July 12, 2012, part 1

In this interview, Keyes discusses the Texas and Eagle River caches, blood on his boat, sex workers, cemeteries, Ted Bundy, Dean Koontz, his time in Texas, and more.
Part 2 will be out on June 21.

TROVA TRIP to Costa Rica
https://trovatrip.com/trip/central-america/costa-rica/costa-rica-with-josh-hallmark-nov-2026

TROVA TRIP to Galápagos Islands
https://trovatrip.com/trip/south-america/ecuador/ecuador-with-josh-hallmark-jan-2027

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Speaker 1: This is a studio both and production.

Speaker 2: Day is July twelve, twenty twelve. Time is ten oh

five am. Case number three oh six A one five

six four two. This will be a meeting with Israel Keys.

Present will be myself and TFO Jeff Bell, just us

today my coffee.

Speaker 3: All right, Well, we have to go through all the

same we're going on.

Speaker 4: I want to make sure, obviously, I have to take

the court round that we didn't interrupt any lawyer meeting

or anything like that when.

Speaker 5: Came over picking this morning.

Speaker 4: No, okay, I'm Whenever you pred your rights, you have

the right to remain stile and understand that, yeah, anything

you say ken will be used against you in the

quarter of law.

Speaker 3: You understand that, yep.

Speaker 4: You have the right to talk to a lawyer and

have him present with you while you're being questioned.

Speaker 5: You understand that, yep.

Speaker 4: If you cannot afford to hire a lawyer, one will

be a point to represent you before and during any

question if you wish to understand that, Yeah, you can

decide at any time to exercise these rods and not

answer any questions or make any statements. You understand that, Yeah,

you understand each of those rights I've explained to you, Yes, Okay.

Also have to remind you that we're here to talk

about to other crimes. If we talk about anything and

nothing to do with Samantha Cone and we can't talk

about Samantha Cone, understand that.

Speaker 3: Yep.

Speaker 5: Okay.

Speaker 4: You also have a stand by council, believe Rich Kirdner

and possibly Japlin Walsh.

Speaker 5: Would you like either one of those attorneys present today? Okay?

Speaker 2: I think that's it you Primal Bart, do you forget anything?

You're probably no better than us. One thing I wanted

to do before we jump into anything is I messed

up the other day and I wouldn't well, I just

wasn't as thorough as I should have done. And I

want to add the bolt registration number on here or

I'm just gonna ask so it's clear what Bayliner we're

talking about.

Speaker 6: And then i'll just have you initial it. M. I'm

gonna put the plate number from the trailer.

Speaker 7: Two, today's the twelve, and then i'll just.

Speaker 8: Have your initial buy over there.

Speaker 5: Just that I made the addition.

Speaker 8: With the boat. One thing I wanted to we wanted

to show you was.

Speaker 2: A couple of pictures they had asked I know you

when we talked to you about it before, I wasn't

in here, but I think it was Jeff and Steve

that we're in here. You mentioned that there might be

where there might be something, some blood or something like.

Speaker 3: I didn't know how much at was left.

Speaker 8: I'd answer that question.

Speaker 3: Yeah, I know, I'd taken it apart.

Speaker 2: But if you can look at these and if you

can see just maybe looking at them, or refresh your

memory about where something might be or.

Speaker 8: You know what what they should look.

Speaker 5: For looking bad shape, does it.

Speaker 3: Considers it's going to be in that ending?

Speaker 2: Well?

Speaker 5: Yeah, where wh where is the top end of the motor.

Speaker 3: On this side?

Speaker 4: Here?

Speaker 3: Anywhere on this side? My guess if you find anything

that's gonna be along these trim pieces, like underneath them

or something, Okay, socause it got it, you know, I

got on the fiberglass. I cleaned it, but I don't

know if I Okay, where's the top end of the moment?

I it probably got junk. I remember, I took it

apart figure out what was wrong with the motor, and

I think by the time I had figured out what

was wrong with that, I decided the whole motor was

gonna be scraped, so I think, yeah.

Speaker 5: I think I just threw it away with all the

parts I took off.

Speaker 2: Anything in the boat, I don't They haven't looked in

any of the stuff yet. You even know what's in here,

what's in the tote or anything.

Speaker 5: Like that would be there.

Speaker 3: I d the tote. I don't remember exactly what's in

the toe. Underneath the toe, there's uh removed bull floor

panel where I used to keep concrete weights and stuff, Okay,

And I would say any ropes or anything that are

in the boat, I don't know one of them is

gonna be like a tow rope for skiing, but there

were I know I had quite a few other ropes

in there as well that I would use for anchor

ropes and tying the boat open stuff.

Speaker 2: So any tools in the boat that you remember that

would we should be looking for.

Speaker 9: Anything else of interest is going to be in either

those side pockets along the sides or in the glove

box that I remember. I think there's there's a lot

of storage compartments.

Speaker 3: All over the boat, so I don't remember what all

is that, but I know that there might be some

knives in the glove box. There might be you know,

miscellane stuff like that. I just kept with the boat

at all times.

Speaker 2: Okay, what we can do, also, if you're interested, is

once they go through it, we'll have pictures of everything

and we can show you that stuff too, if you

if that would be helpful.

Speaker 8: I'm sure it probably be helpful to trying to figure

out what's in all this stuff when you can't see it,

So we could do that.

