July 12, 2012, part 2

In the second half of Israel Keyes's 7/12 FBI interview, he discusses trophies, burglaries, arsons, following other serial killers, the women he dated, the relationship between his violent crimes and arsons and robberies, and more. This audio will be incredibly important in season 7 of TCB, launching October 5.

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Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, I just ad libbed the most perfect preface

to this episode, and then, of course realize the microphone

was off. Let's see if I can do it again.

Probably not. Before we start this episode, I have a

few announcements. The first is I am so pumped to

finally be able to promote our tenth anniversary special here

in North Adams, Massachusetts in the Berkshires. Think of it

as less of a convention and more of a retreat.

There will be live shows, cocktail parties, activities, meet and greets, hangouts,

and plenty of time to actually explore the Berkshires the

perfect time of year, at the end of summer and

just at the beginning of leaf peeping season. And I'm

excited to announce that some of my favorite people in

podcasting will be here making special guest appearances, like Justin

and Aaron from Generation Why, Amanda from Wine and Crime,

Patrick Hines from True Crime Obsessed, Charlie Worrel from Crime Lines, Talk,

Plattis from String and Tell, and many more dear friends

Being announced soon, we'll be doing a live show of

the Karen and Ellen Letters featuring Amanda Jacobson as Karen.

I will be telling the story of Kelly Cochran too,

Patrick Hines, the research team and I will be doing

a very very special episode of Playlist and more. Plus

there will be studio sessions, an entire Bravo town hall,

wine tasting, a dinner party, and so much more. And

we're only selling eighty tickets, so this will be a

super intimate gathering. So join me the weekend of September

twenty fifth here in the Berkshires. Our closest airport is

Albany And if you can't swing that, just a reminder

we are going to the Galopgos Islands January eleventh through

the seventeenth. I'll be there with my partner Andrew Charlie

from Crimelines and a bunch of other incredible people who

have come on past trips with us. So picture it.

It's January, it's thirty five degrees here in the States,

but you're not here. Instead, you are in a tropical

paradise in one of the most unique areas of the world,

literally snorkeling with sea lions or sitting on a beach

checking out the blue footed boobies while drinking a pina colada.

Speaker 2: With me.

Speaker 1: We'll be talking Bravo True Crime and making. What I've

learned are life lasting friendships. Cannot wait to see you there.

Check out the show notes to buy tickets or learn

more about both events, or go to both and dot

Fyi and now Here is the second part of Keys's

July twelfth, twenty twelve interview with the FBI. And of

all the interviews I'm going to play for you during

our time away, this one will be the most critical

for season seven of True Crime Bullshit, which premieres October fifth.

Can't wait to see you then, and if not then

hopefully before. This is a studio both and production.

Speaker 2: Do you ever get close to being caught doing any

of those any arsens or anything.

Speaker 3: Which was arsenal or bank robbery or bankrover?

Speaker 4: I think I got pretty close with them. It makes

you think that.

Speaker 5: Actually it was It was that one that that you guys.

Speaker 4: Know about now, that one in New York Tulke. Yeah,

there was. I was leaving.

Speaker 6: And there was a car that passed me, and I

knew it was a detective or somebody because they had a.

Speaker 4: They had a visor light or something on some kind

of light. I knew it was a cop of some kind.

Speaker 6: Anyway, and it wasn't like an official patrol car, but

I think I.

Speaker 4: Think there were a couple of people in it, and.

Speaker 6: It was windy roads going through the mountains and stuff,

and kind of on a hunch I was I was thinking, well,

because this was quite a while after the robbery, I

was quite a waste from the scene.

Speaker 4: I was thinking, well, just just in case they.

Speaker 6: Cause they have a vehicle description or something, I better

pull off the road. And there was a campground, and

I pulled off really quick and kind of kind of

backed into some trees and just sat there for a

while and was counting money.

Speaker 4: And I think I saw the.

Speaker 6: Same car go back the other way, like it might

have been looking for me. So I don't know if

they I don't even know if it was the same car.

Speaker 4: It went by really fast, but it looked like it

could have been the same car fast, like it was

trying to catch up to you.

Speaker 6: Yeah, I don't know for sure if they were, but

all the same, I think I sat there for quite

a while, sat there for several hours, and figured by

then everybody who was gonna be at the scene was

gonna be there, Like I remember reading about it a

few days later.

Speaker 4: They that one really freaked him out because it was

such a small town and they like.

Speaker 6: Locked all the schools and everything, swap teams patrolling.

Speaker 4: The such streets or whatever. But yeah, that was I

was thinking at the time.

Speaker 6: I was like, I'm just gonna hang out with this campground,

count money and stuff. And he stops files act like

I'm fishing, and could you have a fishing with full?

Speaker 4: I think I did on that trip.

Speaker 6: I don't think I had a license though, not for

you to take that that though, yeah, probably, But.

Speaker 7: Why do you think you were able to uh and

talking about the practical crimes, why do you think you

were able to get away with so successfully that it

sounds like you did a lot of bank rubberies and

burglaries and.

Speaker 6: Those kind of things. Oh, my days were numbered. It's

too many freaking video cameras new nays.

