How Nicole Got Her Groove Back

A tornado hits near Nicole’s house and she realizes two things fast: nature does not care about your plans, and neither does a dead phone battery. We start with that near miss, the chaos of hunkering down in a central room with five cats, and the weird aftershock of sirens and helicopters that makes your body stay tense long after the warning ends.

Then we pivot into something a lot of Gen X listeners are living through quietly: gray divorce. Nicole shares the moment her divorce decree arrives and what “closure” actually feels like when you’re not throwing a party, you’re just ready to be done. We dig into why divorce after 50 is rising, what changes when the kids are grown, and how financial stress, retirement planning, menopause shifts, evolving expectations, and plain old growing apart can push a decades-long marriage to its breaking point.

We also talk about what happens next: grief that can feel like a death, ambiguous loss, anxiety and mental health, and the practical need to build a support network that fits your real life. We get into boundaries, therapy, conscious uncoupling, and the underrated skill of knowing who to call when you need truth versus comfort.

If someone you love is navigating a late-life divorce, or you’re staring down one yourself, hit play, share it with a friend, and subscribe. And if the episode helps, leave us a review so more Gen X ears can find it.

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1 SPEAKER_01: Welcome to Like Whatever, a podcast for, by, and

about Gen X.

I'm Nicole, and this is my BFFF, Heather.

Hello.

So I had a near-death experience last week.

Yes.

Yes.

Heather talked me through it.

Uh so we had a tornado in Delaware, which is rare.

Very, very rare.

Um, and said tornado ripped the roof off of a couple of hotels

and ripped down telephone poles and trees and all kinds of fun

stuff.

And it was 0.4 miles from my house.

I kept giving her the updates on where it was.

She was because of course I didn't have my phone charged.

Um man, unprepared.

Of course, the power went out.

I was in a central room in my house with my five cats in the

dark.

unknown: Oh my god.

SPEAKER_01: And I could hear all the chaos outside.

I swear I felt that tornado, man.

I swear.

I even text Heather.

I was like, man, it sounds weird out there.

Like there's something not right.

SPEAKER_02: You did.

SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.

So yeah, so Heather was keeping me posted on uh and then like

later I'm getting all these like from my parents in Florida and

my son in California, and they're like, I just saw the

news.

I'm like, I just lived it.

I just I was here for it.

Yeah, so then Heather finally gave me the clear to leave the

bathroom.

I tried to leave earlier than I was going than I did, but she

said, You're still in in a warning, so I stayed.

And then I came out and I didn't have any power and it was

getting dark, and I don't have any way to light my house

because I just moved and I don't really have a bunch of candles.

I had like one candle and two votives.

SPEAKER_02: So a knucklehead doesn't even have a car charger

for her phone.

Because I said, Why don't you go sit in the car?

And I went, I don't have a I'm like, what?

SPEAKER_01: I was all kinds of unprepared.

All kinds.

I can't loop like that.

I'm just very lucky that all of my cats love me and trust me.

And when it came time to scoop them up, nobody gave me any

trouble except Storm, of course.

She's my alpha cat.

And she went and hid under a bed, and so I'm leaning down

under it, and I'm like, we're gonna fucking die if you don't

come out.

She's just looking at me.

She eventually came out.

I think she knew something was wrong and she was scared, but

she eventually came.

So we survived, but yeah, it was pretty nuts.

And then all night, sirens and horns, and next day, all

helicopters, and it was yeah, it was a pretty big deal.

It was, it made national news and everything.

So if y'all saw on the news, Delaware had a um tornado, and

you saw the damage, that was right by my house.

SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.

We just don't get that kind of wet.

We get we get warnings, and not warnings, we get watches where

it could there's the potential for the and we get water spouts

a lot.

We do get water spouts a lot, but right where she lives is a

weird spot where there's no water around all the way, and it

I don't know why through central Delaware, right in downtown

capital of the state.

SPEAKER_01: Like it was crazy, it was, and she was updating me,

and it was coming down the road right headed for direct hit for

my house between the road it was traveling and the water, like

should have passed over me.

Luckily, it skipped over a little bit, but that road it was

coming down, I've driven down it.

There is stuff down everywhere, it is crazy.

SPEAKER_02: They said it was an EF1.

SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, which I know to some that's a wimpy one,

but when you live where you don't get them, and I have

always been felt very strongly that I could not live somewhere

where they have tornadoes.

Yeah, and now it's proven I couldn't do that all the time.

No, it was very stressful.

SPEAKER_02: Oh, it is stressful, and I wasn't even in it, but we

did have tornado warnings down my way later.

Um, not exactly, but my where my aunt lives, they had then that

one never hit the ground, but but she was hunkered down.

Yeah, she was also in the I texted her and she said she was

in a bathroom.

And I was like, okay.

SPEAKER_01: Well it's nice to know when we have tornadoes, we

have you to check up on all of us.

That's right.

I am here.

SPEAKER_02: Yes, you are, and I'm a weather nerd.

You are so I like to follow it.

Yes, yes and I was following them all.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, that's exciting.

We also just got some sad news before we We did, right before

we came on.

Yeah, just just brand spanking new that Miss Dolly Parton has

passed.

Unbelievable.

It really is unbelievable.

Very sad.

She was only 80.

I know.

Her husband did just die last year, though, so I wonder.

Yeah, I think that happened too.

They have not said what, but I assume it was she had been

battling some illness, and her husband just died last year.

I would imagine that whatever illness she had had prior to him

passing.

SPEAKER_01: Yeah, because they were married, I think, 59 years

ago.

Yeah.

So R.I.P.

Dolly.

Yeah, thank you.

SPEAKER_02: How old am I?

Two?

53, 54.

unknown: Dang.

SPEAKER_02: Oh no.

And she hasn't killed him.

That's crazy.

I I don't know.

Actually, I don't know that because she says he's out on the

bike right now.

SPEAKER_01: But his van's in the yard.

Oh.

She messed that story up already.

He said he's on the bike.

I don't know.

That's iffy.

SPEAKER_02: Uh what else?

Oh, it's mail count, so I'm stressed out.

Ugh.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You and this mail count.

I fucking hate it every six months.

Yep.

So my pay will change in another month.

It's the most ridiculous.

Yeah, and you don't know if it'll go up or down.

Nope, I don't know if it'll go up or down.

I do not know.

That's crazy.

Fingers crossed that it will not go down.

Yeah.

Um, hoping that it goes up a little.

But who knows?

Hard to say.

Um, actually now they've made it.

This is this is even more fun.

But actually, now our pay change is monthly.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yep, yep, yep.

Yep.

Supposed to only be if you have growth, but they are now

adjusting, I think everybody's up or down once a month.

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: That is the wildest thing I've ever heard.

SPEAKER_02: It's the most it's scary.

It is.

How are people supposed to live like that?

Well, and it's because it's not just like small, like, oh,

you're gonna get fifty dollars less a paycheck.

Um one of the carriers has lost six thousand a year.

Damn.

Yeah, I lost ten.

Um and this last time, last six months ago, I lost I think it

was like four.

Yeah.

So hopefully I'll good news is is I have to work my days off

from now until perpetuity because we have no help.

All of our helpers have quit.

So I get paid mad money to work my day off.

But on the other side of it, I had become a little bit

accustomed to having two days off a week.

But it's fine.

It's fine, everything's fine.

As long as you don't have a hole in your sock.

For real.

So we discussed this earlier.

Today, uh, my work bestie was irrationally angry at the end of

his little rant.

He said, And I have a hole in my sock.

And I was like, that is probably what will do it because

yesterday I too had a hole in my sock that made me irrationally

angry.

SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and then I had to deal with um someone in my

work.

I won't say employee, client, whatever it is, but they were

very cranky today at me.

So Heather assumes they had a hole in their sock too.

SPEAKER_02: I know, you know what?

From now on, if like somebody is screaming and yelling, I'm gonna

be like, Do you have a hole in your sock?

That's gonna be that's gonna look that'll diffuse the whole,

like because if somebody said that to me, I'd be like, I don't

know.

SPEAKER_01: Well, that's that wins both ways, because if they

do, they're gonna be like, Oh my god, yes, I do.

And then you can talk about that.

Or they're gonna be like you said, like, uh uh uh what?

SPEAKER_02: It's gonna take it's gonna take their anger down a

second.

SPEAKER_01: Give them something else to think about.

You're right.

You don't want to bring anybody's anger down, you want

to fight.

SPEAKER_02: Yeah, but then that might make you fight.

Be like, yeah, let's go.

And I'll be like, I get it.

Let's I I had a hole in my sock, also.

It's very infuriating, especially when it's in the

middle of the day and there's zero things you can do about it,

and you have to walk everywhere, and it's just getting worse by

the second, and you're just like, I swear to god, I'm gonna

lose my shit right here.

I did, and then I got the scratch on my nose.

Oh, yeah, the bird yesterday.

I'm surprised I don't have one from my kitten.

Yeah, she my bird took off and smacked me in the face and also

made me irrationally angry.

I was like, oh so everyone went into their perspective or into

their respective cages, and I went into my bed, which is also

my cage.

That's it.

Today is over.

6 30.

I don't care.

Today's over.

There was another reason I was angry.

Like I had to go inside.

This fucking kid outside.

I live in an amusement park, right?

Okay, they're go-karts.

They're not exciting go-karts, they just go in a little circle.

It's not even that long, it's not even that cool.

But this dad and the kid were screaming at the top of like

like they were on the greatest roller coaster to ever exist.

