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Scotland Icon Kenny Logan Tells All | From Adversity to Rugby's Biggest Era of Change

Kenny Logan joins Rugby Legends for a brilliant, honest conversation that moves far beyond career highlights. From Scotland’s current Six Nations challenge to the reality of life before professionalism, this episode gives young players and long-time rugby fans a rare look at how the game has changed through the eyes of someone who lived both eras.

Very early in the conversation, Kenny gives a sharp view on where Scottish rugby sits now, why Ireland has become the biggest problem, and what modern Scotland still needs if they want to take the next step. From there, the story moves right back to the beginning — leaving school at 16, life on the farm, struggling with severe dyslexia, and finding sport as the one place where confidence made sense.

What makes this episode especially strong is how practical Kenny becomes when speaking directly to young players. He explains why pace still matters, why concentration on the wing can decide whether you stay in a team, how to read the spin of a high ball, and why understanding the people around you matters just as much as your own role.

There is also real honesty here about hardship: being called thick at school, hiding dyslexia for years, missing parts of the amateur era, facing Jonah Lomu, and the one regret that still stays with him despite a huge international career. It becomes a conversation about rugby, but also about resilience, identity, and what lasts after the game finishes.

Subscribe for more conversations with the players and coaches who shaped rugby across generations.

1 Arthur: Hi everyone, I'm Arthur Dickins and this is my Rugby

Legends podcast.

In each episode, I interview an amazing rugby player or coach to

get their insight and advice for young rugby players just like me

who are keen to learn and get better.

In this episode, I'm speaking with Kenny Logan, ex Wasps and

Scotland winger.

Kenny is a legend of the Scottish game, a pacey winger

with 70 Scotland caps to his name, over an 11 year

international career.

At domestic level he made over a hundred appearances for WASPs

between 1997 and 2003.

Winning the Premiership twice as well, as the Heineken Cup.

I hope you find Kenny's knowledge and wisdom as helpful

as I did.

Enjoy.

Great stuff.

Leave you to it.

Firstly, Kenny, I just want to say thanks so much for taking

the time to be on my podcast.

I really appreciate it.

Kenny: Nice to meet you Arthur.

Arthur: Nice to meet you as well.

So firstly, Kenny, what did you make of Scotland's Six Nations

campaign?

Did

Kenny: It didn't start very well, but I think in the end it

was probably a good Six Nations.

we obviously need to try and beat Ireland, that's the problem

we've got at the moment.

We used to have a problem with England, now that's an easy

problem, we tend to beat them quite a lot.

but Ireland's a real problem now, so that's the next big fix.

But yeah, it was a good tournament.

I think the whole tournament was amazing, in fact for all teams,

probably apart from England.

Arthur: you go to watch any games?

Kenny: I went to watch the England Scotland France game,

and then I went to watch the Wales game, so all Scotland

wins, actually.

Arthur: That's

Kenny: the right ones.

Arthur: Going back in time, you left school at 16 years old and

then rugby went professional when you were 24.

Can you tell us about your rugby journey during those years?

Kenny: Yeah, so I was just, I struggled at school, I was

severely dyslexic, so I really struggled, school was hard for

me, and my outlet was playing sport, never mind rugby, just

any sort of sport, anything to get out and show that I was good

at something.

And because I was reasonably quick, I was always good at

football, good at rugby, good at athletics.

as I say, my school life wasn't great, but as I got older, I

realised that rugby was the sort of sport that I was going to

excel in.

But I was obviously an amateur, so we didn't, we didn't look at

it as a job, it was more of a, I left school, I was a farmer's

son, I went straight to run my dad's farm.

And at 16, 17 years old, my cousin died, she was a big

influence in my life.

And then, my dad died two years later, so within that sort of

four year period, I'd got myself into the Scotland national team,

so I played under 18s, under 19s, and then my under 19

trials, I was then picked for Scotland's first team, which is

the national team, to go to Australia when I was only 19.

And I got my cap when I was 20, so I was having to learn really

quickly and obviously losing my dad and had a lot of things

going on in my head but running my dad's farm and being amateur

and training alongside that trying to be as professional as

I could was hard work, especially with the knowledge of

struggling at school but I found the next part of my life

probably a lot easier than I did at school and then Obviously

rugby went professional.

I got my first cap, should I say, in Australia in 1992.

