Episode 61: From Economics Professor to Ultra Addict | Ward Sayre on Longevity in Running
In this episode of Endurance State of Mind, Anthony Herrington and Zach Vogt sit down with ultrarunner, marathoner, and economics professor Ward Sayre for a deep dive into endurance sports, longevity, and the mindset behind racing over 70 ultramarathons.
Ward shares how he went from running cross country in a small Texas town to completing some of the most challenging trail races in the country. From the Flying Pig Marathon to Bighorn 100, Sedona Canyons 125, and countless 50Ks and 100 milers, Ward explains how consistency, patience, and smart training have allowed him to keep showing up year after year.
The conversation covers:
- How Ward balances ultrarunning with life, work, and family
- Why recovery and sleep matter more than most runners realize
- The role of strength training and 80/20 running
- Lessons learned from DNFs at mountain ultras
- Training for altitude as a runner from Mississippi
- The hidden costs of endurance sports
- Building community through local trail races
- Why ultrarunning is more about longevity than speed
If you love trail running, ultramarathons, marathon training, endurance sports, or hearing real conversations about the mental and physical side of going long, this episode is packed with insights and stories from decades in the sport.
Whether you're training for your first 50K, chasing a 100 miler, or dreaming about races like Western States, Cocodona, or Leadville, this episode with Ward Sayre delivers wisdom every endurance athlete can learn from.
https://www.instagram.com/endurance_stateofmind?igsh=cjBnanNobHhhYXNu
1 SPEAKER_02: Welcome everybody to episode, I think we're on 62
now.
I I'm not even this is just improv off the top of the dome,
but I think we're on exit uh episode 62, maybe 63, whichever
one it is.
Um we had our main man Ward on, who we got to I mean, I
personally got to meet at Sedona.
Zach has known Ward for a little while now, but we knew what once
we like, as soon as Zach and I were kind of standing on the
corner talking to Ward, we were like, yeah, we gotta get him on,
like ASAP, I think, because he just has such a wide r array of
experience when it comes to ultras.
Um, and and just all the conversations we were having.
The man is no like stranger to an ultra marathon.
He we looked it up, Zach mentions it in the episode.
He has he had raised 70 different ultra marathons since
2014, which is just unbelievable.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's crazy, man.
And we you get to you get to hear from the word's mouth, like
his cadence of he likes to keep running marathons or ultra
marathons, and it's super interesting.
He I I really enjoyed Anthony.
Some of my favorite parts were you know, we put some silly
rapid-fire questions to him that had a certain theme to them, but
there's some deep answers that he gave us there.
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, absolutely.
I I think he did a he d did a great job talking about sleep
hygiene, which is something that we have not talked about enough.
I think we we we hound people on nutrition, um, but sleep hygiene
was a is one that I've noticed in myself recently that I've
been trying to change a lot.
And then community, we talk about that obviously, but he did
a lot of that.
I love I love his 80-20 rule.
I mean, obviously, a lot of people live by the 80-20 rule.
There was one thing though that he said that I disassociated
with the 80-20 rule, and it's I look at the 80-20 as pace.
So I've always like let's say my 80 is uh somewhere between a 945
and an 11 is like my slow speed.
Well, if I didn't get good sleep, technically my 80 is
probably not a 10 to 11, it's probably more like a 1030 to
11.30, or maybe a 1045 to 1145.
And I didn't ask him enough questions, but I do think that
that's probably more so the mindset.
What do you think?
SPEAKER_01: You know what that made me think of?
You giving us your feedback on.
I take that's such good, valuable insight to our
audience.
It made me think about Grayson Taylor's episode where he was
going off of pace in high school, being coached by Josh.
And then when Jed put him through the paces with all the
fancy, fully understanding his pace zones, he realized he had
like the man's got a like max heart rate that's way up there,
right?
He had like, I can't remember what it is, don't quote me on
this, but like 15 more beats to his threshold heart rate, like
headroom in hit that zone.
So I think the point that you're making is super valid and
relevant, and you can have spent a whole conversation on that
perceived effort versus paces and and why perceived effort,
um, perceived relative effort is more critical to train on.
The best coaches in the business for the longest time and still
to this day, metrics are great, training peaks are great,
Striva's great.
I want you to put your comment about your perceived effort in
that box.
They use that as the largest driver in their feedback, man.
So that's uh yeah, that's really good feedback, Anthony, for the
audience.
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I I I think so.
It's it's your your perceived effort is not gonna your 1030 or
let's say seven, so anywhere between a seven and a 15-minute
mile, whatever it is, your perceived effort two out of ten
is not gonna be the same two out of ten every single day that you
go run.
SPEAKER_01: You know what the other side of this is?
We always talk about the the negative side or listening to my
body, my body's not feeling good.
There is an upside to this, ladies and gentlemen.
I can't wait till you get this point in your marathon training.
Sometimes you're gonna start ripping paces and you're like,
wait, that was that fast?
I didn't feel like it was that fast.
So there's another side of that coin that's not talked about
much, you know what I mean, too, which is equally important.
SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
I I totally agree with you on that as well.
So it's it's a double-edged sword, but yeah, it's it's
awesome.
Um dude, Ward has some epic adventures of where he's been,
Lookout Mountain 50, Bighorn 50, Never Summer.
I think it was a hundred K that he had done up in Colorado where
the elevation started at 9,600 feet, which is just like
probably sucking in air to walk to the use the bathroom type of
thing.
You know what I mean?
Um he's he's got a lot of a lot of big races that he's trying to
get into as well, which is which is awesome.
I did like that he he flat out told me this is something that
you told me one time whenever you and I first started talking.
I was like, you think you'll ever do um we just talked about
his race, the um business.
SPEAKER_01: Oh, bad water?
SPEAKER_02: Not bad water.
Um Ward does the um sorry, the Barclay Marathon.
SPEAKER_01: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02: I asked you one time, I was like, You think
you'll ever do the Barclay Marathon?
He was like, No, I have no I I like I have no business to even
want to go over there and do that.
And I was like, why would you not?
I basically was like giving you a hard time.
Why would you not want to do that?
And then Ward said bad water, and I think that was really
early on into my endurance mindset, and I have since
realized that there's sometimes where you just know, like, hey,
there's way too much work and way too much, like this does not
suit me in a race of what I want to do.
And I think that um you know your limits.
And Ward was like, Bad water just doesn't seem fun to me.
I don't want to do it.
So yeah, I love that.
SPEAKER_01: It's such a key that mental if you go read books on
mentality and training, and they say pick races that excite you
or make you curious.
That was my that was my answer back then when I answered you
there.
And like you said, in this episode, you hear Ward answer in
a similar way.
Like if you're not mentally in it before you even get to the
line, before you even start training to it.
What do you think you're gonna be doing at mile 70 when you got
65 more miles to do at bad water, right?
Like you never wanted to run this race.
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, at a hundred and twenty-degree heat or
whatever it is, you know what I mean?
And it feels the the cement feels hotter than the sun type
of situation, you know.
SPEAKER_01: Um one that stuck out for me was asking him about
his experience.
And I'm asking this as an almost four-year-old.
I asked him about um over the years um what's something that
endurance athletes misunderstand about value, success, or
fulfillment.
His response to that, his first sentence response really stuck
out to me, and it was the novelty of the experience.
I thought that was really good feedback.
That's also a tool, I think, for people that have really
competitive goals in A, B, or C that unravel.
And if you don't have that, man, I love being here, man, I'm so
glad to be here, this epic scenery, that could be a chink
that it's hard to find the mentality to rally back from in
a race.
So I mean, even it so I I say that to say, even if you have
competitive goals, you should really root it in the novelty of
the experience to me, right?
Because that backstops everything.
SPEAKER_02: Yep, 100%.
