DISCUSSION: World Cup Semi-Final Preview

Declan Link battles with his device in this World Cup semi-final preview of the blockbuster France vs. Spain and England vs. Argentina ties. 

1 SPEAKER_03: Everyone, welcome back to World Cup football, etc.

Where if I'm speaking a little bit faster than normal, it's

because of the sheer excitement at the fact that I am joined by

Paul Schmidt Troschke and Declan Link.

And it's been more than 24 hours since I spoke to Either.

I've I've had a bit of a chance to catch up on some World Cup

commentary and footage.

Declan Paul.

And it struck me, Paul, that um uh uh chierry Henry has uh, I

mean, of course, as well as being one of the the the world's

um famous uh player, football players, soccer players, but

also just how he has sort of um a great lilt to his voice.

I think um you you have something of the chierry Henri

about you when you speak sometimes, Paul.

SPEAKER_00: Oh wow, I didn't uh didn't expect you to uh to open

with such a such a big big compliment today.

SPEAKER_03: Well, don't get carried away because I've only

set that already am.

I could introduce Declan Link as the Alexi Delales.

SPEAKER_02: John, I saw that coming.

SPEAKER_00: I was gonna say Micah Richards.

SPEAKER_02: I saw that coming and I saw that coming an

absolute mile off.

That's ridiculous.

SPEAKER_03: I saw him and I thought, you know, under a

certain light, Declan, and with a certain angle.

I mean, you you're you you're a way better commentator than

Alexi Lallas, who who is one of the worst commentators of all

time.

He just has no self-awareness whatsoever.

But under a certain light, you you don't have a dissimilar uh

visage to him.

So I'm I'm not impressed with that because basically you're

calling me a ginger dickhead.

Well, not not the dickhead bit specifically, but um no, I I'm

sorry, you clearly are no Alexi Lalos, but I thought I'd bring

him up just because I I had heard some quotes from him, but

when I just was looking at um watching some some of the sort

of clashes that uh Thierry Henry and Slasan Ibrahimovich have had

with him recently, it is quite staggering his level of

ignorance.

SPEAKER_02: There's only six days to go, so don't put it

beyond either one of them to clock him or give him another

Glasgow uh handshake between now and Sunday.

SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's quite rocket because there's no they

they're not even hiding their intolerance.

It makes for quite compelling television because they both

just clearly and the and the um and the presenter also kind of

stuck with it, but both Zlatan and Thierry clearly just have no

time for him whatsoever.

SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and and again, maybe at the end of the day,

because everyone's talking about it, uh, although in the early

period of the Fox TV coverage over here in the States, they

might have thought, oh my god, what have we done?

It's actually become a major story, so that so it's a

sub-story, and and as you know, any news in and any sort of um

focus is better than nothing at all.

So, you know, maybe it's the greatest thing they ever did

with this soccer coverage over here.

SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's um it uh that definitely happened upon

some parallel compelling viewing, which actually has

nothing to do with the uh with the football.

But um let's move on.

We're gonna be previewing the semifinals of the uh of the

tournament today.

But before we do, Paul Deppin.

Paul, maybe we can just start with you just to get your

reaction to the the comments from Gianni and Fantino in the

last couple of days.

Well, two two stories really.

One is um the 64 team world cup, uh, but also the this idea that

the the um sections of the pitch that's gonna be used for for the

final in New Jersey are going to be sold off after the match.

Paul, which of those two stories would you like to begin with?

SPEAKER_00: Oh, maybe maybe the the pitch which is which is

gonna be sold.

Um, I mean uh by by now I think uh we we sh everybody should

expect something like this to happen.

Um the only thing I was surprised with that he actually

is not, I mean not yet.

Uh he that he might yet had announced that this money will

actually go directly into his own pocket.

And um I mean it is uh it is ridiculous.

Uh it's absolutely ridiculous.

I'm by now, um, I must say that over the over the World Cup the

the Johnny Infantino um comments have have dialed down and also

the controversies, uh probably because it was overshadowed by

by many things, uh and also because he did not have uh too

much time to um to say uh uh yeah uh words of uh of of

limited uh intelligence into a microphone.

Um but yeah, that's that's my my my very concise comment on the

first story.

SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I mean him and Alexi Lallas doing a joint

interview would be a side to to behold.

And just a separate point on Jenny Infantino, um obviously

we've seen him at pretty much him and John Terry at pretty

much every match at this World Cup, in which he's always under

the shade, but I can't remember which match it was.

I don't know whether you guys caught it the other day, Declan,

where he was sat full in the sun in his white shirt and tie and

uh and his bald pate was definitely struggling under the

the brute power of the sun.

It might actually have been the the uh the England Norway match.

SPEAKER_02: And my my my thing has given up on me.

SPEAKER_03: Your thing has given up on you.

What's it a sexual confession?

No, no, it's no no.

It's that fancy microphone we got.

Because it's got it's because it is it's it's got lights and

everything, isn't it?

It's quite it's also quite um yeah.

Uh uh how do I say this?

SPEAKER_02: It's um now now you can hear me.

SPEAKER_03: Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_02: For some reason it's been a bit temperamental the

last two or three times.

And uh this is a microphone.

This is the you know, the round thing, the round, the round

thing that makes that you know that makes us look a

professional.

Makes you happy.

Makes us look repression.

Oh god.

I'm not uh I'm not gonna keep turning on and off.

Is it flashing?

Is it flashing?

It's going now.

SPEAKER_03: It's like it's like John Travolta and saying, How

long how long have we got before it stops working again?

