← Back to Podcast/George Washington Surrenders His Sword
Episode Transcript

George Washington Surrenders His Sword

Why did George Washington willingly give up power at the end of the Revolutionary War? Colleen Shogan talks with Douglas Bradburn to explore the man who would not be king, Washington’s extraordinary copy of the Constitution, and the formative moments that shaped the nation’s first president.

Featuring Douglas Bradburn, Ph.D., President and CEO of George Washington’s Mount Vernon. 

Read President George W. Bush’s essay on George Washington at Inpursuit.org. 

INFO:

Tell us who inspires you: https://www.inpursuit.org/join

Please leave a rating and review on Apple, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. It helps other listeners find the show

Watch all episodes on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@InPursuitUSA 

Hosted by Colleen Shogan, Ph.D. Written and Produced by Jim Ambuske, Ph.D. Audio mixing by Curt Dahl of CD Squared. Music from Music Bed. Production Services by Stand Together. In Pursuit is a podcast by More Perfect

SOCIAL:

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/p/In-Pursuit-USA-61580409336588/ 

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/inpursuitusa/

TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@inpursuitusa 

BlueSkye: https://bsky.app/profile/inpursuitusa.bsky.social 

X: https://x.com/InPursuitUSA



Doug Bradburn: He warned Americans about coming to see

each other as aliens, coming to see each other as not Americans,

because you have different political beliefs, the idea that

parties would get so hot and so angry that they could lead to a

lack of a functioning republic.

Colleen Shogan: Just before noon on December 23, 1783, General

George Washington entered the old Maryland State House where

the Continental Congress was waiting for him. The Congressman

did not rise when Washington walked into the room, nor did

they remove their hats, as they would have done in the presence

of King George the Third. They were no longer subjects of the

British crown. They were now citizens of a new republic, and

Washington was a man who would not be king. Men and women

squeezed into the galleries to witness this moment. They sat in

silence as they watched Washington resign his commission

as Commander in Chief of the Continental Army, and then after

bowing to Congress and bidding his farewells, George

Washington, now a private citizen, went home. As today's

guest Doug Bradburn argues, Washington set a precedent for

those in power to follow. So what might we learn from

Washington's willingness to give up power? I'm Colleen Shogan,

and this is In Pursuit a podcast that explores lessons from

America's past to rate the history of America's future.

Episode One, "George Washington Surrenders His Sword." Doug

Bradburn, welcome to In Pursuit.

Doug Bradburn: I'm delighted to be here. Colleen, thanks for

having me.

Colleen Shogan: Well, we're here to talk about George Washington

today. So let's start at the beginning. In the early parts of

his life, George Washington grew up with a deep sense of

insecurity. Why was he insecure as a young person?

Doug Bradburn: That's an interesting way to put it. I

mean, I don't know if he was more insecure than any young man

who's worried about his future has those anxieties and tries to

fit in, but he had some challenges. His father died when

he was 11 years old, and that kind of weakens your ability to

plot out your life. He didn't, because of the death of his

father, get a formal education. So he wants to be a gentleman in

18th century Virginia. With that comes a certain sense that

you're educated, you know how to behave the right way. And both

of his older half brothers had had that education. So he would

have seen that as a weakness. And in fact, we know throughout

his life, he always thought his education was wanting, and we

could talk a little about that maybe more, but he was ambitious

too, and I think that ambition was really driving him to try to

make a name for himself despite these challenges. So how anxious

he was relative to any young man with who doesn't know what's to

come, I don't know, but he certainly had some insecurities.

Colleen Shogan: George Washington, as you said, his

father died when he was quite young. His mother, Mary ball

Washington, was influential in his life. Tell us about her.

Doug Bradburn: Yeah, I think she's an extraordinary figure

and hard to get at. I mean, a lot of women in the 18th

century, as you know, well, it's hard to get at them unless they

left a lot of letters behind, and Mary Ball did not leave us a

lot. It's led to a lot of speculation about what her

relationship with George Washington was over the time,

but it's clear to me that she was a woman of some grit. She

had some strength. Typically, a woman of her class would have

remarried. She had a lot of property to manage. She was very

difficult to do that in the 18th century environment. But she did

it on her own. She managed, you know, few 1000 acres a number of

enslaved people raised George Washington a number of children.