Like that.

And I was like, I'm um, I I don't know.

I don't know, sir.

Stop.

It's not that's not that fun.

I promise you, it's not.

I don't care if you have never been on a go-kart before.

Yeah, that is not that much fun.

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: So yeah.

Yeah, that's it.

Lots of things to irritate you this week.

All right.

Well, before we get into it, like, share, rate, review.

Find us where you listen to podcasts.

Indeed.

Follow us on all the socials at like whatever pod.

Uh, we have a website like whateverpod.com.

We sure do.

And we have an email, like whateverpod at gmail.com.

Let's fuck around and find out about gray divorce.

SPEAKER_02: I'm here for it.

I saw this and it made me talkle.

SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so full disclosure.

Um, I got my divorce decree in the mail yesterday, so I am

officially legally divorced.

Um not sad or happy, just done.

Right.

Um, does feel like a closure a bit?

Yeah.

Um, I am going back to my maiden name, so now I have to deal with

the Social Security Office and the DMV.

And my passport and literally everything that my name is on

anywhere.

Too much nonsense.

Yeah, it's all right.

It'll be worth it.

I want my dad's name back.

Yeah.

I've wanted that name for it.

SPEAKER_02: Well, and it sucks that you can't just change it to

something whatever you want.

I know.

Like I just want to be right.

My own name.

I want to make my own name now.

Yeah, I know.

You can't do that.

SPEAKER_01: But they're not going to charge me anything to

change it.

SPEAKER_02: No, because you're going back to your maiden name.

SPEAKER_01: And it's in the documentation that I'm legally

my maiden name again.

unknown: Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: Which is pretty fun.

SPEAKER_02: I was saying, I think you should when I got

married, I should have changed my name to what I wanted to

change my name to.

Because you could change it to anything when you got married.

I would have put the eight in my name.

Because nobody would have noticed it was just slung slung

it in there on the marriage certificate.

SPEAKER_01: But I didn't.

Yeah.

I know I thought about dropping my middle name too, but we'll

think about that later.

All right.

So I would if I were you.

Another thing my therapist thinks is really odd.

SPEAKER_02: I don't I don't see that.

We won't get into it, but I could see why you would want

that.

Yeah.

Don't that.

SPEAKER_01: Yeah.

All right.

So um my resources this week were verywhelmind.com and the

divorceplanner.net.

All right.

So grade divorce refers to the increasing trend of divorce

among couples over age 50, often following long-term marriages.

Uh, factors such as emptiness syndrome, financial

disagreements, and evolving personal priorities contribute

to this phenomenon.

Understanding these reasons can help older adults navigate the

complex emotional and financial impacts of divorce at this stage

in life.

Uh, Bill and Melinda Gates, Hugh Jackman and Deborah Lee Jackman,

Rhea Perlman and Danny DeVito.

What do these couples have in common?

They all divorced after decades-long marriages.

There is a growing trend of older couples deciding to end

their marriages.

Research supports this.

A 2021 report by the U.S.

Census Bureau found that more couples over the age of 65 are

divorcing after being married for many years.

So, why are older couples, after spending nearly half their lives

together, ending their relationship?

Why oh, why?

SPEAKER_02: You know why?

Holes in socks.

SPEAKER_01: Possibly.

Uh, this phenomenon, known as gray divorce, helps explain the

rising number of single-person households in the U.S.

Gray divorce is on the rise, and the reasons behind it are

complex and varied.

Statistics suggest that baby boomers are more prone to

divorce, and factors like emptiness syndrome, shifting

priorities, financial problems, and reduced stigma surrounding

divorce can all play a role.

Divorcing after age 50 is becoming more common, and this

can potentially affect a person's well-being.

I know I did mine for the past year.

Happy to be coming out the other end of that one.

Um, gray divorce is often defined as divorce that occurs

after the age of 50 following a long-term marriage.

These individuals have often been married for many years or

decades, but ultimately decide to split during the later years

of their lives.

So my ex and I were married 17 years.

Yes.

So it was long.

Yes.

Um a lot of it was really great, and it wasn't.

Um, why are so many older couples getting divorced?

Whereas younger couples divorce because of incompatible

parenting styles or difficult relatives, older divorcees are

more likely to split due to empty death syndrome,

infidelity, and financial differences.

Instead of fighting over custody of the kids, elderly couples are

more likely to argue over pension plans and retirement

savings.

Divorce can take a massive financial toll, and older adults

who are closer to retirement age or already retired have less

time to recover.

I will also say financial had a role in my divorce as well.

I have a theory.

SPEAKER_02: I think because I mean, this is not really your

case, but I think for some people, when they marry their

spouse and then they have children, and then they spend

18, 25 years raising children, and I told my sister this one,

not that there's no chance of that marriage ever falling apart

because no two people have ever been more compatible ever than

the two of them.

SPEAKER_01: It's impossible.

Um but that doesn't mean they can't go through struggles.

SPEAKER_02: I always told her that you need to go on dates no

matter what, even if it's once every three months, what because

and you're not allowed to talk about your kids, you're not

allowed to talk about work, you have to talk about something

other.

They do a good I don't I don't think they didn't really do

that.

SPEAKER_01: They they kind of did, but they kind of ride the

bike together, yes, stuff like that.

SPEAKER_02: Because 20 years of raising kids, you become

different people.

Yes.

And if you don't keep checking in with each other, yes, and you

know, when you come out the other end, you might not like

the other person because you didn't you haven't seen them in

25 years, you know what I mean?

Like Right.

SPEAKER_01: Yeah, like emptiness syndrome was different for me

because um I this is my second divorce.

I div divorced my first husband after 14 years uh with three

small children.

Um, but we had split custody.

So I was already used to not having them half the time.

So them leaving wasn't quite the same, I think, for me as it

would be for someone who was still with the person that they

had the kids with.

Right.

It's funny, I was um away for work recently, and one of the

ladies that I was out there with, we were talking, and she's

going through that right now.

Um her two oldest are I think already out, and the youngest is

just going to college first year.

SPEAKER_03: Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: And she legit was stressed.

Like, I don't know what I'm supposed to do with myself.

I don't know how to spend my time.

And she's like, I would like to do this or do this.

And I'm like, oh, get your husband to do it.

And she's like, You're right.

But he's like uh he's a Sussex County guy, you know, I was pick

up.

He's he's not fancier, wants to do entertaining things.

So it worries me, you know, for her.

Like I think that they can find yeah, that's what I'm saying.

Like, they're not the same people that no, I mean he might

be the same person when they as when they got married, but she's

not right, because he was kind of the breadwinner, although she

works as well, but I think he makes considerably more, and she

was like super mom.

Like she made advent calendars for her kids every Christmas,

even she still does, like makes them.

Wow, that's that's crazy.

Yeah, and she sends like care packages to her kids, and

they're like, Mom, you're so embarrassing because shit flies

out of it and sparkles and all that stuff.

So she's like that mom, right?

So for her to lose, she's really losing a lot of her identity

having her children grow up.

SPEAKER_02: My luckily, I don't think that's gonna be a problem

for my sister.

SPEAKER_01: They've been pretty, uh I don't want to say hands off

on their kids, but their kids are pretty independent,

independent, and I also, especially the oldest one, he's

never gonna be able to do it.

Never leaving his mom, no, he'll probably build a house on their

property.

SPEAKER_02: He probably will.

He still lives there, which is fine.

SPEAKER_01: He's at an age where it's still perfectly.

SPEAKER_02: He was so cute.

I kind of just he was just darling.

Yes, he's 21.

And you've all met my sister.

And uh she had a little health issue last week and she had to

have emergency surgery.

And I went over after she got out of the hospital, and he came

out and he is he's always been a little old man.

Yes, like always, yes.

He never called it's not a bathing suit, it's swimming

trunks, and he's always been the most laid-back kid, and just

like nothing like kids would make fun of him, and he'd be

like, I don't care.

He just he's a laid-back guy, like nothing really a lot like

his dad.

Very much like his dad.

Yes, and he came out and he helped her out of the van and he

was like holding her arm and trying to get her in the house,

and he was just so damn cute.

And I said, I was like, damn, he's such a cute little, he's

like a whole ass man.

SPEAKER_01: Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: And she's like, I know.

SPEAKER_01: I know when you told me that story, I was like, in my

head, I because I don't see them much anymore since they're not

little kids.

Um, I'm picturing this little boy trying to help his mommy out

of the car.

Like, I'm not my brain can't picture this a grown adult man.

It's weird.

It is.

SPEAKER_02: I mean, it looks just like his dad, but he's a

little bit on the he's a big he's a big kid.

Yeah.

And uh yeah, it's just it's just crazy.

But they were pretty hand well.

SPEAKER_01: Jess and and her husband still spend spend a lot

of time together.

Yes.

It's not like they have two separate lives off doing two

separate things, like like the couple I spoke of earlier.

I think they are a great couple and and I think they love each

other, but it sounds like they have very separate things that

they do.

SPEAKER_02: So yeah, I think I mean I I think that's just I and

I used to tell her when she was well way back, look, you're

because when you come out of this, you know, in 25 years, you

want to be able to set to still be still like the person that

you're married to.

Exactly.

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01: You both have to grow together, and if you don't

keep checking in with each other, and liking someone is so

important, like everybody talks about love.

Yeah, and I did used to always say, I love you and I like you

because I did.

And then the liking went away.

Yeah.

Um, that was part of the problem.