Speaker 4: So so time's changed.

Speaker 6: Yeah, it was easy when all you had to worry

about was fingerprints and witnesses in DNA.

Speaker 8: That stuff's an't pretty easy, cause you also had depending

on uh, what you take, Like if you commit a burglary,

you still have to if it's if it's something, if

it's not monitor if it's not money you have to

sell it or get rid of it or those kind

of things.

Speaker 4: Because you what did you when you were doing burglaries?

What kind of things did you take them? Houses? Well,

besides people.

Speaker 6: The most part, it's not like I needed the money.

Speaker 2: So what was the motivation that for the burglaries if

it wasn't oh, just.

Speaker 4: For old time's sake. Well, you said you get the same.

Speaker 8: They seem so different, but you describe it as kind

of the same. The killings to robberies burglaries arsens to

some degree. I mean, they they seem so different and

far apart, but you seem to get some.

Speaker 6: That's because when I go in to do a burglary,

I don't go in to do it.

Speaker 4: Like most people do. I I go.

Speaker 8: In loaded for bear and so to speak, and hoping

there's gonna be people there.

Speaker 6: No, not necessarily, just just knowing that if something happens,

it's you know, it's like if I ever got caught

in the act doing anything, and it's I'm not gonna

go meekly away in handcuffs or whatever.

Speaker 4: You know, I always went ready for whatever.

Speaker 2: I just.

Speaker 3: So, what would your motivation be going in? What would

you be looking for.

Speaker 4: What would you burglaries?

Speaker 6: I usually used jewelry and guns small guns, smallish.

Speaker 4: So some of that are some of the guns that

you still have in places? Those guns? Or did you

always get rid of those?

Speaker 3: Mm?

Speaker 4: No, I didn't get rid of them because I was

worried about them getting uh tracked.

Speaker 8: So so you keep them, but you don't keep them

with you so that you're not how with them. So

you might have him in a cash somewhere and then use.

Speaker 4: Them when you act. You the limitations like five or

seven years or.

Speaker 9: Something like that.

Speaker 4: I don't even know, so you wait, I can't tell

whether that'supposed to be a joke. You can you get

charged with that or whether.

Speaker 8: So you hide them from the statue of limitations period

before you use.

Speaker 4: That makes it a lot less likely that they get tracked.

Speaker 3: Was part of the burglary? Similar to similar but different to.

Speaker 2: What you talked about with the wood where you're sitting

there and you can watch people and they don't know

you're watching them. Is it similar in the burglar because

when you're in somebody's house you're going through their stuff.

Speaker 3: Yeah, that same.

Speaker 8: Kind So would it be would you would you try

to do it to where they would didn't even know

what happened, or make sure they knew it happened, like

I mean breaking windows and breaking doors to go in

or get out somehow.

Speaker 4: And no, it would depend. It would depend on situation.

I guess more often than not there was usually a

lot of destruction, but sometimes I wouldn't. Sometimes it would

just you know, sometimes I wouldn't take anything at all,

necessarily maybe a few little things.

Speaker 8: So destruction like damage rather than destruction like looking for

So because a lot of burglers you go into, all

the drawers are open, all those clothes are on the ground,

everything's been destroyed.

Speaker 4: Looking. I never did that, so destroyed to destroy.

Speaker 10: Yeah, you'd like to watch people.

Speaker 2: Did you ever wait in a house and watch people

or wait and watch people come back to see what

the reaction would be.

Speaker 4: I would wait in the woods sometimes that was years.

Speaker 2: And years ago, though, not wait in the house to

watch for them to come back.

Speaker 4: Not no, not burglaris.

Speaker 10: No, that's getting onto other crimes.

Speaker 3: I'm guessing by that reaction.

Speaker 4: That's yeah.

Speaker 8: I also noticed on some of your on your computers

and send actually in some of the stuff in your.

Speaker 4: In your vehicle that you have some t different movies

you get. Do you get ideas from movies or is

that you just like no ideas movies? Still, my ideas

should have got some.

Speaker 6: Of them copyrighted kinds, some of those virtu Yeah, there

was some cheap, low budget slashing. Maybe some guy made it.

I been there, done that a couple of years ago,

and I was kind of pissed off with that one cause,

as far as.

Speaker 4: I know, nobody had thought of that or I'd never

read about it. Which one team was that I don't

remember what.

Speaker 6: It was, calling some stupid little bit college kid movie.

Speaker 4: He was all proud of himself because he was using

cable ties and what do you what do you do?

In the movie, he uh, strangled this girl with a

cable tie.

Speaker 3: I thought of that.

Speaker 6: Right after cable ties were invented, or at least those

big ones.

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Speaker 3: Anything else from movies.

Speaker 6: Movies. Movies are like video games. They're a lot of fun,

but they're not really not like the real thing.

Speaker 8: I guess I was with Curious System more whether it

was the movies that gave you ideas or whether everything

or anything you've done is kind of been your own thoughts.

Speaker 4: And I can't think of any movies that I got. Well,

there was a book I read years and years ago.

Speaker 6: They gave me a lot of ideas, but I can't

really blame that because those already doing stuff when I read.

Speaker 4: That book, But it gave you ideas. Yeah, what book

was that?