Speaker 3: Yeah, it doesn't look like anyone's been in there at

all since I.

Speaker 5: I was surprised how good the polstery seems like it's

in pretty good condition. Still.

Speaker 3: Yeah, well that was all brand new when I was it.

That whole boat was gutted before I rebuilt it, So.

Speaker 8: Why didn't you So you rebuilt it?

Speaker 5: Like?

Speaker 8: It doesn't look like a nineteen eighty two boat to me,

That's why I was.

Speaker 3: Well, yeah, the interior was trashed and I got it,

so it's all new seats and upholstery and everything that

makes sense. And I think I had to replace some

glass and I don't.

Speaker 5: Know, it's the carpeting and all that stuff.

Speaker 3: I had to replaced the carpeting a couple of times,

at least on the back section.

Speaker 2: Is that brand new carpeting on the back section now

or is it doing something that should be looked at?

Speaker 3: Well, you might find stuff under the carpeting, but okay,

there was new carpet and then I got going on it,

so got it?

Speaker 8: Okay, all right, that will be helpful. So do you

want to copy of this? I actually the other day,

but now.

Speaker 2: All right, we had a couple of things, a few

things you wanted to talk to you about today. I

think Jeff mentioned kind of different than what the meetings,

you know, our meetings normally are just some of it's

kind of follow up stuff to what you have talked

about before, just making clarification kind of stuff and just

wrapping some of that stuff up, and then.

Speaker 8: Just a couple of new things. But Loki, nothing's.

Speaker 5: Start with the Eagle River.

Speaker 2: Yeah, you got more photos, just play some familiar.

Speaker 5: Yeah, the stuff was still there. There's more pictures down there.

Speaker 7: A few months.

Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm sure you saw that big ditch right next

to there.

Speaker 5: Did you dig that ditch or was that there?

Speaker 3: No, that was a burn and that was my plan

was to use that cause it was already dug.

Speaker 5: So I was gonna just have to fill it in.

Speaker 3: Right. There was a there was a big metal plate

down the road that I was gonna use to cover

it once I buried it.

Speaker 5: Keep it from getting dug like a sheet metal. Yeah.

Speaker 3: There was down by that other guy's driveway. There was

a big pile of trash in the woods. There was

a piece of metal that I was gonna use to throw.

Speaker 5: Over it and bury it. I tried to move that would.

Speaker 4: Well, it was thin piece of metal, but there was

lots of it was buried and yeah, ship on it

that like some countertops and stuff in therea and so this,

I mean it's still there, but it's that. That was

this time frame, if I remember right from our interview,

is this.

Speaker 5: Like the May twenty eleven time frame.

Speaker 4: Yeah, prior to just prior to the careers, right and

so and with this thing, I guess I misunderstood when

you were talking about it earlier.

Speaker 3: If you wouldn't mind explain it again, what was the

this was?

Speaker 4: This was this place open, like the gates were open continuously.

There's no snow when you put.

Speaker 5: This in at the park there, Yeah, because it's May.

Sometimes in early May it was open.

Speaker 3: Yeah.

Speaker 5: Was there snow on the ground, No, No, okay, and

you think it was.

Speaker 3: No, there wasn't much snow that year, but there wasn't

a lot of traffic there. I know I stay for

a couple of nights, but I think there was only

one or two cars that came by.

Speaker 4: Kay And when you staked it out, have you parked

your vehicle there or perfect somewhere else?

Speaker 8: No?

Speaker 3: I parked a vehicle down the road by the nature center,

and then I rode my bike back down. That's why

all that stuff was stashed there ahead of time, cause

I didn't wanna have my car in the area.

Speaker 5: How and how many days or nights or whatever did

you were?

Speaker 3: You guys up there for two or three nights. I

didn't stay all night, just til after.

Speaker 4: Dark, and just there wasn't but much traffic there, so

never an opportunity never arose.

Speaker 3: Yeah, there was only one. There was only one time

that I almost did it, but there was it was

two people, and it would have been a lot of work.

Speaker 5: I kind of changed my mind on that.

Speaker 3: Yeah, it was.

Speaker 4: And then during this time frame, this is also the

time frame you talked about, uh point warns off for

out in.

Speaker 5: That Harry, right, Yeah, right after you're about the silencer. Yeah,

that was.

Speaker 3: I think I went up Togo River after that incident because,

uh cause a lot of police started around ancor D after.

Speaker 4: Dark, so and the and the time out of the

point warns off. How late was that when that?

Speaker 5: I mean, how was it about eleven o'clock? Was about

eleven o'clock? Yeah? Okay? And you think that was mid help?

Speaker 4: How far before you left for you left on June

third to go to Vermont? How many days or weeks

was that before that?

Speaker 7: Uh?

Speaker 3: It would have been in May some probably mid May?

Speaker 5: And do you know for sure if it was an

APD officer or.

Speaker 3: Was it it was two of them?

Speaker 4: Definitely not airport police.

Speaker 3: No, I'm pretty sure I saw the car. I think

it said it had the big it may it may

have been an airport police if their cars.

Speaker 5: Looked the same, but I don't know. It looked like

an APN me. Do you remember what kind of car

was there other than the police car? What car would

you watch it?

Speaker 3: It was a super station wagon? I think what color?

Navy blue or darker?

