October 22, 2012: Part 1

In this interview, Keyes discusses publicity and strategy, the impacts of his crimes on his family, searching for remains, the NY victim, lies he's told about his time in Texas, and serial killers he's read about and studied.

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Speaker 1: Hey everyone, Well, True Crime Bullshit is on hiatus. We'll

be popping in sporadically to share with you some of

Keys's FBI interviews, some names, forty five episodes, and some

bonus content. True Crime Bullshit will be back with season

eight on October fifth, and today I'm sharing with you

Keys's October twenty second FBI interview. We'll be back on

Thursday with the second part of this interview. Stay tuned

after this episode to find out where we're going on

our next Trova trip this November. This is a studio

both and production.

Speaker 2: It's it's Officer Bell ABDM going on tape. It is

eight to forty seven by my watch. On the twenty

second October interview with Israel Keys preamble in the room

JMB essay, Joline Golden, that you would, says Frank Russo

and Kevin Philbas.

Speaker 3: Yeah, looking stoopie sometimes just from in jail. It just

so would be kind of like there in these days

you could say that, all right, well today you're.

Speaker 4: Gonna spice it up for us, right.

Speaker 5: Yeah, alright?

Speaker 4: Make any kind of day? Should we call it an

interesting day or a boring day?

Speaker 5: What do you think? Oh?

Speaker 3: All right, Well, let's do the uh, let's do the

usual eye me all right, you have a right for

mean style and you understand that yep, anything you say

kenan will be used against.

Speaker 4: You in the cornlog.

Speaker 5: Understanding that yep, you.

Speaker 2: Have a right to talk to a lawyer and have

him present with you while you're being question You understand that, yeah,

if you cannot afford to hile or one will be

a point to represent you before and during any questions

if you wish.

Speaker 5: You understand that, yes, you can.

Speaker 6: Decide anytime to exercise these rights.

Speaker 4: And not answer any questions or make any statements.

Speaker 2: You understand that, yes, And we are here only to

talk about uh other crimes when I'm here to talk

about Samantha only you have stand by council uh at

least Rich Gerdner, Jackie Welch and Mark. Would you like

any of those present.

Speaker 5: With you today?

Speaker 7: No?

Speaker 8: Okay?

Speaker 5: Alright? UH is real.

Speaker 4: As you know, the court also said at any time

you want.

Speaker 3: Uh stand by council present, right, just let us know, okay, Right,

And for any reason you'd want the court to appoint

a different attorney to represent you, you let us know

that as well. Right, alright, we're gonna brought you over

here to talk to you about uh other crimes things

separate from the Samantha Cony investigation. You understand that, yes, alright,

well I think that covers the uh the introductions and

and the warnings. Is there anything that you've wanted to

ask about those before you started?

Speaker 8: Uh?

Speaker 5: No, okay, good.

Speaker 4: Well, these guys told me they talked to you a

couple of weeks ago.

Speaker 8: Was it?

Speaker 5: What about and the stig?

Speaker 4: Yeah?

Speaker 5: So yeah, su last time they got together, and uh,

I know.

Speaker 3: There's a couple of things that they wanted to updated

on at some point today. But uh, when when we

met last when they met with you last time, they

came back and told 'em told uh, Frank and I

about a couple of things just that.

Speaker 5: You were thinking about.

Speaker 3: We're right, So help me remember what some of the

the questions were.

Speaker 8: Uh.

Speaker 3: One of 'em was, you know, getting involved a little

bit and and not being shut out when if you

give us information, not being shut out from that right

and kind of being right being involved in And uh

my reaction to that was that that's not a problem. Okay, Yeah,

basically that can be done. And I think these guys

have also checked that out with your bosses.

Speaker 2: Yeah, we did.

Speaker 8: I talked to our We've were called tech agents and

those are the guys that do all the techi kind

of stuff. Yeah, exactly, and uh, basically what they are

working on and U currently working on so that when

we get to a point when we can do this,

it's you know, it can be ready to go, and

it can be ready to.

Speaker 6: Go pretty quickly.

Speaker 5: Right twofold.

Speaker 8: So we have talked about the piece about having you

help us find places, because that in and of itself

is gonna be potentially pretty difficult to do in some situations.

Speaker 5: So having.

Speaker 9: A live feed with a camera at a location, so

if you tell.

Speaker 8: It, we look at Google Maps and you say, you know,

I think it's in this area, we can send folks

out there with a camera with a live feed that

we can see back here on the camera. With that,

that camera will also have a GPS on it, so

you're gonna be able to see.

Speaker 9: You'll essentially have two screens.

Speaker 8: You can see Google Maps overhead to see like if

we're along a river or if we're next what wherever

we're at, you can see overhead where they are, so

you can look at landmarks as well as actually seeing

what the live feed is as they're walking and you

can say no, go right, go left over everything. One

of the things that the t that's the thing that

the tech guy is working on. And it'll depend all

the tech stuff that he's doing, depending on the more

remote the area it is, depends on how it happens,

whether it happens be a satellite or whether it happens

using the cell towers or something like that.

Speaker 9: So he's working things.

Speaker 2: He said was that's important when we get to this

point to locations of whether we're going to be able

to use sidellite or whether it's gonna be reception only

or if there's a selver reception even where it's at.

Speaker 9: So he's working on both.

Speaker 8: And they're I mean, they'll be ready to go okay

whenever when we get to that point.

Speaker 9: The questions about.

Speaker 8: That that's kind of what we were talking about in

terms of the live feed, and then you know, we

had talked about also expanding beyond that once we're actually.

Speaker 9: Doing some of the things right digging or whatever, and

that's something that.

Speaker 5: We can also do.

Speaker 8: You know, we can I don't know realistically live feed

is going to be difficult because those tech those happen

over eighteen hours kind of a thing. So you'll be

sitting here for a long time. So we can work

that piece out in terms of the video piece.

Speaker 4: But so what do you.

Speaker 5: Think of that sounds good?

Speaker 3: Alright, so we'll we'll ask them to continue to roll

with that and uh, and my reaction was, let's make

it happen.

Speaker 5: You know we can do that, right, Yeah.

Speaker 7: The only the only issue being, I mean, that's great,

That's a given.

Speaker 5: At this point. I'm gonna expect that for any information

that I give you because essentially, regardless of whether I

give you the.

Speaker 7: Information, I and I get to be a part of

see what happened with the investigation now or later, I'm

still entitled to that. But uh, the issue right now is, uh,

what else I can use this information for as far

as my situation my current situation. And that's the tricky

part because you know, all this stuff takes a lot

more time.

Speaker 5: Anticipating.

Speaker 3: So well, what we're and what I've told you for

months and months is you know, we can make these

other things can move quickly, and you know, we've we've

gotten better at what we're doing since we first started

talking to you, right, And the FBI has gotten much

more geared up than we were in the summer. They've got,

as we said, they've got a whole team of people

ready to.