Speaker 3: Uh?

Speaker 6: It's called Intensity like ding Koons And that was the

first book I had read that kind of talked about

things from the other point of view, Like I read

crime novels all the time, but it's always from the

detective's point of view. It's never from the bad guy's

point of view, and it always kissed me off, so.

Speaker 4: That I could never find one attack. So like I

read that on them.

Speaker 8: Yeah, but you said, but you said you used to

read cry books, so you've got did you get ideas

from that?

Speaker 2: No?

Speaker 4: Nothing specific, I don't think.

Speaker 8: How about from the from studying Bundy and other people

on things that they did that they they either got.

Speaker 4: Them caught or that you thought was a bad idea

that you stopped doing or don't do or didn't you

because of that?

Speaker 6: I yeah, well I got lots of those ideas like

what not to do from books and movies and true

crying TV.

Speaker 4: Yeah, there's no shortage of what not to do if

I had. Like I said, I've been following my own roles.

Speaker 8: Yeah, Like do you know is for Bunny reasons?

Speaker 4: You know enough about him to know where he was

doing things and those kind of things, you knows? Yeah, yeah,

I know, I yeah, I know. Serial killer is all

the way back to.

Speaker 2: That.

Speaker 6: My other serial killer hero, I guess not really even

relevant because he was.

Speaker 4: So long ago, was HH Holmes.

Speaker 6: He was pretty much a genius, but back in his day,

it was pretty easy to be a genius, cause nobody

really expected stuff like that back then, so you got

away with it for.

Speaker 10: A long time, and no technology really to have to outsmart.

Speaker 6: Right back then, you could hire other people to build

dungeons for you and nobody would even think twice about it.

Speaker 4: I'm like, oh, like I wants a dungeon.

Speaker 6: Well, anything I built like that nowadays I kind of

have to do myself.

Speaker 2: That kind of warrants an obvious follow up question of

do you have a dungeon?

Speaker 3: Have you ever built anything like that?

Speaker 11: Na?

Speaker 4: No, nothing, Now, however, it something you would have liked

to have, though, Oh I had plenty of plans for him,

it's not really the more my retirement plan.

Speaker 2: Your stuff seems to be. The stuff that we know

about seems to be kind of quick in the sense

that it happens over a day period of time or

twelve hour period of time or something like that.

Speaker 10: And again, I've told you weren't gonna get into like

push it for specifics on a lot of this, on

this kind of stuff.

Speaker 2: But were there crimes? Were you you did keep someone

for longer than that?

Speaker 4: No? No, it's a few hours.

Speaker 8: Plans too and didn't work out, or just you purposely

cut it short like that for logistics.

Speaker 4: Reasons and uh, getting caught Yeah, I was.

Speaker 6: I I had plans to you know, it would have been.

Speaker 4: Nice if I coulda done that, but I was never

set up.

Speaker 6: To do it to where it will. It would have

been pretty higher risk if I had ever tried to

do that.

Speaker 2: You joked about the retirement plan. Was that something you

had thought about trying to figure out a way to

do that though? Logistically a way to be able to

do that.

Speaker 6: Yeah, it's a lot easier to do it if you're

a bachelor.

Speaker 4: Mm so it would have been a few years before

started construction. H was it was it? And I I mean,

I guess I don't know that any of them. Was

it easy to.

Speaker 8: Have a relationship with, say Kimberly and still NB or

did it to become harder or it seems like it

would be extremely difficult to maintain kind of.

Speaker 10: The two lives that you've talked about.

Speaker 6: Uh, it only got hard at the end, But it

wasn't the relationship.

Speaker 4: It was you know, everything got harder at the end.

It was.

Speaker 6: L just lost inter It was like I I simultaneously

lost interest.

Speaker 4: In a lot of other things and Uh.

Speaker 6: Tried to kick started and get you know, get it back,

kind of snap myself out of it a few times,

and then just couldn't maintain anymore.

Speaker 4: So you know, So it was it wasn't like the

typical relationship breakdown of you. Oh yeah, it was.

Speaker 11: It was. Yeah.

Speaker 3: Do you think over the years.

Speaker 2: Any of any of the people that you were with

Kimberly or whoever, or Cammy or whoever before, do you

think any of them had any any ideas.

Speaker 3: About about the other side of you?

Speaker 4: I imagine.

Speaker 6: Twenty twenty hindsight, you might remember some stuff, but I

don't can't remember any time where where there was any

question as to what I was or who I was.

Speaker 2: Maybe questions about where you were, but not necessarily there were.

Speaker 6: Some questions about where I had been, but I always,

like I say, I usually.

Speaker 4: Planned things so that I had I don't know.

Speaker 6: They sounded like good reasons excuses to me, and nobody

ever really called me on.

Speaker 4: So I don't know.

Speaker 8: And I know at one point in time you told

us that, uh, Kimberly was oblivious to.

Speaker 4: You know, you use that word, I think, to what

was going on and stuff.

Speaker 8: Do you think that there was this you know when

you met her, was there a tonu type about attraction

like that that you perceived that that that it would

be an easy relationship to carry on cause she wouldn't

be suspicious Miss Tammy the same way. I've never I

don't know, I've never met Tammy. I have the Kimberly,

but nothing.