Um did you see Gianni Infantino sweating at the uh in in the

full face of the sun at the England Argentina, at the

England Norway match?

SPEAKER_02: Um I'm I'm assuming I I have watched all of the

highlights of the game, the extended highlights.

Uh he wasn't funny enough in my area in the stadium, so I didn't

see him up close.

So I'm gonna take your word for it.

But to be honest with you, uh that the temperatures, the

humidity, uh, and everything else, if if he's dressed up as

he normally does do, I'm not surprised one bit that he was

sweating and he's probably got a little um red top of his head

and everything else because um the conditions were incredible.

But as you said, it's just unless they've got like a a um

uh a look alike that turns up at some of the games, I just can't

believe with the carbon footprint with how he manages to

turn up at the vast majority of these games.

SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's it's been quite staggering, isn't it?

Because there's been a number of days in which there's multiple

games.

So it must be that he gets out, gets in a helicopter outside the

stadium, and then moves across to wherever on earth it is that

the next one is.

And the USA is not a small, um, a small country.

SPEAKER_02: But that isn't that what kings and leaders of the

world do?

And he's a king and the leader of the world.

SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I mean that that is it it is his

perspective, isn't it?

I mean, so only uh unelected individuals and the sort of the

Donald Trump to this world um say that the ongoing level of

stupid things that Gianni Infantino does.

But um he he does he does uh when he speaks, he it definitely

doesn't have an edit button.

He just says stuff as though um he's one of those individuals

that clearly doesn't have any sentient advisors close to him,

giving him giving him any any PR training.

But um Declan, just a quick uh thought on um because one of the

the things, of course, we've spoken about this uh 48 team

World Cup and the fact that it's it's been a great World Cup,

really, and we'll um for many reasons not Gianni and Fantino

related, and I'm sure we'll we'll after the the tournament

ends, we'll come back and talk about all of this.

But just your initial thoughts on this um the proposed

expansion to a 64 team World Cup.

SPEAKER_02: Again, like your um setup tonight with um the uh

Lexi Lala's thing, you can see it coming a mile off that uh you

know, because of the success or the perceived success globally

of this World Cup, because no one can argue that the vast

majority of the games have been absolutely superb, and and

that's really you know, arguably that could be luck with um Cape

Verde, Capo Verde, and uh Curacell, you know, doing so

well and becoming the darlings of the World Cup, but Johnny and

Jan Gianni Infantino is already throwing it out there, and it's

very obvious what he's going to do.

And I I think you know, because the way he's selling it to the

smaller FIFA nations in the world, there's an air of

inevitability that it will happen in 2034 in Saudi Arabia

because he's in bed with the Saudi Arabians as well.

So um I just think it's still going to be a diluted

competition.

And at the end of the day, I heard someone on one of my

sports uh stations today say, yeah, you can flower it up, you

can you know put lipstick on a pig and all that good of stuff,

but at the end of the day, it's all about money, and it doesn't

really matter because just like with this World Cup, FIFA, to

their credit, have done well predicting the top four seeds,

and we've got semi-finals with the top four seeds.

Um, and everyone's saying what a great World Cup it is, but FIFA

have somehow changed them, been able to almost alter the

mentality of people where they're chasing tickets now and

they're happy to spend um you know 1300, 1800, 2500 to watch a

game.

And so and they feel that they're lucky to have done that.

So in in um Saudi Arabia, obviously it's not going to be

the same sort of entrepreneurial capitalistic society, easy to

get to, um, other social issues going on there.

But I do think that there's a an absolute an air of inevitability

that we will be looking at a 64-team World Cup in 2034.

And uh, unless there's some way that Gianni Infantino can be uh

get get out of his job and and that we can get rid of him, uh

that's what's gonna happen.

SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I mean, it might even be earlier than that.

I mean, it could be 2030 given the fact that because one of the

things about this this expanded World Cup is that um it's gonna

mean 128 matches, uh, and that's gonna require huge

infrastructure.

So my sort of thinking is actually that potentially this

sort of multi-host um template could could work.

And and that almost might be a better way of keeping the three

nations of um of Spain, Portugal, and and Morocco happy.

Of course, for 2034, it's a it's a bigger issue because of um

Saudi Arabia and the Saudi Arabian, I guess, sort of

sporting infrastructure.

But they've already come out and said that they could quite

easily, they say, host um 64 teams.

They're building another 15 stadiums, uh, apparently.

Just a quick point of um, I guess just a quick explanation.

My understanding is that what this would mean is that an extra

four groups would be added, increasing the groups from 12 to

16.

And then, unlike at this World Cup, so we're not going to have

another round before the round of 32.

Basically, we'd have no third place sides going through.

So it would only be the top two in each group, as has always

previously happened.

So uh after the group stages, we'd go straight into that round

of 32.

Um, and then I think it's also worth noting in Fantino's

statement that the World Cup needs to be for, and I quote,

the whole world, not just Europe and South America.

Uh, he referenced the huge success of increasing the number

of African sides from five to ten in this edition, with nine

of those going through in um to the knockout stages.

So specifically, it seems what he's imagining is significant

growth of opportunity among Asian uh qualifiers, which I

think is is interesting.

And um, and you know, not that I would ever want to agree on

anything with uh Mr.

Infantino, but there is some logic towards making the World

Cup more of a world component as regards the finals, Paul.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah, uh I think that um that we definitely can

do a two-hour episode only only on this topic.