Speaker 4: Roll on things, that follow up on things.

Speaker 3: And they're doing that anyway, but if you can speed

that along, right, So, timing has always been one of

your concerns that we've been keeping in mind, and we

can move a lot more quickly than you think, But

that's up to you.

Speaker 4: And I've told you that before.

Speaker 3: If we don't, you know, if we meet every two months,

it's gonna go solely. If we need every week, it's

gonna go fas. Yes, so we're we're we're doing better

than we did, and we'll will admit that we were

slower than we wanted.

Speaker 5: To be in the beginning, but that we know that

we're so. So what's your reaction to that? Like I said,

my biggest concern right now is with UH current ongoing issues.

It's not with any of these UH potential issues.

Speaker 7: You can did I guess you could say I've become

somewhat disenchanted with this whole process. And even though you know,

I think it's inevitable that we resolve all the issues

that I can. I'm a little more hesitant now than

I was in the beginning to talk about things because

I didn't have I I feel like I talked about

some things without thinking through possible outcomes that that information could.

Speaker 5: Be used for, and just being.

Speaker 7: Well overwhelmed at the time with the whole situation from

my end, not really overwhelmed anymore, kind of.

Speaker 5: Settled into the good life or jail, you know, so.

Speaker 3: I'm not too boring for you, like mandatory boredom.

Speaker 4: Well, that that's one area where we we might be

able to help you with.

Speaker 5: Is this right?

Speaker 3: Is we move along with some of these things at least, uh,

we're all working on something.

Speaker 5: Yeah, I don't know, but that I'm still concerned about

the long term.

Speaker 4: From my perspective, what's you're concerned to know?

Speaker 5: What you're concerned is, Uh? My concern is it's it's

two full. Really, there's there's two different ways it can go.

Speaker 7: I can go for for maximum publicity with with.

Speaker 5: Uh the information that I have, or I can go

try and go for minimum publicity.

Speaker 7: And I'm including you know, all the issues in that statement.

Speaker 5: My issue right now is I don't know which way

it's gonna go.

Speaker 7: You know, there's there's a there's a aspect of this.

Speaker 5: To where I would prefer to keep it all minimum publicity.

Speaker 7: But to a certain extent, it's already too late to

do that.

Speaker 5: Granted, lately there hasn't been.

Speaker 7: Much publicity, which has been good. It's given me some

time to consider that option. But that being said, you know,

not all these issues are resolved yet, so I.

Speaker 5: Don't know how much publicity there's going to be. So

so it's, uh, it would be premature for me to.

Speaker 7: Uh give out any more information with the hope of

keeping a minimum publicity if in the end result.

Speaker 5: There's gonna be certain other issues that come out anyway.

Sounds like you're undecided about this.

Speaker 4: I am, just because of a a.

Speaker 5: Personal conflict I have with the you know, from my

own personal perspective.

Speaker 10: I don't I don't mind the publicity, but uh, you

know there's other factors involved too, and concerned about, right,

any anyone other than her that you're.

Speaker 7: Concerned about, Not as much anymore, but yeah, there's there

are some peripheral concerns.

Speaker 5: You know, that's uh what.

Speaker 4: About your family?

Speaker 5: Mean?

Speaker 3: They pretty much know what's going on means that it's

gonna come as a shock to them, or do they

already kind of know that.

Speaker 5: I don't know. I initially.

Speaker 7: I was thinking, being in their position, they're gonna even

as technologically backwards as some portions of my family aren't,

eventually they would come to terms with the reality of

meaning in this situation I'm in, and they would seek

out that information for themselves and kind of draw their

own conclusions. Even though the press releases have been limited,

there's still enough information in them to deduct and draw

some conclusions that, uh, you know, the stuff didn't come

out of thin air kind of thing.

Speaker 4: So that's another issue that's that I have right now, is.

Speaker 5: Because I don't know, I know some of them.

Speaker 7: Are, uh when certain people have known me are still

definitely and would deny all about the whole thing, and you.

Speaker 5: Try to sit them straight about your.

Speaker 4: Well that's the life.

Speaker 7: That's the issue that's uh confusion I have right now

because uh, I've never told any of them since this

whole thing started, it all one innocent If I haven't.

Speaker 5: Come out and said, oh I you know I did

this and this.

Speaker 7: I I've mostly kept my statements about the whole situation

very vague under the guise of well, I can't say anything,

but at the same time, you know, like kind of

draw your own conclusions.

Speaker 5: Sort of thing.

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Speaker 4: Well, when it comes to.

Speaker 3: These other criminal activity, obviously we know about the career yers,

and we know you know, we know a lot of things.

Is there something that we can do to facilitate you

communicating with your family or I mean either a I

if that's important to you for them to know before

it hits the papers.

Speaker 7: There there may come a time shortly when, uh, when

I have to make a decision on which route I'm

gonna go, whether I go for maximum publicity or minimum publicity.

And of course, if I come to the conclusion that

I'm going for maximum publicity, then I'm gonna tell them

about it.

Speaker 5: First ranch, in which case there are possibly some.

Speaker 4: Things that could be done to arrange that facilitated.

Speaker 3: Right, What would cause you to go to the maximum

publicity route.

Speaker 7: If I were to come to the realization that, uh, well, for.

Speaker 4: For a couple different things.

Speaker 7: For one, if I was to come to the realization

that minimum publicity wasn't.

Speaker 5: Gonna be an option.

Speaker 7: Uh, I think you all know me well enough to

know that I'm not as far as me personally, and

I'm not that conflicted about the whole situation.

Speaker 4: Right.

Speaker 7: Therefore, all it remains in my mind from my perspective,

is to see which way it plays out.

Speaker 4: Yeah, I know, that's an interesting question.

Speaker 3: I mean, think, uh, were a men of us, all

of us know all that they can always left the

farmer and you know I long ago, right, you know

that the right so extent no matter what any of

us you know already it's already out there, you know,

So there is that consideration.

Speaker 5: Obviously, we've.

Speaker 3: You know, offered to do things in certain ways to

to limit with us in it.

Speaker 5: Think in a large extent.

Speaker 4: We've been pretty successful about that. But but uh, a

lot of some of this is out of ourket role.

Speaker 5: Right, And I understand that now.

Speaker 7: I was Uh that's the biggest issue that I was

naive on initially, is uh what the options were for uh,

for limiting the amount of information that gets out. I'm

gonna I'm a little more a little better informed at

this point as to what's ultimately gonna be known by

the general public.

Speaker 5: So and I'm.

Speaker 7: Also you know, I'm a little more adapted to my

current living situation is so become a little more realistic

about well, this is the way it's gonna be, then

I should I'm.

Speaker 4: The one in jail, so I should use whatever I have.

