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Charlie Bracken: Saracens, England and Carving Your Own Path

In this episode of Rugby Legends, Arthur Dickins sits down with Saracens scrum-half Charlie Bracken, son of England World Cup winner Kyran Bracken, to talk about carving out his own identity in the game, the demands of playing at the top level, and the mindset that's fueling his rise through the Gallagher Premiership.

Charlie shares his journey from crying on the pitch at his first ever training session, to falling in love with rugby at Barnet Elizabethans, joining the Saracens academy at 14, and balancing university at Loughborough with his professional career. He opens up honestly about being told at 17 that he probably wouldn't get a contract, and how removing the pressure of an expected outcome actually freed him up to play his best rugby.

The conversation also digs into the technical and mental side of playing scrum-half: the skillset, decision-making, and fitness needed to compete with senior internationals, why hard work has always had to make up for a lack of early physical talent, and the value of working on his weaker side. Charlie also talks about growing up under the shadow and inspiration of a World Cup-winning dad, the Saracens culture that keeps producing top talent, and the advice he'd give to any young grassroots player dreaming of making it.

Whether you're a scrum-half working on your box kick, a young player wondering if the academy system is the be-all and end-all, or simply a rugby fan curious about life as a second-generation professional, this episode is full of honest, practical insight.


In this episode:

  • Growing up as a World Cup winner's son — inspiration or pressure?
  • Why hard work beats talent every time
  • The realities of the Saracens academy pathway
  • Dealing with being told "you're probably not good enough yet"
  • Balancing university at Loughborough with pro rugby
  • The hardest part of competing for a 9 shirt against experienced internationals
  • The three (or four) most important skills for a scrum-half
  • Working on your weaker foot and becoming ambidextrous
  • What makes the Saracens culture so successful
  • Chasing that first England senior cap



[00:00:02] Arthur: Hi everyone. I'm Arthur Dickins and this is my Rugby Legends podcast. 
[00:00:07] In this episode, I'm speaking with Saracens Charlie Bracken, the exciting young Scrum half who had his breakthrough season this year in the Gallagher Prem. Today's guest is 22 years old and rugby is already in his DNA. His father Kyran Bracken, a World Cup winner with England and spent a decade at Saracens.
[00:00:27] Charlie is a player on the rise with a brilliant story about legacy, identity, and carving your own path. I hope you find Charlie's knowledge and wisdom as helpful as I did. Enjoy!
[00:00:38] 
[00:00:40] Arthur: First of Charlie. I just wanna say thank you so much for taking the time. I really appreciate it. 
[00:00:46] Charlie Bracken: No worries. It's a, it's a pleasure to be on. You've had some great guests on, so, um, I'm sure I won't be the, the best name for you, but yeah, I hope to give you a few insights.
[00:00:54] But yeah, it's great to meet you. And are you on, are you on your summer holidays now? 
[00:00:58] Arthur: Uh, yes. I finished three weeks [00:01:00] ago, so our school's like one of the longest, um, holidays, so 
[00:01:04] Charlie Bracken: Oh, ideal, ideal. That sounds great. We we have just come back from our off season, so I've just finished my holiday time, but I wish it was holidays again.
[00:01:12] 'cause it starts up, starts up again now and we don't have holiday for a while, but yeah.
[00:01:17] Arthur: Aren't you doing the Bronco test at Saracens? I saw it on TikTok. 
[00:01:21] Charlie Bracken: Yeah, we did that the other day. So we had our first weekend, we started last Wednesday and our first weekend was just the testing week. So we didn't actually touch any rugby balls.
[00:01:30] I mean, we had one session to test our skills, but that was it. And then on Friday we did a, we did a Bronco test, which was very tough. Um, and after we did the Bronco test, we went straight into something called the fight test, which is kind of like a bleep test. If you've seen that before where there's bleeps, uh, every like 10, 15 seconds, you have to make it back to the bleep.
[00:01:51] So we had to do that. And then once we like didn't make the bleep anymore, the coaches would make us still keep running until we couldn't run [00:02:00] anymore. So it was a very tough day. But I'm glad that's over and done with now 'cause it's just into the rugby now, so no more fitness testing, which I'm very glad about.
[00:02:08] Arthur: Oh, that's good. I hate when I rock up the training I you running going on because I, 
[00:02:14] Charlie Bracken: it's the, it's the worst thing, isn't it? We're rugby players rather than runners. 
[00:02:19] Yeah. So, 
[00:02:19] yeah. But at least it's done. 
[00:02:22] Arthur: Exactly. Growing up as Kyran Bracken's son, was rugby always the plan or did you have to find your own way to loving the game?
[00:02:32] Charlie Bracken: I think, yeah, I definitely, I've always loved the game. I started play rugby when I was about five or six, but originally my dad actually took me down to Saracens Amateurs and he took me there and apparently when I just got on the pitch, I just started crying. I just didn't wanna be there. So I think he thought my rugby days were probably, were probably over then.
[00:02:51] But then, uh, a year or so later I went down to Barnet Elizabethans where more of my friends were, um, and started playing [00:03:00] there. So there, there's where my love truly began for rugby. And I've always loved rugby growing up, like playing it, playing at school, playing it for club. Like I've, I've always had a love for the game and I guess that was partly because my dad obviously played and I was inspired by him growing up because obviously I'd go to watch him play at Sarries go and go and watch him play for England.
[00:03:19] And, and so that was, you know, something that I wanted to do naturally is, you know, you wanna, you wanna follow in your parents' footsteps. So it's always been something I wanted to do, but I didn't always think that I was definitely gonna be a rugby player like I always wanted to be, but I wasn't sure if I was good enough or if I had enough talent to, to, to be a rugby player.
[00:03:39] But luckily I was, I was good enough to, to play professionally and now I'm loving calling it a job. It's, it is the best job in the world to be honest. When you love the game, it's, you know, it's, it's great to be able to do something that, that I love for work and I'm very grateful for that.
[00:03:53] But yeah, I didn't always think that I was gonna become a professional rugby player, but it was always a dream. 
[00:03:59] Arthur: Did [00:04:00] you, when you were younger, did, was scrum half your position or did you play any others? 
[00:04:04] Charlie Bracken: Yeah, so my dad did teach us all how to play scrum half naturally 'cause he, he was one, so me and my brothers, I got two brothers, Jack and Lachlan and Jack's, he's two years below me, so he's 20 and Lockie's five years below me.
