Why Great Leaders Build Cultures That Thrive Without Them (ft. Tom Kereszti)

What happens to your organization when the leader leaves the room? Leadership isn't measured by how many people depend on you. It's measured by how many people you've prepared to succeed without you. On INsights & Straight Talk, host Rodd Duff and Producer Barbie welcome Thomas Kereszti, global business executive, leadership mentor, and author of Culture Work: The 12 Pillars of Leadership Multiplication. Drawing on more than 25 years of international leadership experience, Tom explores how trust, accountability, empowerment, and organizational culture determine whether businesses thrive or struggle. From Fortune 500 boardrooms to Main Street businesses and communities across Rural America, this real conversation examines leadership under pressure, building stronger teams, and developing people who can think independently. Discover why servant leadership and communication are essential to building something real—and why the greatest leadership legacy may be the people who no longer need your direction.

This has been an experience of amazement to me.

Before you leave, if you'd like to watch another

one of the podcasts, click the first link in

the description. We love having you here and

we appreciate all your support. And with that,

producer Barbie and I are out. Welcome everybody

to Insights and Straight Talk. I am Rod Duff

and I want to I want to start with a question

that I think applies, whether you're running

a billion dollar corporation, a small business

on Main Street, managing five people, raising

a family, or trying to build something in your

community. What happens when you are not there?

Stay with me on this. Because we talk an awful

lot about leadership as though Leadership is

measured by what happens when a leader walks

into it. Maybe we got that a little backwards.

Maybe the greatest measure of leadership is what

happens when people walk out of it. Do people

actually know what to do? Do they trust one another?

Can they make decisions? Can they disagree without...

destroying relationships. Can somebody else step

forward and lead? Or has everything just become

dependent on one person? That brings us to today's

guest, Tom Karitsky. He has spent more than 25

years in Fortune 500 CCs with companies including

Colgate -Palmolive, Wreck -It, Bichner, Phillips

Electronics, and Strauss Group. He's led businesses,

turnarounds, mergers, startups, and cultural

transformations across six continents. Now that

one, that's a little message. I want you just

to hold on to that while we go through the rest

of the message. He's led a $400 million global

company. directed a billion dollar merger and

managed 100 million dollar businesses. But you

know what? Those numbers weren't what really

interested me most today. Today, what interests

me is what Tom learned about people. Because

whether you're in Hungary, Mexico, Brazil, Israel,

San Diego, California, with producer Barbie,

or right here in Mangam, Oklahoma with me. Organizations

ultimately rise and fall on human beings. Trust,

communication, accountability, purpose, culture.

And Tom has taken some of those lessons and turned

them into two books, including his newest, Culture

Work. the 12 pillars of leadership multiplication.

God, I love that phrase. Leadership multiplication.

Because leadership isn't supposed to stop with

you. If you're the smartest person in every meeting,

if nobody can make a decision without giving

you a call, and if everything falls apart, especially

if everything falls apart when you take a vacation,

Maybe you built yourself a job, but you haven't

actually built an organization, but have you?

Let me ask you, but have you actually built an

organization? And for the small business owners

and entrepreneurs watching us today, I especially

want you to stay with us. Because when we say

C -suite, it's easy to think this conversation

belongs. somewhere in the skyscraper. I don't

think it does. If you've got three employees

and you're trying to figure out why one of them

is leaving, this conversation is for you. If

you're trying to hand a business over to the

next generation, it's for you. If you're leading

volunteers, serving your community, coaching

young people, or trying to build something that

will still matter after you're gone, yeah, it's

free of you. So today we're gonna talk about

what culture, why, sorry about that, how, why

culture can eat strategy for breakfast, why good

employees leave, why some leaders... accidentally

create dependence instead of leadership. And

what Tom learned about human beings by leading

them around the world. There it is. And underneath

all of it is is one one question. Are you building

something that needs you or are you building

something that can outlast Tom. I wanna welcome

you to Insights and Straight Talk and what I

wanna tell you is let's have a conversation.

How you doing, brother? Wow, we've got a friend.

Oh my goodness, Rod. That was uh that was a very

lengthy introduction and uh I have a lot to live

up to because you know, you you kind of made

me this uh all these wonderful caveats about

what I did and where I work but uh Yeah, I got

a lot to live up to now Well, I think I think

that's gonna be an easy thing to do I I appreciate

your your wording and your your your reprote

But I'm very excited about this conversation.

I know a lot about it I've got a lot of experience

in it and you Obviously have a lot of experience

in it and your book is your second book. We'll

get into each each Well more the second one,

but we'll talk about that obviously as well Actually,

one of the people from my own, or I come from

a machinery business organization, long story

about my journey to come here today, but after

650 plus conversations, these kinds are the ones

that really excite me because we always do our

research. We kind of check some things out, take

a look, and your story, your journey is something

that's right in the wheelhouse of what we do.

what we talk about every day with our guests,

I mean, our community. We've got about 162, 163,

we've got still people coming in. And one person,

hey, Matt Walker. So he used to be a customer

of mine back in the machinery days. That's what

all that was about. So we're here talking to

you today, Matt, how you doing? We're here talking

to you today about your new book and the... the

stories, the truths, the ways to look at... I

love doing this show because even if we're talking

about similar discussions or conversations, it's

like we're looking in the same house through

different windows. And every once in a while,

one comes up that's so very, not refreshing,

but interesting in that approach. and especially

when it's supported by such foundation as the

lived experience that you have. So let's start

back at the journey. What was the inflection

point? Where was the, you know, as people are

starting to come in and jumping in a little early

on the questions to be honest with you, but usually

I like to get, you know, five, 10, you know,

15 minutes or so. We are a little, folks, we

are crunched on time. So questions earlier. I

was whining a little earlier. It was a little

back -to -back situation that happened that it

wasn't supposed to. So we're really tight on

time, and I love these conversations and want

them to be meaningful and successful. Questions

early and often, please. But that's Tom. So how

do we set this up? What started you on your journey

to bring it in? Some people have gone all the

way back to birth. I don't know, maybe you only

wanna go back to the first book or so, but whatever

that is, what brought you on this journey that

we're here now having a conversation today? My

goodness, well, that's a loaded question. I'm

not gonna go back to birth because that would

be boring, but I'm looking at your background

and I see this beautiful piano. Yes. And I'm

going through - There's another one over here.

There you go. I'm going through a little crisis

right now because - When I was stationed in Budapest

in in the 19 early 1990s what service Well for

business But I had an opportunity I met a friend

of mine and he was a Conductor for an orchestra

and he says Tom you want to buy Steinway And

I said, well sure way, you know, my kids are

playing piano at the time. So I didn't think

about buying a sound wave, but I got this great

deal on a 1912 model O. And it's actually because

it was in Budapest. It was made in Hamburg, not

in New York. So I've been carrying this model

O around with me for the last, I guess, 30 years.

About once every three or four years, that thing

gets picked up by a piano mover and gets moved.

And when I bought it back in 1994 or something

like that, I bought it restored. The guys restored

it that I bought it from. And now it's in such,

I wouldn't say dire shape, but cosmetically,

it really needs a refresher. So I just started

reaching out and trying to find people to restore

this Steinway. It just reminded me of my international

journey of all the places I lived, all the places

I dragged this Steinway around. And the reason

I still have it, because I asked my youngest

daughter, I said, and I had a lot of antiques

and living all over the world. And I asked my

kids, I said, are you guys ever going to want

this? And I guess today's kids don't want antiques.

I mean, they're adults already. But Alex is my

youngest. Where do you live now? I live in San

Diego. I gotta hook you up with producer Barbie.

Yeah, my youngest one, she said, dad, I think

I want the piano. I can't take it right now because

I have nowhere to put it, but eventually I like

it. So I kind of been dragging around with all

these years. And now she has a place to put it.