Speaker 5: Maybe? Yeah? Are any more of these in Anchorage AIA?

Speaker 10: No?

Speaker 3: Okay?

Speaker 5: And maybe not specifically like this? Is there any underground

I know how sometimes you'd like to be about that.

Questions are not specificate. There's nothing exactly like that. Is

there a five gallon bucket? I might need those again

some day.

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Speaker 5: We just you know, I mean, I know, you don't.

I just don't want somebody else.

Speaker 10: I know.

Speaker 4: In one of our conversations, you made a comment about

how people like buried treasure and somebody somebody might find

one of those some day and think it's their lucky

day and they hit the motherlodes.

Speaker 5: It wouldn't be their lucky day. What's in it?

Speaker 3: Well, different things, but you know, thank money, it's not

it's nothing that will get them into trouble. So no

loaded guns.

Speaker 5: No, I don't. I don't bury him loaded. Thanks, I

don't even think. I usually bury him with the magazines loaded.

Speaker 3: I did that once and then the springs were all

screwed up after that.

Speaker 4: We like buried treasures also, we kind of had fun

with it. So you're looking for something I'll to do

with just kind of off to ask. I mean, it's

not giving up much, but it's something for us to do.

Speaker 8: If you told us that once before. Everybody likes a

barry treasure.

Speaker 3: Why I started burying stuff I was a kid.

Speaker 5: I always used to dream that I'd find buried treasuring.

Speaker 3: Fare Well, if I can't find it, I might as

well create it.

Speaker 8: What about outside of Anchorage?

Speaker 2: Do you have other juice stuff like this outside of

Anchorage anywhere else in Alaska?

Speaker 5: Oh, give us something to do. You guys have lots here.

This week is at more fun.

Speaker 4: Actually, you just want to get out with the in

the world. The weather's so nice up here. We'd like

to spend time outside. Yeah, it is, and you should

all take a field trip.

Speaker 11: Although the mesquitoes were kind of bad, and.

Speaker 4: I I.

Speaker 5: Stuff like that. I normally don't.

Speaker 3: I I only left that stuff there because I was

planning on using eventually. I just I normally don't like

to litter. I didn't really consider that littering, though, cause

I figured i'd be back to bring it.

Speaker 5: Up pretty soon.

Speaker 2: Did you go back to that spot at all after

you put it out there, like between after you left

for the couriers in June to when you got arrested,

Had you been back there to look at that stuff.

Speaker 5: Or to move it or A yeah, I've been back

up there to make sure it was still there or

to do more.

Speaker 3: Not well, was just looking out checking out the area.

I I could tell it was still there just by

driving by. Seems like I could see seems like a

schi Yeah, I remember I looked slowed down and looked

back in the lids and saw the lad a couple

of times. Oh, I didn't figure it would go anywhere

because it wasn't really close to the road, So.

Speaker 5: To stake it out any more times after that?

Speaker 10: Uh?

Speaker 3: Not not officially.

Speaker 9: I just uh would hang out up there for an

hour or.

Speaker 4: Two here and there, just to see what kind of

traffic there was, any any other places around here that

you did that kind of thing.

Speaker 5: I mean the steak out looking at trail heads or.

Speaker 4: Whatever, knocking out to having the equipment there.

Speaker 3: Oh yeah, well there was. I used to go up

to a Glutna quite a man. Uh yeah, the high

heads up there. Yeah, the lake and stuff.

Speaker 7: I had.

Speaker 3: I was planning on doing a kayak trip up there eventually.

Speaker 5: Did you have kayaks? Yeah?

Speaker 3: I had a kayak.

Speaker 7: Yeah.

Speaker 3: Well, let's Kimberley's kayak.

Speaker 5: Uh.

Speaker 3: I would use it quite often. Best thing in the

lieu of a motor boat. Actually better than a motor boat,

cause that motor boat, that Bayliner, mind, it broke down

in the middle of the lake. That was a long

paddle to get it back to shore. Packs a lot faster, Yeah.

Speaker 4: Especially if it's windy or you have any type of

weather with that big of a boat.

Speaker 3: Yeah.

Speaker 5: So, no other buried treasures you'd like to share with us, No,

not yet.

Speaker 3: That one wasn't bury treasure.

Speaker 5: I was just feeling bad about leaving it out there.

You just wanted to clean that.

Speaker 8: Yeah, it's an environmental thing.

Speaker 4: Yeah, cause that means you don't want to give up

the bucket in Texas.

Speaker 3: No, but if I get close to where it's at

which is there's not a.

Speaker 12: Tractioning device on it.

Speaker 10: You.

Speaker 3: Uh, No, I have a pretty good memory.

Speaker 5: I could play it pretty good.

Speaker 3: Cash places. I have a good memory when I need to.

Speaker 8: If we came close to where one was, would you

tell us.

Speaker 5: I don't.

Speaker 3: I don't know what you mean.

Speaker 2: Like if we were able to tell you in Airy

area that we're pretty sure there's one.

Speaker 5: In, would you tell us, well, I assume you know.

Speaker 3: I've been kind of all over the place when I

do go places. I don't know what you consider it close?

Speaker 5: Like state coun No, no, no, I mean just deducting

where things.