Speaker 4: No, there's yeah, there's certain personality types that.

Speaker 6: I would work harder at having a relationship with because

you know, if they would have, uh like Kimberly for example,

she has pretty hectic career and her own she's has

her own social life, and.

Speaker 4: She's, I guess she'd say, like a self contained person.

Speaker 6: So we had a good relationship, but it was easy

to separate myself from it and uh, go do my

own thing, and then you know, she would do her

own thing shot and both of us were always okay

with that. Whereas you know, some other personality types, you know,

like once you're together, the it's like everything has to

be done together, and that.

Speaker 4: Would have made it kind of hard.

Speaker 6: But you know, like with Kimberly and the girlfriend I

had before her, they they had their own careers and stuff.

So if I said, well, I'm going to fly stuff

in such a place and do this and that, and

they would say okay, and there was never this, well

I want to come with you.

Speaker 2: You know.

Speaker 4: It's like they wouldn't do that because they had a job,

you know. So was there a relationship between Tammy and Kimberly.

Not really, It's just.

Speaker 6: There was a little bit of drama at one point,

But no, there wasn't a relationship.

Speaker 8: Is that somebody in Washington? You said, you're asking if

they knew each other? No, No, I'm asking who it

is somebody else? Yeah, for a while, who was that?

Speaker 4: Uh? Her name was Denise. She lived in.

Speaker 6: She had a family in Niabay and she lived in

Kent down by Sea, Tark or something.

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Speaker 3: Did you date a lot?

Speaker 4: Not really. I usually had a girlfriend, but I.

Speaker 2: Didn't you know, were they more kind of just long term,

long term relationships?

Speaker 3: It wasn't just a lot of short relationships.

Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean there were periods in between where I

would date a few people, though.

Speaker 4: For the most part, was you know, longer term the better.

Speaker 3: When did you When did you meet Tammy?

Speaker 11: How long?

Speaker 4: Because I met her when I was an army.

Speaker 3: When you were stationed in Washington.

Speaker 4: Yeah, I think that was. I think I met her

right after I got back from Egypt.

Speaker 2: So time frame wise, you were in because I know

I missed some of this, and so stop me if

we've been you guys have been through this before you

went into the military.

Speaker 3: When you were how old? Twenty?

Speaker 10: Okay, so that would have been ninety.

Speaker 3: Eight, right, I.

Speaker 2: Knew the date at one point, but yeah, sometime in

ninety eight, okay.

Speaker 3: And then in the military you moved around a little bit.

Speaker 2: In the military, you went overseas, came back, and then

you were in stationed in Washington. And then were you

stationed in Washington when you got out of They were

in Washington when you decided to get out of the.

Speaker 3: Military, okay.

Speaker 2: And then from there you went to live in the

abbey with Tammy.

Speaker 3: Okay. Where'd you move from the where's the next place

you moved then? From the abbay here? Okay?

Speaker 2: So it's just been since military, it's only been Alaska

in Mia Bay, yeah, okay. Prior to the military, I

know you had said you'd been in You were in

Oregon for like that nine months or whatever building the house?

Speaker 3: Was that right before the military?

Speaker 2: No?

Speaker 4: Then I lived in upstate New York for well, it

was less than a year before I went went in

the army.

Speaker 8: Okay, So you were in Oregon in like ninety six

ninety seven, right.

Speaker 2: And then upstate New York and then and then before

Oregon it was.

Speaker 4: Was it Washington?

Speaker 2: Okay, cause you're with your f you're with your parents, yeah, okay.

Speaker 3: And your properties in New York.

Speaker 4: Yeah, alright, I think I got it.

Speaker 2: Well.

Speaker 8: One of the things I was noticing, uh and looking

at some of your stuff, that looks like when you

came to uh Alaska, it looks like financially things started.

Speaker 4: I mean, is it was it?

Speaker 8: Is it because it was more expensive up here? Or

is it because you had to go outside to do

these do the things that you were doing when you

were lived outside.

Speaker 4: I mean, you've got when you lived in Washington, you

could drive, I assume to places, and then you come

up here and you have.

Speaker 8: To fly because you don't like doing things right in

your own I mean, it looks like there's an obvious

progression of would you say you had money problems or.

Speaker 11: No?

Speaker 6: I mean I had a lot of credit. I wasn't

really worried about the credit. We're planning on paying it

off or probably not so I guess then my question.

Speaker 8: Would be then, so since you since you lived in Alaska,

would you say that with the second you know, with

some of these things like being financing things, whether you

had with burglaries or robberies that they have, did you

have to do more when you were here to to survive?

In other words, and keep looks like making your minimum

payments on your credit cards when they got to the.

Speaker 6: Seems like there was one time that I did, there

was something that went wrong there. That happened a few

times after I went in business for myself, there were

there would be a job that went batter I didn't

get paid for, and then I would have to scramble

a little bit.

Speaker 4: But for the most part I didn't really worry too much.

Speaker 6: About that kind of scramble, meaning figure out what to

do I was going to do about mine to pay

the bills.