So, yeah, you you have to like each other.

Yeah, like you have to be friends to be married, you have

to.

Yes.

So it Anyway, all right, on to grade divorce.

Right.

One twenty twenty two study sh uh looking at historical trends

in grade divorce found that divorce rates among middle-aged

and older adults have increased since 1970.

Gray divorce was relatively uncommon in the 70s and grew

only modestly in the 90s.

SPEAKER_02: Well, mostly because you couldn't have a checking

account if you're a woman.

Yes, exactly.

Or credit card or anything alone.

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: Yeah.

Barely a job.

Yeah.

Um, in 1990, 8.7% of marriages among people over 50 ended in

divorce.

By 2019, that number had grown to 36%.

SPEAKER_02: You know what else I think too maybe helped the

situation?

Uh a lot of these older boomers they're whose husbands were

older when they went to war.

Or I guess they didn't go.

Right.

Or that middle, that mid-area, I guess Korea, into Vietnam, that

time, they were all older.

And I think they lost their husbands at a younger age

because of Agent Orange and because of the the shit they

went through over there.

I think a lot of them lost.

And so there was a lot of women who were widowed.

And I also say that, I mean, you look at the Golden Girls, and

you know, you watch all these shows, and they were having the

time of their fucking life.

SPEAKER_01: That is also becoming a thing.

I have been seeing that recently, and actually, just

today, I was looking through um the news on my laptop at home

when I was supposed to be working.

But anyway, um, and it popped up about this specific group of

ladies, and it's like five or six of them, they live together,

and they're all finding this golden girl's lifestyle because

they like being with their girlfriends.

You split the bills up, however, many people are in the house.

Like, yeah, that's really becoming a thing.

SPEAKER_02: And I think that's what you know, people saw that

younger saw that these women are like having, I mean, they're

everybody knows women live longer than men anyway.

So they outlived their husbands and they found these groups.

The red hat, I mean, the red hats says it all.

I've always wanted to be a member of the Red Hat system.

Not as many.

SPEAKER_01: I know.

Um I used to see them in the casino all the time when I first

started working there, but I think I think it's a dying

breed.

SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think younger women saw that and were

like, when they got to that age and their husband was still

alive, or you know, they looked at him and they were like, you

know, I don't I want to go to Red Hat, and and you don't, and

I don't I don't wanna I think I think that is a lot of it too.

SPEAKER_01: I think I don't want to sit here and watch the same

TV shows every night.

I want to go do shit and I wanna, you know, have friends

and yeah and social clubs.

SPEAKER_02: I think you know, it got made that not made, but it

was it was shown that it was okay.

Like that's that's fine.

And prior to that it wasn't, you know, these women sat around

wearing black veils until they died.

SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.

Exactly.

SPEAKER_02: June Cleaver would have never gone out with her

golden credit girlfriend.

SPEAKER_01: Absolutely not.

That would not have been allowed, no.

Um the researchers also noted that people over the age of 65

are the only age group with growing divorce rates.

In contrast, the divorce rate among adults in their 20s and

30s has actually declined in recent years, and I can tell you

why people aren't getting married anymore.

SPEAKER_02: And and another thing, I mean, also if you have

to look, you look at it this way.

How many of those that were divorced were in lavender

marriages?

SPEAKER_01: Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: That are that were like, I don't have to that are

now allowed to live their truth.

Yes, you know, and I think that's a lot of it too.

SPEAKER_01: Whereas younger people get to live their truth

and don't have to get married, or if you know Yep, yep, or find

a companion that's willing to yeah, exactly.

One explanation for growing gray divorce rates is that baby

boomers, adults born between 1946 and 1964, make up the bulk

of the age group over 50 in this generation, and this generation

is more likely to divorce than older and younger generations.

Boomers were more likely to divorce during their younger

adult years, and their divorce rates have also continued to

rise as they age.

Other, oh, go ahead.

SPEAKER_02: That's a good point, too.

A lot of them got divorced in the 80s and and 90s, and were

like, okay, and then now they're like, Yeah, I'm not doing that

again.

Like, I got um I can do it just as easily now as I did that.

Because it was less stigmatized in the 80s and 90s.

SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes, definitely.

Well, women were finding their voice but more, so I think then

we still have a long way to go.

But um, other factors that increase the risk for gray

divorce include the number of previous marriages and the

number of years a person has been married.

Remarriages are less likely to last.

That would have been good to know.

Um, and people who have been married nine years or less are

more likely to divorce, which I don't fall into that for either

one.

No, lucky I drug it out way longer than that.

While length of marriage is a risk factor for gray divorce,

many couples who split after the age of 50 have been in marriages

lasting decades.

According to statistics by the Pugh Research Center, 34% of

gray divorces are between couples married for at least 30

years, and 12% are between couples married 40 years or

longer.

Wow.

That would be wild.

SPEAKER_02: Like that seemed like that, just let them die at

that point.

Like, just wait on it.

Yeah, wait that one out.

Just make a money to get a divorce and all that when you're

just gonna wait for it.

SPEAKER_01: Just make an agreement to just live in the

same house.

SPEAKER_02: Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: And just go on about your own business.

Yep.

Uh so why are so many couples opting to split after weathering

many of the challenges they've faced earlier in their

relationship?

The reasons why a long-term couple opts for divorce vary

from one situation to the next.

Some common factors that appear to play a major role, include,

again, the emptiness syndrome.

I'm not going to go through that one again.

Okay, we did that on that one.

Uh, financial issues.

Arguments over money can become more pronounced as couples near

retirement age.

It becomes harder to find common ground and maintain the peace as

people contemplate leaving the workforce.

Financial infidelity, such as hiding bills, large purchases,

debts, or secret bank accounts, can also affect the stability of

a long-term marriage.

Retirement plans may hang in the balance when a couple's

financial behavior and goals are out of sync.

Ending the relationship may sometimes seem like the only way

to resolve such differences.

Yeah, and I feel like I hear all the time about people that have

secret bank accounts and shit.

Like, and if you feel that way too, just leave.

Just leave that.

Yeah.

If you're preparing yourself for an out, you don't want to be

there.

So go.

SPEAKER_02: Just take the out.

SPEAKER_01: Yep.

Another factor is infidelity.

Um, cheating is one of the most common reasons for divorce at

any age, including among older couples.

Infidelity is a bitter betrayal after spending a lifetime

building shared memories with another person.

Watching it crumble due to unfaithfulness can make it too

difficult to repair the trust and intimacy a couple once

shared.

And my ex-husband did not cheat on me.

unknown: No.

SPEAKER_01: But I have always said that I know I couldn't

stay.

Like I know I couldn't forget.

SPEAKER_02: Yeah.

That's forgiving and forgetting are two different things.

SPEAKER_01: Well, I don't even believe in forgiveness anymore.

My therapist and I have gone through that, but that's for

another day.

That's another show.

Yeah.

Oh, forgiveness is a concept made up by Christianity.

SPEAKER_02: I think um Yeah, I agree.

Um I think a lot of it, I don't know if you're gonna get into

this, but is menopause.

SPEAKER_01: I think I don't actually think that was one of

the things I wanted.

SPEAKER_02: I think before Gen X started hitting that menopause,

you just went through it, your wife was a bear for a few years,

and you just, you know, she hit and then you just move past it.

And I think now because we are who we are, and we're like, what

the actual fuck is this shit?

And like we want to talk about it and we want to be like, what

is happening?

I I don't, you know, as as vocal as we are about it.

Yeah, and I think a lot I think women's desire goes down when

they hit the state menopause, and you you become a different

person yourself.

Just absolutely just know in your own soul it's not just a

hole in your sock that is the problem.

That's that's the tip of the iceberg.

SPEAKER_01: But I also think on the flip side of that, as we hit

menopause, we and for Gen X, this is already embedded in us,

but we just don't give a fuck anymore.

Yeah.

Well, and that, and you know And that's a good thing, I think,

when you can let go of all that dumb crap that I think you know,

I just thought it just occurred to me to me now.

SPEAKER_02: I think also prior to our generation hitting

menopause, menopause meant an end to something.

Like you couldn't have children anymore.

Your days of having children were over.

Right and blah, blah, blah.

And I think now we see it as more of a passage, rate of

passage.

Well, a rite of passage, and oh, time is ticking.

Like we only have X amount of we're on the downside of the

hill.

That is true.

We're coming back down, and we don't have a whole lot of time

left.

Especially for those of us who did not expect to make it this

long.

SPEAKER_01: I have to honestly say, um, I'm not gonna go into

detail, but that was definitely a factor in me leaving my

marriage.

Um, I did think, is this how I want to grow old?

This is how I want to do I want to hit 80 years old and regret

my life because I just stayed and tolerated crumbs for before

I could leave and live the life I want to live.

SPEAKER_02: And and I think that's a lot of it is as you get

to this age and you're like, what the fuck am I doing?

SPEAKER_01: And that's it, yeah.

I'm like, I might have a good 30 years left in me.

SPEAKER_02: You might you know I say all the time that this dog

that I have now is my last dog because I don't have it in me.

And he's 11 and his days are ticking down too.

And I know that I don't have it in me for another 12 to 15

years.

For and I mean I got a bird, so I don't know how they live.

SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but you don't take the bird out.

SPEAKER_02: That's true.

In the rain, um, in the cold.

And yeah, and I think that that might be some of it too.

Like we're everybody, it's not just the biologic your

biological clock stopped and it switched over to an hourglass,

and you're like, oh.

