DISCUSSION: Kylian Mbappé

Paul Schmidt-Troschke & Jon Bonfiglio look at the rise and rise of the man who was once the boy wonder, and is now a central figure for the French nation, and the central figure for its national side. 

1 SPEAKER_01: Hello everyone, welcome back to World Cup

Football, etc., where it's time for us finally to talk about

him, the inevitable Killian Mbappé.

A figure who I confess I feel at best ambivalent about at club

level, but who at the World Cup is just nothing less than

irresistible.

Joining me to discuss uh Mr.

Mbappé, King Killian is uh Paul Schmidt Troschka.

Hello, Paul.

SPEAKER_02: Hello, John.

SPEAKER_01: Um, let's start.

Of course, we're talking about this.

We're recording this in the um in the hours after the the

highly one-sided encounter between France and um and

Morocco, and it's just kind of felt time that we do a little

focus on uh on Killian as well.

Maybe we can just start on your perspective on um Mr.

Mbappé, which purely from a footballing perspective, please.

SPEAKER_02: All right.

Um he is extremely unique, he is um unstoppable, uh the most

unstoppable of all, of course, not always unstoppable, but at

least when he starts his sprint, you never know what's gonna

happen.

And more probably he's gonna um gonna come out of it um

successful uh after after having scored a goal.

Uh extremely physical player, um, always has a smirk on his

face, he never takes stuff too serious.

I think that's uh that's a very very key part of his um of his

personality.

Um and and I mean he he's a record holder, um not only in in

his home country of France, where he has a fierce

competition, of course, historically.

Um for example, uh Thierry Henry might might come to my mind

first.

And um just this statistic, he scored 431 goals in 573 um

career matches, professional career matches.

Um he's he's an amazing, an amazing player.

And I mean he he still has some years to go.

I mean, if you think about Ronaldo, for example, he um of

course famously set out this goal of um of scoring 1,000

career goals.

And I mean he is now in his uh in his early 40s.

So if everything goes well for Killian Mbappé, um then he

definitely um can extend the lead, and uh we can be happy to

to see him play for another um at least 10 10 odd years, and he

is extremely resilient, both um both in regards to his

physicality.

Um I mean he never has been really plagued by injuries.

Um that's always always something um you're um where

you're not really um having a huge influence on, of course.

Either you are more resilient or you're not, and you have to be

lucky a little bit as well.

And this um this resilience, of course, translates as well into

his uh into his psyche.

Um you you can't really um you can't really, I don't know, take

him uh take the the fun away from uh the fun of playing on

the pitch, away from him, no matter what what happens um on

or off the pitch, um he he never let uh he never gives up, he

never surrenders.

Um it is just uh a person which um which stands for for many uh

superlatives.

SPEAKER_01: Yeah, um maybe we can just talk a little bit about

what you mean about him being unique.

I mean, because you know, on the face of it, if you think about

his attributes, they don't he doesn't seem to be that special.

I mean, yeah, he's fast, but he's not the fastest.

He's a he's a good dribbler, but he's not the most incredible uh

dribbler.

He's got a good shot on him, but it's yeah, I mean, that's

probably one of the the sort of the standout um aspects of his

of his game, his his ability to sort of find really small, um,

to sort of thread, if you like, um, through the eye of the of

the needle.

But all of those things don't seem to add up to sort of a

unique footballing professional.

I think it's almost the who he is behind the football, his

character behind it that is the kind of the the the driver.

And I think when you talk about his longevity, I mean, of

course, we're a long way off that.

I mean, lots of different things can can happen to limit a

player's career, but it also um I think it he he has the

attributes to be able to evolve his game, I think, a bit like a

bit like a messy.

He definitely sees things, he definitely reads the game in a

way that others don't.

You can really see that with how he takes up positions, he

doesn't trap himself and he doesn't follow the ball either.

He um he he sort of thinks outside of the box.

He there's there's a phrase he uses which I really like, which

is about sort of um clearing out space or opening up space uh for

for other players, and he often does that as well.