Speaker 11: To benefit my own situation and cause the bottom line

is now that I'm in jail, everybody on the outside,

regardless of how traumatic this may.

Speaker 5: Be for them, uh, it's essentially over. Well, w I

mean know you don't.

Speaker 4: I mean you've told us that this is not a

concern of yours, But it's not over for.

Speaker 5: A whole bunch of other I'm just saying far as

physical threat is concerned, it's right, it's over. The damage

is done.

Speaker 4: Whatever damage is done, it's already done.

Speaker 12: So how does it impact your cooperation on other crimes,

whether it's you decide maximum publicity or minimal adversity. I

mean I if it was maximum publicity, had would you

know you proceed in continuing to give us information and

as opposed to if it was minimum publicity.

Speaker 5: So we can understand that.

Speaker 4: Well, that hinges on.

Speaker 7: Another issue for me, uh, which is essentially how long

am I willing to sit in jail? You know, regardless

of how much entertainment value I get out of any

of this, My perspective on sitting in jail.

Speaker 5: And definitely hasn't really changed. It's uh guess you could

say I haven't to have discovered a new clique of

friends in jail.

Speaker 7: You don't respect that I will anytimes sing, So I

don't really see.

Speaker 3: A long term interest and survival living there.

Speaker 5: That means that I'm you know, I'm more realistic.

Speaker 7: About situation being that it is, uh, well.

Speaker 11: They they watch me like a hawk.

Speaker 7: They're gonna keep me, you know, s my own sept

cell and definitely probably so.

Speaker 8: You know.

Speaker 5: That's uh hinges directly on.

Speaker 7: The realization that if I'm gonna be in this situation,

then I should use you know, what information I have

as entertainment for me. That's that's where the maximum publicity issues.

Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean you know that for rocess is obviously

not entertainment, and you have no interest in entertainment.

Speaker 4: I I don't I say that.

Speaker 3: I understand that you you expressed before and today that

you're just sitting in jail.

Speaker 5: For you, it's there's nothing to that, there's no entertainment.

Speaker 3: But if you wanna, if you wanna be involved in something,

meaning helping us move forward on one or more.

Speaker 4: Of these right investigations we want, we're willing to offer

you that.

Speaker 3: And that's as usual and unprecedented and all that, and

we're willing to do that as.

Speaker 5: A as a compromise.

Speaker 3: You know, obviously you know there's limits, but.

Speaker 5: But we can do that.

Speaker 7: Well, I'm right, I yeah, there are certain aspects of

any investigations from this point that I would be interested.

I I don't wanna. I don't wanna sit in jail

way to be charged with them. I'd rather if I'm

going to give the information, i'd rather. Uh, it's not

like I don't know what happened. It's not like there's

any mystery in it for me. But at the same time,

it's interesting to me because it's, uh, all these things,

once I've done them, they become.

Speaker 4: You know, that's it.

Speaker 5: It's like the taboo. That's the end of it.

Speaker 7: It's not like I get to go back and.

Speaker 5: You know whatever I have residual from those.

Speaker 7: Those things that happen, things that I did, they're all

in my head, so you know. And as far as

being unprecedented, it's that's not really true either, because the

reality is unless I'm fairly closely involved, I'm not even

going to be able.

Speaker 5: To find.

Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean I'm impressed that would be you.

Speaker 3: Know, it's just show any video das and things like that,

how we would be doing.

Speaker 5: It that that doesn't happen. Yeah, I can see that.

Speaker 7: But at the same time, you know, like I say,

eventually I would get to see those things anyway, if

this were to play.

Speaker 3: Out, if I mean, if you get if you get

charged with with an individual crime, eventually you know. But yeah,

as far as I understood it, you have no interest

in being charge with all these crimes.

Speaker 7: And so that's not to say that I I'm just

saying it it's depending on the way I give you

the information. I could make it so that you would

force you. I could force you to charge me for

each individual one. I can give you enough information to

get me, but not forget me. So you know that

what we're talking about is, you know, essentially the same

side of the same coin, different sides of the same

coins still anyway, and we didn't. I understand what you're saying,

and I appreciate the fact that you're willing to work

with me, But at the same time, you have to

see it from my.

Speaker 4: Perspective, where yeah, I I know what I.

Speaker 7: Could say, especially with twenty twenty hind sight at this point,

to get to get that, you know, But my concern is.

Speaker 5: With the other issues right now?

Speaker 4: What what other issues?

Speaker 3: Well, the current crimes that I'm charge because well, I

mean it's as weird as.

Speaker 4: It sounds, and it does sound weird to us.

Speaker 5: I mean we are trying to see it from your perspective,

and in approaching you with this and saying, you know

that we could do these things and work together.

Speaker 7: On them, Yeah, well I know, and I understand you

know the reason.

Speaker 5: I understand from your perspective, Do you want to you know,

this was all wrapped up neatly with the ball on

and make your lives a lot easier. Well, but you know,

I would say, I'm sorry, but I'm not really that

nice of the guys.

Speaker 2: But we always ask you one thing, one thing in

terms of timing.

Speaker 8: Just to keep this in mind, is your whatever you decide,

however you decide, this is going to play out in

the end. The piece about you being part of it

and us going out and doing what we have to do.

Speaker 9: You give us information, we go.

Speaker 8: Out, we look for bodies or whatever, however many we

end up looking for, however much information you give us.

We have the benefit of having people all over the place,

so the timing piece is somewhat obviously it's totally up

to you with that, but we have the benefit of

having people all over the place so things can be

happening at the same time. It's not like, you know,

we have to do it's just going to be the

same team going to dislocation. You got to wait till

they're done, and then they're going to fly to here

and then they're going to fly to there.

Speaker 9: That So just keep that in mind you're thinking about timing.

Speaker 8: Or is that it can happen quickly if you want

it to happen quickly.

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Speaker 5: So what are you thinking about that? Oh, I feel

like I've pretty much laid out my current perspective at

this point. Yeah, I don't I don't know. I don't know.

I guess.

Speaker 7: Yeah, there's just a lot of information I've got recently

that that I should have expected. I should have seen

it coming. I know enough about bureaucracy and and different aspects,

not specifically this aspect of the federal government, but other aspects.

Speaker 5: I should have known that. I wasn't on and be

all smooth sailing, matter speaking, but.

Speaker 4: I didn't expect. There are some things that.

Speaker 7: I didn't anticipate, you know, that that we're slowing things

down or that could potentially slow things down and complicate

matters and.

Speaker 4: And yeah, so that's that's what.

Speaker 7: I'm trying to come to terms with now.

Speaker 5: As far as basically what what I'm.

Speaker 4: Talking about is timelines. How much of a.

Speaker 3: Timeline am I willing to deal with a lot of

that's up to you. Right, we sat here with Flip

charts months and months ago. We'll bring him back.