I mean, going out there and doing something is it's
obviously w the stuff that we're talking about accomplishing and
the stuff that the people that we interview are talking about
accomplishing and that do accomplish those things, it's
just like yeah, that's awesome.
They accomplished it, but at the same time, they're they need to
they're also probably 90% of them are looking at it like
you're saying, of like, hey, I'm just enjoying being out here for
the next three days, you know.
SPEAKER_01: Yep, yeah.
SPEAKER_02: Like I know I'm gonna be here.
Let's just be here, enjoy it.
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
So absolutely.
SPEAKER_02: I think that's awesome.
Um, I know you got excited.
I know your ears perked up.
I I mentioned it on the podcast, I know your ears perked up a
little bit whenever he talked about the sun his sons getting
out of the house, and he was like, Yeah, once that happened,
I was I was off to the races.
I was like, Oh, okay.
SPEAKER_01: I'm scratching notes down.
There are some funny comments there about soccer tournaments
and all that stuff, so pay attention for those.
I was certainly scratching notes and picking and uh warming up
conversation about where your kids go to college.
It's a funny segment.
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it was a good one.
Yeah, it was a good one.
Um, outside of that, I think the people that listen to this,
you're gonna love Ward hearing all the races he's done.
He also, I don't know that he keeps up with it as much.
Um, his website um is Frugal Runners.
It's him and Sean, who you mentioned earlier, who kind of
got him into um Ultra Marathon and Marathon in general.
Um so go look for that.
On top of that, I feel free to reach out to him, Triva
Instagram.
If if y'all ever want, if anybody listening wants a
recommendation on where to go race, I bet you this guy's
probably done the race before at some point.
Um so enjoy the podcast with Ward.
A few shout-outs.
Um I I know of one specific is um Chris Mixon just ran.
I Zach, have you been keeping up with this?
SPEAKER_01: I was on a retreat over the weekend, it's one of
the first things I saw come up.
He got to 240 miles for an awesome cause.
Fundraising for um adopting a kid is what it sounds like.
So major kudos to Chris Mixon.
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so he was he was fundraising for adopting him
and his wife are adopting the child, and I'm they've they've
got a few children already.
I'm not sure which child this is, but like number wise, which
one it is.
He started in, I want to say South Haven on Highway 51 and
ran, and he had a certain amount of days that he was gonna run.
Um, but he was trying to do it all in five, and he ended up he
was trying to get to 300, ended up getting to 240, which still
amazing accomplishment.
Saw some videos of people putting up where they were
running with him or they were cheering him on, all the people,
and like as soon as he started kind of getting a little more
local, and the people that he knows were like literally in gas
station parking lots that had parked off to the side of the
road to come, you know, just hug his neck or whatever.
It was it was awesome to see.
SPEAKER_01: You know, I was so excited, Chris.
I'm so glad you did it this way.
I was looking for his mileage on Strava after the first day, and
I'm like, no, he's gonna do it right.
He's gonna upload one track that's 200 plus miles, and he
did.
So go y'all go follow Chris Mixon on Strava and share the
love, man.
It's really cool.
You could tell he had a community around him, and I love
Chris.
I love I love the way he looks at things.
He's a special guy, and you can tell he has a healthy
relationship with his goal, and I think he said some some
awesome things around it, and he certainly built a community and
they were out there supporting.
So kudos, Chris, brother.
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, absolutely.
Kudos.
Um, you know any any other big races that came that were out
this week?
SPEAKER_01: Man, man, I just got my phone back.
You're asking a wrong person.
I don't know.
I'm behind.
SPEAKER_02: I know there was a lot of people doing a lot of
things, not uh based off of it being Memorial Day.
I don't know of many races, so I'm I'm sorry that I don't know,
but I know a lot of people were doing like Murph challenges and
just going out and doing epic things because they had a
three-day weekend.
Um so that's awesome.
I did see where um you don't know about this, Zach, but I
just saw like probably first thing this morning, Delta Epic
is coming back, which is a gravel race in the Del in Delta
Mississippi like in the Delta and Mississippi.
350 miles of unsupported gravel racing.
SPEAKER_01: Whoa.
SPEAKER_02: Um yeah, so it comes back not this year but next
year.
So for all the people listening that want to get into a gravel
race, you know, you've got more than a year to train for 350
miles of riding.
SPEAKER_01: Two funny comments.
You know, we joked about me getting on a bike, and I said
it'd be a gravel, and maybe that could be my long-term goal,
Anthony.
Second, do you know who's behind that?
McCranie have any hand in that?
Getting that back?
Do you know?
SPEAKER_02: I think it's McCraney.
He was the one that posted it, so I I assume it was him.
I I will say I did uh comment on it and put and kind and tagged
Travis Stewart in it and was like, I'm in if you are.
And Zach was like, you can't back out now.
SPEAKER_01: So dude, dude, I can't wait to talk about this
more with you offline.
We got to get oh, one shout out.
I did see Sierra Morris Shattered Runner podcast.
She's crushing her training for Vermont 100.
She came in second overall, first female from a Memorial Day
race.
She did.
Sounds like she's champ, champ, champ, like three years in a row
type thing.
So it's exciting watching her close in on this goal for
Vermont with the couple couple months left.
That's gonna be an exciting follow.
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, she's she's doing some awesome things.
I I see her uh Instagram stories all the time.
She's she's doing a lot of running.
So that I think she's gonna have a very successful 100.
We'll we'll keep an eye out on that one, though.
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
SPEAKER_02: Perfect.
Well, for everybody listening, enjoy the podcast.
Please like, subscribe, share.
You know, tell your people that you want to that they should
listen to this thing, and uh, we'll see you next week.
SPEAKER_00: Turn it up from back roads to storylines, early
mornings, late nights, money is on the pavement, head chasing
lady light.
Endurance state of mind.
SPEAKER_01: Welcome back to Endurance State of Mind.
Today's guest may be the only person we know capable of
explaining both marginal utility and negative splits in the same
conversation.
I gotta laugh in the first and it's that's a good start, y'all.
Joining us today is an ultra runner marathon associate
professor of economics at the University of Southern
Mississippi and a man whose ultra sign up results page has
more entries than most people's retirement portfolios.
He's logged over 70 ultra finishes, multiple world
marathon majors, and somehow continues to race at a frequency
that economists would probably describe as an unsustainable
allocation of resources.
Yet year after year he keeps showing up calm, calculated, and
ready to invest another weekend into voluntary suffering.
Known throughout the running community as thoughtful, kind,
and incredibly well spoken, he approached approaches races
almost like an economist approaches markets, patient,
analytical, and fully aware that poor racing decisions usually
come with consequences.
Today we'll talk about longevity and endurance sports, racing
frequently without burning out, how experience shapes strategy,
and whether the true invisible hand of the market is actually
just another runner handing you a cup of coke at mile 42.
So, ladies and gentlemen, please help us welcome the professor of
pace himself, Mr.
Ward Stayer.
Welcome to the podcast, Ward.
SPEAKER_04: Thanks a lot, Zach.
That was a very cool intro.
I am definitely impressed with uh all the econ jargon you could
get in the uh in the first you know four sentences or so there.
Very, very nice.
Thanks for having me.
SPEAKER_01: We're happy to have you, Ward.
Me and Anthony, I think, strategically keep a few things
from each other.
And I'm not quite sure Anthony even knows about your economics
background, but we both have mutual interest, Ward.
So we'd love to kind of dabble in some of I've got some fun
rapid fire questions Anthony doesn't know about that kind of
mixes both of those topics.
So it's gonna be a fun podcast with you.
SPEAKER_02: Because I wish I would have, I think I wish I
would have known more about your economic background.
I had no clue what your actual what you did for work, Ward.
So that's that's an awesome okay.
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, we'll find we'll talk a little bit about
that today, too, I'm sure.
There we go.