[00:04:18] Um, so he's in the academy still. But, um, we all grew up playing Scrum half because my dad, you know, we used to go down to the rugby fields and just chuck a ball about do scrum half practising . And, uh, we've actually got some videos from back in the day of us all passing the ball. We were ter we looked terrible when we were younger, to But, um, yeah, it started off from a really early age, all of us just training as a scrum half together. And then I think we all grew, but my youngest, my younger brothers, they grew a bit more than me, so they had to stop being a scrum half and change different positions. So Jack's now a fullback and Lockie's a fly half.
[00:04:51] So I'm the only one that stayed true to Scrum half. But yeah, that's been, it's been, I I've definitely enjoyed Scrum half. It's definitely my favourite [00:05:00] position. I tried a bit at 10, to be fair when I was, when I was playing at school, but I played one game for school at 10 and I threw two intercepts, and so I was like, right, I'm not playing 10 again.
[00:05:11] I'm, I'm going back to 9. So yeah. 
[00:05:14] Arthur: At least you're probably the dad's favourite 'cause you'll scrum half. 
[00:05:19] Charlie Bracken: Exactly. Exactly. I I, I hope I'm the favourite. 'cause he, well, he can, the thing is he can actually teach me still, whereas he can't teach the others anything. Like he knows a lot about Scrum half, but he doesn't know what to do with fullback and fly half.
[00:05:30] So he gives me the most feedback. I will, I will say that. 
[00:05:34] Arthur: Do you wish you could only play any of those positions? 
[00:05:38] Charlie Bracken: Do you know what, when, so when I first joined Sarries, obviously there's loads of players and you don't always get to play in your desired position. Like I, I was ended up playing on the wing a bit, playing a bit of fullback, just in training.
[00:05:51] And I actually really did enjoy it. I think it's quite tricky going, playing a different position from scrum half to say winger or centre. Just because it's [00:06:00] very different. Whereas say you were a centre, it might be a bit easier to play on the wing or say you're a 10, it might be a bit easier to play centre.
[00:06:05] But from scrum half to winger or fullback, it's quite, quite the change. But I actually did, I really enjoyed fullback and winger because I think especially fullback you still kind of use a bit of that kicking game and you also have a lot of space to run, which I quite enjoy. But if you, if you chuck me in a game now, I wouldn't, I wouldn't be able to do them very well, but I'd, I'd love doing it.
[00:06:25] So yeah, I'd, I do, I used to, to be fair, at school, I played, yeah, some, some 10, maybe a bit of fullback, but I'd always resort back to Scrum half. 
[00:06:33] Arthur: When we interviewed Freddie Steward, he said fullback. All you do is basically watch the game. To be honest, 
[00:06:39] Charlie Bracken: that sounds quite nice. Just like a little, just a little front row seats to the game.
[00:06:43] Then every now and then, catch a highball. To be fair though, to be fair to Freddy now, 'cause there's so much kicking in the game, he has to do a lot of work, a lot of highball catching, which I think for me, because I'm five 10, I think I'd lose every highball. Um, and I'm not even the smallest scrum half, but when you're [00:07:00] coming up against players, like Noah Caluori and, and that sort of bunch, you know, they can, they can jump over you.
[00:07:06] Um, so it's actually a very skilled position I will say. 
[00:07:09] Arthur: I was gonna say in training, if you played wing, it must be quite scary for facing Noah 
[00:07:14] Charlie Bracken: Uh, yet, to be fair, I haven't actually faced Noah on the Wing. I faced who have I faced in the past? I think it was when I was in my first year. So coming up against maybe Sean Maitland or, or Rotty.
[00:07:24] But they would, they'd run rings around me. I'd just have to hope I'd get a bit of space to be able to run into. And to be fair, the, the only similarity with the scrum half and, and winger at the minute for me is defensively because at Sarries, the, the scrum half defends, and in most clubs, the scrum half defends on the edge.
[00:07:42] So that means you kind of defend like a winger. So if you have to play on the wing, at least defensively, you'd, you'd sort of have an idea of what you're doing. Um, so it kind of transfers that sort of way. But what position do you play in? 
[00:07:55] Arthur: I play, I play fly half, 
[00:07:56] Charlie Bracken: oh, nice. I think, I think that's the one to go for.
[00:07:58] I think if I had my time [00:08:00] again, I think fly half would be good. If it seems like you get your hands on the ball the most, you know, you get all the glory. If you, if you slot the slot, the three points, like it's a good position to be for sure. 
[00:08:10] Arthur: Yeah, it's a good position, but loads of the forwards target you so it's not always the most. enjoyable in attack.
[00:08:15] Charlie Bracken: I can imagine. You get some late hits on you, don't you, you know, after you pass the ball, second or two later you get a forward just ramming into you. You see at scrum half you're protected from that a bit. You're behind the ruck, you know, no one's allowed to touch you. And if they do, I like the law at the minute where when the nine's at the base of the ruck, once he's got his hands on the ball, if you try and clear him out, then it's a penalty against, against the opposition.
[00:08:36] So it's quite nice. It's like loads of protection, which I like keep my body intact. 
[00:08:42] Arthur: Oh, that's always good. But, so I'll try getting back during the game. I'll try.
[00:08:45] Charlie Bracken: Yeah, I like that 
[00:08:46] Arthur: of the centre. 
[00:08:47] Charlie Bracken: I like, I like that you put you, you throw your weight around a bit as well. Put some late shots on them.
[00:08:52] I like that. I like that a lot. 
[00:08:56] Arthur: Has having a World Cup winner as your dad been more of an [00:09:00] inspiration or a pressure? And how have you managed that 
[00:09:03] Charlie Bracken: I think that's, I think that's a really great question. I think, I think it's been both to be fair. I think inspiration probably more than pressure, but in terms of the inspiration, like I think because I've seen him do what he's done and achieve what he's achieved, it's obviously given me something to go after and try and, follow in his footsteps.
[00:09:24] And because he's experienced everything that it's, he, he's experienced, it's been incredibly helpful for me. So, you know, the, the highs and lows of rugby, he's talked to me about the press pressured situations, you know, what it's like to be a manager of the game, to be a scrum half, obviously to play at Sarries as well.
[00:09:40] He's experienced all of that. So to have someone that's been through it all is quite, quite comforting. But at the same time, I think it does put a bit of expectation on you, a bit of pressure not necessarily in the first place, but especially when you're going through the academy stages and it's like, oh, I wanna get a contract to be a, to be a rugby [00:10:00] player.