Speaker 5: There.

Speaker 4: They're pretty good enough.

Speaker 5: We were we were, we were room.

Speaker 4: This is what Israel wanted, this is what we were

given Israel.

Speaker 5: And and you know we've gotten We've.

Speaker 4: Got right now, we've gotten where. Well it was that

easy to go through months and months with a float chart.

Speaker 3: Well, but I could get out the notes of where

I said, you know, we got planing and plan B,

you know Plan A.

Speaker 5: It's basically you know, we're.

Speaker 3: We've been just sitting here, yeah, twiddling our thumbs for

months now, and said about.

Speaker 5: They're moving forward.

Speaker 7: I don't think I know that nothing's happened recently, but

I don't really feel like we're twiddling our thumbs anymore

because I think that we have an understanding.

Speaker 5: I think you know enough about me.

Speaker 7: Now to know where I'm coming from on all these issues.

And even though, like I said in the beginning, I

reacted pretty unpredictably for me, out of character for me,

it was because of situations that.

Speaker 5: I felt we're spinning out of control.

Speaker 4: And my whole issue with this is to keep control

of it.

Speaker 7: If if you let me, to an extent keep control

of the situation, then you're gonna get what you want essentially,

and you know, whether or not I get what I

want is is not really so much the issue anymore.

Speaker 5: It's, uh, it's.

Speaker 7: What happens in the interim for me, you know, and

uh so I don't I don't, you know, even though

we haven't been able to go out and solve any

more crimes together recently, we uh you you understand my

perspective of why that is and why things are at

a standstill right now.

Speaker 5: I think.

Speaker 12: I think it's you know, we understand that, and I

think we've been sort of trying to work on keeping

control sort of in the room, so to speak. I mean,

the whole Vermont thing is, you know, been calmed down

quite a bit. I mean I was in Vermont last week,

and you know, I met with all the federal prosecutors,

the state prosecutors, the family, you know, with that in mind,

with the idea of, you know, let's just try to

you know, hang with us here. You know, we're kind

of moving to a place where I think, you know,

we all get what we want as long as it

doesn't you know, spin out of control. And so you know,

I think I was pretty successful and trying to convey

that message to you know, most of those people, I mean,

some of the prosecutors there. I mean, one of them

said right out said, I think this guy's jerking you around.

And that's like an impression that a lot of like

you know, the bosses have, Oh he's jerking you around,

you know, and you know, not having sat here and

listened to you. I understand that's their perspective, and our

what we've been trying to do is try to talk

them out of that. One of the things that was

persuasive to them is the fact that you had met,

you know, just two or three weeks ago. I told him, Look,

you know, he's still sort of amenable to this because

he met a few weeks ago and just you know,

seems good with the idea of continuing to provide information,

in fact making plans for this sort of thing. So

I think that little bit helped us, and it helps

us keep control, and it helps you keep control. And

it may not be as fast as we like or

as fast as you like, but you know, keeping those

lines of communication op opening.

Speaker 5: Kind of showing.

Speaker 12: Some progress in our investigation of other crimes helps us

keep control.

Speaker 4: Yeah, No, I I can see that, man, And we've

been telling you that in a long time.

Speaker 13: We've been tumbling over and you know, right from getting

pressure for the lack of progress, like you said, you

to use your worst stall, you're that's why things installed,

and that's the way of that's the way our bosses

are seeing.

Speaker 5: It too, as stalled. Yeah. I didn't.

Speaker 7: I had just assumed at this point that Grandma wasn't

even really an issue anymore. I figured they were kind

of just sitting on their hands waiting to see what

happens with feeds.

Speaker 12: But uh enjoyed the twenty twenty hour flat out there

to try to It's a nice place, right, yeah, Huh

stayed in Essex, right around the corner from the handy suites.

Speaker 8: Yeah.

Speaker 4: I don't think then, I you said a non issue.

Speaker 5: Nothing is a non issue, right right be?

Speaker 7: I mean yeah, from I've sat a kind of an

unrealistic perspective on that sort of thing.

Speaker 5: So I that's what I was assuming at this point.

But I guess I shouldn't have assumed.

Speaker 4: That No, nobody's forgotten about it anymore.

Speaker 12: Oh, I didn't think they forgot, Yeah, but I just, yeah,

you know, at least of all the family members.

Speaker 5: I mean that, you know, sort of tryna.

Speaker 12: You know, they they wanna see what's gonna happen here,

and I was trying to kind of out there to tell.

Speaker 5: Them to, you know, sort of give it time, trust us.

Speaker 12: You know, we're making progress, and uh, you know, I

think I think we can make progress. I think we

can continue to sort of hold them off and just

sort of satisfy them.

Speaker 5: Just you know, with pieces of information. These meetings help.

Speaker 7: Well, I mean, yeah, if they help on paper, that's all. Finally,

I you know, like I said, that doesn't really change

the fact we haven't.

Speaker 5: I mean from my perspective, I haven't really promished anything.

Speaker 12: From their perspective, you know either, I think that they're like, well,

we kind of information what other you know, right, but

stuff as he told you, and I basically have to say, well,

you know, look there's some some details.

Speaker 5: I think you talked about something.

Speaker 4: Nothing, yes, but you will. Yeah, that is the way

we're I could see where they would be skeptical of yeah,

I think.

Speaker 5: But you know, like you said, they don't have our

perspective on it. That whole Vermont thing was turned out

differently than even I expected it too. So and we

and we've talked about that.

Speaker 4: We we know how to do things differently the next.

Speaker 5: Time, right, But we told you that back the summer.

Speaker 4: Now it's you know, yeah, October twenty second.

Speaker 3: Uh, and frankly, the ground is freezing, is real, So

if you if you wanna be involved with and help

us investigate anything.

Speaker 4: Uh, it was eighteen degrees that out yesterday in an anchorage.

Speaker 5: And I don't think I just assumed it's summer everywhere

but here.

Speaker 3: No, we were we were both just back east and uh,

it's getting fulled there too, so we don't have a

lot of time to play with and it's a a

long cold winter, as they say, and and without any movement,

wouldn't be anything we could do anyway.

Speaker 5: Hm, Well.

Speaker 7: Be that as a main from that perspective. Nothing else

that I'm involved in right now is weather dependent.

Speaker 5: So what do you mean you said?

Speaker 4: Temperatures the same in.

Speaker 5: The in jail, right, Yeah, they're.

Speaker 3: S No, I get that you're your temperature is the same,

But you know, everything's gonna keep building forward.

Speaker 5: For for yeah, for everybody else.

Speaker 2: Oh and your patience is probably getting better with your

situation that you're in. But everybody else's patients is propping,

then our bosses at least, yeah, and pressure your house for.

Speaker 4: Progress is the right.

