Episode 64: Train Your Mind: Sports Psychology Secrets for Endurance Athletes, Dr. Ashley Sampson
What if the most important muscle you train for your next race has nothing to do with your legs? On this episode of Endurance State of Mind, hosts Anthony Herrington and Zach sit down with one of the most accomplished sports psychologists in the country, Dr. Ashley Sampson, professor in the Department of Kinesiology and Health Promotion at the University of Kentucky, for a conversation that might just change the way you think about running, racing, and everything in between.
Dr. Sampson's journey into endurance sports is one that a lot of us can relate to. She grew up as a multi-sport kid in Louisiana, competed as a track and field and rowing athlete in college, and then stumbled into distance running almost by accident, deciding the night before a half marathon that she was going to run it. Fast forward through graduate school, a move to California, a deep dive into trail running, and a jump straight into a 50 miler in the Marin Headlands outside San Francisco, and you've got someone who doesn't just study the psychology of endurance athletes from the outside. She lives it from the inside. These days she balances her role as a professor and private practice sports psychology consultant with competitive equestrian riding, trail running, yoga, and somehow still managing to prioritize sleep like a professional. She is the real deal.
But this episode isn't just about Dr. Sampson's impressive background. It's about you, the runner, the cyclist, the triathlete, the ultra runner who wants to know how to get more out of their mind on race day and in training. And Dr. Sampson brings the science and the lived experience to back up every single thing she shares.
The conversation kicks off with one of the most refreshing reframes we've ever heard on this podcast, the idea of shifting your mindset not from negative to positive, but from negative to productive. If you've ever had a coach or a well meaning friend tell you to just think positive when things are going sideways on a long run, you know how hollow that advice can feel. Dr. Sampson explains why that approach doesn't work neurologically or psychologically, and what to replace it with instead. The goal isn't to lie to yourself and pretend everything is great when your quads are on fire at mile 40. The goal is to ask a better question, what can I get out of this right now, and let that question pull you forward.
From there, the episode dives into the science of mental toughness itself. What is it, really? Is it something you're born with, or something you can build? Dr. Sampson challenges the either or framing entirely and makes a compelling case that mental toughness is both a natural tendency and a trainable skill, and that the environment you put yourself in has a massive influence on which direction it develops. Whether you grew up being pushed to your limits or you're building that resilience for the first time at 35 through ultramarathon training, there is a path forward. And Dr. Sampson lays out exactly what that path looks like.
One of the most practical segments of this episode is Dr. Sampson's concept of race day fire drills. Just like we practiced fire drills as kids, walking calmly out of the building, knowing exactly where to go and what to do before any emergency ever happened, she encourages athletes to think through every possible thing that could go wrong before they ever toe the start line. Shoes getting sucked off in the mud at mile 30? Plan for it. Running out of gels? Plan for it. Weather turning on you? Plan for it. The goal isn't pessimism. It's control. When you've already thought through the chaos, you don't panic when it arrives. You execute. And that sense of control, Dr. Sampson explains, is one of the most powerful predictors of endurance performance there is.
We also spend real time on pre race anxiety, something Anthony opens up about from his own experience going from nervous wreck at his first triathlon to a muc
1 SPEAKER_04: Welcome to Endurance State of Mind.
You were listening to Zach and I's preamble to what is big
word, Zach.
Big word, right?
SPEAKER_03: Big word bonus.
SPEAKER_04: I had to I had to use it just because you know who
we had on.
Anyway, Zach and I just had on Dr.
Ashley Sampson.
She's a professor for the University of Kentucky.
She works a lot with sports psychology.
Y'all, for the people that are listening to this podcast, I
highly suggest listening.
Like whenever we do these pre-introduction podcasts, we do
it so that people if they don't want to listen, they don't have
to.
Even if you're questioning the listening or you don't want to,
you know what I mean?
Listen to this podcast, you're gonna love it.
Like it's one of those that you're gonna want to listen to
the entire episode.
Zach, tell me what you think about it.
SPEAKER_03: I don't feel like we scratched the surface.
Like we we joke at the end, say we need to have her on retainer
to bring her back on because we could have taken this
conversation a million different ways.
We try to do right by you audience and get to application
specific advice, but you will quickly find out early in this
interview.
It's good.
Just start it.
Just start it.
Just skip us.
Skip the next 10 minutes or however long we're spending.
Just get there now.
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, you'll uh you'll quickly find out.
She's a lot smarter than Zach and I both are.
SPEAKER_03: If you didn't already know that.
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, if you didn't didn't need much to know that,
but you'll find that out real quick.
Besides that, I she does a dude, she did a great job of I'm I
wrote down the a big topic for me is negative to productive,
because there's definitely audience, you'll hear about it
later.
There's definitely days where I go out and I don't want to run
and I have negative mindset into that run.
And she talks about changing that negativity into just let's
just don't be positive because like everybody forces or
everybody emphasizes positivity into your mind.
You don't have to do that, you can just get into a productive
headspace and run with it.
And I think she did a great job of that.
There was also Zach, you love the visible visualization piece
of races, pre-race, post-race, and doing that type of stuff.
She did a great job explaining that.
I'm interested in this mindful athlete book by George Mumford
as well.
SPEAKER_03: I wrote that down too.
It it's always fun when you've been operating on a principle
that you think you flushed out on yourself when you might have
read a book, and then you have someone come on that's a doctor
and professor that are like, no, yep, that's data backed.
Like, I love that.
You know, it's ironic.
You were hammering sleep hygiene, it feels like on the
last few weeks.
That gets brought up here.
You know, it's like a starting point, like that's interesting.
And then we also talk about identity and uh born with that
dog in them.
Oh, we how can we forget?
What a good one, man.
That was a fun part of the episode.
That's hilarious.
Gen Z, we cover nurtured nature.
Can you have that dog in you?
SPEAKER_04: And to be fair, we have been it has been told to us
that you can be born with the dog and you it can grow.
That dog can be a puppy and grow.
Sorry, sorry, I had to say it.
Anyway, listen to the podcast.
Zach, you got anything else outside of um Ashley?
I had one thing that I found interesting if you want to talk
about it.
SPEAKER_03: Specific to our interview or just in general?
Just in general.
Boy, well, I've got a way too early looking forward to future
things coming down the line.
July 11th is gonna be a massive day in sports.
Listen to this, it ties in endurance sports.
World Cup fans.
We're gonna have a World Cup quarterfinals.
There's UFC 329 in Las Vegas with Connor McGregor comeback,
the Wimbledon's Women's Day final, and stage eight of the
Tour de France.
All of that is going down on the same day.
Wow.
Oh boy, yeah, I think I'm watching the Tour de France for
sure.
SPEAKER_04: Speaking of speaking of Tour de France, I saw Tour de
Alps.
They had like 40 something people out of 130 drop the race,
and it's like they were talking about how bad it is because it's
a lot of like this is where a lot of the Tour de France guys
go pre-ride to essentially get their legs, their climbing legs
under them.
And there was a few of big names like Wow Van Art had to abandon
the race.
I want to say Sussex abandoned the race as well.
That big that young guy that we were talking about.
I want to say his was something unrelated because he like had a
mechanical or had an error and had to fight back on this climb
basically by himself.
SPEAKER_03: Still finished like in fourth or something, right?
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, still finished like in fourth, but then
abandoned the race shortly after.
So it I'm curious to see if that's gonna have some type of
lingering mentality on some of these folks.
Dude, I'm I'm pumped for the tour.
SPEAKER_03: So Dude, Anthony, I gotta follow it closer because
every time we cover the tour and a grand tour or big races finish
it, I'm like, oh cool, that's the last one.
They're done, they're just gonna train.
And then another one crops up like this, and I'm like, what?
They just they just burn it hot all the way to the start line.
SPEAKER_04: Yep.
This is one that I really wanted to go to.
Uh it's like in the Swiss Alps, northern Italy, northern or
southern Switzerland, that kind of area, you know.
It goes through all of that.
Uh Austria.