That was really great analogy.

Thank you.

You should put that on a t-shirt.

SPEAKER_01: Thank you.

Yeah, I'm not sure if we get into I can't remember if we get

into mental health.

The first part of this is just in general about um I know, I

need derailing it.

No, no, I love the conversation.

And then the latter part of it is more Gen X specific.

Okay.

Um, so maybe it'll be in there.

SPEAKER_02: All right, I'll keep it to a minimum.

SPEAKER_01: No, I want you to talk.

God damn it.

Yeah.

Um, all right, so another challenge is health problems.

Um, health challenges like a serious chronic condition can m

majorly strain a relationship.

Some couples find that they're unable to handle health issues

that emerge as they age.

Notably, research indicates that there is a gender disparity in

how health problems affect couples.

I bet you can't guess which one leaves more.

Studies reported a higher divorce risk if the wife

develops a chronic illness, whereas men who become disabled

or ill do not face the same level of risk.

Get out.

And on the flip side of that, because of the way women, I

mean, women or men are just programmed differently.

Women feel more of an obligation.

Well, shit, now I gotta stay.

SPEAKER_03: Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: Because I'm gonna look like an asshole if I don't

stay and take care of him, and who's gonna take care of him?

As to where guys are like, peace.

You got kids, that's their problem.

SPEAKER_02: That's why you had kids.

That's always my issue.

Like, I never ever regret a day in my life not having children

until I start thinking about like what is gonna happen to me

when I get old.

Yeah.

Like I don't have anybody.

We'll just make my kids take care of you.

Okay.

You think they will?

Calen will.

SPEAKER_01: Oh, Caitlyn will for sure.

She'll grumble.

Yeah.

Yeah.

All right.

Another one is growing apart.

This was also something that happened to my marriage.

One of the most significant causes of great divorce is the

changes people experience as they age.

Growing apart is the most frequently cited reason for

divorce at any age.

For older adults specifically, aging represents a big change,

and people's priorities, interests, and needs may shift

as they grow older.

Some couples might grow closer during this time, but others

might find their values and priorities too different,

leading some couples to choose separate paths.

Makes sense.

Yep.

I wanted to retire.

That was a big wasn't gonna happen if I stayed so.

Uh changing expectations.

Our expectations for what we consider a healthy, satisfying

marriage have also changed over time.

True again.

Today, couples are more likely to place a greater emphasis on

how the relationship makes them feel, including whether it

contributes to their overall happiness and fulfillment.

When a relationship or a person's needs shift, it may no

longer meet those criteria, which is why people may opt to

end things.

SPEAKER_02: That makes sense too.

Like your mental health is more of a thing.

Like you need your happiness, is my I don't believe in happiness,

so I know.

SPEAKER_01: And that's fine.

And I don't know, I don't know what my real definition of

happiness is, but I want to feel content, maybe is a better word,

and at peace, yeah, and comfortable in like my own skin.

Like I'm comfortable in my own skin, but comfortable in the way

my life is going.

Like that's a big factor for me because I've spent a lot of my

life being very unhappy.

Yes.

And faking it.

Yeah.

Till I make it.

SPEAKER_02: Yeah.

I I I I say I don't believe I don't, I don't actually believe

in happiness.

I know that's a weird thing to say, mostly because I'm a

depressed human being, and I it's just not a possible.

SPEAKER_01: Well, no, and there are arguments for that.

Like, when do you reach happiness?

Like, do you get that?

And all right, I have this thing now.

Am I happy?

Oh no, no, I want that happy.

SPEAKER_02: It's something that you is a is a thing that you

chase forever.

And that is why I say I don't believe in happiness, because I

think it's unattainable.

And to say I just want to be happy, yeah, well, you're never

gonna get there because there's always gonna be something that

makes it it's just an unattainable goal.

Like I've always said people with unrealistic expectations of

what life actually is, yes, like it's not all sunshine and roses,

like you you you are not gonna be happy.

It's rarely sunshine and roses, you're not gonna have good time

all the time.

Yes.

Do you want it to be just less miserable than it is?

Of course.

Yes, yes, but you have to find where it it's much like anything

else, you have to find where your base is.

Like what I always say with like mental health medication, what

are you willing to trade?

You know, are you willing to trade stomach issues and you

know, makes you sleepy or you know, whatever, for not feeling

like you're about to slit your wrists every other day.

Yes, yes.

So it's about what you're willing to trade.

So when you think about being happy, what are you willing to

trade?

What are you willing to accept?

SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, finding like some kind of peace.

I've had extremely high anxiety and PTSD my whole life, and

that's why I've been doing therapy so hard.

Right.

Because I want to be at a point where I don't feel like that all

the time.

And I am starting to get to that point.

Like, I think it's realistic.

And I actually asked my therapist once.

I was like, So am I just gonna have anxiety forever?

Like, will medicine and therapy work this out?

And she was like, Well, I always like to say, like, so she puts

her hand up by her forehead up close that way, and she's like,

So this is where you max out, and then puts her other hand

like an inch below that one, and then when something happens,

boom, you hit max immediately, like there's no room.

So we want to get it so that I'm like a foot below that, right?

So when things happen, I can come up, but not max out and and

regulate myself back down, and so that makes sense to me.

I can understand that and I can accept that.

SPEAKER_02: As someone who has battled anxiety for 52 years

now, it is at some point you do have to be like, all right, yes,

I'm anxious.

And I feel like once you get a hold of it and figure out how to

deal with it, that's because I don't feel as anxious as I used

to.

Yes.

I don't like, I mean, I still don't want to make phone calls.

Like I'm it's the worst feeling, and I don't want to do that.

Thank God for technology and chat bots and stuff like that,

because no, I don't want to make a phone call.

Um, but I don't throw up now every time I go to the doctor.

SPEAKER_03: Right.

SPEAKER_02: So that's good news.

We're getting somewhere now, and I don't feel like I'm going to,

like I don't feel that anxiety anymore.

I have also been medicated for quite some time now.

So I don't know if that's you know, just dulled it out of me

or what, but yeah.

SPEAKER_01: Um, all right, societal changes.

So um societal changes have also influenced this relationship

upheaval.

Older adults were often raised with the expectation that they

would marry, have children, and grow old together.

Today, many now recognize that there is no one size fits all

path to a happy life, and women have more freedom and financial

independence to past generations.

The majority of all divorces are initiated by, wait, the majority

of all divorces are initiated by women, and this is true for gray

divorce as well, uh, says Kate Engler, a licensed couples and

sex therapist at Three Points Relationships.

In the last 50 years, women have gained greater economic

independence and have held and maintained their own careers.

This has created more options for women on many fronts,

including deciding to divorce.

As a result, people are less likely to stay in marriages that

don't meet their needs, even if it means calling it quits after

spending decades together.

Engler notes that other factors such as increased life

expectancy have also played a part.

With increased life expectancy, many people, particularly women,

look down the road at what remains of their life so smart

and think, why would I want to spend these years in a bad

marriage?

I still have a life to live and I want to be happy.

SPEAKER_02: Yeah.

I should, I should.

Yep.

You should be a therapist.

I should have said that.

SPEAKER_01: Uh one study found that attitudes towards divorce

have become more supportive among people over the age of 50.

Reduced stigma around the idea of divorce may also lead people

to choose to leave rather than stay in an unhappy and

unsatisfying relationship.

And the funny thing is, my therapist has asked me

periodically over the past year if I feel any like um guilt, you

know, uh like the stigma part of it.

Right.

That was never an issue for me.

I don't give a shit what people think.

I know.

Because for the people on the outside who were who are

critical of the fact that you're getting a divorce, there are

probably people you don't hang out with and that you know very

well.

SPEAKER_03: Like true story.

SPEAKER_01: And the people that I'm close to when they found out

were like, okay, good.

Like they're seeing the actual, like, yes, this did need to

happen, as opposed to all the naysayers on the outside.

Um, financial considerations in grade divorce.

It's important to note that divorce can have serious

financial consequences for couples that end their marriages

later in life.

Grey divorce can be financially devastating to both parties.

It was just one on point, anyway.

Um, but often people are saving for a joint retirement, and this

will likely be split with divorce, leaving people with far

less income than they anticipated.

While divorce has economic impacts at any age, some

considerations that are particularly significant for

middle-aged and older adults include dividing assets,

retirement savings, healthcare costs, housing and legal

expenses, evidence that a late-life divorce has a major

effect on an individual's financial situation and

well-being.

For example, research has shown that gray divorces have get

great divorcees have less financial security than their

married or widowed peers.

This risk is particularly high for gray divorced women as they

receive lower social security benefits and 25% of them

experience poverty.

That lowers social security benefit.

Like, what the fuck?

Yeah.

I just looked at mine.

Yeah, me too.

SPEAKER_02: I'm pretty excited.

Yeah.

I've been working since I was fucking 12.

So, like with a full but with an actual paycheck.

So I've been paying into Social Security since I was 12.

SPEAKER_01: Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: Like, not just babysitting money.

I've actually been paying into so and I looked at it and I was

like, I could probably live off that plus my pension.

Yeah.

Plus whatever retirement.

Like I've been freaking out recently because I've had to dip

into my retirement a couple of times to pay to get back onto

even ground.

And uh I've been freaking out a little bit about it.

But then I saw that and I was like, it's more than I'm doing

now.

So can I read it?

Retire and like no, I just I can't, but I'm just saying,

like, I think it was 70.

I think if I retire at 60, I think it was 67.

