at the
cigarette outlet.
I said, I mean, so what's the deal?
Is it really and she was she was pretty anti-vaping for somebody
who works in a cigarette outlet.
She was like, at least we know what's in cigarettes.
No, we don't.
And we don't know what's in this.
There's so many chemicals in cigarettes.
Well, but we know what the chemicals are, and this they
don't.
They don't know because there's no long-term studies on this as
opposed to smoking.
Either way, I mean really it doesn't matter because anyway,
I'm gonna die of something.
Might as well oh shit.
Um so I'm I'm on I can't decide how I feel about it.
I like it because you can just smoke anytime, anywhere, anyhow.
Like, I don't have to like but and you're not like taking the
10 minutes to smoke a cigarette, and like you can like take a pup
and do something else, and like you could just it's not um is it
flavored?
No, it's cigarette flavored.
Well, I asked, she was like, we don't have any of the flavored
ones, and I was like, I just want it to taste like
cigarettes.
And she was like, I got you.
This one tastes like cigarettes, and it does.
Not camels.
Oh.
If maybe if camel came out with one, if you're listening, Camel.
SPEAKER_03: That would definitely kill you.
Are you RJ Reynolds?
SPEAKER_01: Is Camel RJ Reynolds?
I don't remember which one's which, but I think so, because
Marl is um no, I think Marlboro is RJ Reynolds.
I think Camel is uh Winston-Salem.
SPEAKER_03: Is it?
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
SPEAKER_03: Remember when there were Winston-Salem cigarettes?
SPEAKER_01: There still are, yeah, I know.
But I think Camel is let's find out.
Okay.
Let's Google that.
SPEAKER_03: Well, they still make Virginia Slim.
That's the right button.
SPEAKER_01: Uh it is RJ Reynolds that makes the camels in
Winston-Salem, North Carolina.
And the Marlboro is a Philip Morris.
Yes.
That is correct.
So now we got that.
SPEAKER_03: When I was in college, I smoked the old lady
um Virginia Slim 120s.
It was like a straw.
Yeah, it's like a stir, like a swizzle stick.
SPEAKER_01: Swizzle thick.
They were very long and thin.
SPEAKER_03: Very, very thin.
Hilarious.
I'm amazed that they didn't just go poof when you lit them up.
SPEAKER_01: But you remember capris?
Oh yeah.
They were little too.
Yeah.
They were lady cigarettes.
SPEAKER_03: Ladies, I was a lady.
That's my idea.
Yeah.
With the menthol.
Especially when we went to UD.
When the menthols.
Especially a lady when we went.
Yeah.
Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_01: You sure were.
I have always smoked the camels.
SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
You have.
SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_01: So maybe they should make them.
SPEAKER_03: Did they still make those ones where you squish them
and they turn into menthols?
SPEAKER_01: Which it's because they're not allowed to call them
lights anymore.
Like it's not camel lights anymore.
And it's not Marlboro lights, so it's the color of the container.
So camel blues are the camel lights, but camel crushes come
in a blue box.
So you have to watch the person who's getting them for you
because they could give you the wrong one and then you're stuck
with the crushes.
SPEAKER_03: Don't you hate it when people act like they don't
know anything about cigarettes?
Like you work in the Wawa.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
SPEAKER_03: Every time somebody orders, you don't have to be
like, what?
Which one do they?
SPEAKER_01: Well, now the Wawa just has numbers, so you just
tell them what number you want.
SPEAKER_03: Not mine.
SPEAKER_01: Oh, mine does.
SPEAKER_03: I was late for work today because I went into the
frickin' Wawa.
And the lady that waits on me all the time, I walk up, I'm in
a rush because I'm all like I should be there at 7.30, and I'm
only like a minute from work, but it's 7.30 right now.
And I'm like two pack two packs Marlboro ultra-lates.
And she gets them out, scans them, and goes, ID, please.
SPEAKER_01: And I was like, You gotta be kidding me.
SPEAKER_03: Are you fucking serious right now?
Like, and I'm always very, very, very sympathetic to that because
I did waitress and it is annoying when somebody fights
you on the ID thing.
But do I really look like I'm under 18?
SPEAKER_01: First of all, 20, 21.
You have to be 21 to buy under one.
Same date.
Either way.
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
SPEAKER_01: You're nowhere near either.
SPEAKER_03: Also, you have sold me so many packs of cigarettes.
I know you know who I am.
All right.
So I had to go out to my car.
SPEAKER_01: Oh man.
SPEAKER_03: And then by the time I came back in, the line was
like super long.
But they opened another register.
So I went up to him and I asked him, and she comes around with
them.