Because what I mean the if you look at the players, what what

um what kind of pansom they have um over a year with all these

different competitions, um, and with all these different

competitions, FIFA tries to uh tries to invent, or um or the

the regional um governing bodies try to try to uh invent uh and

bring into into being just because of the money.

And if I I personally I would like to see an expanded World

Cup, which of course would mean then as well that uh the World

Cup would be even longer, probably more six weeks than

this uh this year's five weeks.

Um because I think ultimately it's gonna be it's gonna be

definitely a better competition, right?

Um, and uh in the end, the winner will just have deserved

it even more uh compared to compared to this uh this 2026

edition.

Um yeah, but again, uh you have the Conference League, you have

the the Nations League, um you have the the club uh FIFA Club

World Cup.

Um you have so many uh different competitions who are still

expanding.

And um and I think that uh that all this, of course, only can

work if FIFA actually actually survives and if Johnny and

Fantino should should give a similar performance um as uh as

as to this year um or 2025, 2026.

Um I think that at some point the limit will be a certain

limit will be reached where I can see a UEFA, for example,

pulling out, which would completely um take away um any

any real power from uh from FIFA, at least at this point in

time, uh maybe in coordination with uh with another um another

uh continental governing body.

And um he he's definitely he's definitely uh gambling because

every every uh additional World Cup match and World Cup Day

takes away time from uh from the National Leagues, of course, and

the the other um continental competitions.

So I think that um I would like to see that, um, but I think

that we will reach uh some sort of breaking point where we will

see uh restructuring either on the um on the kind of uh

organizational side or actually on the how many competitions do

we are uh do we have, how extensive they are.

Um uh but yeah, I could I could talk on and on.

Um in the end, it's it's it's welcome, uh, an ex uh an

expanded World Cup.

SPEAKER_02: In in my opinion, John, ultimately uh uh FIFA and

and uh Gian Chiani and and his boys, they're looking to bring

in India and China and places like that.

Yeah, because uh, you know, uh if if I've been fortunate to

visit both places from a from a football perspective, and both

of those countries would absolutely love to be involved,

and then obviously you get those two countries involved with

their two massive populations, uh the TV rights, the the

everything would would would would go exponentially in favor

of FIFA from a financial perspective.

So they'll they'll talk about the small nations and they'll

give me money back to the game, etc.

etc.

But there's bigger fish to fly.

And if they can knock it out of the park with one or both of

those two humongous populations, then FIFA are laughing and he's

gonna be a god forever within the word of FIFA, John Channy

is.

SPEAKER_03: Yeah, this it's definitely um that's where the

the the sort of the financial landscape completely changes.

I mean, it's obviously it's not as though FIFA don't make any

money, but if you hit and include India and China, then it

becomes something else altogether.

Difficulty, Paul, of course, not that we want to stay on this too

longer, is that um the the policy making around these

expansions is um you know there is vested interest from most

federations, and it's only really UEFA that is sort of the

opposing magnetic force, but it is of course that the strongest

and most venerable uh and impactful um uh federation out

there, but we'll we'll see how how that all pans out.

Um let's get to the semi-finals, Declan, Spain against France.

How do you see it shaping up?

SPEAKER_02: I see um, I mean, France have topped their group

with a perfect nine points.

They beat Senegal, Iraq, and Norway, and they hadn't had not

now conceded in knockout rounds.

Um, so they're looking very good and they look like they can uh

go up the gears.

Spain, on the other hand, you know, they're into their first

World Cup semi-final since uh South Africa in 2010.

They didn't convincingly win their group with that great

performance by Kate Verde.

They beat Saudi Arabia, they beat Uruguay, and then they they

easily beat Austria.

Mourinho has become this knockout stage hero and with the

with the winner against Portugal and Belgium.

So I think it's gonna be a fantastically interesting game,

uh, because you could make a logical argument for either team

to um to win this game, um, from a tactical perspective and from

a historical perspective, because I know that Spain beat

France in the Euros in 2024, Spain beat France in the

nations, uh Nations League.

Um, so they've got that on their side, but anyone who who's been

watching the games during this tournament look at France and

say they are by far and away the best team.

And that's why we all love football, because it's a one-off

game tomorrow, so everything about the game uh in that

fantastic stadium in Dallas is gonna be absolutely fantastic

and fascinating.

SPEAKER_03: It um on the face of it though, you would you would

put France as the favourite.

I mean, of course, you know, uh qualifying it with the fact that

it's a one-off match, uh it's a knockout match, but um um and

Spain have been solid if unspectacular, they definitely

haven't hit the heights, but um you would say on balance that um

that France have the the um uh all of the tools in their kit

available to break down Spain potentially, Declan.

Whereas it's not entirely true, or it doesn't seem to be

entirely the case the other way around.

SPEAKER_02: No, I completely agree.

However, historically in the last 10 meetings the two

countries have had, Spain have actually won six of those games.

So I think there is almost like, and this is why the World Cup is

fantastic, is that Spain have forget about the two squads

comparing the tactical formations, blah di blah di

blah.

I actually think Spain hold like some type of psychological hold

over France based on the recent record, based on those last 10

meetings.

Um I think it will probably come down to Mbappé because Mbappe is

is carving his name out in history as one of the best

footballers the world's ever seen.

And although I'm sort of leaning slightly towards Spain, one

because I think they're an extremely good team, and in the

Euros final in 2024, they were absolutely incredible, but also

selfishly, I would like if England could get through

against Argentina for England to play Spain rather than France.

SPEAKER_03: Yeah, but that's an interesting point, isn't it?