It's a significant amount of money, I thought.

And I was like, well, I could plus with a pension, yeah.

Probably be doing all right.

SPEAKER_01: Yeah.

Way better than I am now.

I'll hit 25 years with the state the same year I turned 67.

So I'll have to do that.

Hopefully, I don't have to do that.

I don't have to do 25.

I don't have to.

I think 25 is the one where if you hit it every year after that

doesn't really make a difference.

Right.

Like 25 is like the one you want to try to get to, but it's only

a percent or so more if you go.

SPEAKER_02: Right.

I just have to have 10.

Okay.

Good.

SPEAKER_01: Because you started late.

SPEAKER_02: Yes.

Which yes, I did.

Well, which would be before 67.

So yeah, definitely.

Probably gonna try.

I'm gonna shoot for retirement at 67.

Ooh.

I won't.

I don't know.

I don't think I'm gonna I'm gonna be good at retirement.

I cannot read it.

I think I can, but then I can't.

I don't know.

We'll see what happens, but I can't even take a day off.

SPEAKER_01: So uh men and women both feel the financial toll,

but the effect on women is much longer.

One study found women who divorce after the age 50

experience a 45% drop in their standard of living compared to

men with a 21% drop.

On the societal level, older couples who divorce can create

challenges for an already strained housing market.

Finding housing that is affordable, accessible, and safe

for the needs of an aging population can be particularly

difficult.

SPEAKER_02: That is exactly why all those assisted living places

have the tiers now.

unknown: Yep.

SPEAKER_02: Or you can have a condo and then you move inside

and then you move to the nursing home.

It's like a tiered system.

It makes total sense.

It's a brilliant.

Whoever came up with that, fucking brilliant.

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01: Yep.

All right.

The emotional and psychological impact on gray divorce.

Gray divorce also has profound emotional effects.

It's a significant life change at any age, but this transition

can be especially difficult when it happens after a long-term

marriage.

Elderhood is often a point where many people feel settled, but

gray divorces can have their sense of security upended.

That did happen, yes.

And grief and loss.

Whew, did I go through some grief?

It's normal for people for people to feel a sense of grief

and loss when they go let go of a shared connection and the

dreams and hopes they once shared together.

For some, the loss of what was one of the most significant

relationships in their life can feel very much like experiencing

the death of a loved one.

Sure.

And it did.

It felt like Yeah.

I mean, I've had a lot of grief in my life, and that was it.

Yeah.

Uh Angler explains that people often experience what is known

as ambiguous loss, characterized by feelings of grief.

This loss is considered ambiguous because while the

person is still out there, they are no longer present in your

life.

Which is the weird part.

Like there's a lady I work with, she's in her 60s.

Her husband just tragically passed away after a long, not so

long battle with cancer.

And she's just devastated.

I mean, they were they were great together.

And I feel like I understand somewhat how she feels, even

though my husband didn't die, he's still not in my life

anymore.

So I've been trying to be a little extra kind to her.

Because I also remember like when I first left, everybody

came to like support me.

Right.

And then as time went on, people have lives.

I'm not mad.

You know, but I just kind of stopped hearing from some people

somewhat.

SPEAKER_02: And um that is the hardest part of grief.

It is, especially the grief of a partner.

SPEAKER_01: Yes.

SPEAKER_02: When I lost my significant other at 25, it's

everybody else moves on, yes, and you are stuck.

And you know, it's not anybody's fault that everybody has to go

back to their lives, and and you and you do too, but it's so much

harder.

I just feel like because I know I've always said, you know, I

understand that the loss of a child is probably the worst loss

you can feel.

I get that.

But then I also felt, well, they had each other and they had

their other two children, and I'm here by myself with nobody.

You know, every day I have to come home.

Yeah.

And that I so I get it.

It's it's it's that's the hardest part of grief when

everybody else moves on.

SPEAKER_01: Yes.

SPEAKER_02: And you don't.

SPEAKER_01: So that's why I'm trying to still like I bought

her a book last week.

Remember the chicken soup books?

Yes.

I had forgotten all about those.

And it just popped in my head.

So I got her chicken soup for the grieving soul because he

died probably like two months ago now.

Yeah.

And she'll call out of work occasionally, or somebody will

come to me and be bitching, and she's in such a bad mood.

SPEAKER_02: Oh yeah.

Leave her alone, okay?

And it's so weird alone.

How grief just comes out of nowhere.

Like it's just like you just be walking on.

Um for me, there's two in particular, and this has been 20

what six years ago now.

And it's sometimes a smell or a certain song just comes and it

just hits you out of nowhere, where it's just like something

happened the other day and it stopped me in my tracks, and I

don't remember what it even was, but yeah, it'll hit and and

that's forever.

Yeah.

Yep.

And it can be crippling sometimes.

SPEAKER_01: Yeah.

So the mental health effects of gray divorce are also important

to consider.

Some people experience a sense of renewal and freedom as they

let go of a relationship that no longer serves them.

Others, particularly those who didn't initiate the divorce, may

be left struggling with feelings of stress, anxiety, and

depression.

When a lifetime partner, yeah, a lifetime partnership ends, they

must find a way to readjust and rethink what brings them

meaning, purpose, and connection.

And I will say that, even though I initiated the divorce, I had

that.

Like I was struggling with that in therapy.

I was like, well, now what do I do?

What are my hobbies?

What do I want to do?

How do I want to spend my time?

Like, and I put so much stress on it while I had a million

other things going on.

And I finally was like, you know what?

Just one problem at a time.

Let's settle.

Let's get into like a routine and a regular uh some semblance

of regular life.

Right.

And then we can consider.

But really, I just like to sit on the couch and watch TV.

SPEAKER_02: So it's the best thing ever.

I think about doing things and I'm like, that's gonna be my

problem.

Like when I get old and everybody's like, let's go

cruise.

I just want to sit and stare at a TV.

SPEAKER_01: Like I know when I see like, especially people in

like their 80s, like traveling internationally, and I'm just

like, oh man, that's not gonna be me.

SPEAKER_02: No, that is not gonna be me.

That's how you and I are gonna like I always would we're gonna

be the golden girls.

I was always I was starting to feel guilty that like I I

struggle anyway because I'm a picky eater and so everybody has

to work around me, and because I don't like to go places and and

people force me to do things, which is what people have to do.

Like you have to, and I might not look like I'm having a good

time, but I am having a good time.

I just don't want to be, I don't want to do it.

SPEAKER_01: You just want to be back home.

SPEAKER_02: Yes.

So I've always felt like because we've always had the plan that

we got old, we were gonna that's we were gonna get a house and

that we were gonna live happily around.

We're still gonna do that.

I know.

Um so I would always be like, well, but the problem is she's

gonna want to go to Brazil and she didn't want to do this, and

I want to sit on the couch and stare at the TV and watch murder

shows.

SPEAKER_01: Well, this might work out.

I'll find other people to make travel with me, and you can stay

home and take care of our pets.

I love that deal.

Got it.

See, just keeps getting better and better.

Uh, divorce can take away some of the built-in structure of

interacting with others that occurs as a couple in a family.

Without it, we can feel aimless, not a part of the rest of

society, and lonely.

SPEAKER_02: Never.

I've never a day in my life felt lonely.

SPEAKER_01: Since we talked last week and you said you weren't

capable of being lonely, I have repeated to people that I don't

think I'm capable of being lonely.

I do not get lonely, but I do have the urge sometimes to be a

little bit more a part of my community in some way.

And what I think I'm gonna actually do is my dad's a member

of the American Legion in Florida, and because he served,

I can join.

Right.

And I actually have talked to the people at the American

Legion near my house and got the application, and I might go join

that.

And I'm thinking, you know, no pressure.

I'm not gonna start volunteering and doing all kinds of stuff

like that there.

But maybe on Fridays when I get off work, I go sit and have a

beer.

Right.

And maybe a little snack, get a little dinner, yeah, and chat

with people.

Yeah, and then go home, stay there for a couple hours.

And I might try that out and just see because I'm very

comfortable in that setting, because that's what I've grown

up with with my dad Janet, whether it was the Moose, the

American Legion, Am Vets, whatever it was, we that's my

dad's spot.

And I also feel like I'll feel a little more connected to him

too.

And they used to go to this same Legion when they lived up here,

so I'm sure there are people there that know them.

So I feel like it's a good environment for me to dip my toe

in and sure and see if I like it.

Yeah, we'll see.

SPEAKER_02: You might want to do your diary.

SPEAKER_01: All right.

SPEAKER_00: Because I repeat your life, we're lucky and

through her teenage life.

SPEAKER_01: All right, it is time for Nicole's diary.

Um, apparently, when I hit this stage, I just liked joting down

one sentence once a week or so.

So um, I have excerpts here from October 19th, October 29th,

November 3rd, and November 8th.

Wow.

Yeah, and they're they're kind of sad.

Come on.

Two are the same, and the other two are the same.

Oh no.

All right, October 19th.

I heard today that Oscar might be dying.

I'll find out Friday.

Oscar was my dad's tuxedo cat that he already had when I was

born.

SPEAKER_02: Oh.

SPEAKER_01: So by 85, I was 12.

So yeah.

And there's a crying face here.

Yeah, of course.

unknown: Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: Um that time.

It was.

Um, October 29th was my first band parade.

unknown: Oh.

SPEAKER_01: I was in the Halloween parade.

Of course.

And we scored 64.3.

Yeah, I don't know if that's good or not.

I don't know either.