But anyway, it's one of those that I would love to do.
People that can ride in mountains like that have a huge
place in my heart because I cannot climb a mountain on feet
or bikes.
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I don't understand that on the bikes,
those guys.
Yeah, we'll we'll talk about it, I'm sure, at length over the
tour where my mind's gonna be blown watching Tade or Jonas
sitting down, pulling away, going up a 16% incline, and
somebody's trying to chase them.
And I'm like, wait, that don't make sense, Anthony.
What's going on?
And then we'll flash our audience back to Jed's interview
where he talks in detail about it.
Maybe we need to get Jed on again.
SPEAKER_04: We probably should.
We'll talk with him about that soon.
Anyway, we'll we'll leave it here.
It's six minutes, is even better than 10.
You you get straight to the interview as faster than
possible.
Everybody, we appreciate you listening.
Please like, subscribe, share, and we will see you next week.
SPEAKER_00: Turn it up.
Yeah, from back rows to start lines, early mornings, late
nights, miles on the pavement, head down, chasing daylight.
Mississippi heartbeat, sweat mixed with the grind.
Pain in the legs, but it's gonna be the mind with the wheel, no
lass.
Every story, every finish, hold on, no high chest, no fitness,
no casting podcast is that the flame for the shine.
If you know, then you know.
Endurance state of mind.
SPEAKER_03: Welcome back to endurance state of mind.
Today's episode is all about the most powerful piece of equipment
every athlete brings to the start line.
The mind, that is.
Our next guest is a professor in the Department of Kinesiology
and Health Promotion at the University of Kentucky.
Prior to that, she spent 12 years as a full-time professor
at California State Northridge.
She taught courses in the areas of sports psychology and sports
sociology, conducted research on athletes, and also spent time in
the athletics department as their sports psychology
consultant.
In that role, she worked with individual athletes, teams, and
coaches on the psychological aspects of peak performance.
In her research, she mainly focuses on athlete
self-perceptions.
Love this.
Self-efficacy, self-confidence, self-talk, etc., and also has an
interest in mindfulness practice for athlete well-being and
performance enhancement.
Her CV has more publications, associations, peer-reviewed
presentations, and consultation affiliations than I know what to
do with for an intro, including something to do with an ongoing
consultant role with Strava.
I hope we'll get to.
Today we're diving into the science behind resilience,
confidence, mental toughness, and what separates athletes who
simply endure from those who find a way to keep moving
forward.
Because every runner trains their legs, but the best ones
learn how to train their mind.
So without further ado, please help me welcome Dr.
Ashley Sampson to Endurance State of Mind.
Dr.
Ashley or Ashley, you say you like going by.
How are you?
Welcome to the show.
SPEAKER_01: I'm doing great.
Thanks for having me.
And yeah, you could just call me Ashley.
SPEAKER_04: You know, it's it's funny because after Zach started
reading that intro, I kind of smirked, and I don't know if
y'all saw that, but I was thinking this could be 45
minutes long right here.
Just Zach reading off everything if he starts going.
Oh, you have a very impressive CV, Ashley.
We're so excited to have you on.
We can't wait to hear more about it.
Typically, we start the podcast with, you know, just tell us
about yourself.
And so I I guess let's start there and then we'll jump into
it.
So, how about you tell us a little bit more about yourself?
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
Um, well, as I mentioned earlier, I grew up in Louisiana.
Um, I, you know, am very acquainted with running long
distances in that hot, humid southern weather.
Um, but growing up, I was a kid who played all the sports, um,
was very active.
And then I um, as I went into college, I was a track and field
athlete, uh, did that for a year and actually then transitioned
to being a rowing athlete, a rower, um, which is kind of
funny because I'm I'm not tall.
Um, but I really actually found that I was in the best shape of
my life when I was a rower.
Um, and then I got connected with some of the people on my
team who were running longer distances and doing triathlons
as cross-training during the summers and during our off
season.
So that was sort of my first foray into distance running.
Um, I think I ran my first half marathon.
I decided at about 10:30 the night before that I was gonna do
it.
So really good training plan.
Wouldn't necessarily recommend that.
Um, but again, I was, you know, 20.
So you can do that when you have a 20-year-old body.
Um, and I remember thinking, like, why would someone ever run
this far?
I would never ever run this far again.
Um, fast forward to me being in graduate school, no longer a
college athlete, but wanting to stay in shape and and really
finding that running was becoming a place for me in terms
of just clearing my head, gathering my thoughts, being
able to find clarity on things that maybe I was grappling with
as a graduate student, um, both during my my master's degree and
my PhD.
And then uh ran my first marathon, I think at the end of
my master's degree, and then continued doing road races.
Uh, and then when I moved to California to take the job at
Cal State, I got really heavily into trail running and then I've
never looked back.
Um, and you know, my first sort of ultra, if you will, uh, I
decided to jump right in and just do a 50 miler because that
makes a lot of sense.
Um, but you know, I really found that I loved the training
process um because every, you know, every week was a new first
for me.
Oh, I've never run 27 miles and then 28 miles.
And, you know, so the training for me, I think, was the biggest
journey and the the you know, I guess to me the most memorable
thing I think of when I first started entering into the ultra
world.
Um and then the race was just the fun part.
I got to go up to San Francisco and do the North Face Endurance
Challenge up in the mountains of the Marin Headlands.
And so it was really neat.
Um, and since then I've just I've been running ever since.
Um, you know, try to do a couple races a year, um, but I also
balance that with um my full-time job, as you mentioned.
I have a very busy job as a professor at UK, and also I have
a private practice in which I work with athletes.
And then on top of running, I'm also a competitive equestrian.
And so I'm balancing um training with my horse and my running,
and then also yoga so that my body stays flexible, um, which
is definitely more important as you get to your older age, you
know, your body doesn't quite bounce back like it does.
And so needing that yoga to help do some of that repair.
Um, so yeah, so essentially that led me here to Lexington, right?
And that's essentially what I do these days.
I'm either running, riding my horse, or working.
SPEAKER_04: Or yoga, apparently.
How do you do you ever actually sleep?
That's I guess that's a that's another good question.
SPEAKER_01: I do.
Um, and actually that's something when we talk about
like mindset and mental health and things like that.
Um, it's interesting that there's some research that's uh
one of the biggest predictors of mental health struggles,
particularly within college athletes, but I would even
extend this to all athletes, is uh chronic sleep deprivation.
So for me, sleep is actually a non-negotiable.
I'm just very, very sort of regimented with my time, if you
will, just to make sure that I fit it in every day.
SPEAKER_04: That's an interesting take because I I
will say Zach and I have talked about this in the past few
weeks, and I don't know how much of a listener of the podcast you
are, but I have really started like regimening sleep and making
sure that I get seven out at least seven hours because I feel
like that's what my body needs.
Yeah, and I've seen a significant increase in being
able to like go out and hit performances like I need to.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, sleep is almost like the new, I don't
want to say the new, but the new hidden hidden tool, right?
People are really starting to recognize and especially the
long-term benefits of of chronic sleep deprivation or or
long-term sort of detriments that can come from that versus
the long-term benefits of being really committed to your sleep.
Um, so when I'm working with athletes, that's something I
definitely address.
Like before we even get into like your performance anxiety or
whatever else we're gonna talk about, I talk about their sleep,
their nutrition, because those two things are very much
connected to, you know, their mental health, their mental
well-being, and people don't necessarily recognize that
connection, but if the research is there and it's becoming more
and more prominent.
SPEAKER_04: So obviously, you're talking about you were talking
about California whenever you were training for your first
Ultra up in uh North San Francisco.
You said North San Francisco, right?
I heard that right.
Okay.
Yeah.
Um, and you were basically like every mile marker was an awesome
achievement for you.
What what meant do you think like the your research and your
study from your past with your um sports psychology degree, do
you think that helped you like shape your mind into thinking
like every day was a great day?
You know what I'm like, yeah.
I guess I guess when out I think about it, there's definitely
days that I go out and I don't want to run 10 miles, you know
what I mean?