She's like, I have them right here.
Well, if you would have sold them to me the first time,
bitch, then we would be done.
This would be at work right now.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
I used to smoke my favorites.
Oh, and do you know what else they have in the cigarette
outlet that I did not buy because I thought this is gonna
go horribly wrong.
SPEAKER_03: All I can think of are like weed products, but I
know that wasn't it.
SPEAKER_01: They had cloves.
Shut up.
I won't shut up, but I knew that buying a full pack of cloves, I
would smoke the full pack of cloves and probably be dead.
SPEAKER_03: Your lungs would probably just disintegrate at
this point.
Yeah, like that.
SPEAKER_01: That's why I said to her, I was like, oh, those, oh,
are those cloves?
And she said yes.
SPEAKER_03: Or maybe the oil would line your I don't know.
SPEAKER_01: Either way, it was gonna go horribly wrong.
So I did not buy them.
But I might go back and get them.
SPEAKER_03: I wonder who smokes them now.
I don't know.
SPEAKER_01: Maybe rave kids.
90s clubs.
Do they call Raves?
90s clubs kids.
Anyway, so I I've I've I've been now, I have been without a
physical cigarette since uh Friday.
SPEAKER_03: That blows my mind.
Yeah.
I don't even know who you are anymore.
SPEAKER_01: I don't either.
I mean, I'm still smoking.
SPEAKER_03: It doesn't count.
SPEAKER_01: It does count, goddamn it.
SPEAKER_03: Alright, well, if it counts to you, but it doesn't
count to me.
SPEAKER_01: Fine.
Anyway, who knows if they're healthier?
Probably not, but I get to smoke anywhere.
So it's even better.
All right.
Yes.
Back to Siegfried.
Yes.
On October 3rd, 2003, during a performance at the Mirage, Roy
Horn was attacked by a 400-pound white tiger named Manticore.
I remember this.
The incident occurred during Roy's 59th birthday show.
Which is very sad.
The sequence of events remains disputed.
Some witnesses claim Roy stumbled, causing Manticore to
become confused.
Others say Roy used an unusual command.
Siegfried and Roy later stated Manticore sensed Roy was having
a stroke and attempted to drag him to safety.
But it's even more ridiculous because they said that he used
his teeth to relieve the pressure.
SPEAKER_03: Oh my god.
SPEAKER_01: That is the story they went.
Whether or not, like I I dou I doubt I don't think that they
really believe that, but maybe they just told themselves that
to make themselves feel, especially Roy, because like
Well, it is bad PR too.
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
Because at this point they're up there in age, so they probably
have an older crowd, and older people I don't think want to
watch people get made.
Mauled by a tiger.
Yeah, I don't think so.
SPEAKER_01: I'm older people.
SPEAKER_03: Well, I'm thinking blue hairs.
He did have a stroke after the tiger mauled him.
And the tiger could have sensed that he was having a stroke.
SPEAKER_01: I think he had the stroke because the tiger mauled
him.
SPEAKER_03: Oh.
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
I think it was it was directly related and not a prior event.
Okay.
Manticore grabbed Roy by the neck and dragged him off stage.
Handlers rushed in using fire extinguishers to separate the
tiger from Roy.
SPEAKER_03: That was their protection?
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
SPEAKER_03: That was their best plan of a tiger tranquilizer.
Because they just grabbed It was probably just the fire
extinguishers hanging on the wall.
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
There was no.
There should be tasers.
They the the the they did another not too long ago.
One of the handlers came out because they kept the whole
thing tight-lipped.
And of course, you know, Steve Wynne owns the Mirage.
And they had passed all the US Day A inspections and safety
inspections.
So but there was no barrier between the big cats and the
crowd.
So you know Steve Wynne was just paying these people off and just
being like, well, you know, move it on.
So when this incident happened, they investigated it, but of
course it was no fault.
And you know, but I mean, come on.
It's your fucking fault that you have tigers on a stage.
Anytime you get bit by a tiger, it's your fault.
Yeah.
There's no circumstance in which a tiger is at fault for biting
you.
SPEAKER_03: No.
None.
And we'll never know the real story of what happened that day
because anybody that works there has an NDA and well or you're
gonna swim with the fishes if you open your mouth.
SPEAKER_01: Well, that was that this guy, um, apparently the
fishes.
No, but apparently he had a lot of PTSD after this incident and
went on to become an alcoholic and he didn't see his kids, and
he suffered a lot and kept it all in because they weren't
allowed to talk about it.
But he has come out and said that it was uh apparently.
I guess Mant some speculation is is because it was.
His 59th birthday thing.