But I remember I played Piccolo in that.

Yep.

Yep.

Um November 3rd, my hamster digger died.

SPEAKER_02: Oh, that's a great name for a hamster, by the way.

SPEAKER_01: I know.

Another sad face.

SPEAKER_02: This is just full of sadness, this one.

SPEAKER_01: It is.

And then November 8th, the homecoming parade, which was my

second parade that I forgot it.

SPEAKER_02: Were you in middle school?

They did a home, they went to the homecoming.

Yeah.

Oh.

It's big and multiple.

That's right.

That's a big deal.

SPEAKER_01: It is a big deal.

I forgot.

All right.

So when you're going through a grade divorce, you're going to

want to find support.

Having the support of family, friends, and family is pivotal.

Loneliness is a common problem for older single adults.

So maintaining social connections outside of your

marriage can help mitigate the risk.

Get out of the house and interact with people.

Join a class, go to the park, volunteer.

Whether it's with people you know or complete strangers, do

something to reactivate that social part of you.

So the more you engage, the easier this stage of life

becomes.

And I will say, like I said, I don't get lonely, but I know it

I'll never forget the first maybe month or two that I had

left.

I was a mess.

I I didn't know which end was up.

I didn't know what to do.

I did have a lot of friends come to me and support me and talk to

me.

And and like I said, while they have fallen off this year, that

was all genuine and I know it was.

And I knew I had people around me if I needed them, you know.

Um, but also what was so important was the women

supporting women that I experienced was absolutely

amazing.

SPEAKER_03: Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: Like I went to the eye doctor as soon as I left

because I could afford to buy glasses now and I really needed

them.

So um I got there and um they did everything and they wanted

me to have some special tests done.

And I was like, I can't afford the extra if the insurance

doesn't pay for it.

No.

Yeah.

Um, and then I had to order my glasses, but I didn't have the

money right then.

Like I wasn't gonna have it till I got paid.

And so there were like three women working in there who all

came together and they were like, we're not gonna charge you

for the test that you need to have done, and just put five

dollars down on the glasses and then come in and pay for it when

you can.

But I because I told them, you know, I just left my husband,

like and I was kind of a mess.

And that happened on numerous occasions where I would because

of my anxiety, I tend to just blurt things out.

Like I need people to understand why I'm acting the way I'm

acting.

Um, so I blurted it out a lot, but I got a lot, a lot of

support, like real, even if it was just, you know, it gets

better.

I promise you, it gets better.

Like I know it's really hard right now, you know, women who

have been through it before and stuff.

So that was just really awesome that happened to me um at the

time.

And you also want to give yourself time.

While divorce is difficult, any age ending a long-term

relationship might be harder to process.

Give yourself time and grace.

I say I'm giving myself grace all the time.

Um, as you navigate these complex emotions, it's normal to

feel grief, sadness, anger, bitterness, and relief.

And set boundaries, which I've had been having so much fun with

this one.

SPEAKER_02: She has.

SPEAKER_01: I am a boundary a holic at this point.

She is.

Don't even look at me funny.

There will be a boundary set up in front of you.

She is serving everything there for Bert.

I am, because a lot of my mental health issues and a lot of the

keys to my having a more peaceful, more content life is

cutting off other things that it wasn't just my ex-husband.

Nope.

Not by a long shot.

Nope.

So, um, yeah, so create and maintain boundaries with your ex

as well as with kids and friends who may feel the need to express

their opinions about your the end of your relationship.

Or whatever other reason you may feel that you need to uh set a

boundary.

Yep.

All right, it's perfectly acceptable to cut people out of

your life that are toxic.

All right, no one generation is immune to the end of marriage,

but how we handle a separation or divorce is a real reflection

on the ideals and values we hold as truths.

Generation X has always done things differently, and they've

applied this mindset to divorce.

A groundbreaking study by Divorce Online has shed new

light on the phenomenon that has long intrigued both the general

public and experts alike, the seven-year itch.

This concept, suggesting marriages begin to unravel

around the seven-year mark, has now been supported by evidence,

and the study revealing a peak in divorces at this time,

conjuncture in marriage.

The infamous seven-year mark appears to be a significant

tipping point, with data revealing a spike in divorces

around this period.

Interestingly, the study also found that individuals from

Generation X, those born between 1965 and 1980, in case you

didn't know, uh, were most likely to experience a divorce

with financial issues often cited as critical factors in

this decision.

Finances can be a hot button topic for each issue, but the

strain it can put on a relationship is a real issue

that many of us have to contend with.

So here's what the study found.

The seven-year itch phenomenon is real, with the highest number

of divorces happening around this mark.

Generation X couples are the most susceptible to divorce,

with the peak happening at an average age of 43.9 years.

Financial concerns were a substantial catalyst.

Uh, the study did not find significant differences in

divorce rates based on geographical locations,

suggesting that cultural or regional differences do not

significantly influence the seven-year itch.

Um, as Mark Keenan, CEO of Divorce Online, perfectly

summarized, our research sheds new light on marriage and

divorce trends, particularly affecting Generation X couples.

This critical knowledge can inform support during this

transitional period as couples may face unique challenges that

lead to an increased risk of divorce.

This study emphasizes the importance of understanding the

dynamics at play during different stages of marriage,

specifically targeting Gen X, there is a clear need for

tailored support and resources to navigate midlife challenges

that could potentially increase their risk.

There's an opportunity, a necessity even to evolve how we

respect and connect in our relationships.

As we cultivate these skills, we can work towards deeper and more

fulfilling relationships, even if that means starting over in

some cases.

One of the most striking findings of the study is the

identification of Gen X as the demographic most likely to

experience divorce, particularly around the average age of 43.9.

This statistic not only challenges previous

misconceptions about divorce rates among different age

groups, but also brings to light the unique challenges faced by

couples during this life stage.

The study cites financial issues as the principal reason for

divorces within this demographic, suggesting that

external pressures are a significant factor in the

breakdown of marriages.

This revelation calls for a deeper understanding of not just

the emotional toll of marital problems, but also the economic

dynamics that can exacerbate these issues.

In response to these findings, professionals in the field

emphasize the need for targeted support and resources for Gen X

couples navigating this precarious terrain of marriage

around the seven-year mark.

Recognizing and addressing unmet needs and respecting each

other's boundaries emerge as a vital strategy for marital

longevity.

Gilly Chaplin, the clinical director at Counseling

Wiltshire, points out the generational challenge of

lacking the tools for expressing needs and setting personal

boundaries, a crucial aspect of sustaining healthy

relationships.

This study also brings to the forefront the importance of

evolving relationship dynamics, particularly for Gen X, to

foster deeper and more fulfilling relationships.

Some individuals might find that starting anew is a part of this

evolution, paving the way for healthier dynamics in future

partnerships.

SPEAKER_02: You know, I wonder how much of it also is because

we were adults at eight.

And, you know, previous generations weren't adults until

they were 18.

So, you know, 30 years of adulthood put them in their 50s,

and that's and they were like, you know what, I don't, and they

get to retire, so they don't have to be adults anymore.

They get to go be grandparents and all that.

SPEAKER_03: Yep.

SPEAKER_02: And then so meanwhile, 30 years of us being

adults is is in your 40s and in your 30s for some of us.

And it's, you know, you did that for and I know for myself, I'm

I'm tired of being an adult.

I don't want to do it anymore.

It's it's too hard.

It's just too hard.

It really is.

It's the it's and it feels like it's never going to end.

SPEAKER_01: Or it's never gonna get better.

SPEAKER_02: No, like why is it always just hard?

It's just it is hard all the time.

Always.

And I and it's not just I mean, I know you and I also have

financial struggles and stuff like that.

But a lot of these Gen X uh Facebook pages and stuff that I

follow, a lot of them will post like, oh, who here is retiring?

And like I I don't 1500 comments are like retirement, what's

that?

You know, like I just feel like our generation, for whatever

reason, is just stuck in the mud and we lack hope, or I don't I

don't know what it is, but well, it kind of feels like we're in

the middle of something right now, like like stuck in the

middle, which is typical for us.

SPEAKER_01: Yeah.

Like prior to us boomers, you got a job, you got a pension,

you retired, bada boom, bada bang.

That's how life went.

For us, that was the expectation put on us, but that wasn't real

life for us, true, which is a lot of the reason so many think

we're slackers and such like that.

But things were starting to change and companies were

starting to change.

And now, I don't even know if you can get healthcare unless

you work for like the government.

Yeah, I think I don't know who even offers it.

Um, and we're tur changing into a whole new um like with AI and

the way that things are run now and the internet and just

everything.

I'm sure this will work itself out, and at some point people

will be in a better situation, I would think.

But we're just kind of stuck between those two things and

nobody's really taking care of any of that.

SPEAKER_02: And I also think that college was pushed so heavy

that a lot of us are I'm not, but a lot of us are saddled with

that's actually factual.

SPEAKER_01: And the government at the time was also just

handing out money like it was candy.

Well, and that's like you apply for it, here you go, you can

have it.

SPEAKER_02: A lot of people got and I did sprung up in that.

Yep, and uh that and and the mortgage issues where it was

they were giving out mortgage like candy, and then you're

stuck with you're saddled with a mortgage at your next money.

Well, a lot of homes got for foreclosed, yeah.

And then either you're saddled with a mortgage or you've had to

keep refinancing and refinancing and refinancing.

So forever and shit credit forever because you just

forfeited the house.