And like how but I love how you said I would hit 26 miles and be
like, I've never done this before, or I've been on a new
trail and never done this before.
Like, how do you bring that positivity into your run?
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think it's interesting as a sports
psychology consultant and having the the book knowledge and
training and then all the years of experience that I have, it's
like a blessing and a curse.
Um, because I understand all the concepts, I understand the
things that I can be doing to prepare myself the best I can.
But at the end of the day, I'm also still a human who does
still have emotions and you always were gonna are gonna have
good and bad days, um, whether it's with running or riding or
just life in general.
And so even though I can tell you a theory or technique, it
doesn't necessarily stop me from ever feeling like the negative
feelings that are gonna happen just as part of being a human.
Um, and I think for me, it's I one of the things that I work on
a lot with athletes and perspective taking and self-talk
and all of that is not necessarily going from negative
to positive, but from negative to productive.
Right.
And so, like if you're having a bad day, right, and it's a day
that you don't want to go and run 10 miles, and again, we all
have those days.
Um, you know, you're not gonna lie to yourself and be like,
this is gonna be great, it's gonna be wonderful, and my
body's gonna feel so good, and I'm gonna be so happy, and it's
gonna be puppies and rainbows the whole time I'm running,
right?
Like that's we're not gonna lie to ourselves and that's and that
work, right?
But being able to say, okay, you know what, I don't feel like
running, but this is an opportunity for me to get time
on my feet, to practice running when I don't feel like it,
because at mile, you know, 40 or 80, whatever distance we're
doing, right, that time's gonna come, right?
It's not a matter of if it's gonna happen, it's when it's
gonna happen.
And so, you know, one of the things I try to always think
about is, you know, whether it feels good or not, or if I'm in
a positive place, quote unquote, or not, it's well, what can I
get out of this training?
Right.
Um and I think too, you know, when I was training in
California, I did also have the benefit of being in a beautiful
place to train.
Um, I grew up in the country, I was a country kid running around
the woods, and and I so I love to be outside.
And so for me, just being out on the trails, you know, climbing
to the top of a mountain, looking down at the ocean, being
like, holy crap, like this is really, you know, beautiful.
Um, I try to really get into touch with a lot of that as
well.
Like sort of like the, you know, the the intrinsic experience of
it, where it's like I'm trying not to pay attention to the fact
that my quads are burning on fire and I'm like, but look how
beautiful this is, like, and look how much stronger, like,
look how strong you are, you know, those kinds of things.
Um, I think that that also really helped as well.
Um, and so again, not always trying to be positive about it,
but being productive about it and thinking about what can I
gain from this, and then also reminding myself that you're
never mad after you've done a run, right?
You always feel better after you've done it.
And so that's also for me to remind myself like as soon as
you finish and you walk to the car and you get your snack,
right?
You're gonna be golden and you're gonna be happy that you
did it.
Um, so yeah, just keeping those things in mind.
SPEAKER_04: It's funny.
I've got a little, I got my little note taker over here.
I already wrote down negative to changing the mindset from
negative to productive, because I love that I love that line.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
Well, if you think about it, like when you're in the slumps,
right, and you're you're frustrated about something and
somebody's like, it's okay, you can do it.
Just be positive, right?
That's not helpful.
And in fact, sometimes it just makes you even more mad, right?
And so instead of being like, Oh, you can do it, it's like,
well, what do I need to do to get it done?
And what can I gain from this if I do it, right?
And so it shifts to the so you're not denying the fact that
you're frustrated, like you can still be frustrated, but then
just switching it to like, but this is what I'm gonna get out
of it.
SPEAKER_03: That's good stuff.
Actually, one of the exciting reasons we want to talk to you
because you're like the theorist and the practitioner, at least
that's how it comes across, and our audience loves like how do
we apply it?
And quite frankly, I don't even know where to start with that,
but maybe let's start with a definition because I think it's
hard as someone watching somebody perform something to
define what mental toughness is.
Is there a either textbook definition or maybe a practical
definition that you would like to like lay out as groundwork to
build upon from here?
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
There is a book definition.
I teach it to all my grad students.
Um, and so essentially, you know, it's the idea of being
able to persevere through obstacles, um, setbacks,
whatever that might look like, right?
Uh emotionally regulating while we're doing that.
Um and then the idea of having that resilience, right?
So again, coming out on the other side, you know, maybe even
better than when you win it.
Right.
So that's kind of the the main components of of mental
toughness.
Um and so when we're working with athletes in the sport
psychology space and thinking about mindset and things like
that, our ultimate goal is to create highly self-aware and
mentally tough athletes.
Right.
Like that my my ideal practitioner work is to work
myself out of a job, right?
Like get an athlete to that space where they don't
necessarily need me anymore because they're self-aware
enough to see what's happening, understand what's happening,
notice when things are starting to get off track, make
adjustments as they need, and continue to persevere and and
stick to what their performance plan might be, right?
So, again, at that point, if all goes well, they wouldn't need me
anymore.
SPEAKER_03: I love that.
I'd love to get your take on.
Do you think maybe it's a mixture of the two?
I'll say something that the kids say these days.
He's got that dog in him, and this is gonna pull on this
thread.
So you'll it's gonna be a nature or nurture question.
Is mental toughness a personality trait that some
people naturally have, or is it a skill set that you can
develop?
So it's I'd love to get your take on like nature versus
nurture combination of the both.
SPEAKER_01: I would challenge the either or and say that it
can be an and, right?
I think that you know can have that dog in them.
You can be born with that dog in you.
You can.
Or you can develop it.
You could grow it and you could grow it up, right?
Um, and so I think that, you know, in a perfect world, right?
The ideal, if we're gonna build the ideal athlete like
Build-A-Bear, right?
They're gonna be someone who's maybe born with a natural sort
of tendency to lean towards being very resilient, very sort
of process-minded, um, and then also be in an environment that
further cultivates the development of those skills.
But, you know, let's say someone is naturally maybe not that way,
but if they're put in an environment that very much
encourages and cultivates that, we know that we can we can make
some changes.
Um, again, not to nerd off and lead you on a tangent, but if we
look at like the motivational research and we look at sort of
what we call motivational orientations in young children
and how they define success and and what motivates them, right?
And so are they motivated to like, I want to be good for
myself and I want to get better at this skill for myself, or am
I motivated by just trying to beat other people, right?
And we know that like as young kids, teachers and coaches can
actually cultivate environments that develop that one way or the
other in children, right?
And so we know that we can create environments that can can
change the way that people view success and motivation and those
kinds of things, and so very similarly, the research supports
that with mental toughness as well.
So it can be a combination of both, right?
Like if somebody's already born with some of it, that's great,
and again, it's just like any other aspect of our physical or
mental makeup, right?
We're all born with some stuff, but then we can also grow and
cultivate that as well, depending on the environment
that we're in.
SPEAKER_04: Huh.
Okay.
Going from born with it or kind of like being in that physical
environment, what are two or three things that you think
endurance athlete could take out on the trail to like help them
with let's say, quote, have that dog in them to like finish out a
trail run or a hundred-mile race, those type of things?
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
Well, I will say one thing I noticed as soon as you signed on
was your pain cave sign in the back.
SPEAKER_02: Yep.
SPEAKER_01: And we talk about the cave, right, a lot in
endurance sports.
And so I think that one thing that can be really helpful with
increasing mental toughness out on the course is like expecting
the pain cave to appear, right?
I think people like even though you know it's gonna hurt, when
it starts to hurt, you're like, oh my gosh, it's I'm starting to
get tired, my legs are starting to hurt, like maybe my nutrition
isn't all, you know, isn't going right.
And so, you know, but instead approaching it as like this is
gonna happen.
And so when it happens, what am I gonna do?
So then when you start to feel the entrance of the pain cave
sort of approaching you, right?
It's like, oh, there you are, my old friend.
How you doing?
And you've already got your plan in mind for what you're gonna
do, and so you're not trying to build the plane as you're flying
it, you've already got your solution, you've already got
your sort of plan A, your plan B, plan C.