Gregor Townsend and I went on a tour to Australia with the

national team.

Which we were just going there as, young kids to get

experience.

But in my own head I was going, how do I get in the team?

I was desperate to get in the team.

And I ended up playing seven games out of the eight games on

the tour.

So I got myself in that team, and then I got myself

established.

Ish, wouldn't say established, I got in the following year, I was

in the team, then from 93 onwards I was pretty much, in

most years, without injury or maybe a lack of form, but in

general I was in the team for the next 10, 11 years, it was a

really good period of coming across from amateur say, to

professional.

Arthur: When you were younger, did you always play winger?

Kenny: no, I played hooker.

I played back row.

I actually played what, I played every position on the park in a

rugby match.

I hadn't played second row once and I played second row and a

bounce match just so I could play it because I had never

played it.

I played prop for a while when I was 16 was probably, I played

back row most of the time as a young kid.

I was a bit annoying, so I was quite good at back row and then

I was put on the wing or fullback.

which, I didn't really enjoy it as much as I did the back row,

and then I realised that I was quicker than everybody else, so

I did start to enjoy that, but then when I was 16, I was

picked, I was in the under 18s, my local club was still in

county, and they didn't have a hooker, but they had plenty of

wingers, so I said I'll play hooker.

So I had a whole season playing hooker for the under 18s and

playing wing fullback for the under 16s.

Arthur: Which was your favourite position out of all of those?

Kenny: I hated the hooker.

Oh my God.

I hated it.

but I just wanted to play and I wanted to be in the team.

but definitely fullback was my favorite position.

Arthur: What did you like about fullback?

Kenny: I, suppose nowadays the way the wingers are now,

everybody, the back three is the sort of back three.

It used to be you were on the wing and that was your role.

I think the great thing about Fullback is you see the game,

you're in the middle of the pitch, you can move, you can go

wherever you want, and that's the bit I really enjoyed, I like

the fact that there's no position, you can go in at 10,

you can go in at outside centre, you can just find yourself any

holes, you can pick any sort of, run off anybody, and then as

long as you've got back to position, or back to the back

three, you're in good shape, so I enjoyed that, sort of freedom.

Arthur: Yeah, I actually had a game at fullback on Sunday, it

was very fun.

Kenny: So what's your position?

Arthur: I played fly half usually, but fullback, cause our

other fullback, yeah, I like to think so.

Kenny: Good.

Arthur: But no, it was really fun, you just like to watch the

game basically.

Kenny: a good position, it's a good position.

Arthur: How much did rugby change between the amateur and

professional era?

Kenny: it's changed a lot, I suppose for me, when you were,

when I was young, it was a dream to play for Scotland, or play at

the High, play for my local rugby club, which was in the

premiership, in Scotland, that was your dream.

to, do, A job that you love as a hobby, for it to go

professional, and then get paid to do something you absolutely

adore, was the most amazing period of time in 95, 96.

I loved the whole, my whole journey of being, the whole

excitement of the game going professional, and me moving to

London, being a farmer boy, and moving to Wasps, and having the

success we had.

But.

The change was a sort of slow change, it did that, and then it

went really professional.

So within, I would say, 2001, it was starting to be really,

professional.

And everything we did, and when you look at it now, the, my

son's a professional rugby player and they've got cameras

on them all the time, they've got GPS the time, they're

tracked like a dog, with a tracker on.

So it's a totally different, way it was when I played.

At the end, we were getting tracked a little bit, but we're

nowhere near the boys, the way they're getting tracked now.

But I think the way the game has moved forward, you're seeing

these elite athletes playing sport, and all sports now, if

you look at any sport 10 years ago, we feel that it was, it's a

different sport than it is now.

So I think the way the game's gone is incredible.

I think that it's a different pressure for younger players

now, and older players.

because it's, a real job then.

A lot of these players now left school and went into, it's their

job where we went into it as a hobby and it became our job.

Arthur: Reflecting back, road player which era did you enjoy

the most?

Kenny: I enjoyed the transition, going professional, amateur to

professional.

It was a great, I, loved amateur, but I, love that.

I love, in fact, I wouldn't change what I've got now for

what I've had as an amateur then, so I had maybe three years

of amateur then interprofessional.

But I definitely enjoyed that amateur to professional switch.