Washington was her eldest son. He was only 11 years old, and so

she had to serve as regent to his property. And I think she

had a big impact on his reading. I think she read a lot to him,

particularly from the Bible, from different spiritual

lessons, but it's hard to know exactly what their relationship

is. There's like three letters that exist, and I don't think

people want their relationship to their kids to be known by

three letters that randomly survive, some of which are not

that flattering towards her. It's not clear that she was a

big supporter of the American Revolution. It looks like she

had a lot of loyalist tendencies.

Colleen Shogan: That's interesting. Even when George

Washington is the general.

Doug Bradburn: Yeah, you know, it's sort of like, you know,

she's, she's critical of her son, like, you know, you're not

really doing it right, you know? And he's frustrated by her,

because there's times when she's basically impoverished or

threatened with poverty during the war, she reaches out for a

gift from the Commonwealth of Virginia. This embarrasses him.

He's the commander in chief of the army at the time, and he's

like, we will supply you. Mother, stop asking for help. He

encourages her not to come live at Mount Vernon at one point in

her life. He says, it's like a well, resorted tavern, Mom, you

wouldn't like it. You'd have to get dressed every night. We have

dinners every night with all these random people. You know

you'd. Be on a stage. So those kind of letters convinced some

historians that they didn't have a good relationship. But in

fact, she's critical to him, I think. And it's interesting the

way historians have treated her over American history in the

19th century, she's the greatest example of womanhood because

Colleen Shogan: she raised public motherhood, republican

Doug Bradburn: mother, she raised the greatest citizen of

America. So the women are going to raise the male citizens,

we're going to be in the public sphere. And so Mary Washington

was this saintly woman. It's nice that she had the name Mary

as well, so the Protestant Americans could have their own

Mary to worship. The first national memorial to a woman was

to Mary ball Washington, a monument in Fredericksburg with

an obelisk. The whole deal. In the early 20th century, she

became this uneducated shrew that Washington hated. Has a

little bit to do with the way Freud talked about men who were

raised by strong mothers made them not quite manly enough, and

so that kind of dominates some of the historiography

interpretations in the 20th century, and people point much

more towards Lawrence's older half brother, as the father

figure in his life. But more recently, really, in the last 15

years, have been a number of great new books on Mary ball

Washington, which really make her a much more fully fledged

human being, clearly a strong woman. And George Washington

didn't suffer fools. And I think he gets that from his mother.

It's clear she didn't suffer fools either.

Colleen Shogan: You mentioned that

of formal education, one thing we know he did do was copy these

Rules of Civility and Decent Behavior. George Bush, who has

written the essay on George Washington for in pursuit,

writes about this in his essay. So tell us about the Rules of

Civility. How did Washington come across them, what were they

and how were they influential as part of his education.

Doug Bradburn: The Rules of Civility that Washington copied

out when he was probably around the age 14 to 15 years old, are

110 rules that are different aphorisms about how to behave.

So never show anything to your friends that may have fright

them, and don't wipe your sleeve on your mouth at the table.

Partly, they are manner books. Also, they have some moral

implications to them as well. They also are setting up a young

man of how to live in a hierarchical society. So bow to

your betters. You make way on the street, to the people that

are higher class than you, take your hat off, that sort of

thing. So they are, in essence a rule book of how to show that

you know how to behave. Now, where did they come from? We

know that the original lists are very similar to lists that were

produced earlier in European manners and literature. So these

date to a Jesuit book from the 16th century. How did Washington

get his version? It looks like probably a tutor that he would

have had along the way had had him copy these out. But I think

what's telling about them for him is he kept these with his

papers the rest of his life. And actually, the book that he

copied these out in, he also copied out, you know,

mathematical problems that he was solving. He copied out

examples of different types of contracts that he would need as

a businessman in Virginia. So a useful book for him that showed

him not only how to behave, but how to do business in the world

that he was trying to enter into. And finally, I'll say that

you know these rules, which are, you know they're rules about how

to behave in a polite way, but they're also tinctured with this

very strong sense of ethics throughout them, that you want

to behave in a way that represents your reputation at

the highest level. You know, don't dress for flattery, don't

follow the latest fashions, don't surround yourself by

fools. These are things that actually he's going to go on to

write to his step grandchildren and nephews and nieces when

they're young, basically his own version of these roles. So I do

think they had an impact on him and the way he thought about how

to behave in this very regulated world that he's entering into.