And so it's just a matter of rolling it out and executing it.
Um, and and one of my favorite things to do with athletes in
all sports, but especially in endurance sports, because I
think this is it's not a matter of if things are gonna go
sideways, right?
At some point, it's just what miles are gonna happen, right?
Things are always gonna happen.
Um, whether it's the weather, whether it's your clothes,
whether it's your nutrition, whether it's the court, you
know, whatever, right?
Um I remember I did the Mississippi 50, I think it was
two years ago when it had rained a ton, right?
And after my shoes had gotten sucked off for like the 20th
time, right?
I was just like, just accept it.
Like, it's gonna happen.
So just when they come off, here's how you're gonna tie
them, and like just make a plan, right?
Um, but so this idea of fire drills, right?
And so, like when we were little kids, right, we'd practice like,
okay, if the fire comes, here's how we're gonna walk out, and we
go sit on the field, right?
And we loved it.
Um, but thinking about that for your race, right?
Like, what are all the things that could happen?
And then I make a plan for each one of those things.
And so if and when it happens, then you're just like, oh, okay,
well, yeah, this kind of sucks, but I've already got a plan to
handle it, and we move on, right?
Versus like, oh my god, I brought four gels and I needed
five gels, and oh my, what am I gonna do?
You know, it's like, nope, it's okay.
We have a plan.
And that and then that emotional regulation piece then comes
after that, right?
If we have a plan.
And I think too, with endurance athletes, you know, one thing
that's really important again with any athlete, but I think
especially with endurance athletes because we're out there
for so long, is this perception of control.
Um, and the sense of like, I'm still in the driver's seat, I'm
still running my race plan, I'm still like, you know, doing the
things I want to do.
Because the minute things start to go sideways, then we start to
feel like we're losing control and things are the wheels are
falling off, right?
Things are spiraling, and we start to get into that panic
mindset, and then it start that's when it starts to fall
apart, right?
And so, you know, sort of thinking proactively about here
are all the things that could happen.
And then, therefore, if I have a plan for all the things that
might happen, then I feel like I'm in control before I even
start, which is gonna make me feel more confident.
And then when I'm out on the course, whatever thing that
might go wrong, I've potentially most likely already thought
about it.
And so then it's just like execute that plan and then I
keep going forward, right?
Um, I think those are again, that was maybe a very long
answer to your short question.
Um, but just a couple things to think about that I think about,
but then that I also try to instill in all of the athletes
that I'm working with.
SPEAKER_04: Okay.
Do you feel like um you're talking about a plan?
And here's something that I've noticed when it comes to like
racing.
First triathlon I ever did, I was an anxious, nervous wreck
leading up to the race.
First ultra marathon I ever did, I was the same way.
And then the back half of that, the more I've done, the more I
guess I'm gonna say confident I've gotten and knowing what I
need.
Do you feel like anxiety helps or hurts the majority of
athletes?
Like pre-race anxiety, I should say.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think that ultimately it depends on how the
athlete perceives the anxiety.
Um, and so, but I would I would say to back up one step, in a
very general statement, I would say more than likely it's gonna
be a hindrance.
But, you know, if you're able to sort of view the anxiety as I'm
excited and like I'm about to go do something big, so I should be
anxious, right?
Like it's almost more concerning if you're not anxious, right?
Um, and like when I talk to athletes, especially, you know,
here in Kentucky, we've got a lot of high-level athletes here
at UK, and and I'm like, you're at one of the top sport schools
in the country.
If you're not nervous, there's something wrong with you.
Like you should be anxious, right?
Like you should be feeling like you're going to do something
big, and also this is telling you that you care about it,
right?
And so being able to sort of reappraise, and one of the big
myths is that like in order to have your best performance,
you're not gonna feel anxious at all.
And that's just not that's not realistic, right?
You're always going to feel anxious.
And what's interesting is, and again, not to nerd out too much
with you guys, but you know, if we look at sort of the
mechanisms of anxiety and why anxiety can hurt athletic
performance, it's actually an intentional problem, not an
anxiety problem.
Because what happens is you're so focused on feeling anxious
that you're not focused on what you need to be doing to execute
your sport, right?
And so just because the anxiety is there doesn't mean that it
necessarily is going to impact your performance, but it's
you're focusing on the anxiety because anxiety is
uncomfortable, right?
And so you're like, oh, this sucks.
I got butterflies and now I feel jittery and my hands are sweaty,
or oh my gosh, you know, and so but that focus is what then
takes your attention away from actually just executing your
plan.
And so I talk about anxiety as just sort of like your uninvited
passenger, right?
Like you just accept it.
And, you know, and again, with my college students, my college
athletes, I talk a lot about like the uninvited guest to the
party because they party analogies they could connect
with, right?
You and you would you you know plan a whole party and you
invite everybody that you want to come, right?
So that's gonna be like your nutrition, your rest, your game
plan, your confidence, right?
All those kinds of things.
But then there's always an uninvited guest who shows up to
the party, Mrs.
Anxiety or Mr.
Anxiety, right?
And just because they show up to the party doesn't mean they get
to ruin the party.
Like you can decide if you want to let them ruin the party.
You can just acknowledge it and be like, oh, the random person
showed up all the who's never invited, right?
I can just acknowledge that the anxiety's there, but then go
back to focusing on my race plan.
And so it's not like you're trying to do it, like get rid of
anxiety to perform.
You can perform with the anxiety just sitting in the backseat.
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, and it's it's funny because I asked that
question.
I can think of in the past probably month, three different
people that I've noticed have anxiety at different levels of
at different stages.
Like we had a guy that did uh that Zach and I went and helped
do Sedona 125 with before the race.
I mean, he was going over everything that he needed
nutrition-wise, probably five, ten times.
And you're just we're just like, hey, we got you.
It's 125 miles.
You brought us here to do this for you.
Like, stop thinking about that.
Focus on the race, like, don't worry about this.
And then I've just spoken with somebody this weekend who signed
up for Zion 100 with Zach and I, and he was like, I got
goosebumps for the first time since I've done an iron a full
Iron Man or uh the Unbound 200.
And I was like, Awesome, you know what I mean?
Like, why are we doing these these big events if we're not
getting goosebumps and not getting excited about them?
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
No, and I think it yeah, it just comes down to all and how you
perceive it, and that anxiety doesn't necessarily have to
always be a negative thing, or it doesn't have to be something
that's gonna derail you.
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I I like the way you like the way you talk
about it also is like put it in a bucket, you know it's gonna be
there.
You got a hundred percent.
My my wife and I talk about can you give in our marriage?
Can you give a hundred percent?
If I can give eighty and she can give twenty that day, we're
giving a hundred percent.
You're saying it the same way as anxiety of like, hey, just give
it 10, don't give it a whole 90%.
You know what I mean?
So I think that's a great, a great method.
SPEAKER_03: Zach, you got anything for I've got a lot of
things on my joy jells back and forth there taking notes.
Um Dr.
Ashley, is there anything specific we as athletes can do
in training to be more adaptable to in-race moments?
Because I love I love all of what you're saying.
I'm really resonating with a lot of it.
And as I get older, I keep thinking like there's no
replacement for experience.
But I guess on the mental side of things, I've been able to
simulate things in my head before I've actually done them
before, when I've gone down my own kind of rabbit hole on
mental training, and I I think I read where it you can create
synapses in your brain before you actually ever do anything.
I actually believe that because I've done that before my first
hundred miles, and I've never been on more fire, like there's
no way I feel this way, but I guess my brain had actually been
there a thousand times, despite the fact my body had never
physically been there before.
So I'm a believer.
But is there anything like practical takeaways that we
could be doing as athletes to train that adaptability piece?
I'm speaking for the audience who's not able to go out and run
80 miles before they might run a hundred miles.
What can we do?
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
Well, I'll just speak to your experience really quickly with
using imagery and visualization.
Um, the science backs up everything that you're saying,
um, which is why it's super cool.