[00:10:00] 'cause that's what, that's what my dad did. And then stepping up the levels, you know, oh, his dad was a good player, is he gonna be a good player? But I think I've, I think I've kind of got over that a bit in a sense because, you know, I'm trying to be my own player and he was a great player, but it was so long ago and the games changed so, so differently.
[00:10:18] You know, when he started out it was, it was amateur and then it only turned professional, you know, later on in his, his career. So it's completely different circumstances. But I kind of don't see it as, as pressure anymore. It's just nice to have someone that, that knows the game and can give me advice.
[00:10:32] Arthur: Yeah, a hundred percent. So would you say you had to work like harder or less harder having your dad as World Cup winner? 
[00:10:38] Charlie Bracken: A lot of people would say, oh, you know, he's your dad, he's got you into places. Bit of nepotism, bit of, you know, oh, your dad's this, he'll get you in here.
[00:10:45] But no, I think definitely growing up I wasn't, I wasn't that physically talented as a player. You know, like you'd look at someone like Noah and he would be you know, at school he was running rings around people. Same, same with my brother Jack, [00:11:00] actually. Like, he was quite an early developer, so he would just like rip up the pitch and everyone would be like, oh my God, who's this guy?
[00:11:06] That was never me. I always was a good player and, you know, I was, I was fit and I was quite quick, but nothing ridiculous, but my skills were good 'cause I, I worked hard on them and I was just very hardworking and, and very dedicated. And, you know, I think the, the skillset that I worked on when I was younger, you probably don't notice in your, in your school games, you just think, oh, they can, they can pass and kick.
[00:11:30] But I think when you step up the levels then it makes a bit of a difference. So I think, yeah, I was never, I was never really talented when I was younger, but it made me, made me have to work hard because I was, I was small and, you know, the only thing that I could do was be good at my passing, be good at my kicking, and have a bit of, have a bit of fight about me.
[00:11:47] Uh, which I find definitely happens if you're, if you're a smaller player on the pitch you can't control, you know, your weight, your power, but what you can control is how hard you work and, and your fight. So that's always been something that's taken me through. But I don't think, you know, my [00:12:00] dad, you, you get it every now and then where it's like like your dad got you into Sarries, this, that, and the other, but that only gets you so far.
[00:12:06] And then you have to, you know, prove it. Prove it yourself. 
[00:12:10] Arthur: A hundred percent. I'm the smaller player on the pitch as well, so yeah. It's harder. 
[00:12:14] Charlie Bracken: Yeah. But that, that's, I think that's per, I think that's definitely better for your development as well. Like, I think a lot of the time what you see is boys in, in your age group.
[00:12:22] What age are you now? How old are you? 
[00:12:23] Arthur: I'm going into under 14. So at the moment I'm under 13. I'm going into under 14 this coming rugby season 
[00:12:30] Charlie Bracken: Wow. Well, you speak very well. You seem very mature for your age, but a lot of players that uh, say your age, who are a lot bigger and a lot stronger than you, they'll think that they've cracked it, you know, and they don't have to work that hard 'cause they dominate already and they think that the path is gonna be easy.
[00:12:44] So I think for someone like you it's great. It's like you'll get there in the end physically because, you know, everyone grows at different rates and whatever. But for you to be able to play at that level now when you're not the size of everyone else is just, it is a, it's a testament to how hard you [00:13:00] work and, and your bravery really.
[00:13:01] So no, it'll, it'll put you in good stead for the future. For sure. 
[00:13:05] Arthur: Yeah. I brought my, I was talking to my dad about this, like the bigger players as well, they don't often pass. So if anything handling, so, 
[00:13:12] Charlie Bracken: Exactly, exactly. I can imagine your handling is miles better than all the bigger boys. So Yeah, and especially for a 10, that's great as well.
[00:13:19] To be able to like really work on your passing and your kicking, you know, it's just so, so, so invaluable for the rest of, you know, your whatever level you get to play in rugby. 
[00:13:29] Arthur: Yeah. And it's very satisfying, especially in the scrum half when you fizz ball out.. 
[00:13:34] Charlie Bracken: Yeah, I, I, yeah, it is very satisfying.
[00:13:36] I'd say scrum half fly half very satisfying positions. Like, I love going and doing a kick in session or a passing session. Like it's a bit of a nice way to clear your head, a nice way to, you know, have some fun with your mates. But yeah, yeah it's, I really do, yeah, it's a bit of therapy for me.
[00:13:51] It's a bit like golf. I've started getting into my golf as well, um, and it's like hitting like a nice clean shot. It's like, you know, it feels good. The only thing is with golf, I, I'm [00:14:00] not very good at golf. I'm a lot better at rugby, so, yeah, it's a lot more satisfying to, to throw some nice passes on nice kicks than duff my golf shots.
[00:14:08] Arthur: You joined Saracens at 14, what was that transition like as a young kid going into a serious professional environment? 
[00:14:17] Charlie Bracken: Yeah, it was, it was great. I think it's quite overwhelming at first. Obviously there's quite a few different stages. You know, you have your area and your county. It was a bit different back then, but you have all these different stages and you go into different levels and it feels like, you know, you're progressing slowly and then suddenly, suddenly you get into the academy.
[00:14:35] And when I was at Sarries, it was, it was pretty brutal with the academy system. One week you'd be in the academy system, the next week a bunch of boys would get kicked off a group chat and it gets smaller and smaller. So being in that sort of environment was great. You know, it makes you work so hard and it's a nice thing to be a part of 'cause you feel like, you know, you're playing a good level of rugby with your mates.
[00:14:57] But at the same time it is quite overwhelming. You do feel [00:15:00] quite pressured. You're like, oh, I wanna stay in and, you know, I wanna, I wanna keep playing and all of that sort of thing. But in terms of environment at Sarries, like it really does get the best out of you. And I think the coaches there are, are, are unbelievable through all the levels.
[00:15:14] And I think what you see in the first team kind of trickles down all the way into the academy. So then making the, the steps up from, you know, say under fourteens to under fifteens to under sixteens, all the way up into the, into the first team that transition is, is a bit smoother because, you know, like, you feel like you've experienced it and you know the system and you know, the sort of coaching style.
[00:15:36] So yeah, it was, it was quite overwhelming initially. But then I think it's, it served me really well for later on in my career. 
[00:15:46] Arthur: So would you say like when you get up the level, 'cause you were like there for so long, would you say they'd bring players in or would like it would keep getting smaller, smaller and smaller? 
[00:15:55] Charlie Bracken: Yeah, so definitely they brought players in all the time. So obviously boys would get [00:16:00] released, but then some of the boys who got released would get back in. You'd get players coming from different schools. We, uh, we had one or two players who literally joined in the under 18 season. And then got signed after a few games.