Perfect.
SPEAKER_02: Well, dude, you you Zach just killed it with the
intro.
That was that was probably one of my top three so far in the 60
episodes we've done.
That was pretty good, Zach.
I appreciate you for doing that.
Ward, you dude, like Zach says, I looked at your ultra sign up
earlier.
You are a man of uh many races, I will say.
What uh what I'm just gonna kind of start this how I do
everyone's every podcast so that people can understand you a
little bit more.
But just tell us a little bit about yourself and tell us what
got you into ultra endurance.
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I mean it's uh kind of interesting doing this
without my buddy Sean here.
And uh Zach knows Sean a little bit and sees me uh run with him
around town because really and truly getting into any sort of
endurance event has to, he's part of that story.
First marathon I ran was in 2003, so I was already 33 at
that time.
Always wanted to do a marathon back in my 20s.
I was never fast.
I ran cross country in high school, but basically I had to
run cross country because in the uh the small Texas town I grew
up in, right across from Corpus Christi, uh basically if you
wanted to play a summer or a spring sport, you had also had
to play a fall sport.
And I was on the soccer team and they said, Well, you pick
football or cross country then.
And I was like, Well, I've got asthma and I'm probably gonna
die out there, but I'll just try cross country, why not?
So I did that, and I was like, you know, I kind of like this
thing.
I like this running thing, it's kind of suited me.
Um I don't know if it's just the kind of suffering aspect of it
or whatever it is.
So I was like, I'd I'd like to run a marathon someday.
And my buddy Sean had already run a couple, and back in 2003,
he uh he was going through some personal stuff, and he lived up
in Clarksville, Tennessee at the time, and I was down in Atlanta,
and he said, Hey, you know, let's let's meet up for a couple
training runs in Chattanooga area.
And uh we did that, and then he's like, Well, let's uh sign
up for a flying pig.
And so Flying Pig Marathon was my first marathon back in 2003.
And we realized that you know, we were buddies in high school
and and kind of growing up and like knew each other really
well.
He was the best man in my wedding, I was the best man in
his wedding.
We're like, let's find a couple races we can do every year, and
that'll be a way that we can see each other.
You know, we'll just plan around a couple races, you know, and
maybe it's only one, but you know, that's what we were kind
of trying to do, and so for a number of years that's what we
were doing.
And then he got a wild hair to uh to do a uh an Iron Man.
Because he had been in the bike, he was a good swimmer and some
different things.
So he he bought himself a nice racing bike and signed up for uh
an Iron Man up in Idaho, and after about two weekends of
sitting his butt on a bike for seven hours, he said, you know,
I'm not I'm not a big fan of this, I don't want to do this
anymore.
How about we do an ultra marathon instead?
I was like, okay, we'll do an ultra marathon, why not?
And so in 2003 we signed up for a 50 miler.
We figured 50k was too similar to a to a marathon, so wanted to
go up to a 50 miler, ran one up in uh Montana, and um, even
though it was in Montana, it was super easy, super chill, it's
like on a rails to trails basically.
So uh it was a really nice introduction to the sport, and I
was kind of just hooked after that.
I'd always been loved hiking, loved, you know, backpacking,
camping, and I was like, you know, time on the trails, go out
to do some adventuring out in the woods, get to see beautiful
country, you know, saw a moose on my very first ultra, you
know, that sort of thing, and it I was just kind of hooked from
that day on.
SPEAKER_02: It's funny you mentioned you mentioned like
going on hikes and stuff, because I remember us talking
about it at uh we were talking with yourself and your wife
Wendy on like how you had done some through hikes essentially,
where you would start at one spot, she would come pick you up
at the other spot.
Were you hiking a lot prior to the like your first ever ultra
marathon?
Like, did that kind of like set the tone for it?
Like you kind of knew what to expect.
SPEAKER_04: Well, I'd kind of done hiking earlier in my life,
and then got in this situation where it's like both my kids, we
lived in the Atlanta area for a while when they were little, so
they both wanted to go to these summer camps up in like the
North Carolina mountains.
And so every summer we go and drop them off at these beautiful
areas in in, you know, near uh Brevard, North Carolina, you
know, just beautiful country up there.
And I was like, why are they getting to hang out in the woods
for a couple weeks every summer?
And I have to drive back to Hattiesburg and just hang out to
drive back and go pick them up.
And so when the kids got a little bit older, we decided to
start doing these section hikes uh of the AT.
And we just kind of started in Amucalola Falls and we just
would go for two or three days, and every summer we just kind of
pick another section.
And so we did that for about five or six years until the kids
got busier with life and work and everything else as they were
kind of getting into their college years and all that.
And I still try to do at least every other year, try to go and
do a section hike of the AT, you know, do a hundred or a hundred
and fifty miles or something like that.
But I'd I'd been hiking a lot before, but it wasn't really
like I'd already been doing section hikes and then I became
a trail runner, kind of going all along the same time, really.
SPEAKER_02: Gotcha.
Okay.
So you You obviously get into ultra marathon and ultra
marathons, and it's pretty much game on after that, from what we
see.
What took you to like the step of like I look at your ultra
sign up and you've got a few races, like the early years, you
kind of have like two, three races a year, kind of like
you're mentioning with your buddy Sean, where y'all are
probably just meeting up in the early stages, right?
SPEAKER_04: Right, exactly.
So we do that Montana race, then we do uh lookout mountain 50 in
2014 and uh or 2013, and we both DNF it by five minutes, and
we're like, okay, first lesson, gotta train for the course,
gotta train specifically for the course.
We're not prepared for these hills, you know.
Like I said, in the first one, it was a like this really
smooth, you know.
There's like, you know, some they they hadn't taken up the
rocks from the train track, so that was kind of rough.
But besides that, there wasn't a lot of climbing or anything like
that.
So we're like, okay, this is a different game going out there,
and so then I was just trying to do a redemption on that one, did
that again in 2014, ran better, did even faster 2015.
And it was about that same time that I had discovered the uh
Mississippi 50.
I didn't even know about that until after I'd run that one in
in uh Chattanooga area in uh Lookout Mountain, and so I would
put that on the calendar every year, nice local race, wouldn't
be a problem.
And then essentially it's like life got a little bit easier,
you know.
Around 2016 is when my uh older son graduated from high school,
my younger one graduated in 2019, and all of a sudden, you
know, you've got teenagers that are kind of doing their own
thing, and I didn't feel like I needed to be around to, you
know, carry, you know, take the soccer tournaments every
weekend.
I know Zach, you're you're living that life.
You know, we were, you know, when you know, when I'd first
started off, it was like, you know, fall and spring.
If I wasn't coaching when the kids probably wasn't by then,
but we were going to, you know, travel tournaments, and then
even my younger son's senior in high school, he was doing like
travel debate where he was traveling on national circuit
and all that stuff just got easier, you know.
It's uh that freed up my schedule.
And I I also realized that you know, I was in I had this frame
of mind early on that I'd always heard, okay, you can only do
about two marathons a year, right?
Your body just can't take it.
Well, of course, I'm not that fast in the first place, but
then I realized, well, ultra running, you're on trails,
you're going even slower.
Your body can recover from that super easy, especially once you,
you know, if you're slowing down, putting a lot of time in
the weight room, putting a lot of time, you know, doing yoga,
which I do a regular yoga routine and all that sort of
stuff.
As I've been getting older, it's like my body just, you know,
it's it fights me a lot more, but at the same time, I realize
that if I just keep at it, then I can do an ultra marathon or a
marathon every month, and it really doesn't affect me that
much.
SPEAKER_02: It's funny, you're you're saying this, and Zach's
looking down on his phone, doing the math on how many years he
has left until the youngest one turns 18, so that he can get
three to four to five a year in, and they're right, Zach.
SPEAKER_01: Exactly right.