Colleen Shogan: As Washington becomes a young adult, he's

interested in a career in the military. Why do you think he

gravitates towards military service?

Doug Bradburn: That's a great question. We know little exactly

about his innermost thinking when he's young, but it's clear

his brother had a military career. He actually had a

commission from the King. Had served in what's known as the

War of Jenkins Ear, which was the British Empire fight against

the Spanish Empire, really over control of the Caribbean and

access to their markets. And so his brother, Lawrence

Washington, who's about 13 years older than George Washington,

half brother, goes on this expedition, and he serves with a

guy named Edward Vernon, and comes back to Virginia and names

his estate after Sir Edward Vernon, and it becomes Mount

Vernon today. So that's an interesting note. So Lawrence

Washington had this role in the Virginia colony as the Adjutant

General of Virginia militia, and that was a role that put him in

a place where he was kind of the leading military figure in the

colony, involved in military decisions, and so encouraged his

brother George to follow in those footsteps. And I think it

was appealing to George Washington as well. On the other

hand, Lawrence also recommended that George Washington become a

midshipman in. The British navy, which would have changed history

if he did that. And it was his mother, Mary Ball Washington,

who asking her uncle, who lived in England, if this was a good

idea. And he said, You'd better be apprenticed to a tinker than

serve in the Royal Navy. And so she stopped George Washington

from running off to sea as so many young men did in the 18th

century, whose prospects were limited. I mean, I think that's

a critical thing to understand about George Washington. He

didn't have a huge estate that he controlled. The prospects for

getting more was difficult, unless he could, could find a

way to do that. And so through Lawrence, and through Lawrence's

father in law William Fairfax, and also Thomas Lord Fairfax,

they really helped George Washington see a path for

himself become a surveyor first and then take opportunities as

military opportunities opened up.

Colleen Shogan: So the military opportunities do open up, and

George Washington finds himself actually very close to where I

grew up in southwestern Pennsylvania in 1754 so tell us

about the stories of Fort Necessity and jimmonville Glen,

and what kind of hard lessons does Washington actually learn

that summer?

Doug Bradburn: It's a great question because it's

astonishing to people who don't know George Washington's story

well, to know he launched the first shots that launched the

Seven Years War of the French and

Colleen Shogan: Indians. Now, do we know that that?

Doug Bradburn: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think the latest

scholarship says that he he Well, certainly he was in

command when the first shots were shot, and it's possible

that he himself was actually shooting when those first shots

went off. But at any rate, the colony of Virginia was obsessed

with getting control of the Ohio Valley, because that was where

the future fortunes would be made. The land there was

fertile. It was claimed by Virginia going back to their

earliest charters, and it wanted to control. But it was

contested. First of all, the French had claims to it, pretty

extraordinary claims as well, but it was actually controlled

by Native Americans. This is Indian country, but also claimed

by the Iroquois Confederation, who doesn't really live there

either. So you have these three competing polities, Iroquois,

the Haudenosaunee, and then you have the French, and then you

have the British in Virginia reaching into that area. And you

probably had Pennsylvania claims as well. But at any rate, George

Washington brings word, actually, as an envoy to that

region, to the colony in Williamsburg, that the French

were moving into the valley, and Williamsburg mobilizes this

troop of men, the Virginia provincial regiment to go seize

that area before the French can get there. So Washington is

marching out towards what's now Pittsburgh, towards what with

the time was the Forks of the Ohio and the Allegheny rivers,

and he has Native American allies with him. He runs into a

scouting group, or some kind of group coming from the French at

Jumonville Glen. It's called Jumonville Glen because the

young officer leading the French is Jumonville, and they end up

having a skirmish. In fact, it's more like an ambush, where the

Virginians and their Indian allies ambush Jumonville and his

French soldiers and essentially killed most of them. It's a

bloody battle. It's a victory from George Washington's sense,

in the sense that they defeat these French, they take some

prisoners, but it's also a terrible learning lesson for

Washington, because he can't control his native American

allies. They end up killing some of the captives, which was not

what the Virginian was there to do, including brutally,

Jumonville, who's murdered,

Colleen Shogan: who has some connections.

Doug Bradburn: It turns out, exactly who's connected,

absolutely, his brother is in command of a much larger group.