So now it's actually, you know, we haven't come

to Jesus moment because. you're gonna dig the

piano or you're gonna not so i'm gonna get it

restored then if she doesn't want it i'll put

it on the open market um if she does want it

then it's hers but it's a beautiful beautiful

piece you got oh hell yeah no doubt um and you

got to be careful with that too especially um

that you're in san diego and you've lived in

worse places that obviously budapest but uh the

humidity and in there the salt air You know,

were you being so close in the mountains of Temecula?

All that behind you, boy, that can really create

some havoc on the strings and the ivory and all

the other things. I am very envious of having

heard that right now. But anyway, you asked the

question, I never answered it. Let me answer

your question because I want to offer a little

attention on a piano here. Bring up music. Expect

me to at least jump on it for a minute. Go ahead.

But, you know, leadership was one of those things

where I always found myself from an early age.

You get into situations and you're recognized

as a leadership backing. Like nobody's taking

a leap on something. And I always had throughout

my whole life, even from a young kid. when there

was a leadership vacuum, I would kind of jump

in to fill that vacuum. So I always had a passion

for making things happen, for fixing things,

for tinkering things. And I just kind of evolved

over time where I got more responsibility, I

got more empowerment, and I just was lucky enough

and fortunate enough to work for some great people

who mentored me, and here I am today. Hey, let

me ask you this. Same thing here. If you've been

around long enough, you've seen kind of the pathways.

And the path is never straight, right? It's never

a straight line, nor should it be. It's always

a journey. And these conversations, these lived

experiences that we're talking about now and

that you're going to be talking about more, are

they're kind of the light that either keeps us

from falling off on the path or helps us get

back on when we do fall off, because all of those

things happen. But we're talking about leadership

today. And there's different types of leadership,

and I guess you could kind of say that. But my

question is, we'll focus that down a little bit.

Do you believe that Oh, by the way, we have over

500 people on right now. Wow. We got a whole

bunch. We got a whole bunch of questions, too.

So we're going to have to start taking those

questions off, too. But we'll start with yours

first. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We kind of do that in

the path, you know, and we got this. We're good

because we're going to kind of bring through

a whole message as we go through this in your

leadership comment you made a little bit ago

as you were. you learned from a lot of great

people and you took that information and continued

to grow with it. Do you think that background

and desire and knowledge about leadership is

more often the case for successful leadership

than there's a lot of people that are also, there's

kind of built in, like you have, People are attracted

to different things. You know what I'm trying

to get through here? And it's because they're

built in. Do you think all of that is from culture,

from what they grew up with? Or do you think

people are also just built certain ways? And

both sides, how do you get the best, most creative

leadership and multiplication of leadership?

How do you get those lessons across to those

people? It's got to be different because they're

built differently, right? Well, look, first of

all, you have to have a passion for something,

right? So if you have a passion and I had early

on, I developed a passion for stepping out and

taking charge and leading. I just had that passion.

So because I had that passion, I wanted to learn

more about it. I wanted to get better at it.

So I think passion is always a fundamental trigger

to say, OK, You're passionate about something,

so you want to get better at it. You want to

learn more about it. And, you know, I grew up

without a dad. I grew up with my mom and I didn't

have a strong father figure in my life ever.

Right. So what I had to do. So, you know, on

the one definition, I could have grown up, you

know, I could have ended up a total screw up.

You know, I could have ended up in jail, drug

addict, whatever, because I didn't have a father

figure. Statistically, you could have very much.

Absolutely. So what it forced me to do, it forced

me to look at leadership figures. I didn't have

a dad or father to set the example for me, so

I had to look all around for examples, you know,

whether it was my private life examples, whether

it was my corporate life examples. So I was always

looking up to people and I was always evaluating

say, well, that was not a great thing to do.

What that individual did was like, you know,

I wouldn't want to do that. I wouldn't want people

to treat me that way. So there were some bad

examples and there were some good examples where

I said, well, that was pretty cool, you know?

Like, why did an individual do that? And why

did people respond so positively to that? So

I kind of like observed all kinds of different

individuals, all kinds of leadership styles.

I determined, you know, just like that wouldn't

work for me. I wouldn't want to do that. And

yeah, that was a great example. Let me do that.

So that's how I learned by example, just, you

know, viewing and looking around. It wasn't from

book knowledge. It wasn't from courses. It wasn't

from, you know, going to conferences and going

to a leadership conference and, you know, buying

the twelve hundred dollar packet of books and,

you know. downloads or CD -ROMs or whatever heck

and then you know at $1 ,200 later and so okay

I got it you know I'm I'm going to be good at

this so for me it was just what worked was observation

you know what people were doing and and how would

I want to be treated right so that's that's how

it worked for me that's how I developed and you

know that's what I love doing. That filter has

done an amazing obviously job for for that transition

and bringing you into a direction of where you

felt it was important. I believe everybody who

actually finds what their actual journey is,

like you said, I did a lot of stupid things about

30 years ago, that journey is a whole life of

experiences, but when you finally find or can

find a journey that goes to that next level,

then you really make that greater impact on the

world. And I love meeting different people on

this show, so many different people, because

those journeys are each different and yet they're

each impactfully important to the society as

a whole. I want you just to read Matt Walker

here, this little good buddy thing, but I'm going

to give him a shout out here. I guess that I'd

like you to read the comments if you would. We'll

get into a couple of questions here because we

are a little tight and there's a lot of questions.

I don't want to rush these folks if you don't

mind. Well, I'm just looking at the questions

and Rick has a question first. I'm just going

to the first comment here that I put up on the

screen. Why don't you read that out loud and

then react to it? What strategies help leaders

reduce dependency on the map walker on that's

actually on the screen that's actually shown

on your screen. Oh, got you. Good afternoon,

Mr. Duff. And then from here, I'm going to have

you read this question. I'm going to read the

questions, but let's hit Rick here. And let's

just jump into a question, because you started

already, and I don't want to interfere with that.

But let's go ahead and hit Rick here. I think

it's an awesome question. What's the first sign

that a company culture needs to change? Well,

there's a couple of signs, but the most obvious

to me is people don't want to be there. You have

a revolving door of people coming and going or

it's even worse You can't even attract people

to work for your company because words get out

somehow that you know, the best recruiting a

company can have is Me working for a company

and and me constantly praising what a great place

to work and how much I love going to work every

single day and And you know, I would love to

see Rod come and work for my company because

I love it so much, I love you, and I think you

would have a great time here. So I'm constantly

recruiting for my company, you know, versus,

nah, you know, you don't want to work here. This

place stinks. And, you know, one of the stories

I always share is, is when I first, when I graduated

from college, I worked for Colgate Pell Model.

That was my first job out of the university.

And back in those days, there were no websites.

There was nothing. So somebody would come to

the college campus, recruit you, and then they

would, you know, bring you to the company and

give you like a nickel tour to the company. And

I remember one company I went to, I won't name

them, but they were in the I think the defense

industry. And I'm walking through and I'm always

an extroverted individual. So I always made it

a point to kind of just, you know, come off the

tour and just take one person and say, hey, how

are you? What's your name? What you're doing?

What are you doing? You like it here? Just engage

them in a conversation. And one person came out

and said, this place sucks. You don't want to

work here. But so, I mean, how much how much

more obvious of, you know, that's a pretty bad

culture. Somebody tells you it's so bad that

I want to work here. Then that versus Colgate.

I mean, every person I talked to, it was like,

oh, this place is great. This place is fantastic.

I love coming to work. you know, the bosses are

great. So everybody just like drank the Kool

-Aid at Colgate. So I was like, all right, well,

it's all drank the Kool -Aid. Maybe I'll take

a sip, too, because it sounds pretty good. Well,

yeah. And you know, you expect to hear only the

best. If somebody comes out with that, then it's

like, whoa, wait a minute, that's a bad thing.