He was amped up any, like it was, you know, there was a lot
of celebrities in the audience, and it was like extra, and it
was just him on stage with Manticore.
This handler apparently told him prior to that Manticore was not
the best choice for this.
That Manticore had not been trained very well, and
apparently Manticore was not the best option.
He wasn't very docile, and um, so this guy kind of held said he
felt a lot of responsibility for it because Manticore shouldn't
have been on the stage.
So I guess Roy either made a wrong move and then tried to
correct, and well, he said the first problem was Manticore
missed his mark.
And that's where it started to go wrong.
And then I guess when Roy tried to correct him, he bopped him on
the nose with the microphone.
And I'm assuming tigers don't care for that, which I don't
know who would, in front of all those people.
And they're like, hey, there's celebrities.
Yeah, there's celebrities here, and you just bopped me on the
nose.
SPEAKER_03: I'm not a kid.
SPEAKER_01: Not cool, bro.
I'm already inbred.
I don't belong.
I'm a freak of nature.
And now you're hitting me because I didn't make make the
piece of tape that I don't even know what tape is, because I'm a
tiger.
And you're mad because I was like an inch past this piece of
tape.
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, see, something that delicate though, you just
shouldn't be doing it.
Like no.
SPEAKER_01: Roy suffered severe injuries, including massive
blood loss, a crushed windpipe, and partial paralysis.
The USDA investigated the incident but found no clear
evidence of wrongdoing.
Oh, I wonder why.
Yeah.
Cha-ching.
The Mirage conducted its own internal review, which remains
largely confidential.
Also, to this day, which this I find in fucking insane.
That was it was recorded that night, and that has never been
seen.
Nowhere, no how.
It's not on the black web.
It is nowhere.
There is nowhere.
Nowhere.
That's pretty amazing.
And at this point, how it has not come out by now.
Steve Wynn had to have made that disappear.
How nobody like Wow.
The fact that it was recorded and then has never been seen.
Has never been seen.
Probably Steve Wynn's probably seen it.
They had to see it.
Siegfried and Roy has probably seen it.
I'm sure they burned that.
You know some people have seen it.
SPEAKER_03: But if there was a copy out there in this day and
age, it would be out.
It would be out.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
It has never been seen.
They had destroyed it by our eyes.
Um animal behaviorists argued Manticore's actions were
consistent with predatory behavior.
Siegfried and Roy insisted the tiger was trying to help Roy.
The truth may never be known.
I mean, I think the truth is out there.
I think that we know that the tiger was not trying to help
Roy.
I think the tiger got mad.
I mean, because here's my thing about it.
That tiger could have killed him.
SPEAKER_03: Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01: Just right there.
Right then.
SPEAKER_03: Especially if the only thing they were fighting
him with was fire extinguishers.
SPEAKER_01: I mean, he had no chance against a 400-pound
tiger.
Roy was a little fellow too.
You weren't he didn't.
Manticourt was mad and was trying to tell him a lesson.
I mean, otherwise he would not have.
He's like, You want to fight, bitch?
Let's go.
Let's go.
And but they said because he was dragging him back to his lair,
he was, you know, trying to help him.
And he just didn't want to murder in front of all those
people.
I I guess.
Too many witnesses.
Yeah.
He missed his tape and was like, that's the murder tape.
I don't know.
But a 400-pound tiger, if it wants to, absolutely.
It's you're dead in seconds.
SPEAKER_03: Well, if it bit him in the neck.
Yeah.
And he almost bled out.
It kind of did kill him.
Try to.
SPEAKER_01: Well, apparently it did.
I guess he was dead on the table.
And they brought him back.
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
SPEAKER_01: Did they use magic?
They did.
It was an illusion.
You were dead and now you're not.
Take that, Chris Angel.
That's what I would have said if I was Roy.
Your illusion suck.
Chris Angel.
David Blaine.
Have you come back from the dead?
SPEAKER_03: How many times have you died?
SPEAKER_01: Did you get mauled by a tiger and then showed back
up?
No, you sure as shit didn't.
I fucking did.
Take that, David Copperfield.
Stick that in your Statue of Liberty and smoke it.
I don't think he talked trash.
I don't know.
I can't say that he didn't.
He might have called.
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, you don't know that.
SPEAKER_01: I don't.
I wasn't there.
Roy's recovery was slow and difficult.
He regained limited mobility and speech, but never returned to
full health.
Siegfried became Roy's caretaker, supporting him
through years of rehabilitation.
Their partnership deepened.
They appeared publicly several times, including a final
performance in 2009, but their career as performers were
effectively over.
Manticore lived out his life at their private sanctuary.
The Mirage moved on, shifting its focus to other acts.