It's it's uh I mean it's a bit it's a complete cliche this, but

but he doesn't play the game of football in a straightforward

manner.

There's there's lots of it always feels if you watch him

and where he is as though there's lots of different things

that are going on, in which actually, although we fixate on

him as an individual, he's actually often doing uh

generating uh sort of moves or space as much for others as he

is for himself.

SPEAKER_02: Yes, um to your first point, I think that is

what what it's not one thing that makes him unique.

Um for example, I don't know if you think about Maradona, he had

an exceptional feeling for um for the ball and how it moves,

and the the ball and his body basically were were one, right?

And with Mbappé, it is, I would say, completely the the

opposite.

Um the the fact that he does not really stand out in like a very

specific category, but he has all he needs, he's a very, very

well formed player.

Um, that makes him unique because you you don't find that

very rarely, as well as you find somebody being very, very good

in one specific thing, very, very rarely.

Um and uh and all that combined uh then makes him unique.

And I think that he already uh developed a lot, of course,

right?

Um if we think back um at his at his very early times, uh when he

was um I think he was about uh 17 when he when he came to PSG,

yeah um in the in the in the first team.

And I think that at this time, very understandably, his ego

watch uh was still much bigger.

He attempted many more uh many more dribblings, um many more um

sort of uh I I I can do it alone.

And in many cases, he actually could do it alone, but to he

evolved from that because he realized okay, I can actually do

better, I can do much more for the team.

And that's um and that probably happened then over the last um,

I don't know, five, six years, really, um, that he now is a is

a really a team player, right?

You don't see this these these uh actions alone too often

anymore.

And and I mean if he he plays in teams where he is always

rivaled, right?

Um and but what he never forgets is that uh um that he he can't

take things for gr for granted, so he's always always pushing

himself.

Of course, he also he has has um highs and lows, right?

I mean, Real Madrid had a terrible season last year, and

you could see that this was definitely getting to him, and

then with the with the this open petition of like um getting rid

of him and stuff like this, but not in is it's it doesn't really

get get to him in a sense that it that it um kind of um harms

him in in a long-term sense, and also he he still is able in in

these um I mean in in in in a football sense, dark hours or or

dark days, weeks, months, whatever, uh to not lose his

humor and always uh I mean he he joked about the the petition,

for example, right?

And um and doesn't take it too seriously.

Um so all the different components from his from his um

from his playing on the pitch, um his individual skills, then

combined with his with his psyche, which is definitely a

and I think this is more a unique feature of him, that his

psyche is um and how he behaves, what he says, in in which

moments, um that is what um what makes him special, and what also

then on the on the public stage in in press conferences, etc.,

makes him stand out.

Um, because he, for example, he just says that he he he

discourages people from voting for the far right, right?

I mean, what player do you do you do you um do you hear that

saying, right?

Um, but he can say it first because he has the standing, and

because his point is not just to to catch some um well how to say

the to catch some some attention, but he's a very

well-educated man, so it comes from a very very calculated, um,

honest, sincere, and thought, thoughtful place.

SPEAKER_01: Yeah, the um I mean he's definitely matured and

developed over uh over a period of time.

There's there's little doubt there.

Also interesting.

I mean, we we spoke about this in the previous podcast, but um

when we were talking with with Declan, but um uh he he is

clearly a player um who is sort of different for for club and

country.

And I I wonder now, as you say, he's a he's a smart guy.

Um and let's come to his sort of open uh critique of the far

right and his um his intellectualism in a minute, but

I also wonder now, because he clearly must know what Real

Madrid stands for, right?

He's been there since 2024, so he's been there for um this is

now his uh his full second year that he's been there.

I wonder if he's beginning to be resentful of what it is that

Real Madrid stand for, because as he's evolved, he definitely,

as you say, has become much more of a team player.