His soccer comment made me think about how much longer, how much
older they have to get before there's extreme resistance
before I'll have to show up to every tournament.
Exactly.
SPEAKER_04: Exactly.
I mean, it's it is, it's just kind of, you know, I don't know
if it at the time, even my mindset would have been there.
Because even on, you know, we'll talk a little bit about you know
my work stuff later on, but early on, you know, when I think
about when I was first running marathons, I also was out there
an untenured assistant professor trying to get publications, I
was joining international organizations, I was traveling
for conferences, not as frequently as I run races, but
you know, that'd take up you know three weekends a year and
in addition to everything else.
And so, you know, not having to travel as much for work just
because of being kind of in a different space with it, as well
as uh the kids getting older, just freed up a lot more time.
And uh and it's also just one of those things I just like doing
it, you know.
And you know, I know you guys were talking like on the um on
the podcast about Sedona, talking about doing these races
with these big epic views, and it's like that's awesome, but
that's a that's a haul, you know.
That's a that's a big effort to get out there, and you gotta
recover from, you know, in my age at least, you gotta recover
from the travel alone, not let alone the race.
And here, you know, last uh not this last weekend, but the
weekend before, after Sedona, I was kind of I wasn't sure what I
was doing with my running.
I was kind of you know, I was a bit down about the DNF and this
sort of thing.
I was like, there's a 50K over in Brookhaven.
I'm just gonna go ahead and sign up for that and I'll get a 50,
I'll get an ultra ultra marathon finished this month.
And you can just drive an hour and a half away and go get a
50k.
That's real easy to do, you know.
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's funny you mentioned that, Ward.
It was it was we didn't even Zach and I didn't race and I
think we both felt like we needed a week to recover from
all the travel.
So I I assure you, you were not the only one.
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
SPEAKER_01: I had that same thought, Anthony.
Zach McCraney reached out and I was like, brother, I wish I
didn't have a soccer tournament to go to.
But at the same question, I'm like, I'm not even sure.
I'm good to race this weekend.
Then I saw Ward out there getting it.
Yeah.
But he's just got it no matter what.
SPEAKER_04: I just felt like I need to get the monkey off my
back on that one.
I took it super easy, and but I mean, that's a great course,
too.
That's just kind of fun, you know.
If you if you think about, I mean, some people can fly out
there.
I know our friend Dan Vega was uh was killing them the 20 miler
out there, but man, that's not an easy course going fast,
that's for sure.
SPEAKER_01: Dude, that course has so many switchbacks.
When you look at the map, it's like so condensed on top of each
other.
Have you ever rode bicycles out there, Anthony, or anything?
SPEAKER_02: I have not I didn't actually know about it until uh
Zach McCraney was talking about it last time we spoke with him.
So I didn't even know that was a thing out there.
It was cool thing that correct me if I'm wrong.
SPEAKER_01: One thing I really like about it, and I wish more
trail races would adopt.
Do they still have the strum strava markers of like when a
segment will start, Anthony?
It'll have like a strava marker, like segment starting if you
want to lock in here.
That's pretty cool.
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, that's really cool.
That is really neat.
Yeah, I'd forgotten about that because I ran it, I think, in 23
and then uh just you know went out there and was like, oh yeah,
that's right.
They have these Strava markers.
That's really cool.
Huh.
That's pretty interesting.
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, but um so you obviously you've ran a a bunch
of a bunch of races, and I it's kind of hard for me to go in
here and pick and choose which ones are which ones are like
your most memorable because there's so many.
But do you have a few that just stick out comparative
comparatively to the other ones?
Maybe views, maybe epic race adventure, whatever, what have
you?
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I mean, I'd definitely say that uh that
lookout mountain 50 first couple years that I got the finish was
very memorable because it was definitely a physical and mental
challenge.
Uh you know, a 50 miler when you're running, you know,
nothing but a 30-foot hill, and then all of a sudden you're
you're climbing these super long hills.
Getting to getting over that hump was huge.
I think probably the the most memorable ones uh, and uh I'm
wearing the shirt from it from from last year.
Bighorn, I did the 50 last year because I think I'm probably
mentioned this when we were talking in Sedona.
I up until that point, I did not have a true mountain ultra
finish.
I DNF'd Bighorn in uh 22.
It was that was a great, I mean it's a beautiful course, it's
incredibly memorable, it's a great group of folks.
You get you get to see some wonderful folks out there.
I met uh first time I met Andy Glaze was out there, and uh, you
know, Jeff Browning runs that race, you know, many years, and
some really, really cool folks out there, and this the views of
that race are just amazing.
I mean, they they truly are.
And so that race, and I got uh I DNF'd at mile 80 the first year
I ran it, and so I almost got through it, and and you know,
you're out there for I was out there for 30 hours and still got
a DNF, so that feels pretty rough.
That's definitely one of the big ones, and the other one that uh
I actually use it as the uh my profile picture for my uh team's
account on at work is from uh Never Summer, 100K, or it's like
108K or something like that out in Colorado.
That was another DNF.
Uh that one was at mile 44, and that one was that one was a
crazy story because that summer, so that was in 2016, um, it was
the same year we started doing these uh section hikes, and that
summer I got diagnosed with a lung disorder, and uh just a
couple months before, like they had to do a bronchoscopy on me
because they weren't sure if it was lung cancer or what it was,
and take some material from me.
And that was like I had the bronchoscopy, I think, three
weeks before that race.
And so I went out there with zero expectations.
You know, I'd been having trouble breathing all summer
long, and uh elevation and I do not, altitude and I do not get
along.
And that's you know, that's one of those things that and I think
about you know in my kind of post-mortem on Sedona.
I need to not be in charge of thinking ever when I get to
altitude because I'd make nothing but bad decisions in
terms of like you know, feel much weaker, just want to quit,
all that sort of stuff.
But that race, I think the average elevation for is like
10.5.
It starts off at like 96, and then you know, you get up pretty
quickly to you're doing like 11 and almost 11 and a half, 12 in
that race, and it's most beautiful views though.
Alpine lakes up there that you're running through these
these what do they call the scree field, the the fields of
those big rocks that are just kind of like you know, those
fields you're just kind of going hand over hand over scree fields
and stuff.
I mean, just amazing race, but it's like things I learn is like
when they give you, and this is at kind of like a lesson for
Sedona too, like when they give you a really generous time
limit, expect it to be really, really hard, much harder than
you would expect from you know any kind of elevation map, any
kind of like anything.
It's gonna be harder than you you would expect, and so it's
like a 25-hour cutoff on a on a hundred K.
And I showed up to that race, and Sean and I were both you
know, and we look around, we're the only two without poles, and
we're like, oops, oops, this is like we're not in Kansas
anymore, sort of moment there, and uh you know, but it was
beautiful.
I I DNF'd at mile 44, he DNF'd like 10 miles before me, and
when I found out at mile 40 that he had DNF'd, I kind of lost
some wind of my sails and everything, too.
You know, it's like I I don't know about being out here
anymore.
But that's an absolutely beautiful race, definitely one
to put on a on a bucket list.
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
I was getting ready to go there, but I'm gonna like a take a
slight detour with something you just said, Ward, with all these
races that you have and experiences that you had.
This is something I get asked about often, and Anthony, and
I've certainly heard it from several.
I get my feedback on probably half as many Ultra races
completed.
What altitude coming from Flatlander, Hattiesburg,
Mississippi area, what altitude do you think is safe to show up
a day or two before where it's not really going to impact you
enough?
And then I guess what's that what's that uh what's that line
of where it probably makes a little more sense to get some
type of altitude training?
Or I talk about heat training as being a good secondary response
to that, but we'd like to get your opinion on that with all
the experiences that you have.
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I mean, I think I am more susceptible just
because of my lung disorders.