Speaker 4: Especially just in Texas, cause we have a little more

information on specifically where you were at in Texas through

cell phone towers and those kind of things. Like when

you left to Dallas to drive to Houston after the

bank in Azelle, you didn't drive forty five straight to Houston,

and you had to do something with that money from

Bazel because when you came back, yeah, had the money

with you, so you picked it up down there. M

didn't have it in your suitcase and get all moldy

and wet.

Speaker 3: Oh that's that was just the small bills.

Speaker 5: So the twenties are still in a bucket place.

Speaker 3: On that route.

Speaker 5: Small bills are a nuisance.

Speaker 3: People. Notice when you pull out a huge water small.

Speaker 4: Bills, and you didn't leave it in the Dallas area

cause you weren't playing and going back there.

Speaker 5: You knew your mom's gonna be going down to Wells.

Speaker 3: Well the money was moldy because it wasn't really I

didn't even know if I was gonna go back to

get it.

Speaker 5: I just I just buried it and figured it. I

know if I might get back to get it if

I don't. There was only a few hundred bucks, I think, so.

Speaker 4: So you've only you've only got a bury treasure of

a few hundred bucks that somebody might find there.

Speaker 3: What in Texas? No, I'm not. I'm saying the money

it was. It was buried right by the airport because

I didn't want to risk tsa final carry on asking questions.

I don't know it would overly paranoid maybe.

Speaker 4: But so then when you flew back down there, you

only took the small bills back out and left.

Speaker 5: The bigger bills. No, the bigger bills. I kept some

brooch from the small ones.

Speaker 3: The small one, Yeah, they were just they were just.

Speaker 5: Wrapped up in a bag. I didn't even really dig

a hole and just stomped the rest.

Speaker 3: Sup went behind a tree, kicked some dirt out of

the way, dropped the bag in it, kicked some dirt

over it, then.

Speaker 5: Left and it was still there.

Speaker 13: Yeah, nobody wants to pick up trash.

Speaker 2: One of the things that I wanted to go back

to was something we were talking about the other day

and just it's not anything specific, really, but you had mentioned.

Speaker 8: That, and if my timing at the dates are wrong

in this, let me know.

Speaker 2: But you had mentioned that when you were in the military,

when you were over in Tel Aviv Uh, you had

gone to a couple prostitutes there, and that was when

you were like in your twenties, probably right early twenties.

Speaker 5: Yeah, I think it was about twenty at the time.

Speaker 8: When did the whole prostitute think come into play for you?

Was that it?

Speaker 5: Or did Hell?

Speaker 3: Now Montreal?

Speaker 8: So Montreal was before the military?

Speaker 3: Yeah, well I I that's the first time I had

gone was before.

Speaker 8: I think, can't you've been to Montreal a couple more

than once then?

Speaker 5: Yeah?

Speaker 11: So was.

Speaker 5: Jump ahead?

Speaker 8: Now Anchorage is is that it's a proces visiting prostitutes.

Speaker 2: Is that something that you've continue to do over the years,

including an anchorage?

Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I've I've done it over the Years'

do you usually it's something I do all the time?

Speaker 7: Okay?

Speaker 2: Is it something that when you Is it something that

you use the internet for? Is it something are you

doing out to the street. I know there's not a

lot of street walkers anymore, at least up here. There

are yep.

Speaker 8: Thanks Listing, back Page and a few others.

Speaker 2: But is internet the way that you would usually find

them or how would you? No?

Speaker 3: That was I mean, really, I've only used computers for

the last few years. I was always seems like every

time use computers that get busted so by.

Speaker 5: Somebody who wasn't supposed to see it. So it that

way you didn't figure out how to clear your history?

Speaker 3: Well I got better at it, but I was still

paranore about it because it seems like the damn thing

will always pop up an opportunity.

Speaker 5: Could Kimberly ever see that stuff?

Speaker 2: Oh?

Speaker 3: Yeah, she stuff. Yeah, we were together for a long time,

so she saw. I mean my shirt mistakes.

Speaker 8: Which websites did you use the most? You mentioned Craigslist,

it's the most popular, I think.

Speaker 5: Yeah, I would use.

Speaker 3: I would use the internet or phone books to get

lists of phone numbers, and I would rate the phone numbers,

and then I would just you know, when I got

to whatever area that I was going to do, and

then I'd just called down the list of numbers until

I got a hit on one.

Speaker 8: How would you rate it?

Speaker 5: What was the.

Speaker 3: I would rate it just based on the vibe I

got off of the ad or the description online. And

then you know, usually only about twenty five percent of

the numbers work.

Speaker 5: So right now you know a lot.

Speaker 3: Of different numbers.

Speaker 2: So would you actually call and talk to somebody and

see what they had to say and that would be

part of the rating too.

Speaker 5: Yeah, okay, yeah, so with.

Speaker 8: That in mind, the rating thing, tell.

Speaker 5: Me if that's what this say is, did you figured

it out? I look familiar? Yeah?

Speaker 8: Is that what that is? The one, two, three rating system?

Speaker 2: Cause we know that those are numbers and we know

what those are numbers too. But okay, that makes sense

what you're talking about with a rating system. Then did

you call any of these.

Speaker 5: No?

Speaker 8: I don't think so, cause this was from your trip.

Speaker 5: Well it was in the car.

Speaker 8: It was in the car, so it was on that

when you're when you were.

Speaker 5: That wasn't a.

Speaker 3: For sure thing. That was just one of those things.