Speaker 9: Yeah, I'm just gonna sea. Do you wanna take a

break quick? And I realized I'm missing I didn't bring

the right person over.

Speaker 14: Either a coffee cold, Oh, that's okay, anything else before

you were gonna take a quick break, I've left something

in the room that I needed to want to say.

Speaker 5: Okay, are you sing to be the same?

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Speaker 5: Going back on tape, re enter just nine thirty one,

I might watch.

Speaker 4: That.

Speaker 5: Yeah, I think you want diet.

Speaker 9: You know that your clothes were fitting a little snug

the cities that they put you in.

Speaker 3: Yeah, So do you get a any place somewhere work

out in your cellar?

Speaker 5: Oh? Yeah, I can. I could do jumping backs or

something in my cell I guess took me outside that jewelry?

Speaker 8: Yeah?

Speaker 9: Yeah, your cuffed even you go outside for your time.

Speaker 3: So you were talking about the maximum publicity versus minima policity.

Speaker 4: What does maximum.

Speaker 5: Publicity look like to you? What what does that mean

to you?

Speaker 3: Like just you sit down and methodically tell us what

happened too, or there's some other like dramatic record rooms

ready for.

Speaker 5: I could make it as dramatic as I wanted, that's

the whole thing. But tempting And so what does it

mean to you though?

Speaker 4: When you say that, Well, there's a whole slanging scale.

Speaker 5: But I mean I could say if I decided to

go maximum publicity.

Speaker 7: And if you know that from from my perspective, from

what I know, and from the resources I have at

my disposal, Like.

Speaker 4: I could get a lot of airtime out.

Speaker 5: Of this if I wanted to.

Speaker 3: Yeah, and if you wanna, you want to call the

newscasters and uh, you know, but but well they'll show

up whether I call them or not.

Speaker 5: That I mean, I I'm just saying there is the

aspect of of my of the way I think of things.

Speaker 7: But it's you know, at this point, it's it's still

pretty small because that's not really.

Speaker 5: Not really my nature.

Speaker 7: But at the same time, it's potential entertainment. So you know,

something I have to consider the matter.

Speaker 2: Of publicity, right, is there something that's gonna trigger that

or what's how would get how you decide that?

Speaker 5: That's a good question. I mean, I.

Speaker 7: You know, there's uh, there's a lot of factors involved

with it, and uh, a lot of unknowns.

Speaker 5: Still at this point for me.

Speaker 8: So and.

Speaker 7: You know a lot of things have happened, uh not

so much talking about the meaning between us, but.

Speaker 5: Just the way things have gone in general as far

as uh, the way the system works.

Speaker 4: That I doesn't write or however.

Speaker 5: You wanna put it. It's, uh, we don't wanna do

anything to jeopardize obviously.

Speaker 12: That you know, whatever progress will make it here. So

we're just sort of wondering, if you're going maximum publicity,

how's that gonna impact our cooperation on other crimes or is.

Speaker 5: It Well, it would drag it out for longer, that's

the only issue. Whereas the maximum publicity is you know,

it's not a big story unless it goes on for

years and years.

Speaker 12: So whereas if it's minimum publicity, you think it would

be pretty more expos to.

Speaker 7: Wrap everything up the next I mean, you know, you've

got the recordings of the first interviews that we did together.

So you know, from my perspective, this, no matter how

much publicity I got out of this, or how much

entertainment relative entertainment value I get, it's it's all relative

compared to you know, the way things used to be.

So from my perspective, it's that's what makes it uh.

Speaker 5: An unknown. That's why I'm not decided on it on

that route because, uh, because all o.

Speaker 7: Those things being equal, you know, if if if I

had my way, that's not the way it would go

At all, but I I am not.

Speaker 4: In control of all those other factors.

Speaker 5: There's just a lot of factors I'm not in control of.

Speaker 4: So part of it is me being spiteful and you know,

kind of frightful about what.

Speaker 7: Though to who for what doesn't matter. The point is,

you know, if if uh, if I feel like I'm

not being taken seriously or if uh things aren't going

my way, then that's my reaction to it.

Speaker 4: You know, that's that's or that's it.

Speaker 7: That's the only reaction I have at this point is

to do the maximum publist you do, to use it.

Speaker 5: To make a point. And I mean there's I I

you know, I there is a point I could.

Speaker 4: Make out of it, and I don't get what point

may I don't get it.

Speaker 7: I'm just saying, if if I wanted to make a

point using my case as an example, whether you know,

the media would potentially give me a pretty big soapbox

to make that point to people make a point that.

Speaker 5: You know, well, this is the system and.

Speaker 3: This is the way it works regardless, like a political

point about the system.

Speaker 4: Doesn't call it political. To me, it's pretty personal, but yeah.

Speaker 5: I got it.

Speaker 3: But for other people, you gotta you got understand just

like you don't care about those people that don't look

at Israel and say, hey, we're the value is the painion, right.

Speaker 5: I mean exactly.

Speaker 4: Well, that's that's what I entertainment fact a larger political

point about.

Speaker 5: And you know, you think the system works too slow

or whatever it is, or that there's maybe not enough

options or something.

Speaker 4: What other option would you have?

Speaker 7: Hypothetical I'm not I'm not going to talk about hypothetical options.

Speaker 15: I thought you brought up said but no, not not no,

I mean it's no, of course I have all kinds

of hypothetical options.

Speaker 5: That's not what we'll concrete up.

Speaker 4: That's my problem. I don't know what my concrete options

are at this point.

Speaker 5: I don't cause it seems like they change.

Speaker 3: Well, the one thing, I mean, we've been we've been

consistent with you, and the one thing that we I

think you've seen is the one thing that we do

control over the investigations.

Speaker 5: Right, That's the one thing we do control.

Speaker 4: And that's the one thing that you you know, you

have no more control over his investigations, which is.

Speaker 5: What we've been is why we're here, how we need

it about.

Speaker 3: Investigations into other things, and so I think the control

goes down over.

Speaker 5: Time to some extent.

Speaker 12: But you know, and to the extent we want to

pursue the minimum publicity options.

Speaker 5: Right, Well, I understand what you're saying.

Speaker 7: The control over that option goes down absolutely because at

some point, if we're not able to hammer out some

kind of concrete deal you can get all this everything,

all inclusive and done with. You know, time goes on

and I meant, more details come out, and it's gonna

you know, it's again, there's gonna be publicity either way,

right eventually.

Speaker 5: Right, So, so the more time goes by, the more

likely it is that we lose control of that option.

Speaker 7: Okay, But as far as the maximum publicity, you know,

that's something I can do at any time.

Speaker 5: I I just I think, you know, that's not my

first option. That's not my first But.

Speaker 7: If i'm if I don't know that I'm left if

that's the only one I'm left with at this that's

that's I feel like I'm being pushed.