So so I was diagnosed with asthma as a kid.
It's part of the reason why I didn't think I could run more
than about, you know, I was a sprinter in middle school and
stuff, and it wasn't great, but I was okay at it.
And I was like, well, you know, beyond a you know, beyond a 200,
I'm done.
You know, that's kind of my my view on running.
And then I got diagnosed with this thing called ABPA back in
uh 2016, and I'm still being treated for that.
I think I'm a little more susceptible than most folks.
I've only done one marathon even at any kind of altitude, and
it's at uh in Uray, Colorado, and uh that's only at about
5,500, 6,000 feet.
But again, with Sean, we we were camping before the race at this
little state park, and we're just we're like let's go check
out the little ranger station they have, and it's like you
know, 250 yards away.
We just walk over on this little trail, 250 yards away, and we're
both winded by the time we get to there.
And I'm like, oh no, I'm supposed to I'm supposed to run
26 miles, and I can't even handle a you know, not even a
quarter mile walk, uh an eighth of a mile walk over here.
So I'd say for me, it's even 5,000.
5,5500 for running, I I'll notice it in in Sedona, for
example, once we got down to Cottonwood, which is more like
3300, I was fine.
That that didn't I didn't feel like that's like that's like
thin air at all.
But even starting off in Jerome at like 55, 5600, whatever it
was, that I could definitely notice it because I was running
downhill and I was like, you know, taking walk breaks,
running downhill.
This is kind of not a great feeling here.
So yeah.
I'd say coming from here, that's what I would say.
Now the funny thing is, is that you know, like like you're
saying, heat training is a great substitute.
We had a pretty cool spring.
We didn't have like that many opportunities in in April to get
out and do really serious heat training.
So, like in when I did Bighorn the first year, I was really
focused on that.
I'd go out there and I was doing most of my runs at like noon.
You know, I'd go out there and and try to get it as hot as
possible.
And I felt pretty good um that year with the elevation can
considering.
But but you know, if I could if I could do more heat training
for something like Sedona, I would.
And that was that was definitely one of the things that I feel
like I didn't didn't nail in my training there, was uh just the
preparation for the altitude, both the climbing as well as uh
everything all the uh all the thin air that we had.
So yeah, 5,500 feet, I'm I'm I'm starting to feel it pretty
significantly.
SPEAKER_01: It's good to get you here that I think I gave
something similar back to it.
I do listen to um David Roach's podcast every now and then when
they start talking about the science in white papers.
And this is something I've been following for a year, several
years, but one of the notes I took about it, straight out of
science, straight out of the latest uh white papers that they
did, a study that they did, it said that heat training mimics
mimics altitude training by significantly expanding your
blood plasma volume and boosting your heart stroke volume, which
is similar to what you're gonna get out of altitude training.
But there are some obvious differences related to that.
But it's like use what we got and we've got heat, you know.
SPEAKER_04: If we got heat, we might as well use it.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01: So picking back up off the the most memorable races
that you had, I wanted to understand if you had to
diversify your endurance portfolio, what races are you
investing in?
So maybe future forward, which ones excite you that you haven't
had a chance to race yet?
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I mean, the one of the things that I keep on
looking at is, you know, and again, even without the kids in
the house, there is a bit of balance with all this stuff
because you know, this is the this is the fun thing that you
have to look forward to depending upon, you know, what
your kids decide to do.
But you know, once they're no longer teenagers and they're out
of their house and living somewhere, then you actually
want to be around them.
And so then you're like, oh well, you know, I could go and
run a race this weekend, or I could go up and visit my kids up
in, you know, my kids both live in St.
Paul, so go up there instead.
But you know, I'm really looking forward to to trying to get into
some of the bigger races that uh either out, you know, either out
west or even somewhat locally that are these uh kind of more
epic races.
Like right now I'm on the wait list for no business 100 in
Tennessee, Kentucky that has just some beautiful views.
I'd love to run Superior Trail 100.
I got in put myself in the lottery this year, didn't get
picked, but I'll kind of keep on hacking away at that one.
And I'm trying to to build up my uh lottery entries to get into
to Western State.
So that's kind of the the bucket list race that I have out there.
I've family that uh they've moved a little bit closer to
Sacramento now, but at one point they lived about 10 miles from
Auburn, you know, just right down the road.
And I've you know sisters and cousins and nieces and stuff out
there, and uh that'd be really cool to kind of get to see the
family and and have that as a big uh California experience.
So that that's that's the boat, that's the what I've been
working towards.
That's the big one.
SPEAKER_01: That's awesome.
So what I took down and wrote notes down for Anthony, I I need
to start talking to Zoe about not thinking limited on her
college choices, make sure she's considered Arizona State or
Colorado or Northern Arizona.
SPEAKER_02: There you go, all those places.
What I'm hearing is you're gonna have a daughter in the Carolinas
in college, in the Colorado area, Arizona area, maybe a
California, Oregon type area, you know.
That way you can catch all three really.
There you go.
SPEAKER_04: Gotta diversify that way.
That's right.
SPEAKER_02: I love it.
That's awesome.
Any just because I want to know, any any like big plans on ever
trying to get into bad water?
Because I know that's like a you know for a lot of places.
SPEAKER_04: It's an interesting one.
It doesn't that one doesn't interest me as much.
Well, one thing when I think about the you know, I've had
lots of issues with uh my stomach, and I'm still kind of
trying to sort that out, but it does seem to be somewhat heat
related.
You know, it's heat and you know, kind of intensity related
are the two big things, you know, just kind of keeping that
um heart rate lower.
I'm just not interested in those sorts of road races as much.
I mean, it's beautiful views, but I just I I it's not as
interesting to me.
Now I know um gotten to meet and you know, we're pretty friendly
uh Brandy Ray, who lives out in um who's from the Dallas Fort
Worth area, and she's a bad water finisher, and she's she
runs habanero most years when I go out there, and that's a
that's a good training race for that sort of thing.
It starts at noon, you know, in August in East in uh East Texas,
and it's you know, it's pretty brutal, but I've you know, even
uh I think Zach and I were talking a little bit about this.
I I can't even sign myself up for the 100k at Big Butts.
You know, it's like that sort of 14 hour whatever time limit on
on 100k in the in the Mississippi heat, that just
seems like really, really that's that's a bit of a stretch for
me.
But I don't know, I I'd have to think about it a little bit
more.
I did put myself in for Leadville the last couple years.
I'd like to try that, even though I know again, altitude
and I don't get along, but you know, you maybe that'd give me
the incentive to really figure this thing out.
But those are the sorts of races I'm really kind of looking
forward to.
I in terms of ones that I have to get back to, I have to get
back to Bighorn and do the hundred there.
You know, DNFing it twice.
I've I've got to get that, you know, get that redemption done.
And now I've added Sedona to that list too.
So next year may be a double of uh Sedona and uh Bighorn, just
depending upon how my schedule falls out and everything.
SPEAKER_02: The question is I was just about to ask you this.
The question is, are you gonna jump up to potentially a 250 at
Sedona?
Because we've we were Zach and I were funny enough, Ward, I'll
tell you a real quick story about this.
Zach and I, first night, we're we're sitting waiting on you and
Hezekiah to come in.
And I look at Zach and I'm like, the lottery opens for Sedona
250, like right now, the wait list or whatever, you know,
lottery.
I was like, dude, I think I could do the 250.
And he was like, Yeah, I was like, we should tell our wives
we're gonna sign up whenever we get home.
And I impulsively did it that night.
Like, I was just like, I'm just gonna put myself on the wait
list for the 250.
Dude, literally before we I think before we even drop Zach
off the next day to pay Sezekai, I had already pulled myself off
the wait list.
I was like, nope, no chance in hell.
SPEAKER_04: Well, this is what I told myself.