And when I talk about it, I try not to nerd out too much to the
athletes when I'm trying to sell them on it because they're just
like, okay.
Um, but it really does actually create neural pathways in your
brain as if you were physically doing the thing.
And so I would say, like, for someone who can't go out and do
sort of training like they would on the course that they're gonna
run or get some of those longer distances, you know, I would say
like doing visualization, you know, spending time like like
visualize being in the pain cave and how much it's gonna suck and
what you're gonna do to get through it, and visualize like
doing that big climb at mile 75, like you know, going through all
of those, like I said, like the fire drills pieces, like
visualizing all of that and visualizing how am I going to
get through it, right?
And spending time like really intentionally, you know, it's
not like oh, I'm gonna spend two minutes, but it's like I'm gonna
sit down and spend 10 minutes, right?
And it's and that might not even seem like that much time, but
for someone who can sit down really intentionally for like a
focused 10-15 minutes, you can do a lot of good work there.
Um, you know, with the with the gymnasts and stuff that we work
with, you know, they can't do their skills to fatigue because
it becomes dangerous, right?
Like you don't want somebody doing a backflip on a beam on
tired legs, right?
They can only do so many reps physically before they have to
then sit down and do some mental reps, right?
Um and so I would say really just, you know, doing the
visualization piece, I think again, to whatever extent you
can, trying to replicate the physical conditions that you
can, you know, if you know you're gonna be um, you know,
doing a lot of climbing on your course and you live in, you
know, somewhere like southern Mississippi or southern
Louisiana where I grew up where there's like not a hill, the
hills are speed bumps, um, you know, like getting on the stair
master, doing things to challenge your body in ways that
are gonna be as similar as you can.
Um, you know, because I think one thing when we talk about,
and you guys have talked a little bit around this idea of
experience, um, a lot of my early research was looking at
self-efficacy, which is essentially like very specific
self-confidence.
And so, you know, one of the things that came out of my
research and then the previous research has been done in this
area is that one of the biggest influences on our
self-confidence is that previous experience, right?
The minute we're faced with a challenge, the first thing we do
is we look back and say, have I done something like this in the
past and have I been successful?
Right.
And so even if I can't do the exact thing, how similar can I
get to whatever it is that I might be going to do, right?
And so we talk about like, you know, again in the south, using
like the heat training to help compensate for the altitude
training, you know, getting on the stairmaster if I can't get
to the hills to do hill repeats, um, you know, spending time in
the weight room just getting stronger if I know I'm gonna be
doing a lot of climbing.
And so trying to just like find ways that you can control the
controllables, right?
Things that you can be in control of so that, yeah, when
it comes to the race, I know that like probably 80% of the
things I could have controlled, but then I also have to accept
that there's gonna be 20% that I'm just gonna have to wing it
and trust myself and trust my training that I can do it,
right?
And and this moves a little bit more into kind of some of my
like yogi training and all of that.
Um, because I do teach mindfulness and yoga as well to
athletes, and I very much weave in the sports psych and the yoga
principles and mindfulness and all of that, but just sort of
the the A, I'm grateful to be here, so that gratitude piece,
but then also like faith in yourself that like I trust my
training, I trust that I can be here, that I'm strong enough to
be able to do this.
And and for some people that's maybe a little bit harder of a
reach.
Um, but again, you know, trying to really trust and think back
to like all those hours I did spend on the stairmaster, that's
gonna help me get up this mountain, right?
All the time I did spend running in that southern humidity,
that's gonna help me with this altitude.
And so really trying to make those connections so that I can
feel like, okay, I am prepared to be here.
I did train for this, you know.
Why not me?
Like, why not go and have a good finish, right?
Yes, it's gonna be hard, but that's okay.
SPEAKER_03: I love it.
I love this self-efficacy stuff, efficacy stuff, Anthony.
Do you have any questions?
I keep thinking about what you said and how real true that is.
Like Joe Rogan talks about to what you were saying, the visual
I was getting was like adding another layer of paint on the
mountain of like your undeniable stack of proof on yourself.
And you're and you're right, right?
We see it all the time.
People set goals from themselves, and then when they
crush this such a stretch goal for themselves, it's like that's
now the new baseline.
And their relationship with that is like never looking back to
that, right?
Not even thinking twice about it.
And if you just think about that for a second from a realistic
standpoint, it's like, hmm, how much higher should we be
shooting in potentially on that goal?
And why do we put these self-limiting beliefs on
ourselves sometimes, you know?
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
Well, I think a lot of it it comes from, I mean, just the way
that our brains are wired, to be fair.
I mean, we're wired at a very primitive, I call it our caveman
brain, we're wired to approach pleasure and avoid pain and and
like mental pain or physical pain, right?
And so, you know, sometimes we can put those self-limiting
beliefs on ourselves as like a protective mechanism because
it's like, well, if I put this big stretch goal out there and I
don't reach it, that's gonna be painful, that's gonna hurt,
that's gonna suck, right?
And so sometimes it can be it can be scary to go for those
goals, which to go back to Anthony's point earlier about
the anxiety piece.
I mean, that can be another reason why we can feel that
anxiety, because it's like I'm about to step off the edge of my
comfort zone and and really put myself out there, and I might do
great or I might not.
And if I don't, it's gonna suck and it's gonna hurt, you know.
And so that's our brain, you know, naturally is like, no,
don't do that.
Like, stay in your comfort zone where everything is soft and
cushy and good and feels nice all the time, you know.
SPEAKER_04: And when we push out of that comfort zone, you know,
we're putting ourselves sort of at risk, if you will, to
potentially have a painful mental experience because we
didn't reach a goal that we didn't, you know, we wanted to
go for I I I would be remiss to not ask you this because my wife
is a yogi person as well.
Um, and as the stiffest person to be in Mississippi, probably.
Um, what do you feel like?
Is it do you think that there is any good or anything that you
could teach um endurance athletes basically from a
mindfulness standpoint that you're teaching that uh your D1
athletes as well?
I'm not I'm probably not asking this as well because I'm writing
down a whole bunch of notes, but essentially I want to know what
would translate from what you're teaching these D1 athletes in
your yoga sessions to our endurance athletes that are
gonna listen to this podcast.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, for sure.
Um so when I talk about mindfulness, it's interesting.
Um, and it's gotten a lot more sort of mainstream now.
When I first started talking about this 15 years ago, they're
like, oh no, here comes Dr.
S with all her woo-woo stuff.
Um but you know, when we think about mindfulness, it really,
really boils down to being in the present moment on purpose.
That's all it really is, right?
And so, you know, when I first started working with athletes, I
really came from a perspective of like a like a mental toolbox,
right?
Like I'm gonna teach you all these skills and then you can
pull them out when you need them, right?
Whenever problems arise.
But I really, as I sort of went more into my own mindfulness and
yoga teacher journey and all of that, um, so I guess I am kind
of woo-woo now.
I realized that um, you know, if the athletes aren't self-aware
and in the present moment, they don't even know that a problem
is happening yet, let alone what tool to use to get themselves
out of that problem.
And so I've really, really sort of woven a lot more mindfulness
philosophy into the work that I do with athletes.
And so I would say probably the number one first thing that I
really work on with athletes is sort of self-awareness, like
recognizing when you're in the present moment versus when
you're thinking about and ruminating about something in
the past or stressing out about something that might happen in
the future.
Um, you know, so being able to bring themselves into the
present moment.
And then secondly, the which I think is equally important, so I
don't even want to call it second, but just in that's the
order that it happens in, is noticing without judgment.
So like observing what's happening versus judging what's
happening, right?
And so, for example, with an endurance runner, it would be,
oh, like my quads are starting to get really tired or my glutes
are starting to hurt, or you know, I feel my I feel my left
calf a little bit more, right?
So noticing it, but not like, oh my god, my legs are starting to
hurt, right?
And and attaching some sort of emotional reaction to it and
just noticing what's happening and then sort of making a plan
so that we learn how to respond.
To situations versus react to situations.