Speaker 5: If I had had the opportunity to go up there,

I would have done.

Speaker 3: It's not like I was gonna go for sure. And yeah,

I honestly I probably wasn't going to go because the

whole you know, there was a lot of bullshit going

on with my family there at the time, so I

didn't want to. I just wanted to get out of there,

and it's kind of wasn't really thinking about any of

that stuff.

Speaker 4: So you have place Do you have cities or favorite

or places to go that are the prostitution stuff is

easier or better or more more of it.

Speaker 3: Vegas or anything like that. No, I don't actually like Vegas,

but oh I don't know, just tune Gas is very

predictable with more interesting people in other places.

Speaker 8: You don't seem like a big city person either.

Speaker 3: Only if I have to be in I can get around.

I Yeah, I prefer more discreet locations.

Speaker 5: But you would visited Montreal a lot when you were

in upstate New York?

Speaker 4: Is that just cause it was the closest big city

or yeah.

Speaker 5: I mean anything special attraction to Montreal or Canada or

oh I I I like Canada's it's predictable.

Speaker 3: And but no, I didn't have like a specific hotel

or area I would go to. I would just go

to check it out.

Speaker 8: Did you do in calls or outcalls with the girls

or with the prostitutes? Did you go to them? Did

they come to you?

Speaker 3: I wouldn't do it unless they were willing to come

to me.

Speaker 8: Kay, what would you look for in a person.

Speaker 5: Or what would you be re what would you request?

Speaker 3: It would changed all the time.

Speaker 8: Mkay, you didn't have a preference or.

Speaker 3: Uh, I always had a preference, but it would change

it every time.

Speaker 5: It was a different preference, something like I had what

was the preher I was in the mood for at

the time.

Speaker 2: I guess what was the preference? Cause you you talked

the other day too that you kind of.

Speaker 8: Have a preference.

Speaker 2: But then it doesn't nothing's really a deal breaker. But

if there was a preference or kind of an ideal,

what would it be, Well.

Speaker 5: It depends on the scenario.

Speaker 4: I don't know what you mean, the scenario that you're

thinking of at the time. Right then, those changed, it's

what you're saying.

Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I'm not even talking about murders or that

kind of stuff. I'm I was the prostitutes is were

more of what I was getting at. I'm not getting

in that the other stuff that we're talking about the

other day.

Speaker 3: Well, I'm sure you guys found my corn collection. So

you know, I have a wide range of tastes and

it just varies.

Speaker 5: That's the way I am.

Speaker 3: When I go like a year obsessed with one thing

and then completely drop it, and then the next year

it's something else.

Speaker 2: And the prostitution thing played that same played along that

same thing.

Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, yeah, I never really took the prostitutes

that seriously, because.

Speaker 5: I mean I was never.

Speaker 3: I was. I mean I was only calling them because

they were prostitutes. I wasn't calling them because I was

thinking I was gonna kill one of them.

Speaker 8: Did you have any regulars?

Speaker 4: No, did the visiting the prostitute? Did that sometimes working

lieu of or delay or.

Speaker 5: Satisfy you at some point in time. So so yeah, that's.

Speaker 3: You know, it's a good outlet, but it's not the same.

It's anonymous, and depending on depending on the prostitute, you

can you know, do a lot of different things.

Speaker 5: So were you?

Speaker 2: Yeah? Were you into more S and M stuff type

with the prostitutes type stuff with the prostitutes? Sometimes not

not necessarily the part of it.

Speaker 3: Yeah, that wasn't honest the agenda. It's just.

Speaker 2: Could you ever use ropes and that kind of stuff

with the prostitutes as well or practice any of that

stuff with them?

Speaker 5: Not?

Speaker 3: Nothing real crazy, but yeah, I mean nothing very elaborate though.

Speaker 2: So it wasn't like you had, you know, your rope

set up and you would practice on them to make

sure it worked the way you wanted it to work.

Speaker 8: Kind of thing. Not that elaborate.

Speaker 4: Okay, you freak a few of them out to sell

that you were talking. You were talking about one the

other day, I and tel Aviv or somewhere that was

mad at you for some Yeah, so.

Speaker 3: It was, Yeah, she was pretty mad.

Speaker 5: I don't think.

Speaker 3: I don't think she was scared.

Speaker 5: I think she was just mad at me kind of thing.

Speaker 8: Is she the one that kicked you?

Speaker 3: Yeah, took an extra liberties, but she didn't pay for

I think she was mostly worried about going over her

a lot of time or whatever.

Speaker 2: She was.

Speaker 5: She was a pretty small, little Russian girl, and she.

Speaker 3: And I had been drinking, so you know, I kind

of threw around a little that I hadn't heard her hit

her or anything, but she I wasn't gonna let her

run the show, I guess. And yeah, so she was

a little bit annoyed, and she didn't speaking so.

Speaker 8: H, I would make things a little more than you.

Speaker 14: Didn't speak Russian? So no, did you see?

Speaker 2: I don't know if I asked this before, and I

don't know if I got off topic or if you

just didn't answer. Do you to see any prostitutes in Anchorage? M?

Speaker 5: No, don't want to go there?

Speaker 15: Yeah, okay, think so okay, 'h go ahead, you.

Speaker 2: Work one of the things that was on your phone.

There's a cemetery in Texas. Did you go to a

cemetery in Texas? What was the cemetery about? One of Glenrose?