Because you would think that um uh I mean to Spain, sorry,

France is definitely the most complete of the remaining four

four nations.

So you would you would think, and actually, yeah, I mean I I

think England does have a pretty good, we'll come to it in a

second, but a pretty good shot against Argentina, and

definitely a better shot against Spain, I think, than they would

have against uh France.

Paul, um we talked about um uh Mbappé a lot.

Um Lamin Lamal, or as Declan calls in, Yamin Lamal, uh

sometimes is that a quiet tournament, uh, which almost

seems to be ridiculous, the ridiculous thing to say, because

he's um he's not even 20 years old.

Yeah, he's about to be 20 years old.

But but if you look at the sort of the uh what we what we

perceive to be the main figures uh coming into this tournament,

of course he came in on an injury as well, then um you

would say he's um he's potentially, I'd say this kind

of um yeah, under underperformed.

His birthday, in fact, is today.

So he is 20 years old today.

No, 19 years old today.

19 years old today.

SPEAKER_02: John, who's doing your research?

He's 19 years old today.

Today we're recording this, July the 13th, and he's 19 years old.

So what whoever is feeding you this information?

SPEAKER_03: No, it's it's me.

I'm struggling to count up to 20 is the uh is the sad is the sad

realization, sad admission there.

But anyway, let's get back to the feeder.

Uh Paul, um Lamin Yamal underperformed, or are we just

uh or are our uh expectations too high?

SPEAKER_00: Um I think that um he definitely underperformed,

yes, but a big uh a big factor in that of course was his uh his

injury um shortly before the tournament started, and uh it

wasn't even clear if he would be able to uh show up for the first

match, which uh which he um yeah uh then inevitably uh if

eventually did, and there he scored his uh so far his first

goal, um, or his first and only goal in this world cup.

Um but I think that for Jamal, he is um one reason for why he

is so consistent in his in his performance and why he is so

good is his almost unshakable belief in himself.

And I think that pressure actually plays in in uh in

Yamal's favor.

Uh and there is gonna be the most pressure um on him uh so

far uh when it comes to to the national competition.

Um he of course uh there is a there is a um a sort of uh

secondary competition going on exactly between him and uh and

Mbappé.

Uh and I mean I mean it's basically a um yeah uh a

classico on World Cup stage um with the most uh high-level

players of both uh Real and Barcelona, of course, meeting on

the pitch.

Um so I think that uh that he will probably have his best

performance so far in uh in the next match, um, because that's

just uh the the conditions uh under which he performs, uh he

performs best.

And on the other side, of course, you have Mbappé, who had

probably is probably in his best shape when it comes to uh to

performing performance in uh in the uh the French uh French

national team.

He scored eight goals and three assists.

Um so he he scored half of all French goals.

Then um you have uh Bembele on the French side with five goals

and two assists, and uh Olysee, of course, being the um uh the

holding the record for for most assists with six in this World

Cup so far.

And when we when we look at both teams, I think that it's really

the best offense against the best defense, um, with France

having almost the best defense as well.

I mean Spain conceded one goal, France conceded two, um, France

scored 16 goals in total, um, versus uh the Spain's uh 11.

And um and I think that it's extremely close.

It's extremely close.

Um ultimately the the weak point here is the defense of Spain, I

think.

And uh Spain is is very very aware of that, uh I hope so at

least.

And I think that they uh will try probably um either to to try

to uh to put France uh behind on goals because that never

happened to France in this uh to in this World Cup.

So there's definitely a chance to to kind of shake up um the

French psyche there.

Um same goes, of course, for um uh for France, uh trying to

score early against um against Spain.

But most likely I see the game um actually going at least an

extra time into extra time or actually on penalties because

it's uh even for Mbappé and uh and uh Bazire uh Due and uh and

Emile, it's gonna be extremely, extremely hard and painful to uh

to effectively pierce the Spanish defense, uh which is the

best in the world right now, just to um to repeat that point.

Uh so I think that France has the slightly better chances, but

I even I am uh not making any any predictions uh further

further than that in favor of any team.

SPEAKER_03: That's very boring, Paul.

Um so we're you're gonna go after extra time and potentially

penalties, and you're not gonna go for one side or the other.

Um Declan, do you have uh do you have a little inkling of uh

which way it's gonna go?

SPEAKER_02: Um my gut tells me that France, just because they

they've gone through the tournament and haven't really

haven't they've shown signs that they can just absolutely turn it

on and blow a team away.

I think France will ultimately win it.

It could go to uh extra time, it could go to penalties.

But again, Spain have I I still think Spain have almost this a

little bit of a voodoo over France, and if they can keep

their game nice and slow and can control the tempo, particularly

as Rodri and and if Pedri plays, um you know, Rodri's getting

back to the form he showed 18 months two years ago, then Spain

do well when they have that platform to control everything,

uh, which they did against Belgium and Portugal, who are no

mugs.

But if France forced turnovers and stretched that pitch out,

their whole system is built to do that.

And Bakli and Dembele, who have both, as Paul said, scored

multiple goals, um will probably win the game.

Uh Chiumeni's fitness is very, very important to this as well.

Uh, it seems like he's a bit of a doubt.

But if if I had to put my neck on the chopping block, I'd say

it's going to be a very, very tight game.

I think it will probably go to overtime in the same way that

you know the Spain-Portugal game went right to the end.

Um, and then uh I think France will probably just pinch it

either in extra time or on penalties.