It was really exciting times.

Everything off the field was exciting.

On the field, crowds turning up, getting more coverage.

It was incredible.

I loved that period.

Arthur: Yeah, no, I would love it as well, it seems really fun.

Kenny: Yeah, it was good fun.

Bit relaxed, but good

Arthur: What's the hardest part about playing on the wing?

Kenny: when I first started playing, you used to chase a lot

of kicks, and you used to, you didn't get much ball, and

certainly international level, and now that, the way the game

is now, when I'd finished playing rugby, it was totally

different.

You were getting the ball a lot, you were, you were under more

pressure settling defence, because, The way we started

doing these rush defences put the winger under a lot of

pressure cause he was on his own.

In the sense that you, when you've got people inside you or

outside you, there's, their weight, they can move and you

can use everybody around you for your, advantage.

But when you're defending the wing, you've really got to hit

the man with the ball and if you don't, suddenly you're in

trouble.

And then, if they've got, the wheels have got a bit more gas

than you've got or they hit a good line, you're beaten.

And then suddenly.

You might not touch the ball for a wee while and you're mentally

going, where am I?

I've missed that.

I think from a point of view of, my thing was having to stay

switched on.

You had to be switched on all the time and it was quite

tiring.

because I found maybe concentrating hard being

dyslexic and slightly ADHD.

I found it really hard.

I used to have periods in the game where I was really focused.

I used Think about being focused, and then when the

whistle went, I used to just go like that, forget about rugby,

just give yourself a rest and go again.

So I had methods, but I certainly, I think what was hard

was just, you can be outpaced really quickly on the wing.

You've got to keep your, you've got to be on, even if you're

quick, you've got to be on the ball.

Arthur: Exactly that.

Which was the best team you played in, and what made them so

good?

Kenny: Do you know what, I was, I think, Winning tournaments

with teams is quite hard.

I know a lot of players that might have won something in

England, or maybe not won anything with their country,

should I say, and won with their clubs, but not loads.

I was very lucky at Stirling County when I, my first club, we

won the Scottish Championship, which, I grew up with a lot of

these players, and, from a young age.

So 10 year old.

Still playing in that team 15 years later with four or five of

the guys that you grew up with was really special.

and I'll never forget the days of, the players that I had the

likes of Ian Jardine, played for Scotland, Kevin McKenzie, Mark

McKenzie, Brian Robertson, George Graham, all these players

that you wouldn't know, but people that knew my career would

know them really well.

And, I got to play with my cousins in that team, so I was

really lucky that it was a real local club that did well.

But when it went professional, to play for WASPs was the best

experience I've ever had, to be with some of the best players in

the world.

And winning tournaments, winning Heineken Cups, winning leagues,

we would win most seasons a trophy.

So I was very lucky to, have that success continuing on my

rugby career, and, because, it's great to win, and win, win games

and get yourself up the league, but when you win a league, or

you win a tournament, the camaraderie's phenomenal, and

you've still got it now, even when you're retired, you still

see them and know that they were part of that team that you were

played in.

Arthur: it's so cool winning a competition with your cousins.

Kenny: We only played one game though.

It was quite amazing to be in the squad with him.

Ali Logan his name was.

Arthur: What's one piece of advice you'd give to someone

like me if they wanted to play wing?

Kenny: Oh God.

if you're a young player, work on your pace.

Really work on your pace.

work on energy, you need a lot of energy in the wing.

And also, When you're not on the ball is the most important thing

for a winger, is making sure that you're watching the game

and actually how you get yourself in a position where if

they kick the ball or somebody makes a break, you're there.

So really work hard off the ball, I think that's the tip I

would give most players that are, never mind if you're a

winger, is working hard off the ball.

Get yourself into good positions, working to see where

the game is going to happen next, can you be involved in it,

can you make an impact in that moment.

Arthur: What other position on the rugby pitch did you rely on

the most?

Kenny: I would probably say on the wing you're definitely

relying on your 13 outside centre from a defensive point of

view.

and also then you're working really well with the back three,

the full back.

So the two key people I'd be thinking about when I'm

defending would be the 13 and the fullback.

Where is he?

How is he helping me?

How am I helping him?

so that, that's a key position from a back, back three point of

view.