So it's just it's I feel like there's because we've been

adults for so long already, then it's just not fair.

SPEAKER_01: We have to be kids for eight years.

Yeah, that's it.

SPEAKER_02: When when do we get to be kids again?

SPEAKER_01: Yes.

Yes.

All right.

Uh in the evolving landscape of modern relationships, Gen X is

at the forefront of a seismic shift in how divorce is

perceived and handled.

This generation, which is often overlooked amidst the loud

narratives surrounding boomers and millennials, is bringing its

unique blend of pragmatism and independence to the realm of

separation, challenging long-standing stigmas and

opening up new avenues for managing the end of a marriage.

Unlike previous generations that viewed divorce as a personal

failure, a source of shame, or simply a means to an end after a

dispute, Gen Xers are drawing inspiration from concepts like

conscious uncoupling, a term popularized by Gwyneth Paltrow

and Chris Martin.

They had an amicable split and detailed it in an article.

This movement is seen as a catalyst in the shift towards a

more positive and thoughtful approach to a divorce.

It's not just about legally ending a marriage, but

transforming the conclusion of a romantic relationship into a

constructive uh experience that respects the individual's growth

of both partners.

I could see where that would be better.

I love that concept.

SPEAKER_02: I mean, I I don't think I have children together.

Yeah.

Because you do have to spend the rest, I mean, like it or not,

you have to spend the rest of your life seeing each other.

Yes.

And dealing with each other.

Fer fewer and further between.

But you still have weddings and grandkids and all that shit, all

that garbage.

Once your kids turn 18 and graduations are done, you know,

you're not doing birthday parties and all that stuff

anymore, but you still have life memories that you have to build,

and it does make much more sense to be.

SPEAKER_01: It does.

I don't think know that I have the capacity to do something

like that.

SPEAKER_02: Um well, your case is well different.

SPEAKER_01: Uh Gen X, having observed the effects of

acrimonious divorces on their parents as the first generation

to grow up with divorce as a norm rather than an anomaly, is

taking active steps to do it differently.

They are more likely to strive for a kind of resolution that

protects the emotional well-being of both the couple

and their children.

SPEAKER_02: And that's another thing.

You all grew up with divorces, being your parents divorced and

getting shuffled from one house to another, and mom talks bad

about that, and dad talks bad about and and you as you got

older, you could see that was not helpful.

SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that was yeah, that was not a fun way to be

raised.

SPEAKER_02: So you just want to do it different for your kids.

SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and that's what I did.

I mean, I still got divorced, but um, as a result, here are

some Gen X, some ways Gen X is pioneering a new understanding

of divorce.

The notion that a lifelong marriage is the only measure of

success is fading.

With the average life expectancy significantly increased, it's

natural that people with experience people will

experience different long-term relationships throughout a

lifetime.

Recognizing personal growth as part of relationships.

Gen X understands that they, like everyone else, are

continuously evolving and sometimes need that growth means

growing apart.

Rather than staying in an unfulfilling marriage for the

sake of tradition, they value personal development and

fulfillment.

I feel that one.

Uh embracing the opportunity to reflect and heal.

Gen X is more open to acknowledging the person,

personal work that comes with divorce.

The end of a marriage is a chance to reflect on one's

contributions to the separation, identifying and healing

emotional wounds rather than just playing the blame game.

Uh, choosing collaboration over battle.

More Gen Xers are opting for mediation and collaborative

divorce, which fosters a constructive dialogue between

partners to reach a mutually agreeable settlement.

Um here's how to integrate the principles of conscious

uncoupling into the process of divorce.

Acknowledge the role of individual growth, focus on

healing, refuse to view divorce as failure, and encourage

emotional support.

Uh the confluences of these practices championed by

Generation X does not merely signal a change in how divorces

are executed, it represents a deep philosophical shift towards

compassion and mindfulness in the dissolution of marriages.

By taking a conscious approach, this generation is setting a

precedent for mutual respect and personal growth that has the

potential to redefine the nature of breakups for generations to

come.

While divorce signifies the end of one of the most significant

and long-lasting relationships in your life, that doesn't mean

you need to go it alone.

There are a variety of resources and support networks that can

help gray divorces navigate the challenges that come from these

later in life events.

Finding support and community are critical during and after

divorce, Engler says.

Find a therapist.

God bless my therapist.

Like, I for real do not know where the hell I would be right

now without her.

Like that shoe, somebody was watching out for me when uh I

found her.

Find a support group.

Not my thing, but some people like it.

They do.

Find other people who have experienced divorce, understand

what you have been through, and don't judge you.

A few options include family and friends.

Uh they can be your most powerful forms of support.

Um, mental health professionals, uh, financial advisors for those

of you that have financial.

SPEAKER_02: I think one of the most important things you can

have is a friend who will say, Do you want me to agree with you

or do you want me to tell you the truth?

SPEAKER_01: I love what you said to me.

SPEAKER_02: I don't know if you remember.

I say a lot of things to you.

I I say a lot of opinions.

SPEAKER_01: I think we recorded the day before I was going to

tell him I wanted a divorce.

Yes, we didn't know.

And it was a mess.

And I told you, and I said all the reasons why, as I do, I have

to justify everything in my head.

And I said, What do you think?

And you said, All I know is you've been very unhappy for a

long time.

And that's all you said.

But that was enough.

That's what I needed to hear.

Like, I didn't need advice at that point.

I'd already made up my mind.

I knew you would take my side no matter what.

Right.

But just hearing that from an outputside perspective, you were

seeing it as well.

Like that.

SPEAKER_02: Well, I'm being helpful.

I think it's important to have.

I know my sister says it all the time because I will say, like,

if she's pissed off at her husband, and she she's, I'm

like, Do you want me to agree with you or do you want me to

tell you why you're wrong?

And you sometimes she'll say, I want you to agree with me, and I

want you to be mad at him too.

And I'm like, God damn him.

You know?

Yeah.

Because that's what you want.

SPEAKER_03: Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: Or do you want me to tell you the truth?

And sometimes she will be like, Okay, what?

Like, and I will be like, You're being a jackass.

Like, you're being a jackass.

Yes.

And I think that's important because especially to just ask

the question, do you want me to agree with you or do you want me

to tell you the truth?

SPEAKER_03: Yes.

SPEAKER_02: Because then you choose your own adventure.

And because you could just be like, I don't, like you said, I

don't need your opinion.

I don't want your opinion.

I don't care about your opinion.

Well, just touch your opinion.

No, you know what I mean.

In this moment, I don't give a I don't give a fuck about your

opinion.

I want to agree with me.

And I and I then, yeah, that's right.

Damn him.

And let's get the pitchforks out.

Let's do it.

You know, I think that's that's an important thing to have.

Someone who is absolutely either a yeah, that can be either your

yes man or your, you know, and you need to identify those

people just because you're not you, but just because you're a

person that's super close to a sibling.

SPEAKER_01: Yes.

If that sibling is high energy and high drama and high this and

that, that might not be the person that you want to go to

when you really need somebody to just sit down and listen to you.

Yes.

So figure out who that person is.

It might be somebody you work with, it might be a friend, it

might be it might be somebody online.

That's the final resource I want to bring up.

Um, online resources.

Uh, there are articles, forums, organizations that offer

information and advice regarding gray divorce.

Um, so reading stories about other people's experience can be

helpful in a way uh and you can learn from their lived

experiences.

So yeah, that's the end of my I just wanted to give out that

last resource.

SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I that's I think that that's important to have not just

somebody who rah-rahs you all the time, but unless that's what

you want.

And and like I said, unless that's what you want.

If you want to be rah-rah, then yeah, you know, I will fully

rah-rah you until next month.

But or do you want me to tell you the truth?

And you know, and and and that's another thing.

Like you know you're gonna get the truth.

SPEAKER_01: Or do you just want me to sit here and shut up?

SPEAKER_02: Or do you just want me to yeah, and nod my head and

work it all out in your on your yeah, just want me to be a tree

stump for a second?

I think that's and I think that's important.

That that I think, and this is also what I think of Gen X,

because I feel like Gen X has friendships that have lasted 30

years.

Exactly.

So with you and I, I I knew you when you were 19, and I know you

now, and I've you know, there have been times where we have

gone months and months and months without talking, you

know, when you first had the kids, yeah.

Mid-kid when the kids were mid-range because life is busy

and you were busy, and I can't relate to having kids.

And you know, I loved your kids, and I still do.

But you know what I mean?

Like, I don't want kids, so it's hard for me to it drains me to

spend so much time with them.

So I think that's important too, having a long-lasting friendship

that knows pre-during and after.

SPEAKER_01: Well, that's funny you just brought that up because

I didn't even think of that through this and talking about

my supports.

But maybe a couple weeks ago, um, I got a Facebook message

from a high school friend.

And he reached out and he was like, I just now realized that

you changed your name on Facebook and you're no longer

using your previous last name.

And I feel like the worst friend in the world.

I hope you're okay.

If you need anything, if you want to get together and have a

drink, we can get some of the friends together in Milford, you

know, if you need anything.

So you never know where it's gonna come from.

And he was sincere.

Like if I reached out to him right now and said, Hey, let's

go out Friday night and call up so and so and let's he'd be

there.

Yeah.

And I know he would.

So it is really nice.

So you you have to make sure you reach out and you're finding

those people and don't just stick yourself with maybe that

person you always talk to if that's not beneficial to where

you are at the time.

SPEAKER_02: Well, and even you know, you you do need other

opinions because you know you do.