And that's a hard question that Rick brought

up, because it does, but it doesn't, because

you're bringing up large organizations. And obviously,

The culture itself is different in anything large

over anything micro or small. The biggest thing

is that, like I said in my opening, that businesses

rise and fall on human beings, on the trust,

on the this and on the that. I think it's just

harder in larger organizations, but it's the

same in that you've got to have the the trusted

departments, meaning you've got to have department

heads that have followed the brand or followed

the message, the leadership position, the leadership

style. You know, it's easier with smaller companies,

but it's also harder because I think it's more

personal. It doesn't get as whitewashed. What

do you think about what I just said in that statement?

Well, look, larger organizations, Obviously,

because of its size, you'll find some pockets,

especially international organizations, right?

You're going to have a slightly different culture

in Brazil than you would have in Germany, even

in a large multinational organization. But I

think for the whole, a large organization may

have a few pockets that are not really working

well, and that will iron itself out over time.

I always say, look, culture eats leadership for

breakfast. I like that. And the reason culture

eats leadership for breakfast is because any

company eventually will end up with a bad leader,

and any department eventually will end up with

a bad leader. Now, if you're starting off with

a questionable culture, over a period of two

or three years, that bad leader can kill that

whole organization, whether it's a department,

whether it's the entire organization. If you

have a strong culture, Sooner or later, over

a period of two or three years, somebody's going

to wake up and say, this person's an idiot. They

have no business leading this organization or

this department. And they can't kill that department

or that organization because the culture was

strong and it sustained itself. So that's why

I say culture meets leadership for breakfast

because leaders come and go, culture stays. And

I don't think enough people, much less organizations,

but also people within the organization. Let's

talk about lifting everybody up, you know. But

even people within the organization, I don't

think they look at life or that relationship

as complex as it is, because there's actually

a lot more, there's potentially a lot more influence

handling it the right way as long as it's a pocket,

right? If it's the whole company, this is a whole

other story. But as long as it's a pocket. And

that leads kind of into what Juan's talking about.

How can, how can, and I love this question because

this is where the importance is. There's a pocket

there. You know, you may not see it for a little

bit, but this is going good, this is going good.

And so as a whole, it's led well, right? How

can leaders identify, identify, my tongue is

not working well today, employees who are ready,

ready, see? ready for greater responsibility?

I love this question. Because that's the important

thing right there, right? That's the whole message.

So, Juan, what I would say to you is let them

fail, right? Let your employees fail. Give them

a task, and don't give them something so monstrous

that they can take down the organization with

it, right? But put them on cross -functional

teams. Maybe they're not ready to lead a team.

but maybe they can be part of a cross -functional

team that they can lead. And let them try and

let them fail and be there to catch them. Don't

be there to tell them what to do. Don't be there

to micromanage them. Brief them what the assignment

is and then just kind of let them try, let them

come to you for help if they need help, but empower

them instead of delegating to them. And to me,

there's a huge, huge difference between delegation

and empowerment. And when we all say we delegate,

well, delegate means I still own it, right? I'm

delegating tasks to you. I'm delegating things

that you can do, but I'm still the owner. So

if you fail, if you succeed, it's still on me,

right? If I empower you, then if you fail, you

succeed, it's on you, right? And the only way

people are going to be ready for their next assignment

is if you empower them. Let them fail or succeed.

Let them learn from it. And then they'll be ready

for that next step. And just, you know, many

organizations, number one, many leaders are afraid

to empower people because they're insecure of

themselves. If I'm insecure of myself, I'm going

to delegate to you. I'm not going to empower

you, right? Because I think I'm it. You know,

I'm the big shot. I make the calls. I make the

decisions. So I just delegate to you versus I

empower you. It's yours. You fail to succeed.

I'm here to support you. I'm here to help you.

But I'm securing myself whether you succeed or

you fail, right? And that's the way you're going

to learn. Yeah, we're talking a lot about that

now. You know, I came here to Mangum, Oklahoma

for a specific thing, and I want you to know

about the regeneration school project and rural

Mangum, Oklahoma. rural 2030 initiative. But

with that said, let me ask you this. Let me back

up. What does it look like and what you're talking

about right now? Just a quick scan through your

new book. What does that look like and what we're

talking about now? How is it structured as far

as this? the chapters, what are you going through?

What are you leading them through? Is it a storyline

of experience or is it a got a little classroom

work in there and a little journaling to go through?

Is it pointing you in one particular direction?

How does this manage that thought complex? Because

this is an important subject. This is something

that's not talked enough about. When you talk

about leadership, it's always like when I talked

about, it seems to be measured about when a leader

walks in a room, how does that room react? That's

how we look at a leader and their accomplishment

abilities. When we really should be looking at

when they leave that room, in other words, how

many leaders have they multiplied behind them?

And that's bigger than just the business. It's

a family, right? All the way down through society.

and we don't talk enough about this. So tell

me what is your book? I go and pick it up. Barnes

and Noble, right? I'm assuming. I didn't see

your number on there, but Barnes and Noble, right?

Did we lose you? No, I'm still here. Oh, okay,

okay. Boy, you're really good at standing still.

That was a very good freeze frame. I'm intently

listening to you. Yeah, that was a really good

freeze frame. That was totally cool. I can't

help but squabble around. What is your book?

Talk to me, take me through your book. What is

it in an overview? What does it look like? Yeah,

so rather than talking about the 12 pillars,

there's four sections and each section has three

pillars. So let me talk about the four sections

so it's a little bit easier to digest. So the

first section is really identifying what your

culture wants. What do you want your culture

to be? What's your DNA? I call it a DNA, you

know, that's stamped. on what you would like

your culture to be, whether that may be an entrepreneur

culture. An entrepreneur culture probably doesn't

work for an accounting firm. So an accounting

firm is going to have a different culture. That

is a really good example. Yeah, if you have an

entrepreneur accounting firm, then you're probably

in Ron. There's another great example. Yes, I

think everybody knows what you're talking about.

But you know it kind of set out to say look What

do you want to be and and there's three pillars

that helps you define? What your DNA is and what

you want human DNA to be and then once you figure

out what you want to be then the next Three pillars,

which is section number two is how do you put

a team together? How do you select people? To

fit that right and without going into detail.

Let me just kind of Let me just brush on one

principle idea that I think is very important,

and that is diversity of thought. We all have

a tendency to surround ourselves with like -minded

individuals, because we think alike, we get along,

we got that chemistry, it's great, loosey -goosey,

and everything is peachy and creamy, but the

problem with that is you're all going to have

the same blind spot. because you're all thinkin'

alike. I think one of the likes that went on

for me back in my, I think it was like in the

mid -80s to late -80s, is how I understood for

the first time because of a personality assessment

which was called Myers and Briggs and Myers and

Myers and Briggs and that way back then. And

I finally understood that not everybody thinks

like me. And up until that point, I couldn't

get along. I didn't have any patience for individuals

who didn't think like me. I used to call people

procrastinators. I would literally get agitated.

I was like, will you guys get off your ass and

do something? And basically, they were just analytical

individuals. They just wanted to analyze more.

They were not ready to make a decision. And you

needed that balance because You know, I would

be more gone ho, let's get it done. And I maybe

go down the wrong avenue. I get it done on time

and on budget, but it's the wrong thing. So the

big thing about putting a team together is get

a diversity of mindset and get these people to

appreciate each other. Right. And then then you

have a team that can start functioning together.

And then the third section, which is again, consists

of three pillars, basically says, look, you know,

how do you grow these individuals? How do you

reinforce things? And and in that pillar, I'm

I'm sorry, in that section, one of the pillars

is empowerment, which I talked about earlier.

One of the pillars is how do you build trust?

So these are all these one of the pillars is

is rituals. You know, how do you reward? How

do you recognize immediately things that happen?