[00:16:11] So what I'd say to to anyone, especially, young players like yourself it, you can't expect it to go smoothly. Like a lot of the time it'll be up and down and just because you don't get into, into under 14, under 15, whatever academy stage, it doesn't mean that you're not gonna make it and not gonna be able to get to a high level of, of rugby.
[00:16:32] Because even me, I, I remember at the end of my under 17 year, they were like you seem like a good player, but you're probably just, you know, you, you probably won't get a contract 'cause you're just not at that level yet. And I think that was something that probably motivated me a bit and had a good under 18 season.
[00:16:49] So I think things can like change in an instant and I know so many players that have got released in the academy, uh, academy level and then have got onto uni played well and then joined [00:17:00] after that. So I don't think it's the, the be all or end all in Academy and I think, I think it's a great thing to do.
[00:17:05] Same with, you know, your England under 18, England under 20, although it's a cool experience and you know, you really feel like you're part of something. It doesn't really mean anything. It's, it's, it's something that prepares you well, but it's not the be all and end all, you know? 
[00:17:20] Arthur: when you said that person said you wouldn't get a contract when you were 17 how did you like deal with like that self-doubt?
[00:17:26] Charlie Bracken: Yeah, definitely. I think that's something that I've, I've had to deal with, from a young age because like I said, like being small and you know, not being the most talented, you sometimes feel, oh, am I, am I ready for this? Like, am I, am I good enough?
[00:17:39] All of these thoughts definitely popped into my head. But I think just, you know, having that pressure taken off a bit, being like, well, you're probably not there yet. It meant I was just like, oh well. I'll just give it my all. It doesn't really matter the outcome, because I don't think that I'm gonna get one anyway.
[00:17:55] So let's just have fun this year, um, and see where it takes me. And I played the best rugby that I've [00:18:00] played when, you know, I was just playing for the enjoyment of the game and just to have fun and not thinking about making mistakes. I think that's something that, you know, a lot of players fall into the trap of is, oh, I'm just gonna play safe because if I don't make any mistakes I'll be all right.
[00:18:14] And, you know, I might sort of, I maybe get a contract. I might do okay, but I think that's the, the wrong mentality to have. I think, you know, you shouldn't really be thinking about those things. You should just be trying to enjoy your rugby as much as you can and playing what you see and, and, and playing naturally.
[00:18:30] And I think that's something that's, you know, I've developed over the years. I think it's really hard being, being a young person, playing sport, especially in an academy level. 'cause you're constantly having these thoughts of, oh, I don't wanna get released, all of this, all of that. But I think, you know, when you get older, you learn a bit more, you experience a bit more and you realise, you know, that that.
[00:18:49] Mentally it's, it, it, it is tough. But there's different ways to approach a game, which is why now, like I work a lot on my mindset and a lot of the ways I approach game is going in to enjoy [00:19:00] the game and, and have fun, rather than putting any pressures on myself. 
[00:19:04] Arthur: take risks in life 
[00:19:05] Charlie Bracken: Exactly.
[00:19:06] Exactly. Risk it for a biscuit, as I say. Um, so yeah, I think that's what I'd, I'd recommend to a lot of young players as well. Like, you know, don't worry about making mistakes just have fun and, and as you say just risk it. 
[00:19:18] Arthur: Yeah. A quote I really like that kind of matches with that is selections one person's decision.
[00:19:23] A hundred people could say, you get a contract but one person could say you can't. 
[00:19:28] Charlie Bracken: I absolutely love that. I love that. And I think it's not necessarily even just what one person says. Like you could have five, 10 people telling you that you're not gonna make it, and you go out there and you prove them wrong and, you know, that's it.
[00:19:40] I've, I've seen it at clubs happen as well, where even a whole club doesn't rate a person and then they go to another club and they become their standout player. It happens all the time. And I think that's the beauty of believing in yourself, you know, the, the more people that doubt you, I think the the more special the story is.
[00:19:56] So yeah, I'd, I'd say kind of, you know, listen to yourself, be true to [00:20:00] yourself. And I also think like there's no replacement for hard work. Even if you are really not talented and, and physically gifted, there's a way that you can make things work. And, you know, the, the more hard work you put in, the, the more likely good outcomes are gonna happen, whatever that may be in life.
[00:20:14] You know, not just rugby, but, but anything. So I think there's, yeah, like you said, there's no substitute for hard work and believing in yourself. 
[00:20:22] Arthur: Yeah, a hundred percent. It's what you put in is what you'll get out. 
[00:20:24] Charlie Bracken: Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. One way or another. 
[00:20:28] Arthur: Uh, Tommy Freeman, he got released from Leicester at 16.
[00:20:31] Look at him now. Lions. Sixes. 
[00:20:33] Charlie Bracken: Wow. I didn't, I didn't realise that he got released from Leicester at 16. Did he? Yeah. So I bet, I bet they were gutted that they released him looking back. 
[00:20:43] Arthur: Yeah. When he was, um, younger. He wasn't actually that tall. He had his growth spurt when he was in sixth form. So I think that's probably the reason they released him. 
[00:20:51] Charlie Bracken: As I said, like, you know, you always get that growth spurt at some point, and like you look at him, he's so skillful. Obviously he's really physically talented now as well, but [00:21:00] he's so, he's such a skillful winger and can play so many positions because like you said, you know, he, if he was smaller when he was younger, he had to work on those things to be good enough at that level.
[00:21:08] So no, it's a credit to him and yeah. Poor Leicester for letting him go. 
[00:21:14] Arthur: You went to Loughborough while on your academy contract, how did you balance university and professional rugby and would you recommend that path? 
[00:21:23] Charlie Bracken: Yeah, I'd absolutely recommend it to, to absolutely everyone. I think uni's great, obviously, different things are coming about now with kind of apprenticeships and doing different types of work, but I think socially it was, it was really good for me.
[00:21:36] I think, so where I went to school in St. Albans is where Sarries train so because I wanted to go and study and also I didn't wanna stay in St. Albans really 'cause I'd been there my whole life and I was like, I just, you know, wanna get out this place and experience something different. So I went to Loughborough in my, in my first year.
[00:21:53] I was back at Sarries every now and then to play a few games and do a bit of training. But especially when you are, [00:22:00] 17, 18, and you are, you've just joined for the squad for the first time. If you're not like a Noah Caluori who you know, plays immediately, a lot of the time, you know, you go on loan and you don't really.