And this is an interesting moment, because it leads

directly to Fort Necessity, which we should talk about, but

I'll say quickly about Jumonville 's Glen. You know,

George Washington writes a letter to his brother during

that skirmish in which he says, I heard the bullets whistle. And

let me tell you, there's something charming in the sound

now famously, that letter, it gets circulated in England. And

fact, George the second, having heard of it, says, If this young

officer had heard more bullets whistle, he wouldn't think

they're so charming. And that's an important story, because

George Washington still at jamalville school, and you get

the you know, he's 21 years old. He's a young man. He still has a

romantic idea about war. He sees it as about glory, adventure,

honor for himself and opportunity for himself. And

that's something that will change over the course of a

lifetime that becomes dedicated to military service. And that

first lesson comesat Fort Necessity.

Colleen Shogan: Yeah. What happens at Fort Necessity? Tell

us about that.

Doug Bradburn: Yeah. So there is Washington marching out there in

Pennsylvania defeats Jumonville gets word that a larger French

group are coming at him. He tries to retreat and finds a

patch of ground on great Meadows Pennsylvania, and he decides to

build a little fort. He called Fort Necessity because he knows

it's not a great place. In fact, it's a terrible place. It's sort

of a low portion of a piece of ground. It can be attacked from

all sides, and in fact, it could be shot at from the woods, so

enemy can be undercover and attacking into this fort so

built quickly as a way to protect his troops, the Native

Americans he's with. Once he gets surrounded by the French

and their native allies, they flee because. They know this is

untenable. And he gets out of there. And then there's a battle

in Washington, you know, they get rained on the whole time,

and it's a disaster. He loses a lot of men. Ultimately has to

surrender, loses his army, essentially. And in that

surrender, he doesn't speak French, and he uses a

translator, and he admits to assassinating poor Jumonville in

the French, which is going to go on and become important later,

as the French are trying to argue that the British are

savages and out of control, and they started this war. But for

his own purposes, it's remarkable that Washington has a

later career, because it's a disaster, a kind of disaster he

would never have again. But also, I think the reality of

soldiering in the 18th century that really comes to roost for

him there that no amount of valor is going to beat good

tactical and strategic approaches. It really is a

learning episode for him.

Colleen Shogan: How does the lessons that he learns in 1754,

and beyond? How does that affect his leadership of the

Continental Army during the Revolutionary War?

Doug Bradburn: First of all, he never loses an army in the

American Revolutionary War. And he makes some crazy escapes. As

we know, he escapes in the face of the British in Long Island.

And he's very good at retreating, you know, without

voting to lose, yeah. So don't lose your army. It's one big

thing. But the other thing you know, in the aftermath of Fort

Necessity, he goes on to have a long career in the French and

Indian War, multiple years training the Virginia regiment

defending the frontier, building up the kind of Officer Corps and

training of the soldiers that he needed, constantly getting the

supply in place. So one of the things he's really advocating

for is when he becomes General of the United States Army for

the first time, preparation, practice, training, reading, it

takes more than the title to make the officer. You need to

know your business. You know this isn't just like, Oh, I'm in

charge now and I'm out here doing things. You actually have

to know how to manage an army in the field and take care of your

logistics, take care of your men, be concerned about their

training, their discipline. And that's a critical thing he does,

because he builds the American army, its culture and character

from scratch when he becomes the commander in chief in 1775.

Colleen Shogan: We fast forward into 1783 and Washington, after

the Revolutionary War has concluded and Washington enters

Annapolis and is going to resign his commission as the general of

the Continental Army. Tell what happens at Annapolis and

also why is this considered one of the most important moments in

Doug Bradburn: The surrender of his commission, the retirement

of his sword after the end of the American Revolutionary War

was considered one of the greatest acts of the age, and it

was something that he'd been promising to do since the very

beginning, when he took his commission, he said, I will give

American history?

this back when the job is done. He thought the job would be

done, I think, a lot longer than earlier years. But you know, it

is remarkable, because this does not happen military leaders who

win great victories in the European context are rewarded,

they certainly don't go back home and into retirement. His

whole idea was he would never be involved in public service or

take public gratitude, and certainly wouldn't take control

of this new country as a military dictator, which has

happened so many times in world history, but before and after

him. I mean in the English context, at the end of the

English Civil War, Oliver Cromwell marches into Parliament

and says, "You have sat too long here," and rules with his army

for the next 10 years as the Lord Protector. I mean,

overthrows this parliamentary regime. And that was the English

tradition. And then, of course, we see what Napoleon does at the

end of the French Revolution, declaring himself Emperor. Other

revolutionary leaders, like Stalin, goes on to become

dictators. We see it in the Castros. There's so many others

revolutionary leaders who become military dictators because they

feel like they're the only ones who can secure the revolution.