Um, so, you know, those are very important to

say, okay, how are you going to reinforce this?

First one is identifying who you want to be.

Second one is putting together the people that

you want there that are, that are a good match

and compliment each other. And then the third

one is how do you grow those habits, rituals

every day, empowerment, trust that builds great

organizations and great cultures? And then the

fourth one is legacy. You know, how do you get

a legacy where, um, I've gone from the organization,

and maybe the person that worked for me that

I mentored, they're gone from the organization.

And guess what? I went to company A, and the

person that worked for me went to company B.

And all of a sudden, the person that worked for

me went to company B, starts recreating the culture

in company B. And then maybe somebody that he

mentored at company B goes to company C, and

they start the same culture at company C, because

they believe in it. It works for them. So that's

what I, you know, that's like a really big multiplication

factor, where it's not only in one organization,

but what people learn. And to me, you know, that

happened, that happened very early on, I worked

for a brilliant individual, and he mentored me.

And a lot of things I learned from him, which

was Colgate, I took the Wreck -it -Bankeezer,

I took the Strausker, I took the Phillips. So

I took it to different organizations. And guess

what, one of the gentlemen who worked for me

as a marketing guy, at record bank. He ended

up running a billion dollar organization for

uh peach coffee right and um oh that's awesome

company right and so I mentored him and he went

on to something much bigger even you know much

much grandiose than than I ever did right um

and in my first book he actually signed the back

of the book it was one of the guys that endorsed

it And it says, I am who I am today because of

Tom. So don't ever pour into people, mentor people,

build those legacies. And don't worry about,

I would be honored to work for a guy who I mentored

at one time and rose much higher than me because

his potential was higher than me. I have no problem

with that. I would be happy to work for that

individual. And that gets into what I was talking

about earlier, where helping a person, helping

a company, helping a family, helping that next

generation is something that we talk a lot about

on the show. And it's a mission that we have

a lot of importance that holds a lot of importance

to us in our mission, whatever that is. But you

said something just now. You talked about Purell.

Colgate Purell is the company now. No, no, Colgate

Palmolive. Palmolive. Yeah. Oh, well, that changes

my whole story. What I was going to say is, you

know the hair shampoo, it's been around forever.

Purell. And they had a commercial, I don't know,

probably in the 80s or 70s or 90s. I don't know

what it was. But they had this commercial of

this beautiful blonde, obviously a model. And

she, you know, did her hair, you know, around.

It was nice and straight and stringy and gold.

And they were talking about how this wave is

going across the country. And they said, and

it does this and so on. and so on and so on.

And each time they did that, the screen would

double, you know, and then you would have a hundred

things on the screen this little, and then thousands,

you know, and a million on the screen. And I

thought how ironic. See, it's not as good of

a story now, but I talk about that example a

lot on this show because we are, you know, empowering

the great number of class one conversation at

a time. And so on and so on. And you brought

it up earlier. how if you've got to have that

multiplication happening and you've got to have

that. And then what happens is the betterness

of the overall, not just the local. Can you read

what Rob Conniss wrote here and then go into

his question? Can you read this out loud for

me? Sure, absolutely. What an insightful conversation.

Well, first of all, thank you, Rob, for that.

Thank you so much for that. And how can leaders

start building independence within their teams?

Yeah. Well, I have to say that that was something

that I struggled with because many, you know,

early on my career, because I thought it was

about me. Right. And the day the light went on

that it wasn't about me is when I was able to

start building independence for my people. And,

you know, unfortunately, a lot of leaders are

caught up in their ego and they think it is about

them. Are you still there? Yeah. Remember, I

talked about the green room thing. Ah, okay.

I thought I lost you. I was like, oh, what happened

to my internet? No, no. You're good. I'm good.

We're just and you know what? You're a much much

more handsome man than than me splitting the

screen with you. You're talking about some really

cool stuff right now. So, you got the Yeah, so

basically Rob that is the thing that people Especially

leadership and how you go open leadership the

bigger people's ego gets and ego is is is just

what makes people blind and what makes people

fail and Once you realize and once I realized

that it wasn't about me and it wasn't I who are

making successes, I was calling the shots. And

once I understood that it was really empowering

my people, empowering my team, and being there

to support them, and I labeled myself as a servant

leader. Once I understood what servanthood meant,

and my job, and when I became CEO, I used to

joke, I said, look, I have the easiest job in

the room, because I had to do two things, right?

One, I have to be the garden of the culture.

and the garden of the vision. And then I just

have to make sure that each individual knows

how they contribute to that vision, what their

role is, and then equip them, right? If you need

my help, I'm there to support you. If you need

money, let's talk about it and say, you know,

how do we increase your budget or how we make

sure that you efficiently spend that budget.

If you need training. if you need mentorship.

So I'm there to support you. And I used to sit,

this was a ritual because I talk about rituals,

but one of the rituals I used to have is I would

sit down with my direct reports for one day a

month. So it was, you know, it was non -negotiable.

It was on the calendar. We would sit for one

day a month and do what I would call a mini business

review. So we'd go through all the projects,

everything else you're working on. and let me

know where you needed my help. If you were falling

behind, how can I help you? If you were getting

ahead, you know, great. How do we fuel the fire

even higher? If you had any personal issues,

you know, you were going through a fight with

your wife, you know, your kids were filling out

of school, whatever. Everything was on the tape.

Wow. And we were able to discuss that. It was

one on one. And then. The good thing about that

is my direct reports knew that I was not going

to buck them. I was not going to micromanage

them for the rest of the month. We had one day

to spend together. Everything was on the table.

And then they would ask me for my help. And it

would be my responsibility to serve them, support

them, to help them, to make sure they can achieve.

And then we meet again next month now. If you

came to me in between that and say, hey, Tom,

can you help me with this? Can you help? Absolutely.

I was there to support you, but I was not there

to bug you. I was not there to micromanage you.

So you had a month to do whatever you wanted.

And hopefully you delivered. And if you delivered,

we would have another discussion a month from

now and say, hey, out of board, great. You did

a great job. Let's keep it going. Oh, you didn't

make it. Why? How can I help? And if you have

a couple of Discussions, you know sequentially

after two three months and you kept missing.

Well now we got a bigger problem, right? Yeah,

that's a whole other that's a whole additional

conversation on the uh I put this up earlier

on when you were talking about as you were coming

off the other conversation and going in Continuing.

Um, so I wanted to put this up because I think

it fits very well into what you were talking

about And this is what you do. These are some

of the strategies that what you were just talking

about are some of those strategies to help leaders

reduce dependency on themselves. Because I noticed

in how you just described what you were saying

in this, they spend a day with you in a month.

It's non -negotiable. But it's, you know, hey,

how are you? What's going on in your world? What's

going on in your day? Something big out there.

It's a thing of What road do I pave? What is

the pavement that I need to put down to make

you successful so that everybody else is? And

that's a very easy culture that people want to

multiply, because it just is a beautiful thing.

I've used this example a couple of times on the

show. You ever remember the old Coca -Cola commercial?

I want to make the world, I want to teach the

world to sing in perfect harmony. You remember

that? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It kind of is the bigger

global, you know, vision of what it starts. Where

it always starts is it starts with yourself.

And basically what your book is teaching people

is what we all should, that's what we should

be doing. A lot of people are. Some people are.

And the success shows that. But these are the

kind of things, even in the grander scale. Like

I said, if you're raising a family, if you're

managing five people, if you're running a Fortune

500 C -suite company, that doesn't matter. Some

of the personality in it may here or there. But

that doesn't matter. So going back to my original

point, Juan here, what strategies help leaders

reduce dependency on themselves? So what you

just described, right? That is some of the strategy

where leaders can now have people not having

other people dependent on them. Makes sense.

Well, Juan, let me put it through this way, Juan.