SPEAKER_03: I think you're right about the pace of the game, um,

because Spain will want to hold the ball and play it around and

control the tempo and sort of take the sting out of the

French.

But if the French can press and really harry, and presumably

this is going to be a um a tactic, something which

Deschamps Didier Deschamps sort of um pushes on the French.

And and they've definitely got that that sort of harrying

capacity.

If the French can really push um on the Spanish and force them

into playing the ball quicker and steal the ball and then sort

of start their own their own rapid moves, then I think it

could it could be a very fraught afternoon for for the Spanish.

Um I may be wrong, but I I think the French could I think the

French again have the capacity to really do a number on on

Spain.

But uh I completely agree, Declan, and I understand where

you're coming from that um that the Spanish in the recent past

have have have uh seem to have at least a handle on how that on

how the French the French play.

So that's tomorrow's World Cup semi-final and then the biggie.

John John, so therefore, what is your prediction?

Um a a straightforward France uh France win.

France to win uh without too much of a struggle, is my

prediction.

SPEAKER_02: That's really all right.

But your neck on the choppy block as well.

SPEAKER_03: Yep, there you go.

None of this uh oh after extra time thing that both of you have

done.

France uh with a sort of 2-0 win or a 3-1.

I can't even see the Spanish score.

Oh god.

SPEAKER_00: That was completely unnecessary.

SPEAKER_03: I can't even see the Spanish scoring, is a phrase

that uh I will pretend I never said.

SPEAKER_02: This has got nothing to do with your childhood being

brought up in Gibraltar and not liking Spaniards.

SPEAKER_03: My auntie, you you've expanded now my disdain

of Real Madrid to my disdain of all of Spain, which isn't

entirely inaccurate, but uh it's no, it is it is pushing things a

little bit.

Can I just come back to one point before we get on to

Argentina um England?

The signing of Anthony Gordon by Barcelona, for Barcelona by 60

odd million before the World Cup was on the face of it a really

surprising um uh signing.

But I wonder also whether um, Declan, I mean, we were talking

about uh Laminha Mal a minute ago, whether it's it's a signing

made with him in mind because increasingly, as he becomes, I

mean, he's already been for a couple of years, but he clearly

is now a sort of a centerpiece for Barcelona, in which most

sides that play Barcelona clearly focus on him.

And uh a sort of a byproduct of that is that space is generated

elsewhere.

And Anthony Gordon, definitely with his with his space, we've

seen some of that of this World Cup, has the capacity to really

exploit um these sort of rapid transfers, rapid movements of

the ball into into wide areas.

SPEAKER_02: Yes, and I I mean again, I uh I I I I can't I

don't really understand how Barcelona have justified

spending that amount of money on Anthony Gordon.

He's a very decent player.

The problem is he ha seems to have an inability to to pass or

kick with his left foot, or take anybody off.

Yeah, it's just again, my my my brother George is completely

beside himself.

He just doesn't he he originally didn't think Gordon should even

be in the squad, and forever for whatever reason Thomas Tuchel

continues to play him, Barcelona sees something in him.

I've got nothing against him at all, but there's there really

should be, as he's gone from being a Newcastle Anthony Gordon

or an Everton Anthony Gordon to a Newcastle Anthony Gordon to a

Barcelona Anthony Gordon, that you can see something absolutely

incredibly special there, and there's times where he just sort

of runs down blind alleys, there's times where he loses the

ball, there's times where he passes it when he should have

crossed it because he hasn't got the confidence and ability on

his left foot.

But when all is said and done, he's also created some great

moments for England in this World Cup.

So, you know, again, I'm still backing Thomas Tuchel that he's

looking at he's predicting and looking at games um as as

England moved through the tournament now to the

semi-finals, and he, you know, in the same way that uh Dan

Burner's come on and done a job, and uh Reese James has come on

in midfield having done nothing for two weeks.

Um I I actually had a note.

I was telling some of both of my friends today, I had a note when

I got got to bed last night thinking about the game and the

experience in Miami, that Thomas Tuchel has something else

special up his up his sleeve, and it could involve Marcus

Rashford, it could involve Ivan Tony, it could involve Mayno.

Because there's so many of the squad that are just uh I just

don't get it why they're sort of happy just to be along as

players back in the squad.

So I I'm hoping that Thomas Tuchel has just got this, he's

mapped everything out, they've done the analysis and they

predicted this, this, and this as you get into the final, and

that someone will become like a master playing cards in a game

like the massive game against Argentina, which is going to be

a very close tight game.

But Ansi Gordon, again, there's a lot of people scratching their

heads right now.

SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it was it was curious the other day when um in

the match against Norway when Reese James came on, and I fully

expected, as I think, probably 99.9% of others uh expected for

him to go into the right back slot.

But when he came into sort of central midfield as one of two

holding midfielders, that was kind of unusual, not just

because I mean and he had a blinder, right?

You you pointed this out, Dexton.

He had an incredible game, so I'm not criticizing that at all,

but it's something which just was not on the cards at all.

And I and I would have thought, going back to what you're saying

about Kobe Mayne, that um that that would have been uh a uh a

role for him to come into in that in that game against uh the

Norwegians.

But um, yeah, surprising decision by by Thomas Tuchel.

The um I mean you've you've brought us nicely to how England

are going to play against Argentina because we've, I

think, seen basically the same England's setup to some extent,

Paul, throughout the tournament, which is um to try and sort of

be uh solid and compact, but also uh this uh this short,

short, long thing that we keep hearing Thomas Duchel shout at

the players to sort of try and draw uh defenders out and then

move the balls, move the ball rapidly towards the uh the wing.