And you know, the first thing he did say is as they were wheeling
him out, I guess he could talk a little bit, and he said, Don't
let them put him down.
Which I, you know, all joking aside, it is very sad that he
got mauled by a tiger.
It's not funny.
It's it's very sad.
But but I mean, you you fucked around and you found out, like,
you know, it's it and it is it it is nice that they didn't put
the cat down.
That he was very adamant about them not well today they would
for sure.
Oh, they would have done it right there on the stage.
Oh, yeah.
They would have they would have shot the cat right there.
Yeah, for sure.
And that's unfortunate.
And this is why we shouldn't fuck around with fucking wild
animals, as I have a bird in my house.
A tiny dinosaur lives in my home.
SPEAKER_03: How can you not see yourself as a cat whisperer when
you made friends with a cheetah at the zoo and said, Hey buddy,
come home with me?
Well, that was he was like, All right, cool.
SPEAKER_01: So that was part of it.
That was part of the other problem.
They did not, they had handlers and stuff, but Roy's thing was
they went off intuition and they weren't trained like like lions
at the zoo, and which attack people too.
SPEAKER_02: Right.
SPEAKER_01: And so it was more of a like they slept in the bed
with them, and that's crazy.
I it's insane.
I mean, tiny cats.
I have two, and I look at my cat and I'm like, You would kill me
right now if you could.
Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_03: Like my little three-pound Roxy the other day.
Oh my gosh, I was at the kitchen counter, like fixing food, and
she leapt and put both front feet into my right butt cheek
and literally hung there.
I was screaming, like, and I don't know how to get her.
Like she's behind me, and oh, she finally just fell.
It was so painful.
SPEAKER_01: That's what I'm saying.
So painful.
Cats are murderous animals.
They are.
They uh at any size.
They're built to kill.
They are at any size.
We have never bred that out of them.
Nope.
Like dogs, like, but cats are murder machines and they don't
care who you are, they don't care that you've been feeding
when you stop feeding them.
I mean, for God's sakes, if their bowl is half empty,
they're like, You should fall asleep, see what happens.
I'm gonna take your nose right off your face.
They don't care, yeah.
They will kill you.
So 400 pounds of that really has an attitude and they know how to
use it.
But yes, all kidding aside, it was very sad, and I do feel bad
for it.
But he did survive, and it he did survive, and it is was
probably very heartbreaking for someone who has been sleeping
with these cats to think that one of them just tried to take
me out, and it was probably a blessing in disguise, like
they've been doing it a long time.
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and when you do it for that long, something
bad's gonna happen, so you didn't die.
So maybe nobody in your audience.
Nobody in your audience died.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's probably better that it attacked you and
not, you know, a little kid.
Yeah.
I did see them.
SPEAKER_03: Live?
SPEAKER_01: Not live.
I did not see the I saw the cats because I've been to them, I was
at the Mirage.
They had them.
Um, I was there my first time in Vegas was like 2001.
And I went to the Mirage and I I didn't go see Sigford anywhere,
but they have their cats in there, and you could go and see
the cats.
I had seen the cats.
I have seen the murderess.
Were they cross-eyed?
No, okay, they were just regular because they probably put the
cross-eyed ones down.
Siegfried and Roy lived in a sprawling estate known as Little
Bavaria.
The property featured multiple homes, lush gardens, and
habitats for their animals.
Also, this part of their relationship seemed to me like
probably the reason why they made it so long.
They had separate houses.
That's what Helena Bonham Carter and Tim Burton had separate
houses.
They were right next to each other.
I mean, they did get divorced, but I mean, because they said
that they deck they they decorated differently.
So one had one house and one had the other house.
Roy also had his mom lived there with them, and he built her an
aviary because she liked birds.
So Wow.
Yeah.
Um, multiple residential buildings, extensive gardens and
walking paths, custom-built animal habitats, training
facilities, a private lake, a Bavarian-style lodge,
underground tunnels, and staff housing.
The estate was both a home and a sanctuary.
After uh Roy died May 8th, 2020, and Siegfried died January 13th,
2021.
Little Bavaria underwent reconstruction.
Some parts have been preserved as memorials, others have been
repurposed.
The full extent of the reconstruction remains private.
Supposedly they're reopening it this year.
So what happened was when they died, well, obviously Roy died
first in May of 2020, and then Siegfried had a rapid cancer.
Yeah, so who was probably fighting it and then just let
go.
Um apparently because they didn't have, I don't know if
it's because they didn't have any heirs or what if it was in
probate or whatever, but the estate went into complete and
they had squatters live in there, and it was apparently
like bad.