The reason people depend on an individual is

because that person made them depend on. So it

starts with the individual. If you are going

to make people depend on you, that's on you.

That's not on them. You made them depend on yourself

rather than making them independent. You probably

asked them to come to you for decisions. You

didn't trust them. You didn't empower them to

make their own decisions. You kind of set up

a funnel. where you're kind of choking everything

to death because everybody has to come to you

for approval. Everybody has to come to you for,

and you trained your team, you trained your people

to be dependent on you. So that's on you, right?

And Juan, I'm not talking directly to you, but

I'm just addressing the answer because you asked

the question, right? I'm not saying you're a

bad guy, Juan. right? That's what I'm saying.

Wait a minute. Hold on. Maybe I'm doing something

wrong here. He does have that uh that nice flashy

look there. So, maybe he's uh maybe he's getting

a correction in his his brain thoughts which

is which is a great thing. I mean, it's it's

an important thing. Um II think uh II think there's

the the biggest problem in this is that it's

it's about human nature because this scenario,

we're And there's a next level expectation from

leaders. We have people of vision and lead, and

that's critical. It's like our politics, right?

You have the elected officials who are supposed

to have the right vision, and then you have the

people that are the background of this country,

economically and mechanically. You need both

to be doing right. And the more better... I'm

saying that wrong on purpose. The more better

leadership is that what they do, because they

have that next level of responsibility, I think

there's so much more effect that good leaders

and bad leadership can have because there's an

influence there of expectation, but also, hey,

it works there, so I should listen to him or

her. And that expectation of being right is better.

Here's the problem with that. So there's some

people who just don't care. I'm the boss, do

it my way, come hell or hell, whatever. And I'm

being extreme here. And then there's other people

who just don't think about it. They're like,

OK, I'm me. I'm doing me. You're my peeps. I'm

trying to get the most out of it, but I don't

really know necessarily. You don't know what

you don't know, right? So how does somebody recognize

that maybe they're doing a good job, but is there

self -checks somewhere along the way in what

you're talking about that can tell somebody,

oh, wait a minute, that sounds a lot like me.

What do you think about that question? I guess

the best way to answer that is everybody should

have an accountability partner. Okay. I like

it. And the toughest... And the toughest place

to be in is being either like the chair of the

board of CEO or an entrepreneur. Wait, say that

again. Did you say compass? Or I'm sorry, I missed

that word. The toughest place to be is either

to be at the top of the organization where you're

a CEO or if you're a lone wolf because you're

an entrepreneur. Because anywhere else in between,

you have built in accountability systems, right?

You have, like if you're an employee, you got,

you know, reviews. So you have all these kind

of, if you're a CEO, you know, there's really

nobody holding you accountable. So really good

CEOs, they have coaches. They have coaches that

have coached them for many, many years. One of

the guys that I love is Pat Gelsinger, who I

met when he was the CEO of VMware. He was a high

flyer in Intel, became the CEO of VMware, and

then he became the CEO of Intel. He's had the

same personal coach for over 30 years. Wow. And

the beauty of that is that person is like a family

member. I mean, you're going to be somebody coaching

for somebody for 30 years, you have to have a

very good relationship. Even if you're coaching

somebody for one year or two years, it has to

be a great relationship. You have to trust each

other. But you need an accountability partner

that doesn't blow smoke up your rear end, but

an accountability that tells you the truth. So

you need realism interjected in your life. And

the toughest place, again, is like if you're

at the top of the food chain, everybody's kissing

your butt and nobody wants to give you a reality

check. So you need a person who's honest in your

life to give you a reality check. So we chill

here. And it's obvious. I mean, you need somebody

and then that communication. So I'm not sure

there's a lot of ways to look at what she's asking

us here. And is that communication? between the

leader and the group back and forth? Is it communication,

the leader talking to the group? Is it communication

about what that leader wants is true, honest

feedback? Like you said, instead of the butt

kissers that are gonna tell you whatever you

want, and the results aren't necessarily what

they're telling you they see by the actions that

you're taking. So what role is communication

playing? in creating a thriving workplace culture.

The obvious one is be able to communicate, respect

each other's, you know, people that they are

and so forth and so on. But is there some kind

of substantial roles that we can point at that

makes sense in this question? Well, one of the

things that I talk about in culture work is communication

is important, but communication is only part

of the picture, right? When I talk about communication,

I actually say, look, there's three levels of

communication. The first level of communication

is I'm informing you. I'm informing you, and

this is probably 90 % of the communication inside

of organizations, inside of companies. We have

12 people in a conference room. One person is

standing in front of a projector. They got their

PowerPoint or whatever presentation, and they

have flipping through slides for people, convincing

other people, informing other people why this

is the great thing to do. One of the funniest

stories I always share is we were overseas, so

obviously there was jet lag involved, but Larry,

who's one of the senior executive VPs came into

the room, and within about 10 minutes of the

presentation, Larry is snoring like a chainsaw,

right? and everybody's like what should we do

should we should we wake up larry i'm just embarrassed

i said forget larry the guy that's doing a presentation

put him to sleep he's the guy he's the guy that

we need to fix not larry but um that's like 90

of the communication inside of organizations

i'm informing you of my opinion and why you think

is right yeah right so that's the level one um

information level two is actually what I call

communication where two people have in a dialogue

and now you're like beginning to ask like why

is Rod asking me that question so you're actually

starting to think and putting yourself in the

other person's shoes and starting to meet common

ground something to say okay how can we work

together you know what's driving their agenda

versus so communication actually taking place

and and you're building that that relationship

and the highest level and and and leaders who

reach the highest level uh and cultures that

reach the highest level is what is called connection

right and and i like to say when i'm informing

you like information is like they even you know

you can even take a course about how you stand

about eye contact about posture about But that's

all information. Communication, your brain kicks

in. Your brain kicks in because now you're starting

to interchange ideas with other individuals and

you're starting to ask questions. But connection

happens with your heart. It doesn't happen with

your brain. It happens with your heart. It happens.

It happens with empathy. It happens with feelings.

So that's how you connect with individuals. And

you connect with individuals a lot, a lot of

individual stories too, right? A lot of these

presentations that you're seeing corporate, you

know, they have facts and, you know, they're

overwhelmed with all kinds of facts. But if you

start sharing stories and you start sharing your

life and you start being vulnerable, that's how

you start forming connections. And that's how

you're going to start forming trust with other

people inside your organization. And it's the

same for the family. Right? If you're vulnerable

with your spouse, if you're vulnerable with your

kids, if they see you at your weakest moments

and also at your strongest moments, that's where

you're going to start forming connection. And

that happens through your heart, not through

your mind, not through your body, it happens

through your heart. And once you start tapping

into people's feelings and hearts, that's where

you really make huge gains. You know, you're

talking about being authentic. That's authenticity.

I mean, that's what That's what shows authenticity.

And that's what shows and builds connections.

And just to surround the point. By the way, I

forgot to tell you, there's well over 700 people

here that are coming into the show. So welcome

everybody. Please subscribe and like the comments.

Not only here, but after the show on the like

and make comments on the show. I thank you for

sharing the show, by the way. I appreciate that,

Tom. And Matt, just this comment came in just

a minute ago, about five minutes ago, about 15

minutes ago. Matt Walker, would you read what

Matt Walker said here? It says, monthly one -on

-ones. I love that. Thanks for the early shout

out. look uh one of the beauties and i just mentioned

to you that the the third level is is is connecting

with an individual what better way to connect

with somebody than on these monthly months where

it's an open table it's an open table they can

share anything and that's how you connect this

is one of the guys that you know work within

those mid to large uh companies uh management

in the company so And you know what, his personality,

I'd be willing to see it. I don't know how much

he's doing right now. I haven't talked to him

in years, except on the show every now and then.