I said, if I get the finish at Sedona, I'm gonna get that extra
like ticket or whatever, right?
Because every every time you get a race finish, you get an extra
ticket in the lottery.
I'm like, then I'll enter Cocodona.
If I get Sedona, then I'll then I'll enter Kokodona.
But I'd really I'm really interested in doing a 200.
Um I've looked at Cowboy 200.
I didn't sign up for it in time, and it closes pretty quickly.
It's out in Nebraska, it's kind of rails to trails.
So it's really and it's point to point though, so it seems like
it'd be a really kind of cool race.
Cool first 200.
You know, there's obviously these beautiful mountain ones
with you know Bigfoot and Tahoe and everything.
But again, it's like I'm not gonna battle both the 200 and
the altitude simultaneously.
I'm gonna try to solve one of those issues first, rather than
trying to tackle the 200 at that altitude.
But you know, the thing is it's it's so deceptive, though.
You know, you think about with cocodonia, you're like, what?
I can do 50 miles a day.
Like, why how can I not do 50 miles a day?
Well, it took me about 24 hours to do 55 miles at Sedona.
So I taught myself how hard it can be, all depending.
So, you know, I I definitely want to get back there.
I want to do more Arizona races.
I'm looking at Black Canyon just to just to do something a little
bit different.
Uh it's a little lower, I think it's a little lower altitude,
it's a little hotter area, but it's a cooler time of year.
So I'd like to do maybe the fifty K out there just to get
out to Arizona again.
Some beautiful trails out there.
And they've just got so many amazing races now with uh Aer
Vipa out there.
SPEAKER_02: Yep.
You if you ever need pacer, Zach and I will be more than happy to
go.
We we enjoyed the hell out of being out of there.
Being out there.
It was amazing.
Yeah.
Yeah, especially if we could have the first day like we had
it.
Like we had it whenever we were.
SPEAKER_04: I mean, that's the thing is like, you know, you get
it's 40 miles until you can see your runner, so it's like, yeah,
you get a free day basically just to hang out.
After that, not so much, but yeah, the first day's free.
SPEAKER_02: Dude, the first 40 miles of Sedona, and I know
you're gonna say the same thing, they were tough.
There was a lot of people bowing out right there where y'all were
at that didn't even continue on where y'all were at.
I guess there was something to do with heat.
Maybe it was aid stations not having water and ice, I don't
know, but it was it was it was tricky, I'll tell you.
SPEAKER_04: One of the things that, you know, for me, you
know, Sedona was a challenge for a couple different reasons, and
the biggest the biggest thing that happened to me is to be
mentally ready for what the physical toll was going to be
for not having an aid station for 14, 16, you know, later on
18 miles.
And I get myself through a lot of hundreds on loop courses
because I can provide, you know, I have a couple coolers sitting
in my car at Lou Guru every year, and I know I can get my
nutrition down in a particular way.
I know what the aid stations are gonna have, and that can be
every four, eight miles, whatever it is.
That's a completely different ball game than you know being
out overnight for 15 miles when you're doing the the hangover
trail and uh you're doing like a 35, 37-minute mile of over some
of that stuff because it's just you know, it's you're just kind
of crawling along this trail at night.
And uh mentally it's a very, very different game.
Yeah.
And I think it did, I think it got, I think the and I know
Zach, you're talking, I think you're talking about this.
That if you looked at the temperature, temperature's not
that hot because the temperature is always taking, you know, the
the official temperature is always taken in in the shade,
right?
And so it's not that hot.
But being a little bit at elevation, having the like
having the those uh those sun rays coming down on you with the
infrared radiation, it just saps your energy.
And uh there's always a there's always a good a good sign to me
about when I'm not in the my right mental state for a race,
is when I start blaming the the RD and the course for things.
And there is a stretch in that uh that 24 to 40 miles where
it's like I was like, oh, this is why it's called Sedona
Canyons plural, because they take you up and they take you
back down, and you go back up, and you see, you know, the eight
station's just right over there, and you know the Coca Codona
runners, you know, they only have five miles to go once they
hit the water tower, you know, the water station in mile 30,
but you've got to go 10 miles because they want to take you up
and take you down and take you up and take you down.
And I was getting really annoyed at the course at that point, so
I knew I was I was not in a great mental space at that
point.
Um I got over myself though, and and and uh you know got back out
there and and and and tried to tried to problem solve as best I
could.
But yeah, it's uh that stretch is sneaky between 24 and 40.
Because it's not like you're climbing a big mountain, but
there's like the steady climb that's completely exposed that I
think just starts, you know.
I've seen a lot of people that you know have podcasts or you
know, do a lot of videos and stuff.
There's one guy that's from Oklahoma, and he was just like,
you know, feeling great at my old 24 head now, and then like
mile 25 is sitting under a little shrub going, oh god, not
feeling so great now.
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's it's funny because we're so Zach and
I are listening to Hezekiah talk about all this stuff, and he's
like, Man, it just feels like we're going uphill the entire
way.
These these elevation maps are all off.
And Zach and I are both like, suck it up, you're it's not off,
like just do it, you know.
And then like all these things he was complaining about, we
start hearing more and more people start complaining about
it, and we're like, All right, fine, you're you're right,
Hezekiah.
Maybe it feels like it.
But the the elevation is spot on, but it's funny that you say
that.
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, no, it's it's definitely a mental challenge,
you know.
Anytime you can uh I'm I don't know if Zach, you've ever done
this one, the screaming monkey up in uh Shreveport area, it is
mentally one of the hardest races because you're never more
than a mile and a half from the start.
So you're out there trying to do a hundred and you can hear the
you can hear the start finish.
You know, it's just right there.
You could just hop on this little road you're crossing and
walk back in, even though you're on this like you know, 17-mile
loop or whatever, it's all just kind of like these squiggly
trails that are not far from the start finish.
And anytime you're sitting there going, man, it's just right
there.
It's just right there.
It's it's not good.
That's why you know mentally I like out and backs the best.
Because you're like, just get get to that 50 mile mark, turn
around, you know, you just have to do the same thing, you know.
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, just the same way back.
That's interesting.
That's an interesting thought process because I used to hate
going out and backs just because it was like you get all the way
on the other side and you're like, man, this kind of sucks.
But you it once you kind of get the you train your brain to
realize, all right, you're halfway there, you're almost
like you just can do it.
SPEAKER_04: You know you can do it, just do the same thing,
yeah.
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, absolutely.
What kind of trainings have you done to really push yourself to
these these long endurance feats?
I mean, I know you're you've obviously talked to me about
your little you you were saying, hey, I don't, I'm not going as
fast, so I'm not like injuring myself as much and not like
straining to like a marathon status, but what kind of
training are you doing currently?
SPEAKER_04: I mean, this is the kind of the mantra I like to
usually have, which is that I'd rather be under-trained than
over-trained going into a race, and so I kind of keep it
relatively light.
I use a lot of my uh, you know, this idea of running an ultra or
a marathon every every month as kind of my long distance runs,
you know.
So if I run a 50k, I don't feel like I have to be out there
self-supporting myself for you know six or seven hours out on
the trace or something like that.
That's most of the the heavy train.
Usually during the average week, I'm only doing about 40 to 50
miles, even you know, maybe during my peak weeks, I'm doing
60-65 at most.
But usually it's about 40 miles a week.
That's kind of what I average.
And most of my run is just right around here, you know.
I'll end up seeing you know, Zach in my neighborhood, Zach in
his neighborhood, Zach out on the trace.
Because when he's doing his you know, 80, 90 mile weeks like
that, you know, he's just kind of all over.
But usually it's mostly just right around the neighborhood
and in the trace.
You know, I'll do those uh Jackson Road mountain bike
trails, I like those a lot.
Take them nice and slow, just doing a little bit of climbing
out there.
I try to get in the gym four or five days a week if I can.