And somebody who has recently, last year, I think it was 2024,
2025, had decided that they were gonna re redo it, turn it back
to the way it was, and open it as a museum.
Yeah.
And there's apparently they had a stage in there, so they're
gonna, they have, they're gonna, their plan is to have like live
bands and open it up as like a as a performance place for small
artists.
And um yeah, so like they said, you know, Las Vegas doesn't hold
on to any sentimental they just knocked them casinos down and
built something else up.
They don't care about their past, except for the neon
graveyard.
But I think that's more of a a recent thing where they've
started embracing their past.
I think prior to that they were like, knock that shit down and
put something else up.
So it is nice that they have decided to um put it back to the
way it was.
Right.
Siegfried and Roy were central to the Mirage's identity.
Their show helped define the era of mega resorts.
Steve Wynne's vision transformed the strip.
The Mirage's success paved the way for Bellagio, Treasure
Island, and other mega resorts.
After the mauling, the Mirage shifted its focus.
MGM acquired the resort.
The area, the era of big cat acts faded.
Uh, the Mirage is now undergoing redevelopment, and its future
remains uncertain.
So I remember seeing the volcano at the Mirage erupt.
Um, I guess when I got to Las Vegas was the heyday of these
mega resa resort because I they were building Mandalay Bay the
first time I went.
The Luxor was built and I stayed at the Excalibur because it was
cheaper and they're all connected by the law.
SPEAKER_03: You always stayed at the Excalibur.
SPEAKER_01: Fucking love the Excalibur.
I don't care.
SPEAKER_03: I stayed at the Excalibur with it.
SPEAKER_01: It's a fucking okay.
It is a hotel room.
Yes, it's a fine is it outdated?
Yes.
Is it dirty?
No.
It's it's fine.
It's an outdated that back then literally cost$25 a night.
Yeah.
You were hooked to the Luxer, which was like$80 a night.
Then Mandalay Bay was like$115 a night.
Why in the hell?
For a room that you're just gonna close your eyes and take a
shower in, would you not stay at the cheapest resort?
Exactly.
SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
SPEAKER_01: And they had the medieval times thing.
Man, I I don't care.
I love the Excalibur.
I don't I don't even know if it's open still.
Last time I went, we stayed at the New York, New York.
SPEAKER_03: I feel like the last time I was there, which was old
am I?
How old is my sister?
Seven years ago.
Um I think it was still open.
I think it is still open.
Back then, and I think was the volcano still there?
Yeah.
I feel like I've seen the volcano every time I was there.
I think that they still had it.
SPEAKER_01: Um hold on.
I'm gonna see how much it costs for a room.
Okay.
So I looked it up.
The cheapest room for tonight, which is August.
SPEAKER_03: Okay, yeah.
I don't know why.
Well, people, August is the off season because it's hot as fuck
out there.
SPEAKER_01: I went in August and it was god awful.
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
SPEAKER_01: Um the average for tonight, which is a Wednesday,
and tomorrow tonight, two nights,$97.
But wait, that's the cheapest.
They have uh um a luxury suite for$432 a night.
SPEAKER_03: What?
At the X Cali here?
SPEAKER_01: They have a two-bedroom luxury suite for$512
a night, and they have a two-bedroom suite for$560 a
night.
That's crazy.
I know.
So I guess I won't be going to Las Vegas anytime soon.
SPEAKER_03: We'll stay at we'll go and we'll stay at like Circus
Circus.
SPEAKER_01: That's the same caliber.
I mean, you are right on the street.
SPEAKER_03: Well, that's the thing with Circus Circus,
though.
It's way, way down there.
SPEAKER_01: That's the thing I liked about the X caliber
because it was so cheap and it's that's in the middle.
It's it's at that end of the it's at that end, but you're
within.
You can walk to everything, and it's the quieter end, so you can
walk.
MGM is right across the street, which it's owned by MGM now.
Um, MGM is right, the MM store is right across.
Right, I was gonna say the MM store.
Everything, of course.
That's what I remember.
Yes, okay.
It is a pretty spectacular.
God, I want to go back to Vegas.
So bad.
Me too.
But not that kind of price.
I would never be able to gamble.
Right?
That's insane.
$500 for the city.
I remember when you used to give free rooms to like scout.
Yeah, I did.
Well, no, I didn't I got free rooms at Bally's.
Yeah.
Let me tell you what they do at the free rooms at Bally's.
Because I went to Vegas a lot.
Because it was cheaper to go to Vegas for five fucking days than
it was to go to Atlantic City overnight when I drove my
goddamn self.
It was cheaper to get in an airplane for five days.
And I'm not kidding about that.