Does that sound right? Yeah?

Speaker 5: I went to a few different cemeteries.

Speaker 8: What could you go to the cemetery for?

Speaker 5: That's a picture?

Speaker 7: What was on your phone?

Speaker 5: That's hut?

Speaker 3: Is that on map quest or something that idea?

Speaker 10: Yeah?

Speaker 8: I think you took a picture of your computer.

Speaker 5: Is what it looks like? You get care of some

problem with technology depending on it.

Speaker 3: What do you think about it?

Speaker 5: Oh?

Speaker 3: No, I that was mostly I was just looking for

different places, convenient locations didn't. Yeah, I I went to

a lot of different places because none of them really

seemed like they worked out. People were very nosy in Texas,

so I wasn't there.

Speaker 16: I took me a while to find anywhere. Then I

felt comfortable. Did you find that place?

Speaker 3: Well, I found a few different I didn't. I didn't

take anybody on that trip. If that's what you're asking

I was.

Speaker 5: I was that what I was, That's.

Speaker 3: What the thought process was. I didn't do it.

Speaker 4: But why a cemetery a disposal site, cemetery or abduction.

Speaker 3: Site, not an abduction site. It's somewhere to take somebody, Okay.

Speaker 2: So you'd take the cemeteries out, kind of like you

talked about staking out some of these other places.

Speaker 3: Yeah, I would go. And a lot of those cemeteries

have a maintenance sheds and stuff that are usually pretty easy.

Speaker 5: To get into, so and pretty remote.

Speaker 8: This one's in the middle of nowhere.

Speaker 5: Yeah.

Speaker 4: So is that similar to the thought where you were

saying you were thinking about doing some of this stuff

in churches, would it have be the same opposite maybe

doing it in the cemeterys or why just for the

remote subs are specifically because it's a cemetery.

Speaker 5: Well, it was more.

Speaker 3: I had more to do with the practicality than any

kind of preference on my part.

Speaker 2: So there was no significance to a cemetery like there

was to a church, like you had talked about before.

Speaker 5: Not really, I mean I like cemeteries. I don't know

beyond that, it's not really.

Speaker 2: No real The churches obviously had to do with the

whole religious peace, but that cemeteries, there was none of

that for you.

Speaker 8: It was just convenience, remoteness. You like 'em. You're that

kind of thing.

Speaker 5: Yeah, M like 'em. Why you like the cemeteries? Do

you think?

Speaker 10: Uh?

Speaker 3: I don't. I don't know.

Speaker 5: I just always have more abid fascination.

Speaker 3: Cemeteries a lot easier to explain your presence there too,

if someone happens to show.

Speaker 4: Up, so you'd find a stone of someone to pretend

like you were there to visit.

Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean.

Speaker 3: Easier to explain than something.

Speaker 4: So you're always thinking of that, You're always thinking of

your what you would say if you were for ask

about your presence.

Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, it doesn't always work, so obviously you have

to have a backup plan. But at least you know,

like s like you say, cemetery, it's cemetery, campground, something

like that. Public places easier to explain than prior for property.

Speaker 5: Did you get questioned a lot?

Speaker 8: It kind of sounds like you were pretty good at

picking places that that wouldn't happen often.

Speaker 5: No, I got.

Speaker 3: I got questioned casually a few times, not and it

really felt like I was by Pete right, Yeah.

Speaker 4: So did you did you get ever get in a

position where you were start a conversation with someone that

you would had thought about doing something and then they

for whatever reason, you get a vibe from them that

it wouldn't be a good idea or whenever you are

you able.

Speaker 17: To make a decision as soon as you see it

to see the person. No, it always has to be

I don't know, as soon as someone talks to me

and its use.

Speaker 5: To me than that's kind of puts on.

Speaker 3: A different spectrum for me. You know, you have to

take somebody by surprise.

Speaker 5: I don't know why, I just it feels like it's

like when I start.

Speaker 3: Talking to people, and I go into a different mode,

like I want to be their friend or something. But

obviously if I I've already decided to take somebody, then

I'm not their friend.

Speaker 5: It's but you don't give them that chance either.

Speaker 4: It sound like they have a casual conversation and then

overtake him or something.

Speaker 5: Do you do that so that there isn't anything personal.

Speaker 3: Up proud, I don't know. I hadn't really thought about it.

It's just.

Speaker 5: I think we already talked about this.

Speaker 4: But even though you were never questioned by law enforcement

about why you were ever at any of these places

or anything.

Speaker 3: Well, like I said, casually by law enforcement, Yeah.

Speaker 4: Like they would see you at a trailhead and just

right small talk with you, right, Yeah, when you hear

to fish or you hear to eye, those kinds of things,

right when you see.

Speaker 5: Your fishing license, right, And I usually had everything.

Speaker 3: Yeah, I always said all that stuff. I honestly a

lot of times.

Speaker 5: That's what I wasn't like, Yeah, first.

Speaker 3: Far back, because.

Speaker 5: I can remember, you know, that's where.

Speaker 3: I get a lot of the ideas, either fishing or

out hunting and thinking of them, Yeah, stalk them through

the woods and see somebody in the woods they don't

see you can sit there and watch them for a while.

I can remember doing that sometimes I was like thirteen

or fourteen years old, thinking you could.