[00:22:11] There's not much of a difference of being at uni and, and being at a club for your personal development. And I think for me it was something that I really needed because it gave me a bit of that, a bit of that balance. Like I really wanted to focus on my studies still. Uh, it was great for me socially.
[00:22:25] And also the rugby was a really high level, like the Bucks system I think is, I think is great. You meet so many different people from so many different parts of the UK and, and abroad and the rugby team, you know, it's made up of Irish people, of, of English people from the north, people from the south.
[00:22:41] You learn a different way of playing. And I think as well it teaches you a bit of grit as well. Because when I first went to Loughborough, I wasn't, I didn't start in the, in the first team. I was, I was in the second team and then made my way up onto the bench and then at the end of the season was kind of getting a few starts here and there.
[00:22:59] But because you have [00:23:00] so many boys that go to uni as well, it's not as straightforward as, oh, go to uni, you'll just play loads of rugby there. You have to, you have to work for it. So, no, I've really enjoyed my time at Loughborough and I'm still there now part-time doing my university. So I've got one year left there.
[00:23:13] I'm studying geography, so I've got one year left. But because it's part-time, I do most of my stuff online and then go up every now and then. Um, but I'm not playing any rugby for them anymore. But it was a great experience and I still do like to, you know, go up to Loughborough, see some of my mates. But yeah, it'd be good to get my, my degree done soon.
[00:23:30] Arthur: That was quite cool. Especially do people come around you be like that guy plays for Saracens? 
[00:23:36] Charlie Bracken: Every now and then. But to be fair, I think because I still, you know, I've had a lot of my mates up there and also at Loughborough you get so many superstars there, um, that uh, you know, athletics, like all the different sports, you have loads of loads of boys that have done really well there.
[00:23:50] Like Freddy, Freddy Steward went there as well. And I can imagine when he goes there, um, everyone loves him, but no, I don't, I don't really get recognised when I go up there. 'cause I, I, [00:24:00] yeah, I just go and see my mates keep, keep my head down and go to some of my lectures. But yeah, I'm looking forward to, to getting my degree done because I've split it.
[00:24:08] I will have been at uni for five years, so that feels quite, I feel quite old after doing that. 
[00:24:15] Arthur: What's the hardest part of being a young 9 competing for a starting spot against experienced internationals? 
[00:24:22] Charlie Bracken: I think that's a, I think that's a really good question. Again I think being a position like a 9 or 10 can be pretty tough when you're young.
[00:24:29] I think, especially if you're an outside back or yeah, fullback say it can be a bit easier to rely on your speed and stuff to get you into a team like Noah, although he's, you know, unbelievably skilled because he's such a freak. He can go and play in any position, whereas if you're a scrum half or fly half your skill set needs to be unbelievably sharp for you to end up playing.
[00:24:51] And I think as well, what can be tricky when you're a 9 or a 10 is a lot of coaches like to have quite experienced halfbacks so that [00:25:00] they can control the game well. And you know, it's quite a position that needs quite a bit of experience. So to be able to compete against, you know, international scrum halfs or scrum halfs that are say 30 years old and experience so much, you have to bring a bit of a different edge.
[00:25:15] And I think for me, that's, that's been the thing is being able to play with speed and play with tempo, but also have a really good understanding of the game so that I can then control the game as well as, say a 30-year-old scrum half can control the game. And I think that takes a lot of different things.
[00:25:31] It takes a lot of experience, which I've had from, you know, going to university for example, going to Ampthill, and experiencing different things, but also, you know, kind of studying the game a bit and having an understanding of how you want to play the game. So I think, yeah, it's it is tricky being able to compete with some of the top scrum halfs, but I think, just proving to the coaches that you understand the game and that you can control the game is a massive, massive point for a, for a 9 or a 10.
[00:25:59] Arthur: Yeah, I see. In [00:26:00] like, you know, inside the rows on YouTube the England camp they call like George Furbank, the players call him like a coach and he's like, yeah, and I can see why England sometimes he's pick him 'cause he's a game manager. 
[00:26:11] Charlie Bracken: Exactly, yeah. And we have the same thing with, with Owen Farrell, he's obviously still playing at Sarries, but he's basically a coach at the same time, especially for the younger kids, which I think is great.
[00:26:22] You know, obviously he'll train, but then at the same time with all the analysis that he does, he'll be able to pull up a session, be like, we need to change this, this, and this, and then we'll do that and will look so much better. So it is great to have someone like him and someone like George Ford who when I went into England camp once, he was, he was phenomenal.
[00:26:40] Like not only a great speaker and a great analyzer and understand of the game, but the way that he communicates is, is great as well. And he's a great leader. And same with Owen, like both of them have experienced so much and know so much about the game, 
[00:26:54] Arthur: which three things you think are most important to be a good scrum half? 
[00:26:58] Charlie Bracken: Yeah, great question as well. [00:27:00] I think number one is the skillset being able to pass, being able to kick, uh, in different situations and different styles of kicking, you know, little attacking kicks, box kicks, but having that fundamental of having a good pass from, from the base and from a line out and having a good box kick and clearance kick.
[00:27:19] I think those are, those are fundamental to be able to play at a high level. I think secondly, another thing of the game is, is about being a good organiser. I think being able to organise your forwards organise your backs, make the right decisions in certain scenarios. So being able to organise and manage the game is another massive point, which I think you get through experience, but you also get from watching, you know, for example, if you go and watch England play, you can see how well the scrum halfs there manage the game and at, and at an elite level, um, to understand that sometimes, you know, obviously you wanna play with the ball, but you can end up overplaying and that can result in the other team getting a penalty or the other team [00:28:00] getting territory.
[00:28:00] So being able to understand the management side of the game, I think is important. And then thirdly, I was, I'd say probably, you know, your fitness and your, and your speed, uh, are two big parts because I think, for example, for me, in a game I probably run seven or eight kilometres a game if I played a, if I played a full 80 minutes.
[00:28:18] So it's, it's tiring work. You know, you, you run a fair bit of distance. So being able to keep up that skillset and that decision making throughout the 80 minutes, I think is a big, a big part of the game. And then I'd add one more is probably just your ability to, to scan. So obviously like you being a, a fly half, being able to look where the space is, find what you can do, whether that be a kick in behind or you can see that there's a space on out wide, so you throw that pass over the top.
[00:28:45] I think it's the same for a Scrum half, being able to see where the spaces are and you know, whether you should go down the blind side or how many numbers you have. Being able to keep your head up and, and look and play. I think those are, those are probably the four main things. 