Washington rejects all that, and in doing so, he's reenacting

this incredible story from ancient times of virtuous Roman

generals in the Roman Republic who would step out from their

farm save the Republic, and then go back to the plow. And that's

why George Washington is called Cincinnatus, who's this Roman

figure basically partly mythical, partly real. And I

think one of the telling stories that of this is George the

third's reaction his great enemy, who asked Benjamin West,

who was a painter, painting Queen Charlotte, at the time,

American born, you know, "What will Mr. Washington do if the

United States gained their independency?" And he says,

"Well, I think he's going to retire to a private situation,

Your Highness." And the king says, "if he does that, he'll be

the greatest man of the age." So Washington. When he shows up in

Annapolis, everybody knew what he was going to do. It had been

reported in the papers. He's on his way to Annapolis where he

will return his commission and become like Cincinnatus. It's in

the news. So it's an incredible event. When he gets there,

everybody's nervous. The Congress is nervous. They stay

seated when he comes in, rather. Understanding to show the

civilian authority over military rule. He takes off his hat, he

delivers a short speech and returns his commission, and

after that, he rides 60 miles and gets back to Mount Vernon on

Christmas Eve, 1783. It's a remarkable thing, and it's the

first story Americans would tell about themselves as to what

makes us different. Americans have often thought of ourselves

as an exceptional people and why the American system is

different. The first story that we told that made us distinct

from European monarchies is that George Washington resigned. He

wouldn't become a king. We would have a country based on the rule

of law and not on men.

Colleen Shogan: It's one of the most interesting lessons in

history that Washington actually, by rejecting power,

gains more authority and legitimacy.

Doug Bradburn: It's extraordinary, right? It's this

idea of walking away from power makes it more powerful than

ever, and what he gains is this very valuable commodity that

politicians crave, which is trust, the trust of the people

in a country that's going to be based on popular opinion, trust

is one of the most valuable things that politicians should

be gathering. And in your study of all these precedents you're

going to see, I think this question of trust, where they

get it, and how they marshal it, and where they lose it. In this

case, Washington gains incredible trust. Because one

other way to show that you can be trusted with power than by,

you know, giving up power that you had. And so that's going to

be critical to him when he helps rally the nation back to reform

the Articles of Confederation, to ultimately write a new

constitution and get it ratified. Certainly one of the

greatest political achievements in American history, to put a

whole new government into place without a shot being fired,

without blood being spilled. That completely overthrows the

national federal regime, a regime that had actually won the

war. The new constitution is really remarkable. It never

could have happened in Philadelphia in 1787 without

George Washington's presence there, because of how much he

was trusted. And Americans don't trust a lot of people. They

worry about conspiracies. They worry about ulterior motives.

But without Washington in Philadelphia, that would have

been very difficult. And then the ratification itself only was

guaranteed because George Washington put his imprimatur on

it, and then ultimately, because he was going to be the first

president. So we created this new powerful office, or

potentially powerful office. Why will it be okay? Well, because

George Washington will be the first.

Colleen Shogan: Certainly, at the National Archives, there are

notes from the Constitutional Convention and George

Washington's annotation as that debate is ongoing in front of

him. He doesn't say very much during the convention, but is

annotating some of the notes along the way. But at Mount

Vernon, you have an extraordinary document as well

from a little later in 1789 after he becomes president. Tell

us about that document.

Doug Bradburn: Well, this is a book which we own that we call

the Acts of Congress for short. But what it is is all the laws

passed by the first session of Congress under the Constitution.

They meet in March of 1789 Washington is inaugurated

President in April of 1789, their session, that first

session, lasts from March to September. So that session of

Congress takes the Constitution and turns it into a working

government. They pass the first lighthouse bills, they pass the

first customs laws, the first tariffs right. They create the

judiciary. They create the executive branch. And then, of

course, at the end of that session, they pass the

resolutions that are ultimately going to become known as the

Bill of Rights. Washington signs all these things. He's president

at the time. And the Congress, they print, they all these laws.