But also understand what the 10's thinking.

and also, from a winger point of view, really understanding some

of the back row forwards, especially nowadays when they're

coming a bit wider, and how you can play off them, cause they

make good dents.

reading a player, expecting the ball from anywhere.

If you think about Finn Russell, if you played with someone like

Finn and I played with Gregor Townsend, it was similar to Finn

but not as good.

Finn would be, or Gregor, the ball could come here, under your

legs, whatever.

So always expect the ball, so it never should be a shock.

That's one thing I'd say to a young player.

expect the ball from anywhere, so when you're running into an

area when the ball can come into it.

Always expect it's going to come, even though you think it's

coming to the deck, just expect the ball, be ready for it.

Arthur: speaking of expecting the ball, let's say, do you

practice and train, if, er, the fly half would kick the ball

over and the winger would chase it, like a cross field kick?

Kenny: Yeah, definitely, you've got to practice, and even

looking at the ball, how it's spinning, will it spin, if it's

spinning the other way, you know it's going to come back.

So almost, you see some players that, they're running up and

suddenly they change direction, the ball goes over the guy's

head and he catches it.

It's because he's reading the ball, and I know this sounds

silly but just, Watching how the ball is swivelling, how he kicks

it.

Some tens kick it and the ball always runs.

Some tens kick it and they can stop it and pull it back.

So you've just got to, it's really important to understand

the kickers of the ball, more so now than ever.

Because the way the game is now, there's a lot of kick, a lot of

kicking.

And the more you can understand that, The high ball, how you're

jumping.

You see now a lot of wingers and back three players are

constantly practicing getting the ball back.

So under, they call it the crumbs.

So when the ball's getting tapped back, how it's gonna come

back to you?

How's it going?

Can you catch it on the tap back?

Or have you got a ticket on the bounce congested areas?

So it's, there's a lot of, you've just got to get there and

just hold off and watch and look at the ball, really focus on the

ball.

Arthur: speaking of, the kicking era, would you much prefer, now

when they kick it a lot, or back then when they didn't kick it

much?

Kenny: back in the day, when they did put a ball up, and you

caught it, they could take your legs away, in the air, so you

could land on your head, and the referee would go knock on.

No penalties, no yellow cards, so I'd rather be playing now,

because I think the game's a lot safer now than it's ever been.

From head knocks, to protecting the player, when I played you

could rock people, You could stand in their, any part of

their body apart from their head, but any, apart from their,

everything from their head down was fair game.

it was, quite brutal for, if you were caught in a ruck, you knew

about it.

Arthur: That must have been brutal.

Kenny: Yeah, I'm a put against France once, and my back was

absolutely shredded, scars all over it, just kicked the living

daylights out of me.

But, that was allowed, that was, the argument in those days was

If that was the case, you're on the wrong side.

So if you're on the wrong side nowadays, it's a penalty of a

free kick or a penalty of a yellow card.

Where in those days, you could ruck the living daylights out of

them by using your feet, by kicking at them, not kicking,

but rucking in a backward motion.

You're allowed to do that, so you got out very quickly if you

can, but if you couldn't get out, and somebody would hold you

in, so you did get a bit of a kicking.

Arthur: Jeez.

How would you, recover from these, situations, recovery?

Kenny: ice.

don't do it again.

Learn from your mistakes.

yeah, you just had to ice it and, it was, I remember once it

was so bad I couldn't wear a jersey for about two or three

days.

It was just really sore on the head, but that was, part of the

game in those days.

You didn't moan about it, that was just, how you got scars and,

rucking and, it was a different part, different times, but the

game now is miles more, players respect that area, so they know

that if they're in the wrong place, they're gonna get a

penalty on a yellow card, so they get out as quick as they

can, or back in the day you could hang around a little bit

longer.

Arthur: Yeah, I know, cause I've seen Ben Young's, documentary

about, is rugby safe?

Kenny: Yeah, exactly.

Great documentary.

Arthur: Yeah, it is.

Who was the most influential teammate in your career, and

what did you learn from them?

Kenny: that's a good question.

I was, I think growing up, I listened to a lot of my, coaches

were really quite important, very important to me.

I suppose from a team mate point of view, for Scotland, Gavin

Hastings was very important to me cause I really loved him.

He was my hero, and then he got to play with them, which was

amazing for me as a young kid.

so I always respected what he said to me, and I suppose as I

got older and went to WASPs, I was very lucky at WASPs with the

players we had, with multiple lions and all blacks and stuff

like that.