Speaker 5: Into a corner to where that might be the only

one I'm left with. And if that is the only

one I'm left with, then I'm.

Speaker 4: Gonna use it to make a point, all right, But

nobody's pushing you into a corner.

Speaker 3: I mean, we've explained to you the processes that go on,

and we're trying to give you what's going on out

there as best as we can, and time it was

for it, and so things will happen.

Speaker 4: But no one, I mean, no one just pushed you

into a corner.

Speaker 5: I mean a lot of time, but given you a

lot of.

Speaker 12: Time, and everything we've done is sort of geared towards

this minimum publicity and sort of telling from her right

not to make any public statements about it.

Speaker 7: When I say putting being pushed into a corner, I'm

not referring to you specifically.

Speaker 5: I'm referring to the whole situation and things that are

out of all of our control, you know. And the

problem that I had, especially initially, was.

Speaker 7: Thinking that I could control the whole situation with just

you know, the few people involved with my specific situation.

That's not that's not I realized now that's not completely realistic,

you know that.

Speaker 5: I've realized now there's things we can control and there's

other things that maybe we can't, so.

Speaker 7: Which makes me all the more hesitant at this point

to talk about anything else because.

Speaker 5: Because I've as soon as I do, there's gonna be

you know, another hole. Listen, as I find out.

Speaker 4: That I wasn't expecting, I guess, I like, I don't

understand that for Vermont, you know, is there a bunch

of stuff we we know we can Vermont.

Speaker 9: We could have.

Speaker 5: I'm not just referring to Vermont, Vermont that that is

a part of it, but you know that's I I understand.

Speaker 7: No, I I had issues with with the way investigators

handled that case initially, I don't have, you know, I

I'm it's a non issue for me right at this point.

Speaker 3: So it's using that, I mean that that's what we're

we're looking at, you know, because we're here moving forward on.

Speaker 4: Other crimes, right using that as a model.

Speaker 3: You know, if you give us, you know, to the

extent you can give us some more information about different things,

then we can continue to move forward. And this is

like more you know, right controlled, Hey, you'll have more

control where they're more controlled.

Speaker 4: And if Vermont, if you kind of understand that, you know,

we can.

Speaker 5: No, I understand that we can. And you know, if

we were to move forward on the other issues I

I it's not that I in discrediting what you're saying

or disbelieving.

Speaker 7: You that you wouldn't be able to keep it on

the down low as it were, you know, in comparison

to the Vermont situation.

Speaker 5: I I'm not doubting that I. You know.

Speaker 4: The issue I have is that.

Speaker 5: Once I give out any information, and that's the end

of it for me from.

Speaker 4: My perspective, and the ignission's gone from you. Exactly right,

But it's correct me if I'm wrong. But I think

you have so much information, right, you have so much

information that.

Speaker 5: It could go on, But I wouldn't know. It's not

that you know I and you know. Am I wrong?

Speaker 7: Well, it depends on years wise. I guess yeah, you're No,

You're not wrong. But I'm I'm saying I just gave

you too much.

Speaker 5: Information initially considering what you're doing.

Speaker 8: No, no, no, no, I'm not.

Speaker 5: I'm not saying.

Speaker 7: You know, I did accomplish a certain amount of things

by giving you that information, and I'm not dissatisfied with

those things.

Speaker 5: But at the same time, I realize I'm in a

place right now where it's not much more that you

can offer me or give me. Realistically, I'm not to

say that you don't wouldn't want to, or that you know,

we couldn't work out some deal or something potential deal.

Speaker 7: It's just not The things that I'm concerned about are

just not in that amount of discussion.

Speaker 3: Well, let's writ you know, sometimes when you have a

complex issue and breaking it down into.

Speaker 4: Pieces is the best way to go taking it. You know,

things we don't control.

Speaker 5: And things we do control.

Speaker 4: Right, So you just we're talking about whatever we don't control,

as we do control, are taking small steps.

Speaker 3: Forward on all the information that you have that you

think is a value to us and probably is right right.

Speaker 4: Yeah, No, I I can see that perspective, and it's

inevitable that.

Speaker 7: This day comes you day, this day, this is the

day where you say give us more information or else.

Speaker 3: Right, I think things are gonna move on, you know,

things are gonna move forward. And I'm We've never been

inconsistent about saying you.

Speaker 4: Look, I know I'm not I'm not faulting you for that.

Speaker 5: I'm just that that's inevitable. Well, what from my perspective,

you have to understand that not much has.

Speaker 3: Happened, and from our perspective, not much has happened, and

that's where we're in a room thinking can we make happen?

Speaker 8: Right?

Speaker 5: I see that?

Speaker 2: Okay, Well, you know, like you said, progressions, it's inevitable

on this whether you help us or not help us.

Speaker 4: And so things have to move forward.

Speaker 2: Right from our per perspective, our bosses perspective, things have

to go forward. We would like him, all of us

in this room would like them to go forward the

way they've been going forward, right, but they happen, they've stopped,

and so that's why we're getting pressured to move things forward.

Speaker 6: That even though we all may think that that it's

a mood point, But well.

Speaker 4: Why don't you talk about what New Jersey US is doing?

Speaker 8: One of the things that we've talked about from the beginning.

We're gonna keep you post to us to what's happening.

So nothing is as surprised. Deborah Feldman we had talked

about her before.

Speaker 9: Yeah, New Jersey is looking into her more. FBI is

looking into her more. And that situation.

Speaker 4: Alright, Yeah, now maybe that good place wherehere we get start.

Speaker 5: No, right now, as far as I'm.

Speaker 4: Concerned, well, what should we tell New Jersey or what

should they tell New Jersey?

Speaker 5: You said to come to you, if.

Speaker 4: Their book any things?

Speaker 5: What should we tell New Jerseys?

Speaker 9: I don't know. I mean.

Speaker 5: Whatever, that's what I think you want.

Speaker 4: Well, they they need to know we got you said

come to you. We told 'em you gotta go to Israel.

I can't help own if that's what you're asking?

Speaker 8: What what? What?

Speaker 4: What do you want us to tell them?

Speaker 5: I can't help. Okay, Well do you know this person? No,

cancer won't go that.

Speaker 8: That's no.

Speaker 4: I is this the person buried in New York?

Speaker 5: No? Do you know where this person is? No? Her

name was on your computer? M what's your computer? Mine?

Speaker 8: Yeah?

Speaker 5: On your computer? My laptop? Town cows don't conk out?

Can raise?

Speaker 4: Yeah?

Speaker 5: I don't I do.

Speaker 8: That.

Speaker 5: I don't understand. You don't understand why the name was

on my computer?

Speaker 14: Right?

Speaker 5: Well, put it this way. If you there's a lot

of names on that rec what we're talking about this one?

Speaker 8: I don't know.