Speaker 4: But for the most part, I didn't really like to

worry about that stuff too much.

Speaker 11: And just.

Speaker 8: A lot of stuff is just curiosity too Like for

you said the bank and Azell you said, I said,

tend to.

Speaker 4: The dollars a lot of money. You're like that, it's not, well,

it's a small bank. It seems like it was a

pretty small bank. What's what's a what it would be a.

Speaker 8: Without hypothetically what would be a good It was a

good bank?

Speaker 4: Score if ten thousands not No, that's I'm not saying

that's bad. I don't know.

Speaker 6: I'm just saying for a bank robbery, that's I don't know,

for a takeover robbery, that's not that much money for.

Speaker 4: A good takeover robbery. Well, could one expect I would

think more than ten thousand dollars.

Speaker 8: So if someone was a if someone was a pretty

decent bank robbery and had a oh fourteen fifteen year

career doing it, how much money do you think one

could maybe not accumulate?

Speaker 4: But have you thought of that? Do you know that exactly?

Speaker 11: I don't know.

Speaker 4: Okay, I suppose you accumulate a lot of money, can

accumulate a lot of things.

Speaker 3: What's the most you've gotten?

Speaker 4: I I don't know that more than ten.

Speaker 8: But I think we asked you this before too, So

you're not You're not. You're not gonna say that.

Speaker 4: The bank robberies and stuff like that was to specifically.

Speaker 8: Facilitate and finance these other things that you were doing,

like every trip that you went out and need you

to continue to do with no or it was.

Speaker 4: I mean, did you do that too so you couldn't

afford to continue to do this?

Speaker 12: No, I'm the bank robberies.

Speaker 4: Were more of a like a challenge kind of thing.

Speaker 6: And a curiosity kind of thing to see if I

could get away with it.

Speaker 4: I guess because it was, you know, not like you

can do one and not be noticed.

Speaker 8: It's did you progress in them from I think you'd

referred to it as poor men's bank robbery.

Speaker 4: And I never did I know a robbery, an I

wasn't really in my mind that wasn't even really a robbery.

I didn't really.

Speaker 11: Have any interest in that.

Speaker 8: And so then before each one of these and you

assumed you planned your route.

Speaker 10: I know you have.

Speaker 8: I know you looked at the routes in and out

of towns and things like that when you were looking

at towns.

Speaker 4: So did you what.

Speaker 8: If A did you do a scenario where you after

this bank robbery, if the cops come in, I'm gonna

do this. I'm gonna drive this way if something happens.

I mean, how did you prepare for what could have happened?

Or do you think you would have just improvised?

Speaker 4: I mean, did you always have.

Speaker 6: A Yeah, I have.

Speaker 4: I usually would have two or three different routes planed out,

and uh try to figure.

Speaker 6: Out what the most likely route or the best route

to take based on whether you know how many police

might be coming in from where type of thing.

Speaker 8: Did you think about military police or did you ever

have you ever thought about being police?

Speaker 4: Yeah, I considered I considered it. I by the time

I got out of the military, iide decided it probably

wasn't a very good idea, though I don't know the

whole polygrap thing. I know, I wasn't really thinking of that,

but yeah, that's a good point. What kind of questions

do I ask? So, you know, did you actually try

to become a police possible?

Speaker 2: No.

Speaker 6: I think I was looking at applications and stuff at

one point, but I'm not not seriously, I too many

domestic situations to deal with. If it was all dang

bandshoot 'em out, the probably would have been there in

a minute.

Speaker 8: I heard a little of that, right, But that's that's

why I say. You said you read CRI criminal books

and stuff, so you had some propensity to or were

you reading them just to.

Speaker 2: Oh?

Speaker 6: I was interested in it, but I was never I

was never interested in being the good guy. I was

interested in having a career. I wasn't really interested in

becoming a I don't know what the traditional reasons are.

Speaker 4: For white people and police.

Speaker 11: But.

Speaker 4: I guess I was more.

Speaker 6: Interested in it curiosity.

Speaker 4: Better to be on the inside than on the outside

looking at kind of thing.

Speaker 11: So so it would have been a cover job.

Speaker 8: Well, yeah, did you try other jobs. I know you

were you know, contractor for him, but even in Theia

Bay you were maintenance or I.

Speaker 4: Worked for the tribe.

Speaker 6: Yeah, I think well officially I was parts and recreation,

but I did a lot of different things there for them.

Speaker 8: Any jobs at for other people like businesses.

Speaker 6: McDonald's, no, no, my my, Uh. I've had a lot

of I've done a lot of work and jobs, But

as far as like jobs where you pay taxes, it's.

Speaker 4: I haven't really had that many. Do you believe in

taxes or is that just necessarily believe in staying under

the radar so they don't ask why you're not right?

Had you try the were.

Speaker 6: My thoughts when I was arrest and I was like, man,

I've got sure I'm not gonna get to file my taxes.

Speaker 10: Had you traveled to Alaska before you moved up here?

Speaker 11: Had you visited?

Speaker 4: Yeah? When did you visit? I don't remember. It seems

like I flew up a couple of times though.

Speaker 2: Like right before you moved up and in planning or

was it like years before for trips and that kind

of thing.