They publish them. They give this book to George Washington.

So we have his actual copy of all those laws. But what it has

in the front of it is a copy of the Constitution. And when he's

sitting down in January of 1790 to give the first State of the

Union address, we think of President, state of the address.

He gives the first he rereads the Constitution, and he rereads

that whole session to see what they did, and he marks up the

Constitution in the margins, which is incredible, because he

was at the Constitution convention, he's been president

for 10 months, but here he is reading it again to make sure

that he's doing what he's supposed to be doing. And so in

those areas of the Constitution, in Article One, where the

legislative branch has to mix powers with the executive

branch, he puts little brackets in the margins that say

"President," like the veto power, President. Article Two,

all about the presidential power. He writes "President"

right next to the top. It gets down where it says President

Powers. He writes "President Powers," and then it says the

next one, the laws shall be faithfully executed, he writes

"required" so at an extraordinary moment, because

this is a man using a highlighter, but this is a mind

in focus, not a commentary on the Constitution, but really

making sure that he knows what his job is, the creating the

presidency is the first time doing it. It's really a

remarkable piece that we were able to acquire at Mount Vernon,

and I think it's an incredible way to look at Washington the leader.

Colleen Shogan: Do you think he understood the precedents that

he was setting would last? I mean, they would have these ramifications.

Doug Bradburn: I guarantee it. He wrote about that many times,

that the challenges they were facing was making precedence for

the ages, not just for their time and particularly actually,

writes an incredible letter to Catherine Macaulay, great

English historian, the same day he's writing in this book on

January 9, 1790, writes an incredible editor in which he

says, "I walk on untrodden ground. Everything I do is

subject to two interpretations," which every president complains

about. But he also writes, "everything I do is making a

precedent." that sense that he is not just trying to execute

the laws passed by Congress, but every aspect of this role would

have ramifications in the extreme. And he writes great

letters in which he asks for advice. In them, saying, "We

have to be very careful, because the things we're creating now

will magnify in the future." He's really looking at the

generational news cycle, not the 24 hour news cycle, or the 15

minute news cycle, which is what we have in 2026 and I think

we're the beneficiaries of that, because when you are looking at

the longer term, you're able to find compromises. You're able to

use prudence and not act sometimes. You're able to be

firm when you think is very critical, but it allows you

perspective, I think, and I'd love to see more leaders

thinking about the longer term, and not the next election cycle.

Colleen Shogan: Did Washington, at the end of his life, did he

have any sources of regret?

Doug Bradburn: He was a slave owner his whole life, and we

know that he writes that, you know, he has one unavoidable

source of regret when he's referring to slavery. Before the

American Revolution, George Washington doesn't express any

real concern about slavery as the moral institution. He was

frustrated with some of the economics of slavery in the

context of the way the British Empire worked, but it really had

to do more with the tobacco trade. Specifically, after the

war, his attitude is clearly different after the war in the

1780s you know, you do see him expressing concerns about

slavery, both economically and as a moral institution. He

writes by the 1780s that he wants it ended in Virginia, but

he thinks it needs to be ended by legislation. In this case,

he's referencing the Commonwealth of Virginia. He

thinks that's the way to orderly end slavery in Virginia, kind of

like the way Pennsylvania had with a gradual Manumission bill.

And so these states in north of Virginia are starting to try to

figure out ways to end slavery gradually. He thinks that's what

should happen and will happen in Virginia. The Constitution

changes the political dynamic, because the Constitution becomes

a compromise with slave states and these rising non slave

states, and as President of the United States, he fears that he

can't himself do inaction freeing slaves that would create

a political maelstrom at a time when the union was very fragile.

That's my sense of it, at least. But it's clear by 1793 he's

trying to figure out how to end slavery at Mount Vernon. He's

got these schemes that never pan out. It's clear one of his major

challenges is the fact that the people enslaved at Mount Vernon,

some of them are owned legally by him, some of them are owned

by the estate of Martha Washington, so not even by

Martha Washington, but her children and her heirs because

the estate of her former husband, that's the law, George

Washington can't do anything about that property, but he

starts trying to negotiate with some of those heirs in 1796 when

he's leaving the presidency, and that never works out. So

ultimately, he does free the people he owns at Mount Vernon

in his will, but he's not able to free the ones owned by Martha

Washington's estate. And the tragedy there, of course, is

that many of those families had intermarried. There's a human

cost beyond the great tragedy of slavery itself. And so I think

that's a critical aspect of Washington's. You know, living

in a world where you couldn't figure out a route to get out of

a system, to us, it looks like perhaps a moral cowardice, but

we live in the 21st Century in very different constraints upon

us. I think it speaks to the limit of even the greatest

political leaders in this country to achieve all the

things that they thought needed to be achieved.