Although he did call me and chat with me about

a month ago, just called to say hi. So again,

hey Matt. But anyway, my point be that when you

said that, it's such a big deal because, you

know, there's a review and what you described

is... I'm lazy when I said review on steroids,

but it's that it's that next thing because you

know a work Situation is like a family And these

these skill sets just need to become part of

who we are each and every day That's how they

become make us authentic, right? One of the stories

that I I love sharing. I think it's my first

book I'm not sure if it made into my second book,

but on these monthly one -on -ones, I was sitting

with my VP of marketing. And he came to me and

says, he says, Tom, I got to ask you a question.

One of my guys got a better offer. And what should

I tell him to try to get him to stay? Because

he may be leaving the company. He was a bright

young guy. And I thought about it for about five

seconds, which probably felt like an eternity,

right? And then I just turned to him, I said,

look, be honest with the guy. Be honest with

him that, look, we got budgets, so we can't give

him a big raise that's gonna match him to stay,

but we can do something else for him. We're an

international company, we can try to move him

to another country, and we'll put a succession

plan into place for him, right? So, but be honest

with him. But here, that did two things. First,

it... laid out a pathway for that gentleman,

which, by the way, became a senior marketing

director in Amsterdam. Then he went to the US

company, became a senior marketing guy in the

US company. And then I think he moved back to

Eastern Europe and became a general manager for

a different company. But we laid out a path to

him. But also for my VP of marketing, he knew

that I would be honest with him. So he knew I

was not gonna bullshit him with stuff because

I told him to be honest with one of his reports.

So it kind of set that stage for that. One of

my favorite stories. That's an awesome story.

And I've got about three comments in a row here

I want to kind of help you bring me through.

The first one here is a question at the end,

but I love it. I mean, can you read what Max

saying out loud here and then and then and then

read the question and answer it for me? Sure,

sure. Great stuff coming. I told you I love the

I love the questions that are coming across.

It's beautiful. Yeah. Well, I think you're kudos

to you and kudos to your audience. They're very

interactive and they're very involved. So, you

know, one of the things that we started talking

about when we first started talking is like You

know, how do you become a great leader? I said,

well, you got to have the passion for it. And

if you have the passion for it, you're going

to want to improve and you're going to want to

learn. You want to grow. So I think you have

a great audience here and I love them. Max said

great topic. And I agree. I think culture is

a great topic. What is the biggest mistake leaders

make when creating workplace culture? Right.

Right. It's a great question. And, you know,

I always thought I'm not the smartest guy in

the room. Right if it isn't all saying if you're

always the smartest guy in a room go find a different

room But I Think if if Elita says I think this

is what the culture is gonna be. I think that's

a mistake I think you sit around the round table

and say and let's assume for a second that your

startup organization There is no culture right

or maybe you are an organization. That's you

know fairly well along the way but you're not

really crazy about the culture, maybe the culture,

people are not living it, people are not buying

into it. I think if a leader says this is what

the culture should be, it's dead on arrival.

I think what a leader should do is sit around

the table and say, what should our culture be?

What's working? What's not working? How should

we treat each other? How should we behave? What

would be our shared values? And then, you know,

as a leader, you always have the casting vote,

right? But just, you know, go and canvas people,

because they're going to have to live that culture.

They're going to have to breathe that culture.

And if you don't get their buy -in off front,

you don't get their ideas off front, you're dead

on arrival. You're dead on arrival, and you're

closing your... You said the funnel, which was

a great example earlier. You're closing yourself

out to so much because... You know, everything

that I... I look through everything in life,

this moment right now, you know, this discussion,

just as you do. I look at it through a lens.

And that lens is the filter that my brain uses

to decide what every action or what everything

that's happening to me is. There's a filter and

they're saying, that's what this means. And when

you're, no matter how good of a leader, probably

the better leader that you are, the more you

realize that you're closing yourself out, whether

that person is better at widget making finance

than you are, maybe not, that's probably why

you're in whatever the widget making finance

leadership role that you're in. But they may

be very much better at this process that they

look at every day. that is just, it's inefficient,

it's not working the best, and you don't know

that, and that doesn't make you a bad person,

but you know, little examples like that happen

every single day, especially the bigger the organization,

but no matter what, they happen every single

day, and that's what's so challenging about leadership

roles, it's the, you said it earlier, it's the

loneliest position. You're the one judging yourself.

And if you don't know what you don't know, that's

going to be a hard fix unless they come and talk

to somebody like you. Jeffrey's got a good point

here. Why don't you read this one, please? Jeffrey,

I didn't pay you for this, but thank you so much.

Great show tonight. Really valuable leadership

insights from Tom. Thank you. Say that last part

again. I read your crack up. I didn't hear it.

Really valuable leadership insights from Tom.

So thank you. Thank you, Jeffrey. and just, yeah,

put it to good work. All right. And then and

then there's another Miss Bowman here. Go ahead

and read what she's saying out loud. Excellent

conversation, Rod and Tom. This topic is incredibly

relevant. Well, again, thank you. And it's bigger

than this, you know, it's it's it's very relevant

because it's we need to get and as a I and everything's

moving faster, we need to get better at this

stuff. We really need to get better at being

a human race. And, you know, not to be foo -foo

-y and that, but the bottom line is we do. And

you brought the point up. I mean, we're talking

about leadership. And one of the things you talked

about is building from the inside out. And it's

about you becoming that better person so that

the next person I talk about, I do a column in

the newspaper as well. The column I wrote this

week, it was about, you know, is the world better

or is a person, here's leadership in a nutshell,

is a person better because you were in their

life? You had an effect on their life. Are they

a better person because of that? That should

be the question we ask everybody ourselves about

every situation like this. And underneath it

all, Tom, underneath it all, that's kind of the

message here, isn't it? Yeah, and I think that's

you phrased it great, you know, is the person

better off because you're in their life But let

me just add to that That you may not have been

the nicest person in their life Maybe you were

a little bit tough love in their life because

they need a little bit tough love, right? So

You know maybe you're not a pushover, maybe not

a rollover, you still contributed, you still

added a lot of value to that individual's life.

But maybe you pushed that person a little bit

more than they were really comfortable with,

you know? And by the way, before I forget, I

know, shout out to those last two individuals

that, you know, said something nice thing about

our conversation. I do want to offer all your

audience and I think maybe at the end you're

gonna do this. Yes, go ahead. If Ryder will tell

you how to get a hold of me, but I will give

you a free digital download of culture work.

So you don't have to buy the book. I mean, if

you want to go to Amazon, buy the book. Great.

But you know, a paper copy. But I can give you

a free digital download. You just reach out to

me and I will tell you how to do that. Oh, before

you do that, are we also telling them about the

surprise little offer that you're waiting on

that for that? the teaser stuff we're doing on

the social media. Well, sorry, I let the bag

out. I let the cat out of the bag. The free gift

was the free download, so sorry. No, but we're

also talking about doing a survey. Yeah, there's

a survey on the website since we're talking about

it. Yeah. And and hold on and that was what you

were able to download on, weren't you? I knew

it. I knew it. I don't know. That's better to

my madness. Alright, we'll uh we'll uh we'll

we'll do it. We'll do it your way. Hey, let's

see what happens. I'm definitely I'm I'm definitely

going to download because I think it makes sense

and I would love to like love to put anything

special in. Um I am putting your phone number

and your email on. I assume that's how they can

get ahold of you as well. Yeah. before it gets

too late. I've got about 10 minutes here. Hopefully,

I try and see if we can finish up before 10 minutes.

I don't know if we can do this because we still

got about eight questions. Alright, let's run

through. My dog Daisy is over here wanting some

attention. Todd, why don't you read the first

part of this comment and then the question that

they asked for Todd here. says, I'm really enjoying

this conversation. How can leaders balance giving

employees freedom while still maintaining accountability

and strong performance? I mean, there is a balance

in that, right? There is that balance, but does

it go back to being more authentic with your

people and knowing them more? Is it that deeper?