Irish and Welsh, Lawrence Dallaglio was, a real character

to our team, and he was somebody that you would listen to, and

somebody that you would respect on the field because he would

always lead by example, and if he didn't, he would tell you he

did lead by example, even if he had a bad game, but he was a,

great leader of men, and I think it's a bit like if you go to

Leicester, they would talk about Martin Johnson.

you go to, Saracens, as we talked about, and Owen Farrell,

so I think every club has this one iconic leader, and I think

from a Stirling County point of view, was a guy called Stuart

Hamilton, who was the, captain, and the, leader of, the team,

and, the leaders of the teams tend to leave marks on your

careers.

Arthur: Who is the most difficult player you've had to

defend against?

Kenny: Jonah Lomu was quite hard.

I think he would be, everybody's one would be somebody that, was,

I never actually marked him directly, but I had to sometimes

try and tackle him, which was literally try.

I think once I was, I got both of his legs and he was still

hopping along the ground and I was 95kgs.

but I think from a point of view of a somebody, Chester Williams

is really hard to play against.

James Small, I think James Small was really hard because of his,

he was such an in your face player.

But I think in the modern era was Jason Robinson, was really

hard to defend.

And the only reason we got good at defending him was probably

Sean Edwards telling us how to defend against him.

But it was very hard when, The coach says, when he comes at you

and he stutters with his feet, just keep going at him, just

ignore it, but you couldn't ignore it because he was so

good, so you would then be always caught flat footed.

I always found him really hard to play against, but, and he was

a wonderful rugby player.

Arthur: What Leon Lloyd said about Jonah Lomu, like dive at

his legs and try to dive at his legs, doesn't matter where your

head is.

Kenny: try, it was almost like you tried to trip him up.

Cause if he went high, he brushed you off.

If he went in the middle, he could still drag you along.

So you need to try and stop him from, or try and make him

stumble so somebody could then get on top of him.

he was a freak of nature.

The guy was just miles in front of everybody else.

It was incredible to, I actually played with him for the

Barbarians, which was a great experience to play alongside

him.

Arthur: Was he like a nice guy to talk to?

Kenny: A great guy.

He actually carried my wife home, Gabby, one night, cause

she was a bit drunk.

So she, he put her over her shoulders and carried her home

for me.

Not that she's heavy but, he, offered so I thought he might as

well take her.

Arthur: If you had your career again and you could choose to

play any position on the pitch, which position would you choose?

Kenny: maybe 13?

Arthur: Why 13?

Kenny: just, I think it's a great position.

I think 10's a great position.

but, 13 or number 8?

Arthur: Yeah, that's a good choice.

if I could choose, if I'd like to play number 8 if I grew a

Kenny: Would you?

Why?

Arthur: such a cool position.

Kenny: Yeah, you get a bit of physicality,

Arthur: Yeah.

Kenny: also get a little, you can be, in the backs a little

bit and you can do a bit of running.

Yeah, my son's a number eight, he likes number eight and he

used to be a winger so he's gone from wing to number eight.

Arthur: What was the biggest challenge you've faced as a

rugby player?

Kenny: I think my biggest challenge was my school life of

being dyslexic and being ashamed of it and not telling people

that I was struggling to read and write and I struggled with

the moves.

I really struggled with reading information, but the players

gave us, gave me, and it wasn't until I was about 28, 29, I told

people I struggled at school and I couldn't read and write.

And I wish I had been braver and told my teammates earlier so

they could understand me.

Arthur: Yeah, a lot of people now, like famous people have had

dyslexia, like Tom Holland, he has dyslexia.

Kenny: Yeah, I know, exactly.

And I think it's something I wish I'd spoken about.

I think when I was growing up you were told you were thick and

stupid.

if you were told that as a kid, you didn't really want to talk

about it.

It was more of a shame than, I think now, we're definitely a

lot more open, as a society anyway, but, there's a lot of

people speaking about dyslexic and issues, and I think it's

really important to talk about it.

Arthur: Yeah, cause, as well, if someone has ADHD, they can,

problem solving's a lot easier for them.

it's super strengths as well you get from it.

Kenny: Yeah, exactly.

And I know my super strengths from it, so that's good.