No, um, so I would it was funny because I had um a night a day
off, which in the summer was not a thing back then for me.
But we had some one of our kids that worked for us forever had
graduated, so he came early.
And he gave us all an unexpected day off during the week.
So I had two days off in a row.
He gave us two days off in a row, and it was the day before
the day off, and my dad, who is the reason you love Vegas, yes,
and is a hundred percent the person that does this kind of
thing, uh-huh, said, What are you doing on your day off
tomorrow?
And I was like, I don't know.
I was thinking about going to Atlantic City, and he said, Why
would you go to Atlantic City?
Why don't you go to Vegas?
And I was like, You're crazy.
And then I was like, Where are you?
And so this was the days before really the internet was big.
So I called the airline and they had uh the last flight out of
Philadelphia that evening was like$110 for a round trip.
I called Bally's and they said you absolutely can have a free
room for two nights.
And I was like, All right.
So I came back and told my dad I have it will cost me$110 plus
whatever it costs to park in Philadelphia to go, but I need
to leave right now.
And he turned and looked at me and he said, See you in two
days.
And so I ran home, took my backpack, shoved jersey knit
dresses because they don't wrinkle, two of them, in my bag,
and I drove to Philadelphia, hopped on an airplane and went
to Vegas for two days, took the red eye home, had Tuesday and
Wednesday off, took the flight out Monday, took Tuesday and
Wednesday, took the red eye Wednesday night home, arrived in
Philadelphia at 5 a.m.
and drove and was at work before eight.
I love it.
I was tired, and I am not that child anymore.
Yeah, but you were young, so I was young and dumb, and I
gambled the whole time, and I only ate.
I would go to the buffet in the morning and shove food in my
bag.
SPEAKER_03: You taught me that.
SPEAKER_01: That's smart.
It's like eight dollar breakfast buffet.
Eight bucks fed you for the day.
SPEAKER_03: Well, when we went, we went to the dinner buffet,
and it was buy one, get one free.
Ah.
And then we would shove breakfast foods in our bag.
unknown: Smart.
It's smart.
SPEAKER_03: So I think it was like 25 bucks for two of us to
eat there, but we got four meals out of it.
So yeah.
SPEAKER_01: Those are the days.
You can't do that shit anymore.
Hell no.
Man.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I haven't done that.
I couldn't do that now if you paid me.
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
It takes me.
Oh gosh.
I don't even know.
I there's no way.
I mean, and I've been traveling more than ever, and I'm very
comfortable with it, but that's way too much.
Too fast.
SPEAKER_01: It's so weird too because I hate crowds.
Like I am not, I like to plan things out in advance.
But for whatever reason, Las Vegas, I am a whole different
human being when I go to Las Vegas.
I don't know what it is.
I don't know what makes I don't, I just love it so much.
I just adore Las Vegas and I don't know why.
It's like grown up Disney.
I'm a Disney, I'm a Disney adult.
Yeah.
And it's grown up Disney.
SPEAKER_03: It is.
It really is.
SPEAKER_01: Not anymore, though, I think.
Well, now I can't go because I don't have$500 to spend.
That's all my gambling money.
SPEAKER_03: Well, now the Disney part is on Fremont Street.
Like that place is wild now.
It is wild.
SPEAKER_01: I went.
I've been to Fremont Street a couple times.
I don't care for it.
Um because I like the old I mean I like the I like Binions and I
like all that and that kind of stuff.
I liked looking at the million dollars for the world poker.
But I just like the I don't know.
I don't know.
Yeah.
I just love Las Vegas so much.
SPEAKER_03: Freeman Street is fun for a night.
Yeah.
Like my sister and I did it for one night.
We got absolutely shitfaced.
Yeah.
We made so many friends.
Yeah.
Danced and sang because there's bands everywhere.
There's lights.
There's people flying over you on ziplines.
Yeah.
There's women with no clothes on.
Yeah.
There's men with no clothes on.
There's just everything.
Everybody.
Everything.
It's just wild.
It's very hot.
It is.
It's very, very, it was very fun for a night, but it's like a
great memory.
It's not like I'm like, man, I can't wait to go back to Fremont
Street.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
I don't think I I don't I would never need to go back to Fremont
Street.
Yeah.
And then every year I would go, I would go in December.
Well, when I was going quite a bit, I would go in October and
December.
But December, the week before Christmas, greatest time in Las
Vegas.
It's not hot.
It's actually chilly at night, but it's nice during the day.
There's literally nobody there.
So the rooms prepped in for the holidays.
The rooms are like 20 bucks.
They don't decorate for Christmas.
So there's no Christmas garbage.
SPEAKER_03: Non-denomination.