And I think again, as an endurance runner, it's to me, I
mean, in my own experience, it's been like the ultimate test of
being able to stay in that space.
Right.
Um, because you might be great for the first like 20, 30 miles,
you know, and you're all happy and doing your thing, but then,
you know, like when you start to strip away the layers as you get
more tired and more miles in, continually bringing yourself
back to that place of like, I'm just noticing, this is what's
happening, what should I do about it?
Like those kinds of things versus, oh my god, this is
happening, I've got to fix it right now.
And oh my gosh, this means I'm not gonna, you know, get to mile
70 or whatever, you know.
And so, you know, being able to stay present and just notice and
respond versus you know, notice and freak out, basically.
SPEAKER_03: Do you have I gotta hop in and interrupt, Anthony,
because you just put your thumb on something I'm so fascinated
by.
And and I you know what I'll ask appointed questions like if you
have any books or papers of yours or anything that I in our
audience can read on about what you just said.
It it sticks out to me.
Noticing without judging, it's almost like you become aware of
a reaction that you want to have, and you separate yourself
from the automatic reaction you want to have, and you stay in
what you're doing.
I resonate with this.
This happens to me almost weekly, Anthony, and just doing
like reps and workouts.
I was getting there when you said that.
First couple not there, third through ten.
I'm like, hmm, I'm working here, I'm not responding to how I want
to.
And you you can almost turn that into some kind of flow state.
I I can't explain it, but there's a detachment of how you
want to react to how you are reacting and staying in it.
I don't know if I got anywhere with that summary, but is that
real?
Is there more data?
Is there a book maybe you can recommend?
Because I'm fascinated with that concept.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, there's tons of data.
If you look up like mindfulness for sport performance, if you
just throw it in Google, there is so much data out there um
that's coming out about it.
And one book that I love that I recommend to a lot of my
athletes, especially my male athletes who might be a little
bit less open to the idea of mindfulness, right?
Because of just some of those old associations with it, um, is
called The Mindful Athlete by George Mumford.
Um, and he is uh a mindfulness teacher.
He worked with uh Jordan during his era with the Bulls.
He's worked with the Knicks, the Lakers, he worked with Shaq and
Kobe and all of those guys back in the day.
Um, and he has a book that it's part of it is is his own story
into mindfulness, but then also just talking about it from a
very practical real.
It's very conversational.
Um, there's a lot of curse words in it, you know.
Um, so it feels like you're just having a conversation with like
a dude, um, if you will.
But it's it's you know, just talking about a lot of these
concepts, and and because again, sometimes we can have these, you
know, oh, mindfulness and you know, all of that, and it you
know, it seems kind of soft and woo-woo, and you're like, no,
I'm a tough real athlete, right?
But like then you have people like LeBron talking about how
like you know that's made such a difference in in his play of the
ability to be able to like filter out the noise, and it's
like no matter what's happening around here, it's like in here
we're always quiet, right?
And we're just you know, the one thing I always like to talk
about are I like a lot of like slogans and mantras and things
like that because they're just easy for athletes to remember.
And it's just attune and adjust.
Attune and adjust, attune and adjust, right?
And so it's like I'm attuning to what's happening, and then I'm
just adjusting, right?
So it's not a right or wrong, a good or bad.
It's just making an adjustment, right?
And it like it's no different than like when you're driving
your car and you realize like, oh, I'm going a little fast, and
so you just take your foot off the gas.
Like you don't think about it, you don't put a value to that,
right?
You're not like, oh, I'm such a bad driver because I was, you
know, going a little fast, or you know, it's like you just
take your foot off the gas a little bit and then you get to
where you want to go and continue on.
Um, you know, and so it's just that attunement and adjustment,
and you know, tune and adjust, attune and adjust.
And um, I've even for myself, sometimes when I've been out on
long runs, and I'll even just say that in in tune with my
steps, just to give me something to to kind of focus in on.
Um, and like you said, sometimes that can help, you know, getting
into that flow state.
And I think, you know, going back to some of the practical
stuff to to kind of be in that more mindful space when you're
out on those long endurance runs, you know, maybe finding a
mantra or finding some sort of phrase that really resonates
with you.
Um, you know, again, one thing I say to myself when I'm doing a
lot of technical trail running is I'm just like mountain goat,
mountain goat, mountain goat.
Like in my own mind, like thinking like step like a
mountain goat, you know, so you don't trip and die.
Like just it's just I just think about that visual, and it's kind
of silly, but it also helps break that tension and give me
something to sort of like, okay, think about like how would a
mountain goat go up this, right?
And so, like quick steps and and really, you know, and so it's it
again, it sounds silly, but it's the idea of just sort of keeping
your mind directed in the direction that you want it to
go, right?
It's not about controlling your mind, it's just about sort of
redirecting it into the direction and space you want it
to be in.
SPEAKER_04: You know, I could take this many different ways
just based off of the past two questions, but I will say you're
talking about um George Mumford, the book that George Mumford
wrote.
I have noticed a direct correlation with a lot of um
like professional athletes nowadays where I didn't see this
back in let's say early 2000s.
I'm thinking like whenever I grew up as a child watching Ken
Griffey, Mark McGuire, Tiger Woods, all these people talking
about it.
They didn't talk about it.
No, they didn't talk about the mindfulness of this stuff, but
I'm seeing a lot more athletes that are, you know, essentially
a sports psychologist is a part of their everyday regimen.
Like I watch um, I'm I'm played golf in college, have some have
some golf knowledge and background, and I watch the
docum docu-series on Netflix where they're talking with the
PGA tour players, and a bunch of those PGA tour players, they
have a sports psychologist that travel with them, stay in the
same house or whatever, and like through every practice round
talk with them.
Are you seeing a huge, I guess, spike in sports psychology when
it comes to that for professional athletes where it's
just an everyday thing for all of these athletes to now have?
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I would say it's I don't know if it's
necessarily a spike, but it's been a very steep mountain, if
you will.
Um, I think that, you know, more and more athletes are realizing
that that's an essential piece of whole athlete development,
right?
Just like we talk about the strength and conditioning work,
the sport-specific work, your nutrition work, all of your like
preventative, you know, rehab, prehab stuff.
You know, they're recognizing that the mental side of things
is just as important.
Um, and especially when you get to the higher level.
So when you get to these high-level D1 colleges or
professional teams, you know, everybody's fast, everybody's
strong, everybody's got all the skills.
So that's not really gonna help you at that point.
What's gonna set you apart is being able to mentally handle
the pressure, the the changes that come with, you know,
especially going from like high school to D1 or even D1 into the
pros, you know, handling the just the leveling up of all of
the all of the noise, if you will.
Um, you know, it's really interesting.
One of my close friends is one of the sports psychologists for
USA Track and Field.
And people always want to ask her, oh, what do you work with
all those, you know, the the Olympic athletes on?
And and it's it's not about like how to explode out of the blocks
or or this or anything physical, right?
At that point, they know how to do all that.
What they focus on is the being able to quiet the noise and know
that no matter what is happening outside of me, what side of the
world I'm on, what time zone, whatever, right?
That what's happening inside of me is consistent every day,
right?
And so being able to sort of quiet that noise.
And I think too, it's you know, on a you know, bit of a segue
from the sport performance, you know, sport psychology side of
things to the mental health side of things is that you know,
we've had so many athletes come out and talk about mental health
struggles and and recognizing that, yeah, like you know, they
have struggles just like any other human does, right?
And if they're anxious or they're dealing with depression
or anything like that, I mean that's gonna affect their play.
And so, you know, not only just for their own mental well-being,
you know, but then on the performance side of things as
well, it's becoming a lot more talked about and it's a lot more
um accepted as just part of a normal holistic athlete training
program, which is great for us.
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, oh yeah, absolutely.
I also think that that goes back to a self-awareness thing
because I do think that you see a lot of athletes and student
athletes in general that breeze through let's say they're let's
say they're in a top-performing SEC school.