Speaker 4: Well, it was right before.

Speaker 6: Prior to that, I had done some road trips into Canada,

I think, but I don't.

Speaker 4: Yeah, I've never made it.

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Speaker 4: The easiest one that I ever going to find. Yeah,

probably is even with your help up, you're really close.

Speaker 2: I think you had said like a quarter mile past the.

Speaker 10: Parking lot ended up being about a half mile, but

beyond that.

Speaker 4: It was Yeah, did you was there something like that

in the road or how how do you know where

in the woods it was just because of the burr

or was there like.

Speaker 6: Poles or no, just landmarks, trees, dragways like that?

Speaker 4: I actually saw that. Did it pick it on like

a bit flat shovel would have sucked? Actually dig it

a hole? So there's that ditch. I bet he was

just gonna fill it in. Yeah, it was already dug.

It wasn't really only a room for one person in.

Speaker 2: So we've asked you a lot of questions so far,

you have any questions for us?

Speaker 4: Do you have any Vermont pictures for me.

Speaker 8: No, we need I mean we I guess we could

show you pictures of the dump that does that you

want to see.

Speaker 4: It's not gonna there isn't any There hasn't been a

recovery there yet. Oh I know, so eventually I want

to see pictures of it all, though.

Speaker 3: Do we You didn't see if I haven't seen a

picture of the landfill yet, I saw an.

Speaker 4: Aerial picture from the news bulletin.

Speaker 2: Yeah, I think we No, I think we've got some

of the lifeful or.

Speaker 4: I just want to see I believe.

Speaker 11: Why.

Speaker 2: There's a lot of money that's been spent out there

already on this.

Speaker 3: So No, I think we can. We can find a

couple of pictures in for next time. See.

Speaker 4: That's yeah.

Speaker 6: One thing I was gonna say, as this goes along,

as this progresses, we'll have to work out some sort

of arrangement where I get to see.

Speaker 4: The same thing, the evidence, the well your evidence. I

guess if if we if we recovered, there's gonna be something.

Speaker 6: Not just that, but everything we talk about, like videos, you.

Speaker 3: Want to see, like what we find.

Speaker 4: That's not saying you have to see everything. I'm sure

you're not gonna show me everything anyway, but you know.

Speaker 3: Like something to corroborate that were.

Speaker 4: Just something I need to look at.

Speaker 2: Was that because you want to make sure that we're

being honest with you, or because.

Speaker 3: You just want to see it?

Speaker 4: Because I just want to see it.

Speaker 6: Not reading many kicks in twenty three hour lockdown, so

I gotta take my kicks.

Speaker 11: Or can get.

Speaker 2: So.

Speaker 4: One of the things wanted.

Speaker 8: I wanted to kind of collaborate too on these these

other serial killers and stuff.

Speaker 4: Did they like.

Speaker 8: Did you read about anything that they've done and mimic

anything they did, or go to the place they did,

or anything that you would say.

Speaker 4: That you know paralleled or did any thing?

Speaker 8: No, nothing specific new ideas. Here's we're all new ideas.

No other looks.

Speaker 4: Well, different, same locations, anything like that. No, I don't

think so, not consciously. Do you know history about these people.

Speaker 8: Like where they were born, where they where they were,

their position in the family, was their profile?

Speaker 4: Yeah, I know I know a.

Speaker 6: Lot about them, just nothing special though, just what anybody

could read about him.

Speaker 4: It's not like I made a hobby out of researching him.

But it's it's just one of these.

Speaker 6: Sort of things that anytime I came across to anything

related to it, I would read it or tune into it.

Speaker 4: Or is that do you is that?

Speaker 8: Where do you put your and you in the same

category as some of these people, especially like you said Bundy,

because you kind of have some type.

Speaker 6: I relate to him, but I don't really myself in

the same category.

Speaker 11: I don't know.

Speaker 8: Because you know, like later on and I don't know

whether why would his moves were Bundy's word later on

and while he was in jail one to help law

enforcement and he was trying to help with the Green River.

Speaker 4: Those guys did not know that. Do you think that's

something that serial killers?

Speaker 8: Do you think that he and there's no place like

where serial killers talk on the internet, or you don't

you can't see someone and see same traits and those

kind of things.

Speaker 4: Oh, I think that. I think there have been people

I've talked to over the years that.

Speaker 6: I definitely get a vibe off of, just because I

have a hard time controlling my own so I pick

up on things that people do to misdirect, yeah, attention

from certain areas of their lives or certain things they say,

same thing I do.

Speaker 4: Type of thing.

Speaker 3: You talked about Matthew before. Is that kind of the

guy in the military you were talking about. Is that

kind of what you're.

Speaker 4: Talking about similarly, Yeah, he was.

Speaker 2: He was.

Speaker 4: Kind of different in that he had a really rough

time as a teenager kind of thing. So I don't

know how much of.

Speaker 6: How much of the things I picked up for him

from him were things that he couldn't really control on

how much was like leftover like damage to this type stuff,

because I know he was on heroin and stuff before

he got in the army, so I know he went

through some pretty heavy stuff before he was even in

the arms. So on those on those aspects of his life,

I couldn't really relate to him. But there were other

things we talked about that I definitely you know, there

was a point where I felt like I really shouldn't

hang out with him anymore, just because I was afraid

certain things might come up.