SPEAKER_01: There's no, I mean, there's a little bit here and
there, but it's not like the mall is a little bit decorated,
but even the mall wasn't like those were the days.
Those days are gone.
Those days are gone.
I have to tell myself that all the time.
I know, but they are.
I mean, I can't do that.
I can't do that shit no more.
I can't just hop in a plane for two days.
The maulings sparked debate about animal acts.
The USDA increased scrutiny.
Many venues phased out big cat performances.
White tiger breeding became controversial.
Zeus stopped breeding them.
Conservationists raised concerns.
Siegfried and Roy's legacy in animal entertainment is complex.
Siegfried and Roy never publicly defined their relationship in an
era when homosexuality was stigmatized.
They maintained privacy.
Their partnership challenged traditional notions of
masculinity and performance.
Their sexuality is now discussed openly in legacy conservation
conversations.
I mean hindsight now, you feel like how I mean.
Royce Cheetah Cheek Cheetah Chico once rode in a taxi.
That doesn't surprise me.
Their first tiger.
SPEAKER_03: He probably did it by himself.
Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_01: Their first tiger was Sabrina, named Sabrina.
Siegfried learned magic from a library book.
He never returned.
Chico escaped.
Oh, their tigers had their own swimming pool.
Little Bavaria had underground tunnels.
They appeared in a Muppet special.
SPEAKER_03: Doesn't surprise me.
SPEAKER_01: Michael Jackson wrote them a theme song.
SPEAKER_03: Oh well.
SPEAKER_01: They owned over 50 exotic animals.
SPEAKER_03: Oh, well, Michael Jackson loved exotic animals
too.
SPEAKER_01: That's probably where he got them.
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
SPEAKER_01: The Mirage Volcano was partly inspired by their
show.
Ooh.
Their animals had custom-made footwear.
Roy hand right now I'm jealous.
Roy Hand sewed some early costumes.
Their tigers all had stage names.
SPEAKER_03: Little Bavaria.
Oh, wait.
So did they have regular names and then they had stage names?
That's adorable.
I love it.
So that if somebody saw them in public, they wouldn't know their
name.
Okay, gotcha.
SPEAKER_01: The little well, I mean, if you're calling
Manticore and he comes, like he's coming at you.
Little Bavaria had a tiger kindergarten.
They filmed a never-released documentary.
Siegfried said magic gave him control over chaos.
Roy believed Animal Has Souls.
I also believe that.
Their show was the most expensive in Vegas history.
SPEAKER_03: Wow.
SPEAKER_01: They once had a lion living in their kitchen.
Their cats recognized them by scent.
Little Bavaria had a private beer hall.
They celebrated every animal's birthday.
They were the first magicians to headline a mega resort.
Their tigers had masseuses.
I still want the custom footwear.
They funded genetic research.
Roy spoke to animals in German.
Their costumes used Sawarski crystals.
They had a private chef for the animals.
Their tigers traveled in custom air-conditioned trailers.
Don't tigers just eat raw meat?
Probably.
Alright.
The owner, they owned a liger named Hercules.
A liger?
It's a tiger and a lion mix.
SPEAKER_03: Is that a real thing?
Yeah, actually, it is a real thing.
SPEAKER_01: No, I mean it is like a white tiger thing because
it is not actually.
They don't do it in the wild.
No, but they do.
I don't think they live in the same places.
So it's like artificial.
Artificial.
SPEAKER_03: Okay, gotcha.
SPEAKER_01: Their show used over 300 pyrotechnical cues.
Siegfried preferred silence backstage.
Roy preferred loud music backstage.
How you work that out, I'm right.
They lived in different homes.
Their cats had custom diets.
They run once performed for royalty in Monaco.
And when they did that, um, what's her name?
Princess Grace was there, and that's when one of the cheetah
uh Chico got out and was walking amongst the crowd.
Also, one time Chico got out at when Liz Taylor was there.
They had a private chapel at Little Bavaria.
Their tigers had heated floors.
Damn.
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
SPEAKER_01: They owned a private island retreat.
Their cats had personal veterinarians.
Siegfried collected rare orchids.
Roy collected antique swords.
Their show used 27 tons of scenery.
Wow.
They had a tiger named Magic.
Their cats had custom toys.
They had a private gym for animal conditioning.
Their tigers were trained to respond to whistles.
They owned a leopard named Apollo.
Their cats had their own holiday celebrations.
They kept handwritten journals about every animal.
Their tigers had custom grooming routines.
They rescued a lion cub from a circus.
Their cats had custom-built playgrounds.
They had a private costume vault.
Their tigers had their own music playlists.