And of course, he's got these um he's got a number of wingers

that are interchangeable there from uh Sarka at uh uh

Bukayosaka to Marcus Rashford to Anthony Gordon, of course, and

uh Maduki is as well.

So we know that that's the sort of likely setup, almost certain

setup for the English, and we know equally that the Argentines

are going to play much more through the through the center

and are gonna sort of find Messi and then see what what magic he

can um he can inspire from from there.

Can you see any variations on that, or is that is that your

expectation as well, Paul?

SPEAKER_00: No, I think that's absolutely uh absolutely the

case as you as you just explained it.

I mean, the the strength uh of both teams in the end when it

comes to to actually winning matches is messy on the

Argentina uh Argentinian side.

Um and on the English side, you have Harry Kane and uh and Jude

Bellingham.

And I think this is going to be a game of uh of isolation.

I think both teams will um will put great emphasis on containing

um I mean, yeah, uh all these uh the these three players um if

they are on the pitch, which is very much uh to be expected, of

course.

And I really believe that this is one of the, if not the most

important factor um for who is eventually going through to the

final.

And I mean in the last game, uh in Argentina's last game against

Switzerland, uh Switzerland, I would say, actually did a great

job at um um at uh yeah sort of isolating Messi and uh uh taking

any space from him which he could use to do his uh to do his

magic.

And uh yeah, that that's gonna be the uh one of the most

important factors for me um for this game.

Um and as you spoke, Declan, about Thomas Tuchel, um also

from uh from a German perspective, um having had uh

very great the greatest difficulties of uh of decades

with with uh my uh or our national team coach can you give

us a quick overview of how your uh perception and opinions on

Thomas Tuchel evolved over the time um in this tournament so

far?

SPEAKER_02: When the FA hired him, the it was a little bit

controversial because unfortunately there's still this

little England mentality uh where you know you have to have

an English coach, you can't have a an international coach.

And we've been down that road before with Capello and Sven.

Uh personally, I I had no problem with Capello because I

want England to win the World Cup whilst I'm alive.

So I had no problem with that.

He comes across as being uh a sort of straight shooter, he

comes across based on his CV and resume as as being able to talk

the talk but walk the walk.

I like the fact that you know he got into that controversial

discussion with the ITV reporter and then Jude Bellingham, you

know, right in the heat of after the game, responded not

necessarily the way you would the P the FAPA people would like

them to do so.

Um he seems to be uh again a real anglophile, he's adopted uh

England.

I'm pretty sure he he he lives there full time, and ultimately

he'll go back and probably have another job in the Premier

League.

Um so I'm completely happy with him, and I'm completely happy

with the way this tournament has gone so far.

But at the end of the day, he's gonna be judged.

The the Norway game was a massive game.

If he had lost that game to Norway, he would be deemed a

failure and his career would be in uh downward spiral.

This is a magnificent, massive game based on the fact England

and Argentina haven't played a proper serious game since uh the

far as far as I remember, 2002 in uh that game in Sapporo.

2005, there was a friendly, but there was a friendly, that

wasn't a serious game, John.

The last time, and then also Messi Messi hasn't ever played

against England, he's played again he's played against

English teams multiple times, but he's never played against

England, and then you throw in um the hand of God, you throw in

the the uh Malvinas, the Falklands, and all that sort of

stuff.

Um it's got all of the ingredients to be an absolutely

sensational game, and then on top of that, if for whatever

reason England just shade it and Argentina lose, then this is

Messi's last ever World Cup game.

I don't see him coming back again in four years.

So there's so many fantastic, incredible ingredients to this

game, but I'm I'm still backing Thomas Tuchel, and um, although

the bookies have got it, you know, it could go either way,

very slim margins.

I think Thomas Tuchel has got a he can pull a rabbit out of his

hat, he's got something up his sleeve, which is why I made that

note to myself, because at my age, if I think things, if I

don't write them down, a bit like Elton John, I forget them.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah, sorry, just just to follow up, um, because I

think that um, of course, he's a he's a great coach, Thomas

Tuchel, on a on a on technical level.

Um, but he is, I mean, this is the third semifinal since 1966

uh that England is actually in.

We shouldn't forget that, right?

So I would say that Thomas Duchel is already um hugely uh

accomplished um in uh in regards to to the English national team.

And I think that what what England's biggest weakness

always was um on aggregate, at least, is that they don't

eventually don't believe that they can win, that they're some

somehow doomed.

And I think that that Thomas Tuchel was able to somehow um

overcome this this English mental illness and and telling

everybody and showing everybody that no, you actually can win

against anybody, and uh and I think that's what's been the the

edge about.

SPEAKER_02: But I also I also think Paul two to two uh

comments on that.

One, he is not English, so when all is said and done, he doesn't

feel that pressure.

He's a he's effectively a mercenary who's coming in, a

very well-paid mercenary, and he doesn't have the the the med the

mental baggage of I'm English and I'm I've got to you know get

through to the final and then win the trophy, etc.

etc.

So that's to his advantage, and he's playing an absolute blinder

there.

I also think there's quite a few members of the squad who felt

the pain of losing to Croatia in 2018 in Russia, who lost in a

game in the Euros final against Italy, which they should have

won, uh, who also lost against Spain quite convincingly in the

um Olympic Stadium in Berlin in 2024.