It's it's important to have a a wide.

SPEAKER_01: And that's why like I loved your answer so much

because I was trying to justify everything and saying it out

loud.

And the point I was trying to make in all the things I was

saying is I'm not happy.

Yeah.

And for you to say, I know you haven't been happy for a long

time, I was like, all right, cool.

Yeah, yeah, that's that's it.

That's that's the point I was trying to make.

Apparently, I reeled it in.

SPEAKER_02: So that's not the reaction I had in her first

divorce.

I think I threw a party when she first divorced.

Oh my god.

Two very different divorces.

I think I had, I think I threw a party.

SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.

Like I see that people do divorce parties, and I thought

about like doing an open house because I just got a new house

and the divorce just went through, and only inviting like

female friends, not to be a jerk, but all my girlfriends,

you know, just anybody throughout life and have it open

like noon to six.

And if you want to drop in anytime, I'll have some snacks.

But I don't feel a particular sense of celebration about the

ending of this marriage.

I did love him very, very much, and we did have a really awesome

time together for a really long time.

I mean, I made so many awesome memories with him, saw so many

things I would never see, went places I probably would have

never gone.

And I do miss all that part of it.

Right.

So this isn't like a yay, it's over kind of thing for me.

It's just it's closing the book.

Like I've read the last page, closing the book, and it's over.

So it's time to move on.

Yeah.

And I didn't shed a tear either.

Like I saw, because you get that email that tells you what you're

getting in the mail that day.

Uh-huh.

And I saw it was coming.

And so all day I'm just staring out the window, like, where's

the mailman?

Goddamn, mailman.

And the second he came, I like ran out the front door to go

grab it.

Because I just did want that closure.

I wanted to get the piece of paper and be like, okay, good.

That's it.

It's over.

It's done.

I can move on to the next phase.

But I do yeah, it it wasn't anything I did because I really

wanted to.

It's more of I had to.

SPEAKER_02: I am a firm believer that people call everybody is in

your life for a reason.

Yes.

Whether it's good, bad, or indifferent.

And when someone I don't want to say outlives their usefulness,

because that's not what I mean.

That's the best way I can.

But when you've learned your lesson from that person, it's

time to move on.

SPEAKER_01: Yeah.

And life just guides you that way.

Yeah.

I have a friend who is very, very, very dear to me, and I

love her very, very much.

And she was considerably younger.

I think she was 19.

I was in my mid-30s when we became friends.

We worked together because that's how work things work out.

And we stayed very good friends.

And I supported her through going to college, and she was

always very good to me, like just a great friend.

And I saw her last summer shortly after I had left my ex,

and I told her what happened.

And then she called me the next day to like talk to me and make

sure I was okay.

But she now she's in her 30s and she has a husband and she has a

small son, and she has a very successful career as a lawyer.

So it's not that she doesn't love me or that she doesn't want

to see me.

She just and she has other things to do.

Yeah.

And they are friends as a couple now, and like all those things.

So to squeeze me in just so I can hang out and say I hung out

with her, you know.

But but I also know I could call her anytime and she would drop

everything and talk to me.

So and I have friends like that from I mean, when I worked in

the casino as a cocktail waitress, I'm the some of the

strongest bonds I made with people were in that race.

SPEAKER_02: That's because you go to war with those people.

They were family.

That's why I say my fellow the four RCAs that were in the thick

of it.

We always joke about we have PTSD.

But today would be the perfect exam, not to to take away, but

like just going to war with somebody in quote, not for real.

Sorry, I don't mean I'm not trying to stolen valor anyway.

Um today there was four of us that were in it bad.

And my work bestie was in the office talking to the

postmaster, and I walked by, and I needed to tell her something

too.

So I walked in.

He was having the conversation with her, and I agreed.

No, he said, Yeah, she she it was her idea anyway.

And my postmaster just went, the fact that you knew it was her in

here that walked behind you is just insane to me.

Because I just I literally just walked in and stood there, and

it was like three seconds, and he was like, It's her idea

anyway.

And she was like, That just blows my mind right now.

And then it was like 10 minutes later, one of the other RC that

I was RCS called me on the phone and was like, Hey, is there a we

have they're called Mysteries where it's left behind, it was

in somebody else's, and now that we have this real fun, cool game

where we have to come back for it after our route is done and

fight beach traffic to take it back out for one thing, yeah.

And he was like, Hey, and I said, Yes, it's here.

And he was like, Can and I said, I'll I'll grab it and you can

come meet me.

And and then the the the the fourth of the four of us, her

route is out by mine, and she does it all the time.

Well, she'd be she'll call me and be I want to already be out

there, and she's like, Hey, there's something here for you.

Do you want me to grab it and come meet me?

SPEAKER_01: Because we were all you went through the same thing

too.

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: And I mean, honestly, almost every morning

the four of us have like this come by and just jibber jabber

with each other, and and we're all of the the two of them, two

of us are around the same age, and two of us are around the

other two of us are Gen Xers and two are I think they're

millennials.

They're like the they're one just turned 30.

Yeah, that one just turned 30, the other one's like 32.

I think that's younger than millennials.

I have no idea.

But when you go through something and a casino or you

restaurant work or retail, it's all traumatizing.

You're trauma bonded.

SPEAKER_01: Yes, absolutely, a million percent.

Yeah, all you have is each other, yeah.

And you spend more time with those people than you do with

your a hundred percent.

SPEAKER_02: I that and we used to joke about that all the time.

I I saw you people more than I see my own bed at this point.

Like I I see you.

I'm that that's you know, when you're trying to tell somebody

about because I get it, it's just male.

And if you don't work for it, you don't understand, but these

people do because they are doing it and they understand that you

know what is happening and why it's so stressful, and you know,

we're out until 11 o'clock at night and it's dark and can't

see anything, and you're in an area you're not familiar with,

and people are yelling at you, and it's just it's a lot.

And you know, so you do you become bonded to these people,

yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01: And they'll always be a part of your life, yeah.

Even if they leave the job, yeah.

Especially with social media now, it's very easy to keep in

touch with people, but yeah, it's it's pretty neat.

But yeah, the point to all this was if you need it, not even in

divorce, if you need it at all, find your people, find that

support that you need, find the right one and hopefully that

helps.

SPEAKER_02: And any kind of grief.

SPEAKER_01: Exactly.

SPEAKER_02: Especially now and now is a great time in your life

to sit down and evaluate who are these people.

Yes, because you are going shit's happening now.

Like shit's happening.

We're losing parents, we're losing aunts and uncles, we're

losing siblings, we're losing, you know.

It's like I said, we're on the downhill now.

So you gotta find your people and know who's gonna be there

for you.

SPEAKER_01: Exactly.

SPEAKER_02: I I have to start being nicer to Nicole's kids.

And my niece and nephew.

SPEAKER_01: No, I can make them do it.

Don't worry about it.

Someone will I don't know about your niece, though.

I heard she's mean.

I also heard that she is mean.

SPEAKER_02: Also heard that rumor.

But she's a teenage girl, but all teenage girls are mean.

So she's 17.

Like a she's oh she's right in the heart of meanness.

Yep, and her mother was mean, just mean.

Yes.

Well, thank you for for that.

That was great.

Yeah, that was great.

Good conversation.

SPEAKER_01: It was a really good conversation.

I enjoyed that.

SPEAKER_02: Very therapeutic for me.

Good, and it's very important.

I mean, that's where we are.

It is where we are now.

SPEAKER_01: And even if it's not you, it might be a friend, a

relative, somebody else going through it, and hopefully you

can't.

SPEAKER_02: You know somebody who is who is getting a divorce,

right?

You just know you do.

If you're not, then you know somebody who is, and you know,

just yeah, just be there.

Yeah, tell them to listen to the episode.

SPEAKER_01: Like, share, rate, review.

Like, share, rate review.

SPEAKER_02: Please tell them to listen to other episodes also.

Yes.

I don't know which ones because I don't even know what we have.

We just have so many of us.

We are waiting.

I know, and we're still taking suggestions on that 100 because

I still don't know.

Oh gosh.

I had an idea, but I don't know.

Okay.

We'll see.

SPEAKER_01: Um, I had an idea too, but I forgot what it was.

SPEAKER_02: You should write it down.

You know, get start a podcast with your friend, and yeah.

Then you get to see each other weekly.

SPEAKER_01: This is the thing I always need to remind myself of

when I'm like, I don't know how to do anything, I don't have

anything.

And I'm like, wait, I do a whole fucking podcast that I've been

doing for two years once a week.

SPEAKER_02: And it this this literally just started because

we were both.

I mean, it was it was my idea and I made her do it, but yes,

because we have always spent months where we didn't see each

other, and now we're both at a point in life where we can't,

she just her kids are grown, you know, she doesn't have to.

I I don't I'm out of the job that is making me work all

night.

Because that was the other issue then, too.

I worked all summer, like you couldn't from May to October, I

was not available for anything.

I had to come live with you and work with you to get to see you

for one summer, but I just don't why I did it, but all right.

Well, like Sherry, as I said, please.

Um, you can find us where all the podcasts live.

All of them.

You can find us on the socials, uh, like whatever pod.

Uh we have a website like whateverpod.com.

I'm trying to think of new merch to put up.

So um, just because that's what I like to do.

I know.

Um, you can send us an email about what is worse than a hole

in your sock to like whateverpod at gmail.com or don't like

whatever.

Whatever.

SPEAKER_00: Bye bye.

You bet is like whatever.