Speaker 4: Just or just the fact that you're able to watch

them and they don't know you're watching them.

Speaker 3: Right, and then yeah, I don't know, I just that's

always that was always the most comfortable scenario for me,

because it's win win situation. They're out hunting or fishing,

and if the opportunity comes up, then take it.

Speaker 5: If it doesn't, it's not like it's you're out anything.

Speaker 8: You've talked before about you read a lot, and that's

where you've gotten.

Speaker 2: You've read about a lot of other serial killers and

reading about other crimes and that kind of stuff.

Speaker 8: Might be a weird question. But who's your favorite?

Speaker 2: We've talked about it, so we're kind of curious, and

we're curious in who you're going who your favorite is?

Speaker 3: One of my favorite ones haven't been caught yet, so

I guess.

Speaker 2: That's actually that's actually a good response.

Speaker 8: Okay, of the ones who have been caught that you've

been able to read about, we'll see who who was right?

Who was closest for us.

Speaker 3: I don't know. I I favorite, I don't really feel like.

Speaker 5: I didn't.

Speaker 3: I don't if what I've read about him is accurate,

I don't feel that close to any of them. So

I guess I identify most or my favorite, if you

have to put it that way, would be the ones

that I identify most with.

Speaker 8: That's a fair way to say it.

Speaker 5: I don't know.

Speaker 3: Maybe just going off of what I've read Ted Bundy,

maybe I don't know because I don't I don't have

a lot of respect for someone because because of the

way they lived. I guess I don't know.

Speaker 4: Did you like reading about all of them? But yeah,

when you start reading about them, when did you realize?

I mean, did you start reading about them because you

were curious about you?

Speaker 5: Or did you was it a study guide to sort

of speak? I mean that might be a weird question too.

Did you learn things from to do not Do?

Speaker 4: Or was it just curiosity of do you have anything

in common with them?

Speaker 5: Is that you were looking for? If you think, well,

the first book I read was.

Speaker 3: I think it was called mind Hunter and it was

written by an FBI profilers, right, YEA? I read that

years and years ago, probably when I was fifteen or sixteen,

and I was, yes, somewhat disturbed by it, just because

I don't know, it's always been that way. It's always

felt like I was kind of reading about myself in

a lot of those books. Not that not that myself

that everybody knew. But you know, what did that?

Speaker 5: I mean, did that.

Speaker 3: Worry you? Concern you make you think it was? Well?

Speaker 5: At first, it was, like I said, at first, I

was pretty.

Speaker 3: Conflicted about it.

Speaker 5: And that was all just because of.

Speaker 3: The way I had been raised and stuff, you know,

and you know, I I grew up with good people.

I was never you know, everybody's always nice to each

other and everything's all sunshine and roses, and so that's

why it was disturbing to me, because it seemed like

for a long time I.

Speaker 10: Was the.

Speaker 3: I either thought everybody was everybody else was faking it

and everybody was like me, they just didn't act like it,

or I figured that I was demon child or whatever.

I don't know, but I mean, all that went away

when I was in my twenties. I didn't feel bad

about it anymore.

Speaker 5: I just you didn't feel bad that you were that

you've had those thoughts. I knew that most people didn't

think the way I did.

Speaker 3: By then, I just didn't feel bad about thinking differently at.

Speaker 8: That time, just kind of accepted that that's who you.

Speaker 5: Were, and that's yeah.

Speaker 3: I just.

Speaker 4: You know, so d So you said, Ted Bundy, you

kind of felt like maybe you had some things in

you know, or at least in common with or some

do you know stuff about him do you you study?

Speaker 3: I know that he had a lot of uh he

was very uh sexually motivated in the stuff that he did.

And I know that in the last few years he

had a really hard time controlling himself and separa separating

his two lives, if you wanna call it that, and

uh and I also identified with him because.

Speaker 12: It seemed like, uh, he could s he was able

to separate different.

Speaker 3: Two different aspects or whatever you want to call this personality.

I don't know.

Speaker 8: Anything specific about his crimes.

Speaker 18: No, honestly, I am all right, Like.

Speaker 3: I said, I never really from what I've read, you may,

I never felt that close to any of them, and

I just saw similarities in all of them.

Speaker 5: I've honestly, I've always kind of.

Speaker 3: Thought of myself as more like the bank robber type,

except for you know, every once in a while I

do it because I can get the same adrenaline rush

off of that kind of thing. Or not even a crobbery,

you know, anything even like burglary and artisen.

Speaker 10: To a certain extent, So safe to say probably then

you've done more of those kind of crimes.

Speaker 8: Well yeah, I mean, is that is that a safe

assumption because.

Speaker 3: A practical crimes too? So, because lots of people do

those are practical because it's pretty easy to make money

doing it.

Speaker 2: Did you ever get close to being caught doing any

of those any arsens or anything.

Speaker 8: Which was arsenal or bank robbery or bankrover.

Speaker 5: I think I got pretty close to them.

Speaker 3: It makes you think that actually it was. It was

that one that that you guys know about now, that

one in New York Temper Lake. Yeah, there was. I

was leaving and there was a car that passed me,

and I knew it was a detective or somebody because

they had a.

Speaker 5: They had a visor light.