They owned a rare white lion named Pasha.
SPEAKER_03: What?
That sounds like some bullshit to me.
SPEAKER_01: Their cats had custom-made beds.
They had a private meditation garden.
Their tigers were trained to recognize hand signals.
They once performed for the Pope.
Their cats had custom winter coats.
They had a cheetah named Spirit as long as well as Chico.
Their tigers had their own spa.
They had private screening rooms.
The cats had custom water fountains.
They owned a pat a panther named Shadow.
Which, of course, it's named Shadow.
The tigers had custom exercise routines.
They had a private art gallery.
They had custom collars, of course.
They owned another white lion named Majesty.
They had custom lighting in their habitat.
I have never seen a white lion.
Alright, this is blowing my mind.
They had a private wine cellar, of course.
Custom feeding.
Their tigers had enrichment programs.
They had a private library.
They had custom grooming brushes.
They owned a lion named Regal.
They had their own cooling systems.
They had a private music studio.
They were so wealthy.
They had a cheetah named Flash.
That's not very creative.
It's as good as Shadow.
They had climbing structures, a private photography studio.
They owned a Panther named Nightfall.
Come on, Roman.
They had a private greenhouse.
They owned a lion named Thunder.
They ended a leopard named Whisper.
They had a sculpture garden, custom hydration station.
They had a white tiger named Glacier.
Come on, Roy.
Their tigers had custom sunbathing areas, and they had a
private ballroom.
So that are my that is my short but sweet.
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that that was really, really fun.
I just don't know how people work with tigers.
I just don't like that.
It's absolutely terrible.
I have YouTube TV, and sometimes instead of a commercial, they'll
give you a moment of Zen.
Yes.
You've seen it.
Yes.
One of the newer moments of Zen is I think it's a lion,
actually.
I think it's a female lion.
But anyway, walking, and there's a little, I mean, it's hot and
deserty, so there's, but there's just little sticks, and she's
just kind of walking through and the sun's coming down.
It does not relax me.
It there's nothing relaxing about watching, and sometimes
she like low growls, and I'm just like, no, thank you.
SPEAKER_01: No, that's because you know what a small cat is
capable of.
SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
I mean, just look at me.
I'm coated in scratches.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, they will rip your throat out.
Yeah.
I mean, cats will eat you when you die.
Oh, yeah.
They will eat you.
Absolutely.
Dogs will just lay down and die next to you.
Yes.
Because they're good boys.
Cats are just waiting for you to die.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
That's why they sleep so close.
That's why they sleep on you.
They're trying to kill you.
Yeah.
Trying to suffocate you.
Yes, they do.
Mine does constantly.
SPEAKER_03: My one cat, she's super mad at me for bringing
Roxy into the house.
And she's just started coming like back around.
And um she was just biting the shit out of me last night.
Yeah.
I was like, Are you trying to eat my fingers?
Like, she's a biter anyway.
That's how she shows affection.
Yeah, I have both mine do that.
But hers was, but she's more kind of pissed off.
I think it was much more like she doesn't break the skin or
anything.
SPEAKER_01: Nodis bites me on the top of my head.
He's pretending to snuggle.
And he's like smelling my head.
And then I'm like, don't you do it, don't you do it?
And then he just like chomps right down on my head.
He's trying to eat my brain.
He's trying to tip of my nose.
Or he's trying to save me from a stroke.
I'm not sure which.
I'm pretty sure I do know which.
I don't think I'm having a stroke.
So yeah, that's Siegfried and Roy.
SPEAKER_03: That was super fun.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_01: I thought about it and I was like, you know what?
That's a fascinating.
Yeah.
That's pretty cool.
SPEAKER_03: And it was definitely a big part of our
childhood.
It really was.
It was something else.
Like, yeah.
Remember all the time.
SPEAKER_01: And when I went to Vegas, I was like, damn, I
should really see Siegfried.
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, they were on TV a lot.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
Fun stuff.
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
SPEAKER_01: Anyway, thanks for listening.
Now that I said it was short, but it wasn't.
Well, we did talk a lot.
That's true.
Um, thank you for listening.
Thank you.
You can like, share, rate, review, please.
Please, and thank you.
Um we have a website, likewhateverpodum.com.
We have you can find us anywhere that you find the podcasteries.
You can find us on all the socials at Like Whatever Pod.
unknown: Oh boy.
SPEAKER_01: You can send us an email about what you would name
a white tiger that isn't Glacier.
I mean, Manticore is a good name.
Manticore is a great name.
Yeah, but not Glacier.
Come on.
Two likewhateverpod at gmail.com or don't like whatever.
Whatever.
Bye.