[00:28:58] Arthur: Yeah, no, I'd say welcome backing [00:29:00] myself.
[00:29:00] 'cause sometimes our coach doesn't really like kicking, so if I see a gap. I'm like, why not 
[00:29:06] Charlie Bracken: Mate Go for it. Go for it. I'd say especially when you're, when you're young, just try things like try your different kicks, try different grubers. And I'd also, I'd also say especially for young players in general, you know, don't just go and do, you know, your kicks off the tee or your restarts.
[00:29:21] Like, go and practise a load of different skills. Go, go practise grubbing off your weak foot for a session, or go practise just doing chips or doing spiral bombs. Play around with all of it. I know that they can be tricky, but it's something to, to practise when you're young, especially at, at your age.
[00:29:36] I think that's a, it's a great opportunity to just while you're young, have fun with it. Um, and just enjoy. 
[00:29:41] Arthur: Hundred percent. Like when I'm doing kicking in the garden, I work on my left foot because my coach says, you kind of gotta get nailed now. So that's when I've, I've, I think I've used that twice in a game now, so 
[00:29:52] Charlie Bracken: Wow.
[00:29:52] Arthur: Scored a try of it. So I was happy, I was happy. 
[00:29:54] Charlie Bracken: Oh, that's all I, I haven't used my weak foot in a game yet, so ahead of me. Uh, I should take some [00:30:00] tips from you, but Yeah, no, that, that's, that's absolutely awesome. I think if I could roll back the clock and, you know, practise more kicking on my, on my weak foot, I'd a hundred percent do it because it's almost like a bit of, bit of instinct really.
[00:30:12] The more you practise it, the more it feels natural to you. And obviously now you're able to do it in a game, like you're gonna be, you're gonna be set when you're older. So, no, I think that's great and, and keep up the work on that. 
[00:30:22] Arthur: Oh, thank you so I remember seeing a clip of you on TikTok last year.
[00:30:25] You've done box kicking. You did one off your left, but that was really good. 
[00:30:30] Charlie Bracken: Well, I am left footed, so that might be why, but no, I am, I, yeah, so I'm left footed, but I am trying to get better at my right. I can do at the minute what I think my level is that I can do a few rollers and like, kind of grubers, but I can do, and I can do like a half box kick as well, but I can't do a full one yet, so I'm just working on the power on that side.
[00:30:50] But it's just, it's, it's quite unnatural isn't, it's like brushing your teeth with the, with your weak hand. It's like, it's a weird, weird sensation and I look a bit funny doing it as [00:31:00] well, so I'm trying to, I'm trying to work here and there at, at getting it better. 
[00:31:04] Arthur: Yeah, it's like in cricket when you throw all of your left hand looks really weird, 
[00:31:08] Charlie Bracken: so I literally, literally, but to be fair, I think it's actually good to, to do, you know, stuff like that, especially for your weak handed pass as well, to just do everyday activities with the, with your other hand and do for example, do keepy-uppies on your, on your weak foot just to become, try and get ambidextrous.
[00:31:24] That's what my dad is actually ambidextrous. He can, oh, I dunno. Which, what the name for it is. He can kick off both, both feet and pass off both hands and he doesn't really know the difference. So if I could get to that level, I'd be, I'd be very impressed. But I don't think I'd, yeah, it'll take a while. 
[00:31:39] Arthur: So are you right-handed?
[00:31:40] Charlie Bracken: I'm right-handed, left footed. Yeah. But I'd say I, I do prefer passing off my left, you know, that sort of thing where you'd, I'd write with my right hand, but sometimes I feel like I can get a better pass off my left. So yeah, I'd say I'm right-handed, but maybe in rugby I prefer the left. 
[00:31:56] Arthur: It must be quite cool being really ambidextrous.
[00:31:58] It's quite a lot of, some of my friends [00:32:00] are quite ambidextrous 
[00:32:01] Charlie Bracken: I can imagine. You are as well. You strike me as someone with a good pass off of both hands. What, what handed are you? Are you right-handed? 
[00:32:06] Arthur: I'm right-handed, but to be fair I used to, I worked on my pass when I was younger like pass to my brother.
[00:32:11] Charlie Bracken: Nice.
[00:32:12] I like that as well. And are you right footed as well, 
[00:32:14] Arthur: right footed as well 
[00:32:16] Charlie Bracken: Oh, nice, nice. I, yeah, I sometimes it's actually better to be a right. I wish I was a, a right foot to some of the times, especially 'cause sometimes off the scrum when the scrum half is, you know, obviously marking you if you can go the other way and kick off your right foot, that's quite a useful skill to have.
[00:32:31] But because I'm on the left, the scrum half can mark me on the left. So yeah, I definitely need to practise my right a bit. 
[00:32:37] Arthur: I suppose that that's what makes you different. Like Henry Slade, one of the reasons why he's chosen for the England squad. 'cause he has the left foot, he can kick for touch. 
[00:32:44] Charlie Bracken: Exactly.
[00:32:45] I think I need to work on that as well. A bit of a kick for touch. But yeah, like you said, you know, you can, you can use it to your advantage as well. Having that I, having a left boot is, can be good sometimes, so Yeah, I guess, guess I can use it to my advantage as well. 
[00:32:59] Arthur: who at Saracens [00:33:00] has been the biggest influence on your development and what have they given you? 
[00:33:05] Charlie Bracken: Oh, that's another great question. I think probably the person who's helped me the most, especially growing up was my academy coach, James Tyrell. He, he still works as kind of the, the senior academy coach now. But when I was growing up you know, he, he gave me a lot of confidence when I was playing. You know, he worked on my skillset with me and he really believed me, believed in me.
[00:33:26] And I think still to this day, you know, he really, he really backs me and he still does loads of stuff with me. So he's been someone who has really, I think, got me to the level that I am at now and given me the confidence to go and play, especially when I was playing for Ampthill he was my coach at Ampthill.
[00:33:41] So he is been a coach kind of all the way up, but he's, you know, he's had a massive impact on, on the way that I try and play and my mindset going into games. And also he's so knowledgeable as well. He's, you know, he is coached loads of sides. He, he is coached under 20s as well, so he's, you know, been coaching [00:34:00] rugby for the years and, and seen it with loads of unbelievable players.
[00:34:03] So he's been someone that's really helped my development. And he's, and he's been a great coach for loads of the young lads. So a lot of the boys in my year especially, you know, owe a lot to him. 
[00:34:14] Arthur: What kind of skills would you say he taught you? 