Is that that bridge? Well, I think, again, I

said this before, let people fail. So that gives

the employee the freedom. But you maintain the

accountability and the strong performance by

maintaining the situation and containing the

situation that they can fail in. So don't give

them too much where they bring down the ship

when they fail. So sit down with the individual.

Heart -to -heart conversation say look. This

is what I'm thinking I'm thinking about putting

you in a leadership role in this particular project

I'm thinking about putting it making it a lead

in this particular situation. I think it would

be great for you I Think you would grow from

it. It's okay if you mistake and and what do

you think? Are you up for this? All right, and

then it's a conversation where you set the expectations

up front Then you're gonna put this person in

the situation And, you know, maybe the person

says, I don't know. And then you got to be encouraged.

You can say, no, no, no, right. I know you can

do it. All right. I know you can do it. I've

got the confidence to you. That's why I suggested

it. And like I said, control the situation that

if they do fail and undoubtedly they may fail

partially or wholly. Yeah. But you've got a safety

net for them. So you're not setting enough. You're

not setting it up for failure. Right. Because

there's one there's a difference between setting

somebody up for failure which doesn't good You

know doesn't feel good to anybody and doesn't

do the organization any good, but it's a different

thing to say That person I'm gonna acknowledge

are gonna fail But they're gonna learn from it

and they're gonna be a better person because

it's because they they gain the experience Makes

sense. Yep. Absolutely. I love that Kevin here.

I it's got a really good good one here as well

to it. I look yeah look I love this show. You've

made a comment earlier that the energy in all

of that is there. And it's because you have people

now, obviously they're coming because they have

a background or interest or whatever in this

subject. And that's all awesome. But they also

come every once while I get kind of some quirky

people, you know how that is. But, you know,

99 .9999. This is amazing and very interesting.

At least to me, I know you're in the business

and you get it all the time, but I love this.

That's why I love this show. Kevin says, such

an important topic for business owners. And I'll

add to what he's saying here, of all sides, right?

What are some early signs that an organization

has become too dependent on one leader? And I

told you early on that I've experienced this,

you know? And we both said, you know, 30 years

ago, we've all done some stupid things. And that's

where lived experience comes in. And, you know,

in your opening discussions, having those mentors

and having those lights on the journey really

make a lot of difference. But how do you get

those early signs, right? What are some of those?

Well, I would summarize it that There's some

obvious signs where a person is the bottleneck.

And that's what we're talking about. When people

are too dependent on one leader, that one leader

became the bottleneck. And what are signs of

a bottleneck? Projects get delayed. Projects

get delayed because the decision maker may be

on holiday, the decision maker, they can't get

a hold of them, they can't get on the council.

So one sure sign is things get delayed, right?

Another sure sign is things go over budget, right?

Because again, you have an individual who's the

bottleneck, and there may be some overrun charges,

other charges, because things don't get delivered

on time. Decisions are not made. Change orders

are put in because decisions are made not in

time and matter. So budgets overrun. Projects

get delayed. I mean, those are just like short

-tail signs. that there's a bottleneck and there's

one leader who's holding up the progress. Yeah,

that makes a lot of sense. And that bottleneck

may be a leader, may just be a manager, may be

a line manager. I mean, there's, within organizations,

obviously, the potential for a lot of different

spots for these things to happen. Let me, since

you brought it up, and I don't know if you're

there, but, you know... I'm an old guy, so when

I grasp the concept, let me respond to it before

I forget about it. But I say this all the time,

look, you cannot manage people. It's impossible

to manage people. The reason you cannot manage

people, because managers are managing processes.

People happen to be part of that process, right?

But if you have the wrong person in the wrong

job, You can manage that person from here to

eternity. Nothing's going to change because they're

in the wrong spot. So, by definition, when you

manage things, you're just making it more efficient

and you're making sure that it runs according

to designs. That is a process. That's not people,

right? What you do is you lead people. You find

out what makes the rock tick, which is different

from Tom, which is different from Dirk, and put

them in a situation where they get to use their

strength, they get to excel. You empower them

and you make them really, really crank out performance.

That's leadership. If you're managing people,

you're on their own business because all you're

doing is you're managing processes that people

happen to be part of. I like that. You know,

I said early on that this is like looking at

a house through different windows and every once

in a while somebody comes along. over a lot of

conversations. And looking through that other

window is a different concept. And that right

there is a statement that you normally wouldn't

think you would hear in a leadership conversation.

If you're managing people, you're in the wrong

business. And then when you explain that, that

makes a hell of a lot of sense. That's that next...

level, next step way of describing something.

And I love that. It's the evolution of people,

these long story of the human being, I believe.

Because the long story discussions like these,

I think, evolve, lay out, open up what people

are thinking. We need to have more of that. And

it's people like you that really bring that information

forth. Why don't you read what Dirk says here?

I like what he says here. He says, excellent

episode with so many useful takeaways for business

leaders. Thank you, Dirk. And earlier, Ms. Bowman

here, she came back with a different, not a comment,

but a question here. What should a CEO delegate

first? It's a great concept when trying to build

leadership capacity. It's an interesting question.

And actually, it's very interesting. What should

the CEO delegate first? That's a curious question.

Go ahead. Sorry. So I'll give that an answer

from two different perspectives. The first perspective

is you're going to delegate something that you

do to someone who's really good at. Figure out

who you're going to delegate. And again, please

don't delegate, empower, right? Major difference

between delegation and empowerment. But if you're

a CEO, see the people on your team and see what

that person's strength is. And then find something

to empower that person whose strength is that.

So, you know, don't give that person like, for

example, You know, we talked about different

types of strengths and whether you take strength

finders, this, Myers and Briggs, you know, all

these assessments show you what you're good at.

So, you know, if you're a highly analytical person,

you know, please don't put that person in charge

of leading a project that has to be done by September

1st because it ain't going to happen. So find

that person's strength. Now the other way to

answer that question is what you should delegate

first is if you look at your daily tasks as an

individual, and it doesn't have to be a CEO,

it could be anybody. If you look at your daily

tasks and you say, look, is there a person that

can do what I'm doing 80 % as good as I'm doing

it? Give it to that person, empower that person

to do it, right? Because 80 % is almost there.

So trust them, empower them. That will free up

your time as a CEO or as a group leader or whatever

to work on yourself, work on your business, work

on empowering and developing other people. I

mean, there's all kinds of things, but if you

find something that a person on your team can

do 80 % as good as you can do it, hand it off,

empower them. let him do it. So that's kind of

two ways of answering the same question. Yeah,

I love that. I absolutely love that. I got two

comments here, back to back. Then I want you

to go into your closing, your closing. What do

you want to leave everybody? You have 716 new

fans here and they've loved, we got to do a follow

-up, maybe another, you know, a little bit more

about your book or maybe, you know, the subject

that got you to the the book that got you to

the second book. Because I think leadership and

your approach here is such an important thing

in the bigger scope of life. Because it really

does. It starts from the inside out. And that's

such an important theme, for lack of a better

word, on this show. I'm going to put up two comments

in a row. I'm going to leave Matt's out. Matt

said that earlier. We already talked about that.

But I'm going to put up this comment and then

the next one. And then I want you to leave a

comment that you want to leave everybody with.

And then I'll put you backstage. You didn't text

those M &Ms earlier, did you? Those green ones?

No, I did not. Not the green ones. OK, well,

you got those brown ones. That's okay, no problem.

So no greetings, we're okay. So these two comments,

what do you want to leave everybody with? I'll

do a closing statement, I'll come back and join

you in the green room, tie this up in a bow,

and then I'm gonna jump onto the next show. All

right, so here's your first comment. I love it,

it's an adventure show. So what do you want to

put, read this out loud and comment back. I really

enjoyed this conversation, a live conversation,

great questions, and thoughtful answers. That's

one of the adventure show. And then you had another

one, you said? Fantastic show, Rod. Thanks to

Tom for sharing such valuable experience. Thank

you. Yeah, I think that's a great comment, a

great closing comment from the audience, unless

somebody else pops up in the next minute or two.