Speaker 4: And you know, so he hit something in tom Yeah, so.

Speaker 3: You run your age, Yeah, I think so. Do you

know where he was from? Let me mentioned he came

from kind of a bad background.

Speaker 4: I think he was from Ohio.

Speaker 3: Was he still in when you got out?

Speaker 6: He got out either right after I did or before

slay before he.

Speaker 2: Didn't meanst ever hear what happened to him last I

talked to him, who was working for telemarketing place in Cleveland.

I think, just back in Ohio and stay out of

trouble or did he you know, I mean, he's not

gonna tell you.

Speaker 4: Yeah, pretty short of conversation over the phone.

Speaker 6: There was a time there was just for a minute

I was. I think it was shortly after I discovered

the Internet. I did some searches and found some people

that I had known in the military, kind of more

out of curiosity thing than to reconnect with him, and I.

Speaker 4: Called a few of them and we talked.

Speaker 6: But like I say, I was never really close with

any of them when I was in the army. So

and most of them it seemed like they had kind

of gone down him after they got out of the army.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 6: I think there were a couple that had dishonorable or

less than honorable discharges.

Speaker 4: And stuff like that.

Speaker 3: So do you know if his was I.

Speaker 4: Don't know if his was. I think his was honorable,

but I don't know for sure.

Speaker 3: Just more small talk kind of stuff.

Speaker 4: Nothing. Yeah, though when I talked to him, he was

neither of us were really social.

Speaker 6: It's not like I mean, I'm sure if he had

we'd ended up in the same state, we probably would

have stayed friends. But it wasn't like we were going

to have a long term friendship relationship. Yeah, long distance

time type of things.

Speaker 4: And I'm sure we asked you this before.

Speaker 8: It wasn't why the army instead of any of the

other armed forces.

Speaker 6: Was Yeah, I just I just did what I wanted

to do. That's what I had always read about, was

you know, like World War two, Vietnam army stories, guys

on the ground, right, that was the kind.

Speaker 4: Of thing that appealed to me. Backwards survival type stuff.

Speaker 3: Computers.

Speaker 2: You mentioned when computers first can out, you start doing

searches and just wanted to see what was up with

the military guys. When you would you talked before with

us about there were a couple of times that you

would go on your computer and do a search just

to see if a body had been found or I

don't know, Arsenal bankrubb or whatever it is. When you

were doing it, how would you how would you do that?

I mean, did you know names of everybody? Or would

you do just no Google search a town and or

how would you do it?

Speaker 4: I was, with the.

Speaker 6: Exception of the computer that you guys got from Kimberly's house,

I generally wouldn't do it on the home computers. I

had another computer that I did use for a while,

but for the most part it was a computer that I.

Speaker 4: Was planning on having around for a while. I would

never do re searches on it, which, as I did do,

were usually pretty generic.

Speaker 6: I would type in an area or a newspaper of

an area, and type in a keyword.

Speaker 4: I would never type in a specific.

Speaker 2: Name the name of the newspaper from the area, like

if I.

Speaker 4: Would do.

Speaker 6: Right, So, yeah, I would do a search of news

from an area I guess, and then pull up either

a newspaper or news channel online news, type in a

keyword of something, and just scroll down the different stories.

Speaker 4: So I found them when I was looking for.

Speaker 6: If I was doing it from an anonymous computer like

an airport or a library or something.

Speaker 13: I would do I would just type in what I

wanted right away.

Speaker 4: Bring it up.

Speaker 3: Did you know the names? Did you remember the names

of most of the people?

Speaker 4: Yeah, well, yeah, on the major things. Yeah, and so

I know we talked to you.

Speaker 8: You said that when you would did these burglars and stuff,

you would take jewelry and those kind of things. Did

you bring that kind of stuff back with you and

give it to Kimberly or I mean.

Speaker 4: How did you what did you do with it?

Speaker 2: No?

Speaker 6: I usually would bury it.

Speaker 8: Is that so that you could? I mean, did you

then dig it up later to sell it or just

possess it?

Speaker 4: It's just more to habits, you know, where it is

type of thing.

Speaker 8: And because you said you brought the stuff from the

Alito fire Home and oh.

Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, there was a little Yeah, there was a

little bit of jewelry down there.

Speaker 11: I guess.

Speaker 4: That wasn't really a blur burglary per se.

Speaker 2: That was just.

Speaker 4: I mean, I had found that house, but I was

running out of time, so I guess I just figured

take a look inside and and burn it.

Speaker 2: The thing.

Speaker 4: I don't know, but.

Speaker 8: And yeah, take a look at something. You said you

were in the in there a couple hours looking around.

Speaker 4: Yeah, but I had found it before. I mean I

I knew it was there before.

Speaker 6: I don't remember how many days before I found it,

but I knew it was there, and I knew it

was an empty house.

Speaker 2: You've talked before about how like I think even with

the couriers, you talked about how afterwards, emotionally.

Speaker 3: For you, there's a high for a while, and then

eventually you kind of come back down from that high.