So that has a that has a merit to it that the core members, the

experienced members of this team, and I'm talking

particularly about uh John Stones, um Harry Kane, um Jordan

Pickford, they are gonna carry that scar, that mental scar

through that's gonna be a uh an extra thing that's gonna help

them push on, hopefully through Argentina on Wednesday.

SPEAKER_03: Yeah, this is the flip side of what you've just

said, Paul, is that I think that um England have now reached at

least the semi-finals in four of their last five major

appearances.

And they've got, I mean, it might not seem it in this

particular squad, but they've got some of the best players in

the world in in at their at their disposal.

So the other way of looking at it is that this is the kind of

the minimum of what they should be they should be achieving, and

that they've been doing it now for for a number of tournaments.

Now, of course, winning one of these tournaments is very, very

difficult, and there's often as much luck uh as judgment in

involved.

But um, I think that the the change in mentality with this

squad is they clearly now believe that they should be in

the latter stages of the tournament, whether they end up

whether they believe that they can be winners or not is is

another is another question.

Can I just ask you um for a quick prediction and then I want

to just talk about the coaches uh briefly.

Declan, what's your what's your prediction ahead of um the

Argentina England game on Wednesday?

SPEAKER_02: Um like I've said on the recent couple of podcasts, I

think the um both teams are going to be mentally and

physically not at their top levels.

I think it's a massive advantage for both teams that at least

they can go out there in an air conditioned stadium in Atlanta

and and and play.

I mean, Scellini's system tight tends to sort of Squeeze the

life out of um the opponents in the middle of the field.

Obviously, Messi has a free rule to do whatever he wants to do.

But I think talking about Anthony Gordon, Saka, no Noni

Maduweki has got absolutely slaughtered after the game in in

Miami.

Um that you know maybe someone like Rashford could start the

game or impact the game because it's really weird and bizarre

that he hasn't been playing in the last couple of games.

Um so when all is said and done, I think it's gonna be a very

tight game.

But if if if Thomas Tuchel plays into Scalini's system and tries

to do all this fancy touchy-touchy tappy-tappy stuff

in midfield, that's gonna be a major detriment to England.

If England can somehow exploit the wide areas, get behind the

Argentine defence, the Argentinian defence, which I'm

not overly impressed with.

I don't think Romario and Martinez are the best defenders

in the world.

I don't think this the uh fullbacks are particularly good.

That if they can get on behind, if if our boy Anthony Gordon has

a good game, can actually cross the ball and get the ball into

dangerous areas, then you've got two players who are on

unbelievable form at the moment with Harry Kane and Jude

Bellingham, who could who could um you know to turn the game and

it could easily go England's way that way.

But conversely, I also feel that Argentina, the fans are gonna be

incredible, they have the um the ability to eke out wins.

Messi is gonna be, in my opinion, he's he's gonna be

quieter than normal, like he was in the game the other day

against Switzerland, but he's still out there.

I just think he's gonna be he his energy levels are gonna be

low.

So when all is said and done, I think it it it could go quite

easily England's way, but I could also see it being a tight

game and then again going to penalties after um you know a

very exciting extra time.

So I think Eagler will just shade it.

The atmosphere is gonna be incredible.

I do worry about a level of uh trouble in and around the

stadium before the game, during the stadium, after the game,

because the FIFA cannot control the sale of tickets.

So you there's gonna be no segregation of fans at all, and

there's gonna be there's gonna be a lot of idiots on both sides

who are gonna be creating issues.

Um but when all of a sudden um uh although it's gonna be a

tight game, I I think England will just shade it.

SPEAKER_03: Paul, your prediction in to try and be

briefer than Declan was.

SPEAKER_00: Yes, I will be.

Um, I think based on past performances, I definitely see

England go through.

Also, not necessarily uh in in extra time.

I think England can definitely manage to um overwhelm the not

so strong Argentinian defense.

I think that that's of course the biggest weak point uh of

Argentina um there.

And um on I mean England did a very good job, um, even though

Haaland definitely was not in his best shape um in last game.

Um but they definitely did a good job at um at containing

him, and if they do the same to Messi, then Argentina will will

struggle a lot.

And um also I think that on um in regards to dynamics, I think

that England actually has gotten um better and better.

Uh there's still lots of room to for improvement, but I think

Argentina has been just struggling, struggling the last

three games constantly and got lucky in every game.

And um and I just see a more consistent uh improvement on uh

on the English side, while I don't see any improvement on the

Argentinian side.

Um more more um yeah, more more of uh just being just being

lucky.

So my uh my prediction is England will will win.

And I'm I even tend to say quite quite decisively because they

Argentina won the last World Cup.

They are definitely hungry for another one, but England is just

they now have have the chance again, and uh they don't want to

um want to let that chance uh just go like this against an

Argentina, which you don't, as an England, have to be afraid

of.

SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's it's an opportunity to sort of

restructure, I guess, um footballing history and memory.

This um it I think you're right.

If if England can this it's a big if, but if England didn't

shut down Messi, then then I think they could run out pretty

convincing winners.

But of course, if Messi does his thing, then it's very difficult

to um I mean he is at his very best.

Irresistible.

Um Declan Paul, uh, without too much chat or discussion, I'm

gonna give you the four coaches Leo Scaloni, Luis de la Fuente,

Leo Scaloni, of course, Argentina, Luis de la Fuente,

Spain, Thomas Tuchel, um England, and Didier Deschamps,

France.

Can you place them in order of uh of skill and magnitude?

Last first, going up to the individual that you consider the

best coach of the four, Paul, starting with you.

SPEAKER_00: All right.