Speaker 5: Here where you search your name? We told you we'd

do this and we'd come back and try to get

the information.

Speaker 3: We can be without going over to try to get

the information, and so we're just trying to hold up

bar at the barn.

Speaker 5: Ru I mean, if you're referring to that, I mean

it's two thousand nine, you're not.

Speaker 9: What you said that it's yeah, it's brilliant.

Speaker 5: If you're referring to the New York trip, I don't.

I don't know what you mean by going over because

there wasn't anybody with me on that good.

Speaker 3: Okay, well, no, pray, let's just c I mean, I'm not.

I just wanna come over here with a clear picture.

You know, are you responsible for her death?

Speaker 8: No?

Speaker 5: Okay?

Speaker 4: Do you know anything about her disappearance?

Speaker 14: No?

Speaker 5: Why is her anabling New York ex kids? I don't know,

probably cause I looked it up. I can't imagine when

I Kimberly would.

Speaker 8: Is that?

Speaker 5: I mean, you have any meaning to you?

Speaker 4: Sure, but probably not on We'll just explain, so we're

not sitting here wondering.

Speaker 10: No, I'm not.

Speaker 5: I'm not. No, I'm not gonna talk about what's on

my computer. I mean, if you, like you said, if

you're gonna go out, I don't. I I don't know

what you're expecting me to say. I already said we're

I'm not talking about any more specific cases until we

get some kind of deal hammered out for something.

Speaker 10: Beyond that.

Speaker 5: The only concerns that I had when I said.

Speaker 7: You're doing investigations was mostly I'm mostly thinking of people

close to me and bring trying to bring them into

an investigation. So but yeah, so, yeah, I don't know

what you're saying. What if you're saying you're gonna go

over you like do a bulletin or something on that

trip for.

Speaker 5: Two thousand nine. Uh, First of all, I don't know.

It seems like there were several legs. I don't know.

I I don't know what you could want in terms

of this.

Speaker 8: They werena, they're gonna start asking questions. It's basically what

it comes down to. And I think up to this point,

my impression has been even pretty honest about stuff. Usually,

if there was something in the past that you didn't

wanna talk about, you'd just say, you know, I don't

wanna talk about it.

Speaker 9: You wouldn't, and I could be totally wrong.

Speaker 8: My impression was, though you didn't just directly lie to

us and say you did something or you didn't do something,

you just said don't you didn't wanna talk about it.

And so with Deborah new Jersey. FBI is asking questions

basically because it fits. It fits, the date fits, the

place fits, a number of things fit, and the fact

that she's on your computer. So we're doing what we've

told you we were gonna do, is come and tell you, hey,

this is what's going on. If there's things that you

don't wanna talk about, hypothetically, Hypothetically, if this were a

victim and there were things that you did not want

to talk about, because we're not to that point yet,

then okay, we're just.

Speaker 9: Asking for are they on the right track? Are they

not on the right track? And we can stop at that,

or we can go further if you want to go further.

Speaker 4: No, I didn't I didn't kill her.

Speaker 9: Okay, anything else related, No, I just didn't.

Speaker 5: Know if there's anyway, is there something else of the

story that you're just not willing to talk about today?

I I I just, I M I don't wanna talk

about it.

Speaker 2: So, I mean, I just, I mean, you seemed conflicted

with the answers you said, and you're saying no, but

you're kind of kind of saying yes also, and so

we're no, I.

Speaker 5: I never said yes. No, What I mean you're you're right.

Speaker 8: Well, I.

Speaker 7: You have to understand from my perspective, you I realize

now that you know a lot about the things that

I've done in the places I've been on paper, and

whereas I'm already I I in that respect, I feel

like I'm at a disadvantage. And I thought back on

some of our previous interviews, and I know that.

Speaker 5: You know, even though I never initially or I never

intended to blatantly lie, there have.

Speaker 7: Been some questions that I remember that you asked that

I was. It was kind of a twenty twenty hindsight thing.

Speaker 5: I think back, like, well, that's why they probably asked that.

Speaker 7: And in that case, you know, I kind of look

at it from a different perspective from your perspective. I

guess as opposed to mine, my memory isn't I've been

finding more all the time, as it perfect on all

this stuff.

Speaker 5: So, uh, can you give us an example of something

like that in the past. No, I don't wanna, I

don't wanna talk about it. I'm just saying, if that

sort of thing becomes an issue, then.

Speaker 7: There's any specific you know, something specific becomes an issue.

Speaker 4: And.

Speaker 5: Then we can talk about it.

Speaker 3: But well, one of Let me give you what just

jumped in my mind when you said that when we

were talking about uh, Texas. Had long conversations about when

you were in Texas in the narson or when when

you were in Texas, and you were talking about being.

Speaker 5: Really amped up right during that period of time that

whole week spent. Yeah, that was even what we talked about.

Speaker 3: Yeah, talking about Texas and the arson and the bank robbery,

and you know how you were feeling like you were

gonna rob a bank in one town and you were

out looking for it right right where you were. You

were sitting there and you were gonna rob the bank

in the town because you were watching the fire, right,

and you couldn't go to that bank anymore. Right, And

that was in Pozzelzell, right, and you buried some stuff

when you were there too, right.

Speaker 5: Yeah, So there's I I don't I know what I

know what you're getting at there. You know, there's some

things that I.

Speaker 4: I haven't told you about Texas.

Speaker 5: Uh, But that's not what I'm referring to.

Speaker 7: I was referring to things that happened years ago, cause

that's what jumped in my mind.

Speaker 5: I'm like this Texas thing, there was more to the story,

like we right that you know, that's but that's not

the same thing.

Speaker 7: If I if I choose not to talk something, that's

not the same as giving a misleading answer that could

be construed as a lie.

Speaker 4: I I I That's the point I'm trying to make.

Speaker 5: I've not been There's a lot of things that I've

left out. Obviously there's.

Speaker 7: And there's there have been some direct questions that I'm

just saying my answers could have been construed as a

lie or intentionally misleading, but that's not what my intent

was necessarily it was.

Speaker 4: It's more of an.

Speaker 7: Issue of do I leave it out, do I talk

about it at all, or do I just give a

yes or no answer that may or may not be the.

Speaker 5: Accurate.

Speaker 4: So that that's what I was referring to.

Speaker 8: And and.

Speaker 5: So you know, you talk about.

Speaker 7: The New York trip, that's the issue with that a lot,

because I went in a lot of places and and

several literatures Prior to that, you know, there were several stop,

different flights or whatever involved.

Speaker 5: So so that's what I was referring to.

Speaker 4: Sure, and we could lay that all out for you,

but we.

Speaker 5: Have, But we're not gonna you know, no, I'm not.

I'm not saying that.

Speaker 7: I'm just staying uh cause I I you know, I

remember the high points if you if you will, but

I the the.