[00:34:17] Charlie Bracken: I think definitely, like, especially when I was kind of younger, we'd do a lot of sessions where he would record my passing.
[00:34:23] So he'd do a line out pass and he'd record my passing and put it in slow motion almost. And so I'd be able to analyse my pass with him like, oh, my chest was a bit low here. Maybe if I change it like that. And we'd, we'd go through and we'd sit down on the laptop and have a, have a look at the sessions.
[00:34:39] But he'd, what he'd also do would be, he'd clip up my games that I'd play for Ampthill saying we'd go through them and we'd look at the good clips, the bad clips, like what I could do better in certain scenarios. So I think being able to analyse not only my skillset in terms of my passing and kicking but in terms of being able to go through a game with a coach and you know, me say my [00:35:00] thoughts, he say his and, you know, collaborate with him there.
[00:35:02] That's been really, really helpful. And I think that's a great thing for especially young players to do, is to go through their game with someone that's maybe a bit more experienced than them or just look through your game with a friend and, discuss, oh, should I have done something there?
[00:35:15] It's quite good now, especially when you get more up the level loads of the games recorded, so you can just go back and, and watch a game. I dunno if you have it, but they've started introducing like the VEO cameras. Yeah. So then you can go and watch back your game, which is, which seems great. 
[00:35:29] Arthur: Yeah. No, we had a coach who had a VEO cameras, he used to video games, but now he's left, so it's bit annoying.
[00:35:35] But, 
[00:35:35] Charlie Bracken: ah, I think you should, yeah. See if you can get onto your coaches about getting more of them. Said you'd love to watch your games. Tell them Charlie says that you should get some VEO cameras. 
[00:35:44] Arthur: I will. 
[00:35:45] Charlie Bracken: Good. Good. 
[00:35:47] Arthur: What is it about the Saracens culture that makes it such a consistent producer of top players? 
[00:35:54] Charlie Bracken: That's another great question. I think Sarries is just a, a great environment. It's a very family [00:36:00] orientated environment and it's a place where everyone treats everyone with respect and treats everyone really well. Like even the backroom background staff, like, you know, they make the environment as good as it can be and they also try and involve the families and the players and they're very, very involved with the players.
[00:36:16] And I think also, the, the respect there is is driven through hard work as well. So I thinks you know, rest on their values of working hard as well. And I think that because a lot of the boys work really hard and to get in the team, you need to show that you can work hard through doing things like, you know, the fitness tests and whatever.
[00:36:35] Um, I think people earn a lot of respect for each other through doing those hard things. And I think because everyone wants to fight for each other and everyone wants to work hard for each other, and there's, there's a feeling of togetherness in the group as well. I think, some of my best mates are, are at Sarries and you know, even if I'm one of the younger boys and you've get boys that are, you know, 29, 30 years old, we all, we all get on and have fun and have great socials and I think that's the thing that [00:37:00] really connects you and makes you better on the rugby pitch as well, which is why I think, like you said, there's been so much talent produced because there's just such a great environment and everyone gets on with everyone and it's very, there's loads of togetherness, which I think is crucial to, to win titles really.
[00:37:17] Arthur: who are your best mates at Sarries? 
[00:37:19] Charlie Bracken: I've got quite a few, uh, a lot in my year. There's for example, James Isaacs, he's a really close mate of mine, Tobias, uh, Nathan Olamide, who's actually my business partner or to be business partner. We're, we're making a little a little business where we're trying to maximise the potential of kind of elite young athletes into the professional environment.
[00:37:41] So gonna be starting a bit of a bit of work with him. So, you know, I have, I have loads of great mates through there and a lot of mates that has left as well. For example, I've got a mate, Louie, who's, who's gone off to Ealing as well. So you really do make friends for life there. 
[00:37:55] Arthur: That's so cool. That business as well.
[00:37:57] When's that kicking off then? 
[00:37:59] Charlie Bracken: Hopefully it's [00:38:00] kicking off in round about September. We're gonna do a trial run then. But then after that, we'll we're gonna expand it, so if you are, if you are keen, then I'll, I'll send you a link and get you involved. But yeah, we are just about not just rugby players to be fair, but um, kind of young athletes teaching them a bit about what it's like to be a professional, you know, the psychology side of things and also the physical performance side of things where we'll kind of like, hopefully develop young players physically at the, at the Sarries gym and the Sarries facility.
[00:38:30] So yeah, it's something that's in the, in the pipeline. But it will be, yeah, it won't probably start until. Sep September, October. But I'll let you know when we kick off. 
[00:38:39] Arthur: Oh, that's so cool. My birthday's in September, so 
[00:38:42] Charlie Bracken: Oh, maybe a birthday present for you then. Sounds good. Sounds good. 
[00:38:48] Arthur: Yeah, no, we, um, you know, Warwick, he toured us round Saracens, so we actually went there.
[00:38:53] it was a couple months ago, but yeah, it was, so you're playing warming up with cricket, so that was really cool. 
[00:38:58] Charlie Bracken: Oh, I love that. I love that. [00:39:00] Yeah, we do tend to warm up with either cricket or football. Like we, we play loads of just random different sports to warm up, but I think that's, I quite like that.
[00:39:08] 'cause you know, it get, it is something different, something to do. But yeah. I hope you enjoyed it there and, and you are always welcome back. So if you wanna, if you wanna come in, just drop me a, drop me a message and I'll, um, let you know. 
[00:39:19] Arthur: Oh, thank you so much, Charlie. That would be amazing. 
[00:39:22] Charlie Bracken: No worries at all. No worries at all. I think you're doing such a, such a great job here. And it'd be, yeah, it'd be great to have you in and, you know, I can get you, I can get onto some other players for you as well, I'm sure. 
[00:39:33] Arthur: Oh, thank you so much, Charlie. I really appreciate that. 
[00:39:36] Charlie Bracken: No worries at all. 
[00:39:37] Arthur: would you prefer in training, football or cricket? 
[00:39:41] Charlie Bracken: Oh, good question. I think more of a footballer myself. I was goalie when I grew up and I was actually quite good in goal until the goals got bigger and I just didn't grow and I was just getting lobbed all the time.
[00:39:52] So that then put me off goalie a bit. So I'm kind of a centre back when we played football, but cricket has never been, never been my thing. I was a bit [00:40:00] of a wicket keeper, but I find it a bit too long. But yeah. How about you? Are you, uh, what other sports do you like? Are you football, cricket?
[00:40:06] Arthur: Uh, I, I really like football. Really Like cricket, hockey, golf, padel, tennis. 