Colleen Shogan: And one of the richest and wealthiest men in

the young United States still isn't able to get out from under

the institution or structure that slavery's power,

Doug Bradburn: That's right. And actually a lot of his wealth was

actually an enslaved people, and certainly in land as well, he

wasn't able to find a way. But yeah, that was certainly a

regret to him, and an expressed regret to him, a critical one.

But I do think you know, his moral leadership in the 18th

century context was important in the way Americans rethought what

political leadership should be in our context. I think his

advocacy for religious freedom and tolerance across the board

is not as well known. His letter to the Touro synagogue, you

know, an aspirational idea that we all should have freedom of

conscience and be able to worship as we please. Before the

First Amendment, before that, all the establishments have been

broken in the States, a really revolutionary idea about what

the American Republic could stand for when it came to

personal liberty, and something that I think has played out.

Colleen Shogan: Our last question, which might be a hard

one, particularly for George Washington. Washington, as you

know, in pursuit is trying to locate and identify relevant

lessons about our past for our present situation and our

future. What can we learn from George Washington? And that

might be hard to narrow down, given everything that we've

talked about.

Doug Bradburn: Well, true, and I can go on and on, so I'll try to

be succinct. First of all, he gave us advice in his farewell

address that we should be listening to. So in that address

to the American people, he warned Americans about coming to

see each other as aliens, coming to see each other as not

Americans, because you have different political beliefs, the

idea that parties would get so hot and so angry that they could

lead to a lack of a functioning Republic, where you could have

the administration clogged and not actually governing, where

people would start to identify each other as enemies to the

project. He saw that in his own cabinet. He saw it in his own

lifetime. So he wouldn't be surprised that what he sees

throughout American history, but it is a lesson we could learn

from. I would say beyond that for leaders. Look, I mean, he

led with humility, which is a hard value to lead from, but

it's a recognition that you have to listen. You have to listen to

other people who might know more than you about a subject,

particularly when you have the power to make decisions that can

lead to life and death that can affect people's lives. You need

to be willing to recognize that you might not have the right

answer. It's actually a very powerful way to lead from

because if you say in the opening, this is very hard, but

we'll do our best and we'll try to get it done. Then if it

fails, you can say, I said it was going to be really hard. I

mean, that's when he took his commission in the Revolutionary

War, he's like, I don't think I can do this, but I'll give it my

you know,

Colleen Shogan: Washington always kind of did that though.

I mean, he had kind of a way of doing that, exactly you do that,

Doug Bradburn: and then he got it done. But I think you don't

have to be the smartest person in the room. You're not supposed

to be you're the leader, you're the ones that bring people

together. And I think, you know, his insecurity about his own

education, his failures, his early military failures, his

recognition that he had sent men to their death in war. These are

humbling experiences, and gave him a lot of strength as a

leader, to listen to think about the long term, you know, and to

recognize that sometimes you have to conciliate with people

that don't agree with you. So I would want to see our leaders

taking that lesson to heart, the human beings have not changed in

250 years, so those lessons of leading people in this system, I

think, still matter.

Colleen Shogan: Doug Bradburn, thank you for joining us on In

Pursuit.

Doug Bradburn: I'm delighted to be here. Thank you, Colleen.

Colleen Shogan: To read President George Bush's essay on

George Washington and to enjoy other great In Pursuit essays

and podcasts. Visit inpursuit.org. In Pursuit with

Colleen Shogun is a podcast by More Perfect. The series is

written and produced by Jim Ambuske. Our theme music is

Kleos, by Charlie Ryan, audio mixing by Curt Dahl of CD

squared. Please rate and review the show on your favorite

podcast app and tell us which Americans inspire you.

This transcript was automatically generated by the podcast creator and may contain errors. Aggregated via the PodcastIndex API.