They breeze through those four years of SEC performance and
they don't actually think about what those four years mean to
them, and like there's potential that they'll never be in the
locker room with those guys again, and like that's where I I
tend to like hear and see about depression after these kids get
out of college.
What do you for those people that you're already kind of
telling, you're already talking to these athletes about?
You see people like myself and Zach that get hurt, let's say
we've got hamstring problems or we've got quad problems,
whatever it be, we can't go run.
Like I'm telling you right now, if Zach broke his leg, actually,
and needed to like I there's potential of seeing him hobble
down 98, and I don't know if you're familiar with how he's I
am, I know exactly what you're talking about.
Literally to get his run in.
I've never seen it.
We were we were on vacation, we were on a trip a few weeks ago,
it was three o'clock in the afternoon, and he was like
itching his neck trying to get his run in, you know, like okay.
So, what back to my question what is a good correlation or
what is a good thing for somebody for you to tell
somebody that is a Zach that can't, let's say, gets hurt and
can't go run for him to think about during that time of like
self-awareness and and mindfulness.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so to kind of take it back to where you
started with and and thinking about these college athletes and
you know, spending their four years and then they graduate and
they can enter into this you know depression state.
One of the things that's really related to that is this concept
of athletic identity, right?
Like you define yourself as this athlete, and then all of a
sudden you're not that athlete, and then all of a sudden there's
like this existential crisis of like, well, who am I?
Right?
Like, what value do I bring to the world?
You know, like how do people know me if I'm not the
basketball player or whatever?
Um, and so one of the things that, and I've actually had one
of my grad students do her master's thesis on this a couple
of years ago was kind of fun.
And one of the things that we found that's a good preventative
for that is when they have a more well-rounded identity,
right?
And so, like when we talk about like multi-sport athletes versus
single sport athletes, right?
Multi-sport athletes across the board tend to be better off
mentally because their eggs aren't all in one basket, right?
And their their identity can be multifaceted or not even
multi-sport, but like multi-activity, right?
And so, you know, you might have someone who is a basketball
player, but then they also like poetry and art and they have a
job somewhere else.
And so they've got these sort of different facets of themselves
so that if one goes away, it's not like they're just left
hanging.
Um, now that's very hard in terms of reality when you think
about these D1 athletes, right?
Because to get to play at the D1 athlete, you know, D1 level, and
I'm thinking like Kentucky basketball, right?
Like their whole life has been preparing them to get to that
level.
And so that hasn't really fostered a lot of other things
to be developed in terms of how they define themselves.
But when I'm talking to like the parents of youth athletes,
that's one thing that I always talk about is like make sure
that your kid has other things besides being an athlete.
Um, and I even know for myself, with with just balancing, you
know, competitive equestrian and running, that if running's not
going so great, I kind of lean into the horses a little bit
more.
And if the horses aren't going so great, I kind of lean into
the, you know, the running a little bit more, um, you know,
just to kind of find that balance.
And so, you know, when you are dealing with something like an
injury, um, you know, you can truly see it, again, maybe not
on a conscious level, but it's like an identity threat, right?
Because if your whole lifestyle is based on being a runner, like
both mentally, that's how you view it, but then also
literally, your that's your whole days are structured around
running and and weekends around going to races and those kinds
of things.
If we get injured, that goes away, then all of a sudden it
feels like the rug got pulled out from under you, right?
And then there's this big hole.
Um, and that can lead to some sort of dark emotional spaces
for athletes.
Um and so again, like I I like to be more of like a prevention
versus treatment type of philosophy, right?
Of having that multifaceted identity to begin with.
So when something like this happens, because we're always
we're gonna get injured at some point, right?
You've got other things to to lean into.
Um, or you know, if we find ourselves in that place, like
being able to see it as an opportunity to grow in other
ways that maybe you wouldn't have had the chance to do
otherwise.
And so, for example, I'm thinking of like an athlete that
I'm working with right now who is a soccer goalkeeper.
They hurt their knee.
Um, so obviously they're out for a while, but then they've talked
about how they want to get stronger in their core and upper
body.
And so I'm like, okay, so this is an opportunity for you to
work on your core and upper body that you wouldn't have done
normally if you would have just been able to keep playing
soccer, right?
And so seeing it as like, you know, especially when we have an
injury, when it's something like that that we can't control, you
know, I kind of have a little bit of like the tough love talk
of like, look, we can get through it and be miserable the
whole time, or you can get through it and come out better
on the other side, right?
Either way, we gotta go through it.
You just get to choose what movie is gonna roll out at the
end, right?
And so, um, you know, yeah, like you can be miserable and say
that this sucks the whole time, or you can lean in and say,
Okay, well, what what can I get out of this?
And so again, it's kind of going all the way back around to that,
you know, going from negative to productive.
SPEAKER_04: I love it.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
SPEAKER_04: Zach, you got anything for us?
SPEAKER_03: One of the beautiful things about talking to smart
people like yourself, Ashley, is you can condense a lot of stuff
down really good.
So without going line by line, maybe I ask it this way: is
there one of your either papers or athlete experience you've
worked with that you're either most proud of or that you had a
thought going into it and the data or science proved otherwise
after you've tested it?
Or is there greatest hits?
I'm I'm really kind of teeing you up.
What I'm trying to say is anything that you're really
excited about that you've discovered throughout all your
long lists of history that you want to talk about, we love that
stuff, so lay it on us.
SPEAKER_01: Oh my gosh.
Um, I would say one of my most fun studies to do uh was a paper
that we published in 2015 um looking at the think aloud
protocol in distance runners.
Um and so this was sort of a uh was supposed to just be kind of
a fun side project, but then it turned into a bigger study, and
then when it got published, it got a lot of attention, and I
was able to be on like NPR and and a bunch of different news
outlets, and that was kind of fun.
Um But essentially the think aloud protocol, it has like
people are mic'd up and they're doing their task and they're
just literally thinking out loud while they're doing it.
And so in sports, this has been used in shorter term tasks like
a baseball pitch or a golf putt or like a shot and pool.
Um, but then I was with a group of researchers, some friends of
mine, and we were all runners, and so we're like, I wonder if
we could mic up runners and just see like what do they talk
about?
And so we did it.
And so we had, I think, 10 runners for the first study, um,
where we had them mic'd up when they would go out on like their
20 mile runs.
And we so we had hours and hours and hours of them running and
talking out loud and just verbalizing whatever was going
through their mind.
Um, and we got some pretty cool, pretty cool information and just
just learning about what do different people think about.
And I think, you know, from a from a practitioner standpoint
of like where I could do interventions, it's really
helpful to see like what happens when people start to hit the
wall, and then what strategies are they using to get through it
or not, right?
And so then that provides again good information for me as a
practitioner to help them better handle it next time around.
Um, and so we did a couple iterations of that study.
And I have one that I haven't published yet where we had the
same runners do multiple runs.
And so looking at kind of what they think about over time,
like, what do you think about when you run?
You know, it's kind of a fun question.
And it's interesting because it's about half and half in
terms of like actual run focused, like pacing strategy,
fueling form, you know, those kinds of things.
And then the other half of it is is just the oh, I have to
remember to pick up dog food, or you know, one of the data
collections that we did was around the holidays.
And so people were talking about like Christmas lists and holiday
parties and this and that.
And um and so it was really interesting to to kind of get a
glimpse into that.
And and now being here in Kentucky, I've been taking
advantage of my access to equestrians, and so we've
actually just submitted a sp a paper where we did the same
thing with equestrians and had them go and ride their horses
and just think out loud while they're riding, which is
interesting because that brings in a whole nother layer of them
having to not only manage themselves, but manage the horse
that's underneath them.
Um, so that's just been kind of some of the fun stuff that I've
that I've been working on.
Um, but the the think aloud with the runner papers, there's two
of them that are out um that people can read if they're
interested in, if you want to really get into the the nerdy
science of it.
SPEAKER_04: Nope.
Love that.
Zach, you got anything else on that?
SPEAKER_03: Oh no, that's it.
That was fun.
That was fun.
SPEAKER_04: I would I would love to read that paper.