[00:40:11] Charlie Bracken: mate that that's, that's the thing to do. Just play as many sports as you can while you, whilst you're young because it helps you so much with everything, with your coordination, with your fitness, with everything.
[00:40:21] So keep up that for as long as you can. 
[00:40:23] Arthur: I suppose it's also like scary that if you do football, if anybody studs like a Maro or Nick, 
[00:40:29] Charlie Bracken: to be fair, what we do is we play backs football and forwards football. So it's to make the level a bit, uh, a bit more similar, but yeah, like you have some really good footballers in the team.
[00:40:39] Um, like Owen Farrell's really good. Elliot Daly's really good, you know, they're, they're proper footballers. So we do young boys versus old boys and I'm just about, I'm still in the young boys, but just about, I think I might be called over to the old boys next year. Yeah. But to be fair, it is, it is quite even there's some good young players as well.
[00:40:57] But yeah, no, no forwards. Luckily otherwise [00:41:00] I'd be staying well away from Maro. 
[00:41:03] Arthur: Yeah. When we were actually at Saracens, I was talking to Jamie George because we were talking about the cricket they were warming up with. He said, yeah, it's a bit boring Elliott Daly. He's really good at everything. 
[00:41:11] Charlie Bracken: Yeah, he is.
[00:41:12] You got a few players like that. The ones that, there's another guy called Angus Hall who's uh, in my brother's year and he's like, he's just, any sport, he's unbeliev, he's unbelievable at golf, paddle, tennis, like anything. And I think that makes you so like a, so much better rugby player. So I think, yeah, I'd say to you, just keep up all those sports.
[00:41:32] It's so good for, good for, you know, it's good fun as well when you're good at lots of sports. It's good fun. 
[00:41:37] Arthur: Yeah, a hundred percent. And you kind of fit in as well if someone says come play hockey. 
[00:41:41] Charlie Bracken: Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. 
[00:41:45] Arthur: You've represented England at under 18, under 20 level, what does a senior cap mean to you and how are you working towards it. 
[00:41:53] Charlie Bracken: Yeah, another great question. I mean, I'd love to play for England. Obviously, you know, my dad's played 50 odd times for, [00:42:00] for England, and it's something that I would absolutely love to do. I think I've been in, yeah, like you said, done some England eighteens England twenties been in an England camp and the environment there is great.
[00:42:10] Like, it's such a step up. And the intensity's so high. And, um, yeah, I would love to represent England. I think you know, the big thing would be the, the World Cup squad. That would be something that I'd, I'd set my sights on. And I think I just wanna have the best season possible, um, in this upcoming season to put my best foot forward.
[00:42:27] I think obviously we've got Tomos Williams coming in, so hopefully I get some, some good game time and, and learn a lot from him as well. So I'm just trying to, yeah, maximise my learning, maximise my skill set and hopefully have a good season to put my best foot forward. But yeah, I would love to pay for England.
[00:42:42] It'd be something that would yeah, be a lifelong dream. 
[00:42:45] Arthur: Yeah. Hopefully you can do better than what England did in the Worldcup this year. We did. Well, yes, 
[00:42:49] Charlie Bracken: yes, yes. Fingers, fingers crossed. Fingers crossed. But yeah, yeah, God, that was devastating the football. I thought it was coming home. But yeah, hopefully we can, hopefully it could do better.
[00:42:59] But [00:43:00] yeah, fingers crossed. 
[00:43:01] Arthur: exactly. A final question, what's one piece of advice you'd give to a young scrum half at a grassroots club Who wants to make it? 
[00:43:12] Charlie Bracken: Great question. I'd say my one piece of advice, well, I, I'll give two. Sorry. My one piece, my first piece of advice would be hard work beats talent every day of the week.
[00:43:23] The harder, you know, the more effort you put in and the, the harder you work the more good outcomes you get. And that's just, that's just facts. Obviously there's a bit of luck involved, but I think the harder you work on your skillset, especially on your passing and your kicking, when you get to an elite level, you'll be so far ahead of the curve that it just puts you in such a good spot.
[00:43:43] And at the end of the day, if there's someone who's, you know, quicker or, or fitter than you or yourself who's got the best pass and the best kick in the team, then you know, you are the one who's gonna get selected over them. Because coach, that's what coaches, want the most out of the scrum half.
[00:43:57] And I think the second point that I'd put [00:44:00] in there is just have fun and enjoy it. Like there's no point in being, you know, wanting to become professional and being miserable about it. Like, just enjoy your rugby, enjoy all your sports, like, like you're doing yourself. You know, your tennis, your padel, all your cricket.
[00:44:13] Keep those up for as long as you can. And have fun with it because, the minute you lose the love for it is the minute that it's just not really gonna happen. And I think you've gotta keep that love for the game. Gotta keep that enjoyment and just play rugby. 'cause you love it. 
[00:44:26] Arthur: A hundred percent.
[00:44:27] A quote I quite like, is 'I dream my painting and I paint my dream'. 
[00:44:30] Charlie Bracken: Wow. 
[00:44:31] Arthur: So i'll dream it then I'll do it. 
[00:44:33] Charlie Bracken: Full of wisdom. You are. I have to say, you got some, got some great quotes in there. I should, I should put that up on my wall. Um, but yeah, no, I've, I really like that. I really like that. You gotta you gotta see it.
[00:44:43] You gotta believe it. And yeah, keep dreaming and stuff like that, but yeah, mate, you, you seem like you're very full of wisdom, so, yeah. I'll, I'll have to get some quotes off of you to put up in my put up in my bedroom. 
[00:44:54] Arthur: Thanks so much. Well, it'll come from my mom a bit because my mom's a leadership coach so I can't 
[00:44:59] Charlie Bracken: Ah, [00:45:00] that's where you get it from.
[00:45:01] I was gonna say, I was gonna say, must have had some influence from somewhere. I love, I absolutely love that. Well, I think that puts you in great stead. 'cause you, you sound like you'd be a great captain as well with, with your word. So, yeah. Thank you for having me on though. It's been, it's been a pleasure and, you know, keep up the good work.
[00:45:16] I think it's, I think it's great what you're doing at the minute. 
[00:45:18] Arthur: Oh, thanks so much, Charlie. You've been an amazing guest. I love speaking with you, the insight you gave us. So good. Thank you so much. 
[00:45:25] Charlie Bracken: No worries. Well have a good holiday and I hope you enjoy holidays. 
[00:45:28] Arthur: Oh, thank you very much. You too.




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