That's been one of the biggest changes in my training in the
last, I'd say, 10 years or so, is to put in, try to put in
about as much time in training and not running as I'm doing
running.
So between you know, yoga, Pilates, core work, and just
kind of weights, do seven or eight hours of that and then do
about seven or eight hours of running.
SPEAKER_02: Do you feel like the weight training has like helped
significantly helped you improve?
Because Zach and I have definitely done some chats about
this, like pulling pulling some time off the feet as a run and
just getting into the gym and doing some training different
weights and stuff like that.
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I'd I'd say that that's definitely helped me
kind of continue running.
I mean, I I'm not gonna act as if I have the best injury record
ever.
I have I have two meniscus repairs, uh, one in each knee
over the past, I guess that's been about six or eight years
now.
I guess eight years ago was the first one.
And but you know, besides that, very specific thing, I haven't
had a whole lot of soft tissue injuries or anything like that.
You know, uh I tend to, you know, my running really depends
upon kind of what I'm specifically training for,
because I kind of have this thing about trying to run a
marathon or ultra every month, but I also then have had this
goal of getting into Boston, which I just recently ran, and
then um I also really like running Chicago, it's just it's
just a very cool race to run, and so I'm trying to time
qualify for that every couple of years, and so depending upon
where I am in what cycle, I may be doing like a more uh more uh
speed endurance work where I'm either trying to run you know um
a 14 miler with 10 miles kind of fast, or I might be out there
doing like Yazo 800s out on the track, but uh most of the time
it's just really kind of basic 40-42 miles.
I've started doing more, I think I was talking to you guys about
this before, of uh kind of 80-20 work, and that's really what
I've been doing this this year, building up to these races.
I've stayed injury free.
I can't say that I feel great as far as my overall uh fitness
levels, but I mean I've I've gotten you know gotten through
another you know six months or five months of uh of hundreds
and uh and 50k's and marathons, so I'm feeling pretty good.
SPEAKER_01: Would you explain that for our audience, Ward?
Is that saying 20% of your runs are kind of intense and the 80%
are pretty easy?
SPEAKER_04: Is that exactly so?
If you think about like an RP, like a relative uh kind of
relative effort scale, relative perceived effort, one to ten.
So 80% of my runs are between a one and a three, or 80% of the
time on my feet is between a one and three.
And so that may be going out and doing just like a 50-minute
recovery run where I'm keeping myself mostly in kind of below
the endurance level kind of heart rate, you know, as I'm
tracking it as well as you know, and that may be a 1230 or even a
13-minute mile, depending upon how well I slept or anything
else the night before.
Then I may be doing you know, some of my longer runs and more
of endurance, which uh for me right now is only about 11:30
pace.
Um, maybe, you know, depending upon the temperature and
everything, about about 11 minute pace.
Um, and then just one run a week, basically five or six
miles, is ends up being some sort of intensity where I'm
doing hill work or I'm doing maybe some sprints, or you know,
maybe it's more of a you know, of a block of kind of higher
intensity within the run, and then do some then do some
sprints at the end or something like that.
So, and that's only about one day a week that I'm really doing
anything like that.
SPEAKER_01: Me and Anthony haven't explicitly talked about
it, but he's got a goal for Berlin in September.
He's obese with getting long runs in, and this is an approach
I'd like to take with him because I think he's built for
it.
And anything in the middle of that perceived effort range, you
know, where it becomes more periodized, I don't think that's
approach.
And 8020 has been my approach too.
You can see it in my knowledge.
A lot of my runs are just cruising between that 730, 830.
And on the get down days, Anthony, which will spread out
for you, you're getting down and working, and then the rest of
it, you know, you can recover, you can cycle, you can go for a
walk.
Hecka, you can even go hike the Ocean Springs Bridge like you've
been doing on those off days.
SPEAKER_02: That's what I've been trying to do.
You caught him on an 80 day.
I tried I tried to catch him on an 80 day one time.
I thought I did.
And come to find out he's like videoing himself like on the
phone.
And I'm like, oh yeah, I'm gonna catch him.
He puts his phone down and he's gone.
Yeah, this is about right.
SPEAKER_01: This this is the perfect thread to pull.
I've got some fun, funny, funnily questioned, like
economic related questions, but that I really am interested in
your answers on some of these words.
So I'd love to riff off of some of these.
Some are gonna be more rapid fire to get into it, but some
can require some thought.
But here's one.
What's the biggest wasteful spending mistake you think
runners make in training?
SPEAKER_04: Ooh.
Wasteful spending mistake.
I'd probably say I'm trying to think about whether or not I do
these before I say anything, but I'd say uh in training, I'd say
cycling through watches too quickly.
You know, I just don't feel like what I've I've you know, I like
the I like the additional data, but I don't think it's really
affected me in terms of performance that much.
Like basically I'll run my I treat my watches like my cars
basically when they start falling apart.
That's when I you know when they no longer function, that's when
I get a new one.
SPEAKER_01: Ooh, that's perfect, perfect segue into this next one
I was gonna go to.
Which running metric do you think people overvalue the most?
SPEAKER_04: Ooh, in terms of running metrics, I mean I would
just say what running metric?
That's an excellent question.
I mean, I I would just say kind of their their speed on their
average daily run, you know, just their tempo on that average
daily run.
This is something I'd catch myself doing all the time.
Like, I'd be happy if I ran my you know 4.1 mile loop around my
neighborhood at a at a 730 or something like that.
Unless I was specifically training for something, I don't
know what that was doing for me.
SPEAKER_01: Great, great answer.
I love that answer.
I hope people in our audience are listening.
That's one we get caught up with a lot.
You know, you can pull that a little bit further and think
about your 80 days, don't worry about it.
Just get out there and get some miles in, you know.
I love that answer.
I got one for you.
Which has the higher opportunity cost?
Missing a long run or missing sleep?
So maybe think about a goal marathon race if you're gonna
want to think about that one, where long runs might be
important.
SPEAKER_04: I mean, when you're talking about, I mean, I'd say
missing sleep.
This is, you know, about gosh, I want to say it's probably about
three or four years ago now, that I started trying to dial in
my sleep hygiene, and it has made all the difference in the
world in terms of and this is the one thing that I'll say some
of the watches, you know, my my current watch compared to my
earlier watch gives me a better sleep indicator, and even though
it's still not great.
And let me tell you, running, going running, you know, 18
miles just because you had it scheduled on a crappy night's
sleep, that's not gonna do anything for you.
You know, you're just you're just gonna end up delaying your
recovery, and you're not gonna, it's not gonna be a great run.
SPEAKER_01: That's so well said.
I've certainly noticed that if I've as I've gotten older in
something I've really started focusing on about seven years
ago.
And to your point, you can get out there and suffer through
what's on your schedule that next day, but it's it's it's so
risky, and it a lot of times it's like, man, I'm just gonna
throw that one day aside and get a better night's sleep.
Anthony, I'll give it to you.
SPEAKER_02: I was gonna say the same thing.
This is actually something I've been working on because so I I
got the a whoop back, I don't know, right after dad's heart
attack, just to kind of like track some more stuff a little
bit better because I don't wear my garment all the time.
And first six months, my sleep, like my whoop was just like
you're subpar on sleep, subpar on sleep.
And then something changed where Michaela and I were like, all
right, let's go to bed early and try to get more sleep.
And I've noticed immediately how every single run feels like an
easier run now because of proper sleep and proper rest.
SPEAKER_04: Oh yeah.
I mean, it makes just such, I mean, it's one of those things
like I used to, it used to be a mystery to me.
Like I'd go out there and have a run, I'd be like, but I I felt
like I slept fine, but nowadays I'd know, oh, that was a
non-restorative night, you know, and and very clearly I thought I
was sleeping well, but you know, that next day I'd be really
tired and I was like, oh yeah, clearly I did not sleep well.