Speaker 5: Everything else involved, you know, I don't the I. The

order isn't always crystal clear anymore.

Speaker 7: So that's something that I've been realizing more all the

time as I try to talk about this stuff.

Speaker 5: It's not nearly as clear when it comes out of

my mouth as it is in my head. So and

that was the case even with more recent thing, you know,

even the more recent things we talked about.

Speaker 7: So that's why I was saying, you know, if we're

gonna go back further than that, it's it's gonna be

m Yeah, but even just locations and yeah, and we.

Speaker 3: Can and you know, we can get you your records

to show you where you were at different times, right,

I can help with that.

Speaker 5: No one's trying to trick you off, but we.

Speaker 3: Are trying to make sure that we don't leave any

misleading impressions with the things that you.

Speaker 5: Said, you should write it down.

Speaker 4: It will be happy to share with you what we have.

Speaker 6: You the car where you drove, and you just have

to like it should actually should be pretty easy.

Speaker 3: It so, what what I mean, there's something more of

the story, just some there, there's something more to the

story of Debor that you're.

Speaker 4: Just not don't want to tell us now, I just yeah,

I just don't want to.

Speaker 5: Talk about it.

Speaker 4: But I'm right about that.

Speaker 5: Yeah, some of this.

Speaker 3: Stuff, you know, I think you you said you've been

reading and I know these guys in different of us

have been reading the different things in serial killers? You know,

is that something that you I mean, did you read

about specific serial killers or just the fiction.

Speaker 5: Like just have been interest in that kind of No,

I was more interested in your real life.

Speaker 4: Thing, the real like books about specific people.

Speaker 5: Like the btcra case. Well, yeah, but I studies on BTK.

It was that one of 'em?

Speaker 8: Or not so much.

Speaker 4: If he wasn't one of my favorites at all, Green

Green River.

Speaker 5: Who already study it was interesting? Interesting? I I I

I know all of 'em. I mean, even even the

ones I was more interested in, Uh, the older stories, you.

Speaker 3: Know, like Turn of the Century, okay, like going Away,

but like Jack the Ripper, uh you know that far back.

Speaker 4: Well, Jack the Ripper's not that interesting cause they never

caught him.

Speaker 5: But uh hm, yeah, there was just a different it

was a it WA.

Speaker 7: Everybody thought of it as a new phenomenon back then,

that SHI or other what it was.

Speaker 5: Yeah, well they're just want.

Speaker 7: Genocide was becoming unpopular, so serial killers I did to

find something else to do.

Speaker 4: But yeah, what was the most interesting ones that you

read about.

Speaker 5: Holmes? O was was wrong? Tell me about homes? Holmes

was I think turn of the century nineteen hundred where

he had a castle, castle.

Speaker 7: Dungeon combination and think of Chicago, and uh, he would give.

Speaker 4: Free room and board to people who were coming to

the world there.

Speaker 7: There they he was a doctor, medical doctor anything, or

at least he'd been to medical school.

Speaker 5: I don't know if he's got to practice anyway.

Speaker 7: Essentially, he had his house designed as a as a

body processing factory.

Speaker 5: She would invite people lived and stay in this nice

castle in these rooms and.

Speaker 4: Had gasp on dit.

Speaker 5: The rooms and grease greased shoots down to the basement.

Speaker 7: Mud Uh sell their skeletons to drug stores.

Speaker 5: And medical schools and stuff. How'd he get going.

Speaker 4: Incortons?

Speaker 14: I think.

Speaker 5: Incertain detective agency. They tracked him.

Speaker 7: She was Uh, if he went all across the United

States kidnapped essentially kidnapped one of his girlfriends or wives,

kids or something, took.

Speaker 5: 'em all across the United States or something. At the

time he got back, none of 'em were with him anymore.

And that's what got people asking questions and thinker Tom

He's back, trailed him and eventually found I think most

of 'em, most of their names he was. Uh. It

was interesting because he was pretty sane individually. He he

looked at it as more.

Speaker 7: Of a business enterprise kind of thing, even though I

would city probably unquestionably he was doing it for more

than that.

Speaker 3: But M and w W how how do people are

their books written on him? Did he write a book?

Did uh other kind of write on him?

Speaker 5: Now, I I've read, I read some books about him,

and then recently I just dug up a bunch more

information on him.

Speaker 4: M dude, So how where.

Speaker 5: Were the information, uh, the most recent information on him?

I think I was.

Speaker 3: I watched him on TV, but prior to that, I

had read about him in a couple of different books.

Speaker 8: Yeah.

Speaker 5: Hm, what's his first name? I don't know, is it?

Speaker 4: His initials were AHH Holmes.

Speaker 8: I had.

Speaker 5: Who else is it? Who else? Are really interesting names?

I I it's all interesting her being here. Why didn't

you like B? T K?

Speaker 12: He was a pack I mean number of years he

seemed to get away.

Speaker 5: He got away with him for a long time.

Speaker 7: That was the most disappointing thing about it was that

he never had to get caught, and he just got.

Speaker 5: Bored so that he was too much. He was too

soft in his old age to actually go out and

do anything again.

Speaker 9: So we.

Speaker 7: Decided to go to the publicity route without actually doing anything.

Speaker 4: And that's what it was disappointing.

Speaker 5: He was also pretty unusual in that he that he

was able to stop and been for a number of years.

It's very That's why I think that. Plus I saw

the live prison interview, and my impression of him his

personality is that he was actually sorry, yeah, for the

things that he had done younger, kind of like repented

or thought he was trying repenting of his ways kind

of thing.

Speaker 7: And I think that I think it was for real

cause I honestly I don't think if it was, I

don't think if he really didn't believe that he was

repenting of his sins, I don't.

Speaker 5: Think he ever would have stopped, cause he stopped for

like twenty years. I don't know, my mind, that's impossible.

Speaker 4: But why why do you say that it's.

Speaker 7: Just because of the the way he uh, the way

he killed people that you know, it's a pretty obsessive,

compulsive act to kill.

Speaker 14: Someone that way.

Speaker 5: It's not it's not like you're a gang banger going

a dratify or something.

Speaker 12: So how long do you think it'd be reasonable otherwise

to go before killing someone.

Speaker 5: Well, from my perspective, hindsight's twenty twenty. But you know,

my my perspective, my regret is that I tried to

have as much self control as I did.

Speaker 1: We'll be back on Thursday the twentieth with part two

of this interview. And for those of you looking for

a new adventure this winter, we are heading to Costa

Rica this November for our fourth Trova trip. We'll be

visiting coffee plantations, doing jungle walks, hanging out on the beaches,

seeing wildlife, and getting to know the Pacific Coast of

Costa Rica. To find out more or book your spot,

check out the link in the show notes. What a

perfect way to bring in winter with the tropics