Speaker 3: Or something on some kind of light. I knew it

was a cop of some kind anyway, and it wasn't

like a official patrol car. But I think I think

there were a couple of people in it, and it

was windy roads going through the mountains and stuff, and

kind of on a hunch I was I was thinking, well,

because this was quite a while after the robbery, I

was quite a waste from the scene.

Speaker 5: I was thinking, well, just just in case they.

Speaker 3: Cause they have a vehicle description or something, I better

pull off the road. And there was a campground, and

I pulled off really quick and kind of kind of

backed into some trees and just sat there for a

while and was counting money. And I think I saw

the same car go back the other way, like it

might have been looking for me. So I don't know

if they I don't even know if it was the

same car. It went by really fast, but it looked

like it could have been the.

Speaker 5: Same Cary fast like it was trying to catch up

to you.

Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't know for sure if they were, but

all the same, I think I sat there for quite

a while, sat there for several hours, and figured by

then everybody who was gonna be at the scene was

gonna be there, Like I remember reading about it a

few days later. They that one really freaked him out

cause it was such a small town and they like

locked all the schools and everything, SWAT teams patrolling the

such streets or whatever. But I, yeah, that was I

was thinking at the time. I was like, I'm just

gonna hang out with this campground count money and stuff.

And he stops files act like I'm fishing And could

you have fishing with full? I think I did on

that trip. I don't think I had a license though,

not for you did take that that though? Yeah?

Speaker 5: Probably?

Speaker 19: But what do you think you were able to and uh,

and talking about the practical crimes, why do you think

you were able to get away with so successfully that

it sounds like you did a lot of bank robberies

and burglaries.

Speaker 3: And those kind of things. Oh, my days were numbered.

It's too many freaking video cameras new nays so so

time's changed. Yeah, it was easy when all you had

to worry about was fingerprints and witnesses and DNA. That

stuff's an't pretty easy cause you also.

Speaker 4: Had depending on uh, what you take, Like if you

commit a burglary, you still have to if it's if

it's something, if it's not monitored, if it's not money, you.

Speaker 5: Have to sell it or get rid of it or those.

Speaker 4: Kind of things, because you what did you when you

were doing burglaries those kind of things?

Speaker 5: Did you take them houses? Well, besides people.

Speaker 3: For the most part, I am it's not like I

needed the money.

Speaker 2: So what was the motivation then for the burglaries if

it wasn't oh, just.

Speaker 3: For old time's sake?

Speaker 5: Well, you said you get the same thing.

Speaker 4: They s they seem so different, but you describe it

as kind of the same. The killings to robberies burglaries

arsens to some degree. I mean, they they s they

seem so different and far apart, but you seem to

get some.

Speaker 3: But that's because when I go in to do a burglary,

I don't go in to do it like most people do.

Speaker 5: I I go.

Speaker 3: In loaded for bear and so to speak, and hoping

there's gonna be people there. No, not necessarily, just just

knowing that if something happens, it's you know, it's like

if I ever got caught in the act doing anything,

it's I'm not gonna go meekly away in handcuffs or whatever.

Speaker 10: You know.

Speaker 3: I always went ready for whatever.

Speaker 5: I just.

Speaker 8: So, what would your motivation be going in, what would

you be looking for?

Speaker 5: What would you.

Speaker 20: Uh burglaries, I usually just jewelry and guns small guns,

smallish so.

Speaker 5: Some of that are some of the guns that you

still have in places? Those guns? Or did you always

get rid of those mm?

Speaker 3: No, I didn't get rid of them because I was

worried about them getting uh tracked.

Speaker 5: So so you keep them, but you don't keep them

with you so that you're not caught with them.

Speaker 3: So you right, haven't been cash somewhere, and then use

them when you got you to limitations like five or

seven years or.

Speaker 5: Something like that. I don't even know, so you wait,

I can't tell whether that's supposed to be a joke.

You can you get charged with that, or whether.

Speaker 4: So you hide them from the statue of limitations period

before you use that.

Speaker 3: Thinks it a lot less likely that they get tracked.

Speaker 8: Was part of the burglary? Similar to similar but different to.

Speaker 2: What you talked about with the wood where you're sitting

there and you can watch people and they don't know

you're watching them. Is it similar in the burglary because

when you're in somebody's house you're going through their stuff.

Speaker 5: Yeah, that same?

Speaker 4: So would it be would you would you try to

do it to where they would didn't even know what happened,

or make sure they knew it happened, like I mean

breaking windows and breaking doors to go in or get

out somehow.

Speaker 3: And no, it would depend. It would depend on situation.

I guess more often than not there was usually a

lot of destruction, but sometimes I wouldn't. Sometimes it would

just you know, sometimes I wouldn't take anything at all, necessarily,

maybe a few little things.

Speaker 4: So destruction like damage rather than destruction like looking for

So because a lot of burgins you go into, all

the doors are open, all those clothes are on the ground,

everything's been destroyed looking because I never did that, so

destroyed to destroy.

Speaker 5: Yeah, you'd like to watch people.

Speaker 2: Did you ever wait in a house to watch people

or wait and watch people come back to see what

the reaction would be.

Speaker 3: I would wait in the woods sometimes that was years.

Speaker 2: And years ago now, not wait in the house to

watch for him to come back.

Speaker 3: Not no, not burglaries, No, that's.

Speaker 8: Getting onto other crimes.

Speaker 2: I'm guessing by that reaction, that's yeah,