Um I would put uh Deschamps, I would put them uh put him first.

Um then I would put John.

SPEAKER_03: I thought you said in reverse order.

I did, but uh Paul's being uh obtuse, but never mind.

Can you carry on Paul?

SPEAKER_00: Sorry.

Um, yeah, of course.

That's uh I okay.

SPEAKER_03: I was gonna say Deschamps last.

That's controversial.

SPEAKER_00: So other way around rank four, Tuchel, three, Louis

de la Fuente.

Um I'm I'm a little bit uh uh two for a tire for on Scaloni

and De la Fuente.

Um Deschamps tops everything, and uh that should be should be

enough.

I don't have to um because it's very very hard.

I would put maybe De La Fuente on two and Scaloni on three.

SPEAKER_03: Okay, so Thomas Tuchel fourth, um Scaloni third,

De la Fuente second, he said, and Didia Deschon first.

Declan.

SPEAKER_00: Yes.

SPEAKER_02: Uh I would based on accomplishments uh on the on the

global international stage, I'd definitely put Thomas Tuchel uh

fourth.

Uh however, this time next week he'll be up there first or

second.

Um I would do uh Sculonia Fuentes joint second uh because

one of them's won the last Euros and one of them's won the last

World Cup, and Didier Deschamp, just because of his CV and his

accomplishments and the fact he's brought together such an

incredible French team.

So there you go.

SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it?

Is it um I mean because they're all such different coaches as

well, is one of the reasons I'm asking this this question.

I mean, um they the they're all different varieties of of

coaches, if if you like.

And um I think coming into the semifinals and then the finals,

that's quite that's going to be an interesting talking point,

which we can break down further as we review the the matches as

well, because this is also a particular point at which I

think when um we've seen it happen a little bit in some

matches up until now, but it's also this is the point at which

coaches really earn their their money, their wages, uh, in in

terms of sort of thinking on the spot when things don't quite pan

out and changes need to be uh need to be made.

And um uh I mean to some extent Scaloni, I mean, he's he's

incredible, but he's also not really that present as an

Argentine coach.

Argentina seems to sort of run themselves, I think, uh a little

bit.

And the other end of that is um the omnipresence of Didier

Deschamps, who is who sort of, even though if he doesn't do

anything, he seems to be front and centre of the uh the French

side.

But we we shall see.

Any final uh comments, uh slash interruptions, slash epiphanies

from either of you before we uh just uh John make it make it a

rhetorical question.

SPEAKER_02: What is your rankings from four to one?

SPEAKER_03: Um I would also put Thomas Tuchel forth.

I think um I England have done well.

Uh they've done incredibly well, I think, to get to the

semi-final, given their performances.

Um and I just don't see that Thomas Tuchel has really

significantly sort of changed much during the matches,

although I would grant that the one time that the maybe the two

times that we saw that were in the second half against Croatia

with these attacking substitutions, which we haven't

seen since, and then this um this really unusual reordering

of in particular the midfield against um against Norway, which

to some extent was sort of foisted on him by the illness

and the injury to Declan Rice.

And that's of course that's a big question ahead of the

semi-finals as well, which we haven't touched on.

So Thomas Tuco fourth, I would put Luis de la Fuente third.

I've not got, even though he is uh he's a successful coach, I've

not got that much time for him as an individual in terms of

what he brings to uh to Spain.

I would put Scaloni second and um and Didier Deschamp in in

top.

So I think we we pretty much all three of us agree with more or

less the order of those.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah, surprising, surprising.

But now uh I also of course have one uh interruption, although

it's not an interruption this time.

Just um for us to realize um or that that we really live through

historical football times, especially in terms um of uh of

England and Argentina as well, um, because um after last uh or

with with last uh with the last game, Bellingham is the first

player since Diego Maradona in 1986 to score two goals in two

consecutive knockout matches, and that as a midfielder, isn't

that something?

SPEAKER_03: Yeah, he's he's on fire, isn't he?

Um it's um it's a sort of and to think that uh Thomas Tuchel was

sort of toying with not including him in the in the

squad, uh Jacqueline.

SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and going back to the Croatia game in in

Dallas, uh the first half performance where we all agreed

that there was some teacups thrown around that Thomas Tuchel

laid it on the line to the team, but particularly to Bellingham,

because he had that real matrix mentality that he would fall

over and flop and try and get uh free kicks, and everyone was

turning around laughing at him.

The halftime conversation there uh you know, again, has has

helped spur Bellingham on to have an incredible tournament.

Hopefully, this isn't the peak of the tournament.

Um, and and again, I still think Thomas Ducal's man management

skills are up there in A plus land.

So it's again plenty of talking points.

That game against Croatia was a turning point for Bellingham.

And I again I d I just don't see that he's gonna stop, you know.

Compare Bellingham to an old Messi now.

Um you know, Messi Messi is not gonna be able to compete.

The two number tens are not gonna be able to compete with

each other because sadly Messi is gonna be uh light on fuel and

Bellingham is gonna be going at 110%.

So let's see what happens.

SPEAKER_03: Yeah, absolutely.

Uh let's uh tomorrow it's Spain against France, and then on

Wednesday, England against Argentina too.

Absolutely cracking, we hope, semi-finals, and uh look forward

to to debriefing on France Spain at around this time uh tomorrow.

Thank you, Paul.

Thank you, Declan.

SPEAKER_00: Absolute pleasure, as always.

SPEAKER_02: My absolute pleasure as always, John.

Thank you, Paul.

Thank you, John.