And that's not to say that he sort of he hides um from from

the limelight at all, but um there is increasingly, I think,

a sort of sense of him um square peg round hole uh with him being

at Real Madrid in a way that I never thought, you know, when he

left Paris Saint-Germain and there was all that noise about

him leaving and then going to Madrid, and it was all kind of

quite um, I don't know, it was all quite tawdry, uh, that that

sort of move across inevitable, and there was these threats that

it was going to happen for for ages, and then finally it did.

I'm not sure whether this Mbappé would be doing that, would be

doing that now, uh, in the same way as he did sort of two, three

years ago when he when he made that that agreement.

And as you say as well, with with Real Madrid, there is now

pretty significant distrust of Mbappé the figure, but probably

for the same reasons I've just outlined among the um the Madrid

faithful as well.

So it'll be interesting to see what happens in the next year or

two and whether he stays there or whether he moves on somewhere

else.

And if he does, where would he go?

What's the sort of the natural home for him?

Because anybody that moves on from Real Madrid, especially at

the peak of their powers, I mean, if you retire on somewhere

else, that's one thing.

But if you choose to leave Real Madrid to go somewhere else,

that's always an interesting question, I think, as as well as

regards what you what your decision making leads to.

Um, Paul, let's come to uh Mbappé as a kind of cultural

icon.

Um he obviously in the last few days, we've touched on this a

little bit.

There was this whole thing with a Paraguayan senator after the

the match against Paraguay, in which he made a racist attack

specifically on Mbappé, and also on his on his teammates, arguing

that uh it wasn't really a French team at all, but that it

was kind of rooted in in Africa.

And um uh I mean he immediately responded and he immediately

responded in a really forceful way and kind of called her out

and shamed her.

And I think other players would do that as well, but maybe other

players wouldn't see themselves as being such a such a clear

representative of inclusionist uh French policies and race

politics as Mbappé does.

SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean um back to back to his back to his

education.

Um he he really has uh has the ability to find the the right

words in or he found definitely the the right words and also uh

which the senator probably did not expect, he also has the the

intellectual capacity um to to actually understand what she was

saying and how dick how ridiculous um it sounds.

I mean uh that's my point now, but uh coming from uh from a

country which uh is uh was also founded by by uh colonial powers

by the by the Spanish.

And um and it at first it doesn't make any sense, and um

and he he has the backing from the uh from the public behind

him, right?

He um he is already a a big pop cultural figure in football,

probably right now, I would say definitely the biggest figure.

Um and he uh he is just uh loved for for how how he acts, but

especially also for um for these moments, uh very, very I would

say carefully calculated moments when it actually uh when it

furthers his his cause or his beliefs, when it actually makes

sense um to to uh yeah move uh on this political uh societal

level.

And I mean in this case he he was attacked, right?

Um and uh some players probably would have just uh in in

coordination with their fa um orchestrated something, but he

was just like defending himself on his own, knowing that he has

um the backing um of I mean broad backing at least of the um

of the public and and uh and that he's able to to win this

this uh this argument on the um on the open open stage.

SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but even if even if he didn't, I think,

because there's there's plenty of people in France and

internationally, they're just play now racist, and of course

it's a it's an increasing problem internationally as well.

But um even uh if he didn't think that he had backing, he'd

still it strikes me that he doesn't really give a damn.

He's just gonna say these things because it's who he is.

And we we've talked a lot about Vinnie Jr.

and understanding the fact that obviously the fact that you

can't understand Vinnie without knowing that he comes from the

favelas and that sort of the the rise through through um that

sort of uh um infrastructural inequality which uh Vinnie Jr.

has come through.

And in the same way, um you can't really understand Mbappé

without knowing that he grew up in the Banlieu.

Um the sort of suburbs of of Paris often referred to as sort

of working class um sort of areas, public housing and those

kinds of things.

And um, and he he's he's uh he's emerged from that, and he's

never forgotten that he's emerged uh from that.

And and the other thing I'd say is that um it's also really

remarkable how these parts of Paris now are also really a

production line for footballing talent.

There are 56 players from Paris at this World Cup, more than any

other city on earth.

And the vast majority majority of them are from the Banlieue,

from the from these uh sort of fringe, often impoverished um

suburbs as well.