We actually Zach and I both talked about that paper earlier
earlier today, whenever we were doing it.
SPEAKER_02: I can send it to you.
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, doing our research before this.
I'm gonna be remiss if we we typically like to keep people in
an at an hour, actually.
But I'm gonna give a few more minutes because I know Zach is
dying to ask some questions about Strava.
If you have some information about it, I'm sure Zach would
love to ask a few questions.
I'll probably jump in on a few as well.
But Zach, this is your segment.
Take it away.
SPEAKER_03: Oh, I was just gonna ask a couple silly ones.
Basically, I've never seen somebody with a Strava
affiliation on their profile.
So um, are you in a position to take our recommendations and in
effect change at Strava?
I am not.
SPEAKER_01: Um, it's really funny, and I totally forgot that
that's on there.
Um so I got contacted by Strava, I don't even remember, years
ago.
Um, and they were trying to launch a whole new campaign of
like why we run.
And so they they got into some of my research looking at like
the motivation of runners and why people run and those kinds
of things.
Um, because that was some of my initial research that then led
into some of the think aloud stuff.
And um, and so I helped them with a campaign that they were
talking about, like why people run, and really getting to it
getting into more of like the intrinsic aspects of it.
Um because I think they were recognizing that you know Strava
itself is is external metrics, right?
It's it's a bunch of data, and so sometimes people can get too
focused on that.
Um, and so they wanted to kind of bring in more of like the
intrinsic piece of it as well.
Um ironically, I will say, and this might be a hot take, people
might hate this, but I am I'm not on Strava.
And I and I don't I don't love Strava.
Um from a mental health and sports psych perspective, and
there's some data to support this that Strava can actually be
detrimental um to mental health in terms of there's the compare
for all the same reasons as social media is bad,
essentially, right?
There's a comparison piece, there's people who will go out
and do their recovery runs harder.
Than they're supposed to be because they want to post the
good numbers, or they see, you know, Zach sees Anthony post his
Strava run, and then he's like, Well, I gotta go out and do
faster splits than that.
Um you know, there can definitely be some comparison,
people can over-train from it.
Um, and then like with injury recovery, also it can be
problematic as people will again do more.
And so I have very mixed feelings about you know, about
it.
I think if you use it as a tool and as just sort of like a
motivation, I think it's great.
The people who are so addicted to Strava that they can't even
like lock the dog without putting it.
And I know I'm I'm probably preaching to the choir here.
SPEAKER_03: If he's rolling here, audience hop in with I'm
just gonna keep laughing.
SPEAKER_04: Let me go.
No, it's just so funny because I know that Zach and I have
probably been every single stereotype that you have
mentioned, and we've probably also complained about every
single every single stereotype that you've mentioned as well.
But I was gonna ask you that because I do I do tend to see a
lot of people that like you have a you have a huge mix of people
where some will post every single thing that they do on the
app, and then some will also post like they'll never post.
Like we have a we have a buddy that we've interviewed a few
times who will post like once a year for a week, and that's all
he does, you know.
But he doesn't but he also doesn't like telling people his
secrets, like Zach.
Pretty much Zach, tell me if I'm wrong, unless you hide it.
Pretty much anybody can see what you're doing on a weekly basis,
data-wise.
So, like if Zach was a competitive runner, they now
have the competitive advantage.
Zach and I also probably feel like we have to do a little bit
more posting because we have the podcast and the social platform.
However, it's just one of those things that we see a lot of.
Do you think that people that post like every single day and
do like every single thing?
I you may not know this, you may.
Do you feel like those people are probably gonna tend to burn
out faster than the person that's never posting on Strava?
And burnout, I mean not from Strava, but from running an
endurance.
SPEAKER_01: Um, I mean, I think it it really depends on what the
purpose of them posting that every day.
I mean, I think we could draw a lot of parallels to the same
person that posts every single day on Instagram, right?
And so I think it's just like how on Instagram you can be
cultivating this image of yourself, right?
I think on Strava it can be that as well.
Um, but it all really depends on just what your view of the
purpose of it is, right?
If it is just is it if it is for you to just have somewhere where
all of your data stays so that you can look at it and it just
happens that other people can look at it too, then like that's
fine, right?
But if you're posting it for the external feedback, um, like I
knew someone who was a cyclist and they were I mean, this is
the person I was talking about when they wouldn't walk the dog
without without like starting their Strava.
Um and they would literally get back from a ride and sit there
and see how many kudos they got.
Like, you know.
And so it's like, I don't know that that's necessarily healthy,
right?
Like if you're doing it just to get the external feedback, or if
it's more of just like a it's a part of a community, um, again,
I think it's the same way we treat sort of other social media
platforms.
Like if you're doing it just to connect with friends and send
them funny things and you guys congratulate each other and
things like that, like that's fine.
But if again it's it's a part of your definition of yourself and
it factors into your self-worth, then I think that's sort of
crosses a line to, you know, maybe an unhealthy space.
And and I and I do think that, you know, when we're in that
space, that can potentially lead to burnout.
Um, you know, because again, our tolerance for everything goes up
the more that we do it.
And so it's like, oh, I only got 20 likes this time, you know,
and then six months later it's like, oh, I only got 50 likes,
you know.
And so it's I think you know, keeping it within a realistic,
you know, whatever I'm using it for is not defining me or my
worth or my performance as an athlete.
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
I think that um I I totally agree with you.
Sometimes I wish I could go like kind of like our guy that does
it once a year, just go dart for a while and just never post once
a year like that.
Because I honestly I find that more enjoyable and more funny
than posting every day about everything, you know what I
mean?
Like, I'm always excited to see when he actually does post.
SPEAKER_01: But yeah, they're like, oh, something's going on.
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, like I'm like, all right, he's wanting to show
everybody what he's got kind of thing.
But it's just it's funny to see.
Um any other Zach, any other questions about Strava before we
uh jump off?
SPEAKER_03: Can we agree when elite riders use Strava getting
ready for the tour and they never have their power numbers
up there?
And then magically one day it appears they're sending the
signal to all their competition.
That's no mistake, in my opinion.
SPEAKER_01: They're just they're just letting put that out there.
SPEAKER_03: A little flex here.
SPEAKER_04: Okay I wish uh I wish they had to do it though,
you know, sometimes just because I'd like to see comparisons, but
whatever.
Agree.
That's just selfish me.
SPEAKER_01: You're just nosy, yeah.
SPEAKER_04: Exactly.
Well, Ashley, we appreciate you for so much for coming on.
This was an awesome podcast.
I'm sure people are gonna want to hear from you again, so we
may be reaching out soon to talk to you.
SPEAKER_01: I love doing this kind of stuff.
I can nerd out on Sportsy all day long.
SPEAKER_03: We're gonna have to have you on retainer like once a
quarter.
SPEAKER_04: I feel like touch the top surface of everything
you we had to talk about today.
SPEAKER_01: I know.
Yeah, well, and I come down somewhat regularly because my
parents are still down south, so I can uh I can we can do it in
person.
SPEAKER_04: Love it.
We just did our first person, our first in-person.
This is like we've been going for like a year and a little few
months now.
First in person, we've loved it.
It was like the best podcast experience ever.
So we're we'll definitely take you up on that whenever you come
down.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, sounds great.
SPEAKER_04: Thank you so much.
SPEAKER_00: Turn it up.
Yeah, from back rows to start lines, early mornings, late
nights, miles on the pavement, head down, chasing daylight.
Mississippi heartbeat, sweat mixed with the grind, pain in
the legs, but it's all in the mind, endurance state of mind
where the weak don't last.
Ultra miles, long rides.
We're built for the past and the future, no shortcuts, no
skipping the test.
When you spoiled it, your punishment give it your best.
From five K's to hundreds, trail dust in our lungs.
Every story earned, every finish, hard one, no hype, just
truth.
No filters, no cap.
If you suffer for growth, yeah, this podcast is that hosted by
the miles, not the fame or the shine.
If you know, then you know.
Endurance, state of mind.