And I think the way the technology is now, it doesn't

affect me at all.

I'm not, if I had what I've got now, from a technology point of

view at school, I would have really enjoyed school.

I would have really embraced that, I found school really

hard, couldn't wait to get home to the farm, couldn't wait to

get away from it.

Arthur: What was your favourite moment of your career?

Kenny: I think you never get away from your first cap.

a moment of something that you've always, Thought about

what would it be like, and what would the feeling be, and then

once you get one cap you go, I'd like another one, and then I'd

like another one, then I want to get to 50, then I want to get to

700, or whatever it is, and once you get to 50 you relax a little

bit, cause you feel that you've, that you always want more, but

then you want to win trophies.

winning with Scotland was incredible, and winning all the

trophies with WASPS was incredible, but.

The best moment would be, oh I don't know, it's really hard,

but I think I'd go for your first cap, your first moment

when you get recognised and you understand what it's like to

play for your country.

Arthur: Would you rather a hundred caps or winning a World

Cup?

Kenny: World Cup.

Arthur: Why a World Cup?

Kenny: I think just winning the best tournament in the world

would be amazing.

I would definitely take ten caps and be in the World Cup final.

how much?

we won the five nations of Scotland, which was great to win

some of your country, and if you think about Scotland now, I

would say Scotland's We've got one of the best teams we've ever

had, and we haven't won a major trophy, which is really, that

team deserves to win a trophy, and that team needs to win

something, and I'd love them to win a World Cup, obviously, but

I'd love them to win the Six Nations, or win the Triple

Crown, we haven't won that for a long time, it's a good bunch of

players, the time, it's not running out for them, but they

have got two or three years now they've got to try and really

push on from what happened this year.

But yeah, World Cup.

You think of how hard it is to win a World Cup, everybody

thought England would win the next World Cup after they won

the one in 2003, and you're now 20 odd years on and still

haven't won another one, so it's, and New Zealand haven't

won it for two World Cups, South Africa have been very dominant,

but yeah, winning the World Cup would be pretty phenomenal.

Arthur: Yeah, I thought England were gonna win a World Cup this

year, or the Six Nations, but, yeah, that hasn't happened.

Kenny: it wasn't a good tournament for England, I think,

Wales ended up coming out of it really well.

You could see an improvement.

Italy really improved.

Scotland had a good Six Nations.

France would be happy.

Ireland at the start, everybody thought they were going to be

struggling.

Get a new coach and all that sort of stuff.

nobody was talking about, England failing, which they

have.

it's one of the worst Six Nations I've had.

I didn't see it coming.

But, it's hard to win these tournaments, it's hard to test

match rugby, it's really hard.

Arthur: Yeah, definitely, England could beat Italy, but

then, then Italy could be, France, who we lost the six

nations.

Kenny: It's been the best Six Nations we've had for a long

time.

Not for England, but as a, not for English fans, but for a

rugby fan who's just watching, who wants to enjoy the Six

Nations.

I suppose all the other nations would have really enjoyed the

Six Nations, but England wouldn't have enjoyed it.

But.

It is what it is, right?

That's what happens when you get to, your first game in the Six

Nations is really important, which was, obviously Scotland

lost that, Wales lost to England, England were very

confident, and then they lost the next one against Scotland,

and then suddenly there's a snowball effect.

So it's hard, it's a hard tournament.

Arthur: Yeah, 100%.

If there was one thing you could change about your career, what

would it be?

Kenny: probably like to be the British Lion, would be my only

thing, but in general, but.

I wasn't good enough, or I wasn't good enough at the time.

And you've got to time your run for these Lions tours.

but that would be my sort of only regret,

Arthur: What's the biggest life lesson rugby has taught you,

that you still use today?

Kenny: I think rugby's really good to build a good character.

I think, The rugby fans and the rugby players are very good.

If you step out of line, they're very, really good to let you

know that's not good enough.

That's not how we behave.

So I think that's really important.

The camaraderie is amazing.

And the life lessons of being a good individual or respecting

other people is really important.

And that all comes down to respecting the referee,

respecting the game and the laws and also what happens off the

field with fans.

And other players.

Arthur: Yeah, that's what all my rugby coaches say at school.

Like, when I was younger, you had this wristband if you got,

play of the session, and it was like, it said, it was like

treads, it was like, teamwork, respect, encouragement, and I

forgot what D was, but, no, it was like, yeah.