And uh, you know, it's it it just makes all the difference in
the world.
Yeah, like a good night's sleep.
Like I used to be a terrible sleeper, and and then I was just
like, no, as I'm getting older, this is something I've got to
fix because this is this is not gonna work for me.
SPEAKER_01: I want to hammer that one home for our audience
too, because it's a low-hanging, I'm gonna call it a low-hanging
fruit you adjustment you can make.
It'll take more discipline.
And like we'll all understand that I've come to learn ideally,
I'd love to get seven to seven and a half hours of sleep a
night, but what I really learned, like on retreat
weekends, if I can get five or six, even, which is not the
total I need, but I can spend some time in a rim or deep, like
an hour in each, I'm golden, like I'm good, you know.
SPEAKER_04: So yeah, I mean quality over quantity is all
that is is really what you'll start noticing too is like,
yeah, an hour of an hour of deep and an hour of rim, and you're
probably gonna be okay on five or six.
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
SPEAKER_01: Next silly one for you.
So let's think hundred milers or longer.
If aid stations operated on supply and demand, which item
becomes the hottest commodity at mile 80?
SPEAKER_04: Um, I'd say in general, it's real food,
especially something like Lugaroo.
I don't I I love this race.
Uh, they have someone that that makes this amazing potato soup.
Potato soup is the is the is the highest uh demand, and probably,
you know, if if they're not careful, then runs low on supply
at that point.
SPEAKER_01: That's good stuff.
This is a silly one.
Is there such a thing as inflation and rates mileage
stories over time?
So romanticiz romanticization.
SPEAKER_04: Probably so.
Probably so.
I mean, I I don't know if uh if I actually DNF'd at mile 80 and
uh at Bighorn, it might have been 75, it might have been 77.
Sometimes it's hard to remember exactly.
So exactly probably probably a little bit of that.
SPEAKER_01: This absolutely evaporated.
I got one more silly one before I throw it back to Anthony in
case he has any serious questions to end on.
Um what's the hidden tax nobody warns you about in endurance
sports?
Is there one?
SPEAKER_04: Hidden tax.
I would say in some ways, in some ways, unless you build your
social life around your endurance sports, then it could
be that because let me tell you, and I saw this, you know,
someone talking about how alcohol consumption is
decreasing amount among 20 somethings, and they blame like
you know smart watches and everything for that because then
they realize how bad they're sleeping.
And you know, the idea of going out on a weekend night when I've
got a long run the next day, that's just you know, it makes
no sense.
Now, I did, you know, recently we my wife and I we went to a
concert up in Jackson.
I was like, okay, at least it's on a Monday.
I can always shift my Tuesday, you know, run around and
everything.
But you know, if it was on a weekend, that would have been
hard.
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you know, it's funny, it's funny you say that
because normally whenever we have something going on on the
weekend, I'm like, all right, what night is it?
And if Michaela says it's Friday or Saturday, I'm like, all
right, well, I'm gonna wake up if it's Friday night.
I'm waking up early Friday morning, I'm I'm getting my long
run in.
I'd rather be tired at the event than tired for my run.
Oh, yeah.
That's how I definitely zach.
You got anything else before I wrap this one up for us?
SPEAKER_01: Let me go one more word.
I had one written down.
This one could be deep.
You've raced a lot over the years.
What's something endurance athletes misunderstand about
value, success, or fulfillment?
And this may be focusing in on less competitive, but where's
the value and success and fulfillment come in and keeps
you excited as you continue to sign up for races?
Because I think your answer a lot of people could use to hear
what you probably have to say on that.
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
I mean, I think there's uh a couple different things that
I've been leaning towards.
One is just uh the novelty of the experience.
I've gone out and done uh the Barclay Fall Classic a few
times, and it's just a very different race.
You're gonna see a different group of people out there than
you do at most ultras.
And it's one of those that you know, I'm I'm I'm probably I'm
not gonna sign up for it this year, but I'll probably sign up
for it again in the future just because it is just kind of a
unique thing.
The other thing I'd say is that you know, I I think about, you
know, you guys were asking about these, you know, these big races
with these views, and I love that.
I love going out to Bighorn.
I I love you know the experience at Sedona.
I definitely want to do that again.
But just the sense of community at these local races, I think
they're just it's just really, really cool actually getting to
know all the folks from, you know, here in Hattiesburg, we
have a bunch of runners in this area, but we also, you know,
there's folks at you know, from Jackson, those mutts folks that
I see every year at the Mississippi 50, the the hundred
mile or whatever that I've gotten to know.
And it's like year after year getting to kind of be part of a
community is one of the things that I wasn't, you know, I
didn't start this thinking about that.
But more and more so, that's kind of what I like about it is
you know, getting to, you know, go to you know, go to Fleet Feet
and see, you know, Ethan working there and and talking to him
about what he's doing next, and knowing that, you know, his dad
and mom are also out there, you know, planning races and
everything.
And it's just a really cool thing to get to know folks that
also love the sport that you love.
And it's uh it's a just something that I didn't really
focus on early on, you know.
The the races that I chose and the kind of the way I approach
them.
It's uh it's it's very different nowadays because even you know,
something like Sedona, I met this guy from from Dallas, and
we were talking about you know hooking up again next year to
run it at some point because he's
SPEAKER_02: gonna run it without a crew maybe and you know seeing
what he's gonna do and so it's really just great getting to
meet people all over the country and getting to kind of know the
running community in this broader sense the local one as
well as the the the national one that was really well said yeah I
think so I think so as well we we we talk about community
around here a lot as well because it's just seems like
Mississippi's got such a great community for the ultra running
it's small but uh and very let's say very niche but the pact that
there is that is that ultra community everybody it seems
like everybody knows each other oh yeah so it's awesome let me
ask you this we'll we'll kind of wrap it up here we we normally
try to stick around an hour ward so we'll wrap it up here you've
got six seven seven more months until the end of the year so
you've got seven more either ultras or marathons well what's
next on the list for you yeah I'm not sure if I'm gonna get
one in June because my wife and I are doing some traveling and
so that's always one of those things you know even when the
kids get older you got other priorities too so but in July
I'm doing Big Butts in August I'm gonna do habanero 50k out in
Texas.
SPEAKER_04: And depending upon whether or not I get into no
business I'm probably gonna try to do the double New Hampshire
and Maine marathons.
So on Saturday you run New Hampshire and on Sunday run
Maine.
I've never done a double that's one of those things I've always
wanted to do and I've never done it.
I kind of have this idea of 50 states in the back of my mind
but I'm not like chasing that I'm just kinda doing it as I
kind of do it.
And then uh November I'm signed up for Mamba.
That's kind of the backup if I don't get into no business I
don't think I'll do both but you know I've I've run 100 milers
four weeks apart I've never tried to run them two weeks
apart so maybe that'd be a new challenge.
And then I'm finishing up the year with Lou Guru.
This is their last year.
I think someone else is gonna do a similar race similar time of
year and stuff but out in uh Ville Platte Louisiana that's a
race I've been doing since 2019 and it's uh it's just a great
group of folks and uh if I finish 60 miles this year I get
my 500 mile jacket and you know I'm I'm a I'm a sucker for some
additional gear just for uh for accomplishing you know running a
15 minute mile or whatever I'm gonna do out there.
SPEAKER_02: So perfect man or Ward we appreciate you so much
for thanks for inviting me it's great to chat with you guys.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah absolutely and if if you ever need anything
from us please feel free reach out we'd we'd love to support
some of these ultra events you're doing awesome I I'll I'm
very likely to take you up on that so love it love to all
right good chatting with you guys thanks Ward Yeah turn it up
from back roads to start lines early morning to late nights on
the pavement head taste daylight mix with the mix with this