So Mbappé being um uh a representative of those spaces,

I think is it's pretty crucial.

And then just going back to what you were saying before about uh

figures like Maradona, the thing about Maradona is he just seemed

to have an inhuman talent.

Whereas what we were saying before about uh Mbappé is that I

think we can see we can all see ourselves reflected in him

because he's good, but he doesn't look to be that actually

sort of incredible in terms of his skills.

He just comes across as somebody who's just worked damn hard

throughout his life to be with a vi with a sort of with a view

and a dream to be the best he possibly could be.

And he and he's he's uh he's molded himself into being that

kind of that kind of figure.

He has an incredible touch, but it's not the messy touch, it's

not the maradona touch.

SPEAKER_02: No, uh it it it it definitely isn't.

Back to the uh because that is that is uh becoming a very, very

central topic.

Um I think uh also will become more important.

Um the bandier, you you spoke about this this neighborhood.

I mean it is it I I would say it is definitely um for example he

had a psychologist from seventh grade onwards, and I think that

uh Vinnie Jr.

could use a little bit more of um of of uh of of time with with

a psychologist, um because psychology is and it still

baffles me why this is not um a more popular thing um already in

in teams that you um that you put much more emphasis on the on

the psychological part, because that is in the end um what what

what is a very very important determinator if you're actually

um able able to win.

I mean we've seen this with lots of underdog stories, right?

Um who make a long journey uh from I don't know the third

division, second division, and then playing in the first

division, um not necessarily having the the quality, but

having the belief that they can actually do it, right?

And I think that that this is um this is a very very important um

important thing um in his uh in his career.

And and also, I mean, the the French state is known to be uh

quite a big welfare state, right?

So you have these poor working class areas, um, but the state

did not, or at least in many cases, not tries not to abandon

them because their French uh policymakers are aware um that

this will only worsen everything, and you will lose

the grip um you have uh over these people.

And also, as we can see, there is so much talent in these

neighborhoods, as well as in other neighbor uh all other

neighborhoods in in the world.

Um, but in rich um neighborhoods, of course, you

have your parents which uh which support you much more also on a

financial basis.

You could they can pay for better education, etc.

etc.

And it is extremely important that um that you give especially

young kids who have an aspiration to do something great

or who have talent, that they can actually use this talent and

and and channel this um this um this will to perform or whatever

to to achieve something into a productive line.

Because what usually happens if you if you don't have have a

state which tries to take care or which is at least at least

conscious of the consequences if you if it does not care about

about people in in poor neighborhoods, they will search,

they will become successful, but not in the way you would like

them to be, right?

They they become uh involved in organized crime, etc., and make

maybe make uh make a career in in that um area, but that's of

course not what we um what we need for a for a healthy

society.

Um so I think that uh that these 56 players and many players

coming from the Banliere, they are actually a great

advertisement for um for a well-structured, um, or at least

how it is right now, as you can see the result, for a

well-structured welfare state.

SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's the um it's the old sort of raison

d'etre for but having boxing gyms in um in sort of

impoverished areas uh and having a sort of an outlet.

Of course, it can be lots of different things, but um, but

for sure, sort of sport and very specifically football, the great

equalizer that is, is football has historically and continues

to be a really important potential, not just a potential

outlet, but also um uh sort of a bringer of um of uh of role

models and discipline and sort of sport and exercise and

training to um to lots of different groups, uh, which is

you know, of course, really, really, really, really

important.

Um I'm uh intrigued to see how Mbappé evolves, continues to

evolve through the next few years.

Um he was definitely somebody I was pretty disinterested in

until fairly recently, but um, but his his evolution and his

maturing, I think, um have uh um I think have have taken him to a

really interesting uh place where he is sort of um loved and

admired by by uh lots of different people both within

France and uh and and without.

Paul, thanks for your uh for your time and for your comments

on uh Mr.

Mbappé.

And uh yeah, let's let's chart his his future and see where he

goes from here.

SPEAKER_02: All right, thank you so much, John, as well.

Bye bye.