Pardon?

But yeah, no, they, my rugby coaches always tell us about

that.

Kenny: Yeah.

What would the D be?

Determination?

Desire.

Determination.

Arthur: that's it.

Kenny: Yeah, it gives you good values.

I think rugby is great for that.

And that's one thing I would say.

It gives you a really good core as an individual.

grown up, and if, you step out of line, there's plenty of

people to tell you.

That's not the way we act.

Arthur: What wisdom do you have now that you wish you had when

you started out in the game?

Kenny: Oh god, that's a good point.

I think for a, as you get older you get to know the game better.

I wish I'd got the game quicker in my head.

I was a younger kid, so I, I sometimes felt, sometimes look

back and it goes, I wish I'd known that then.

I know now.

and I think the, for me it's things like, working off the

ball.

I didn't do enough of that when I was a little bit younger.

could I had been a bit more, I think sometimes we're a bit

structured.

Could I been a bit more loose and being a bit determinated to

do different things.

should I had done more, yoga, exercise, about the body.

We did it at the end, but at the start we were amateur.

I was a farmer, so I wasn't doing yoga or Pilates, but I'd

definitely be doing that now.

I'd be looking at every edge.

If I was professional now, I'd be looking at every edge how to

get that 1%, 2%, 3%, 4% gain and look at a, proper plan.

Because they said, I think the hard thing for me now.

Looking back, I was a farmer, it was amateur, then it went

professional.

Where, if I look at my son, if I could give him the knowledge

I've got, put in a 20 year old body, and would he do it?

I don't know, but I noticed it, and he is doing the yoga, he is

doing referees courses, coaching courses to understand as much as

he can about the game, and that's one thing I'd I wish I

had, done that.

I've, that's the only thing I'd change, is be a bit more

professional at the time, because we weren't really, we

didn't understand it with professionalism, and a lot of

the coaches didn't understand either, because nobody had been

professional before.

Where now, everybody's professional, the players are so

different, tuned, athletes now, where before we were trying to

be an athlete, I think.

Arthur: Yeah, as you said earlier in the interview,

players always being monitored now, so if the instructor or

someone says you need to do more yoga for for something in their

body, they'll know straight away.

Kenny: Yeah, and they'll have to do it, I think, we didn't, I

suppose near the end of our careers.

We were all doing yoga, Pilates, and things like that, and

stretching, and like wrestling, and all these different, core

skills.

for a young player now, there's no excuses really, cause they've

got so much.

The opportunity to do all these things are there for them, and

the coaches are looking at, say, these little edges constantly,

to make them better and better

Arthur: Exactly that.

Final question, Kenny.

What's the thing you miss about playing rugby?

Kenny: You miss the camaraderie, you miss the dressing room, the

adrenaline of playing is incredible.

I don't miss the hits, I don't miss the aching body, but I do

miss that whole togetherness.

And also, you're a professional sportsman, you don't think of

anything else apart from your sport and what you're doing.

This is very simple, but even like a diary, you knew that, if

you played on a Saturday, you had the Sunday off, and the

Monday was that day, and the Tuesday was that, and the

Wednesday was off, so you knew your week, you knew your year,

when the games were.

But nowadays, cause you haven't got, you've got a job, you've

got diary stuff, you've got all these things in your head, so

back in the day you were just thinking about one thing.

but yeah, I miss the lads, I miss the camaraderie, and the

adrenaline from playing rugby is incredible.

Arthur: Yeah, 100% I totally agree with you.

After a game, cause I played for a rugby club as well, in the

changing room after a win, it's amazing.

Kenny: And you know what's great is, you don't have to be a

professional sportsman to get that adrenaline and get that

feeling.

That's the great thing about the sport we play in.

In a lot of sports, especially team sports, you get that great

camaraderie and great feeling, and in ten years time, you'll

know that you were part of that team that won that league or won

that game, and that's what's great about the sport.

Arthur: Yeah, that's why everybody loves it.

Kenny: Exactly.

Arthur: First, I just want to say thanks so much for being on

our podcast, Kenny.

I really appreciate you taking the time.

Thank you so much.

Kenny: I've loved being in your podcast, and good luck, you're a

great presenter.

Arthur: Thank you so much.

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