Speaker 2: Using the couriers as an example, you came back to

Alaska on that high.

Speaker 3: Once the high goes away, is it just can you

just think.

Speaker 2: About what happened and that's enough to kind of just

relive it and work through it again. Or you told

us before you don't keep trophies. You don't do that

kind of stuff. But are are there things that you

do have or that you do keep that aren't really

necessarily trophies but that you use for that you use

as a reminder, you use just just to have because

you said you'd like to possess things, you like to

keep things.

Speaker 6: Yeah, that's not that I'd never It's not that I

didn't want to take trophies or have things.

Speaker 4: I was.

Speaker 6: Just concerned about having them. Sure, But so yeah, for

the most part, it's just all the stuff's just in

my head.

Speaker 3: But there's things you could take that wouldn't.

Speaker 2: I that I can think of that wouldn't be no

way that law enforcement would be really hard for us

to connect it back. I mean, were there times that

you did take things that you thought were safe or.

Speaker 6: For the most part, oh, the things I would have

been interested in taking wouldn't have been safe.

Speaker 4: Put it that way, okay.

Speaker 8: But but there are things you took that technically you

still have because they're in cashes. If there's guns or

something that you took from a burglary and got them

in a cash.

Speaker 4: Somewhere, then I'm just saying, technically you still possess them

and they're just not on you, you know, at your

house or on you or whatever.

Speaker 8: Yeah, especially Alito stuff, which what was different about that

bringing that stuff on?

Speaker 6: Actually I was supposed to have taken that back down

with me the second time.

Speaker 4: I just forgot because I was gonna.

Speaker 6: Stash it at the same time I did those guns,

and I never got around to the guns either, So

so I was, yeah, I was planning to stash in

there the first time and.

Speaker 4: Forget where you had them.

Speaker 6: Or no, I just didn't find good place and decided

I didn't want to. I didn't want to have them

that far south anyway, because I wasn't planning.

Speaker 5: On going back to Texas again. So I don't like Texas. No,

I wasn't a big fan of Texas. Really, I've been

in other states.

Speaker 4: I liked toeeople are too nosy.

Speaker 2: It too.

Speaker 13: Too many guns and two uh any gates and fences

and Texas definitely too many video cameras.

Speaker 8: On the one on the prostitutes. On prostitution you have,

was there a preference on gender? Always there?

Speaker 4: Did you have? Did you see male prostitutes?

Speaker 2: No?

Speaker 4: I well no kind of male prostitutes. We're gonna say,

we get really fuzzy thout your definite I forgot how

a semitic you could be half male?

Speaker 3: That's one way to say it.

Speaker 14: Uh are you thinking or are you just?

Speaker 4: Oh, you're acting on that? No, for the most part,

is female prostitute sounds like a yes to me? The

most part.

Speaker 6: Yeah, I don't really understood the whole male prostitute think.

Speaker 4: Well, I guess No, I I guess I do understand.

I it was never an issue.

Speaker 9: For him at all, Like, h, let's just smart for.

Speaker 3: That's did you ever do like the casual encounter thing

on you.

Speaker 4: Think you shock? You worried about shockuns? No, just what.

Speaker 11: It's just.

Speaker 2: No.

Speaker 4: I imagine you guys aren't shockable at this point.

Speaker 6: M No, it's just like male Like like I said,

I never really understood the one male prostitutes things that

I don't know if you're I guess if you're looking

for something really anonymous and you're concerned about getting caught

with a man, or if you're a really ugly guy,

I guess you might have to pay another guy to.

Speaker 4: Have sex with you.

Speaker 6: But for the most part, it's not that hard on

you guy to hook up with pretty casually, whereas.

Speaker 4: If you have specific.

Speaker 6: Ideas in mind and you want a woman you.

Speaker 4: Have to pay for it. It's just fine. It's just

the way it is.

Speaker 2: Though, did you say the whole crugslist catual e counter thing?

Is that something that you ever did? You mentioned in

the casual book up?

Speaker 4: No, well, no, I never really did that. Any other

questions for us.

Speaker 2: Concerns well, other than the obvious one that no, we

don't have an answer for. As we continue to go

through stuff the computers and to see other stuff kind

of like today, just things come up that we don't.

Speaker 3: Have all the answers for.

Speaker 10: Is it's alright if we just do this kind.

Speaker 2: Of meeting for that kind of stuff. Yeah, kind of

the little the little key, not.

Speaker 10: None of the high pressure stuff.

Speaker 4: This works, Yeah, what's high pressure?

Speaker 3: Maybe it's a bad choice to words.

Speaker 4: No, it's just funny whatever. Yeah whatever, I don't really know.

Speaker 3: What. But not getting into all the stuff.

Speaker 10: I mean, like when we met the other day, it was.

Speaker 6: Oh, you're you're talking about wanting specific names and dates.

Speaker 3: Yeah, I will take it if you're willing to give

it to us.

Speaker 4: We know what I'm saying too.

Speaker 5: M h.

Speaker 4: Okay, I think we don't. If you don't have anything else,

we don't get ready to take you back home. Mhmm,

you'd be skippy. M.