What do you want to leave everybody with this

like a final thought? Oh, oh before you do that.

I I'm very proud of my my copy and paste skill

sets that I've practiced on for many years and

so How did I do on the copy and paste here? You

did perfect. That's how you get a hold of me

That's right. All right, so that's your email

and your phone number, right? So what what what

lasting comment what final thought? Do you want

to lead the 700 and some odd same number of people?

Oh, what do you want to lead with them as a final

thought? Before before before the final thought,

just one clarification on my email. You see my

last name. That's my first name at my last name

dot com. My last name is very unique. If you

Google or search anything correctly dot com,

you'll find me and my two daughters. So. whether

LinkedIn profile, whether my website, whatever,

if you just do Karesti, you'll find me somewhere

or another, even if you don't want to email me.

On social media? On social media as well? Social

media as well. You know, it's a very unique last

name. Great to have the name Karesti, right?

Yes. All right. So regarding your other question,

look, I've been asked this question a bunch of

times. I always kind of give the same answer

and it's going to take about five minutes to

unwrap. So I hope we have five minutes left.

But some of us have jobs, some of us hit careers,

and some of us have call -ins. And what's the

difference? Great point. Great point. You know,

jobs, nine to five, you punch the clock. You

know, you go in there to pay your bills. You

may hate it, but it's a job. Some of us, and

including myself, I had a pretty good career

where, you know, you kind of... Climb the corporate

food chain, maybe sign the same company, but

you build a career for yourself. That's a little

bit more fun. And then a handful of us get to

live our calling. So what is the difference between

a career, a job, and a calling? Well, get a pencil

and pen down. So write these three questions

down for everybody. Get clarity on these three

questions. And it took me about 40 years to get

clarity on these questions. All right, so and

we talked about most of this during this podcast,

you know, we talked about Who you are as an individual

right not what you do Right. So you say I a lot

of times I ask people who are you and they say

well, I'm an accountant I'm an engineer. I'm

a used to CEO, you know, no, that's not who you

are. That's what you do so get clear on who you

are and My answer for who I am it took me a little

bit years to find this is I am a servant leader

I mentioned this in the podcast earlier, right?

So I'm always looking to serve others. I'm a

servant leader. That's what I do. That's how

I'm wired. And it took me a long time to define

who I was as an individual. And that's not related

to any specific job. That's not related to any

specific company or career. I just am am. I can

be in any situation and I can be serving others.

The second question is, you know, we started

off like, what is your passion? You know, I was

passionate about leadership, so I learned about

leadership. I wanted to be better at it. So what

is your passion? Get a definition of what your

passion is. So who you are, what your passion

is. My passion, again, is adding value to others,

making people better, making companies better,

making things better. I'm a tinker, right? So

that's what I'm passionate about. And then the

last question is, what are you good at? And this

is crucial because a lot of people love, they

may be passionate about something, but they suck

at it. So that doesn't help you. So figure out

what you're good at. And I'm pretty good at leading

and mentoring. So that's my three things. I'm

a servant leader. I'm passionate about making

people and things better. And I'm pretty good

at mentoring and leading. Now, once you have

clarity on that, that defines your calling. You

can put me in any situation and I can serve.

my family, I can serve my customers, I can serve

the people in this audience, right? I can add

value, I can, I'm passionate about adding value,

whether it's to this audience, whether it's to

my customers, whether it's to my vendors, and

I'm pretty good at mentoring and leading, and

I can mentor my employees, I can mentor my kids,

I can mentor, you know, people on my tennis team,

I mean, it's endless. So get clarity in those

three questions. And then you will find what

your calling is. And as you get to live your

calling, you're going to be a happy individual.

Yeah. That boils right on down into the find

what is your calling, find what brings you joy,

and make it your job or make it your career.

And so as promised, oh, by the way, Matt came

back on right as you were starting to talk. You

both killed it today. Great topic, good involvement,

excellent content. Thanks, guys. And thank you,

Matt. Why don't you give everybody a big wave,

and we'll catch you in the green room and leave

those in the next one. So as promised, that was

a show I've been very excited about. But also

as promised, that was an episode that's very

useful, very constructive. because it creates

an issue resolved that also creates a bigger

picture. Let's make the world, let's teach them

to sing in perfect harmony. So Tom, thank you.

Our conversation, we started this conversation,

asked a pretty simple question. What happens

when you're not there? And after listening to

Tom today, I think that that question becomes

even more important because eventually every

leader leaves the room. Every CEO, every business

owner, every manager, every coach, every community

leader, every parent. Hey, eventually somebody

else gets the keys and what we built Is going

to tell a story of who who we leave right? Not

that not the title on the door Not how many people?

reported to us, you know not not whether we were

the We were the loudest voice at the table The

question is this right? Did we leave people stronger

than when we found them? Did we teach somebody

else how to make a decision? How to make that

decision? Did we create trust? Did we allow people

to fail? Did we learn and grow? Did we build

people who eventually didn't need us? That's

a good one. I love that. There's something wonderfully

uncomfortable. about that idea. Because sometimes

being needed feels like, feels a lot like being

valued. But it's not necessarily the same thing.

Those two, no. A leader who makes himself or

herself indisposable may actually be limiting

the very people he or she is supposed to be developing.

And that's where Tom's idea of of leadership

multiplication really sticks with me. Yeah, don't

just collect followers, create leaders. Don't

build independence, build capability. Don't build

something that collapses without you, right?

Build something that's worthy of surviving. And

I think that matters far far beyond corporate

America. I've said it a bunch of times during

the show. It matters in our businesses. It matters

in our schools. It matters in government. It

matters in our community. And yes, it matters

around the kitchen table. Because culture isn't

something Fortune 500 companies own. Every family

has one. Every workplace has one. Every town.

and society has one. Every organization has one.

The only question is whether we're creating that

culture intentionally or simply allowing one

to happen around us. Tom, you know what, thank

you for bringing more than 25 years of global

leadership experience to our table. And more

importantly, for turning those experiences into

lessons ordinary people can actually use. And

to everybody watching or listening right now,

if something Tom said today made you think of

your business, your employees, your family, or

maybe yourself differently, don't let that thought

disappear when this episode ends. Don't let it

disappear. Do something with it. Have the conversation.

Have a watch party. Give somebody responsibility.

Listen before you answer. Develop somebody. Trust

somebody. And maybe tomorrow walk out, walk out

of the room and see what happens. Right? If they

don't need you quite as much as they did yesterday,

maybe that's not a failure of leadership. Maybe

that's evidence that it's working. I'm Rod Duff.

This is insights and straight talk Empowering

the great middle class one conversation at a

time and you know what if these conversations

matter to you subscribe Follow the new Rod Duff

Facebook page. We started that one just a little

bit ago expanding our live Facebook audience

He sells several people from Facebook on today

the new Facebook page. That's in the link, by

the way. That link is in the description, by

the way. Share this episode with somebody who

leads people and help us continue building this

independent media ecosystem by buying us, sorry,

I got my tongue tied here, by buying us coffee

on Kofi, K -O -F -I. That link's on... in the

description too. And also, by the way, before

I finish this off, why don't you also let anybody

you know that's a speaker or has a book out or,

you know, like Tom, is developing a process that

I think that I think the great no class can share.

We're always looking for guests. We do these

shows six days a week, so every once in a while

I so like to shout it out to you in the audience.

Hit me up if you got any ideas. We're hooked

into, I think, into December, but that's only

one. So go ahead and hit me up and let's have

a conversation. One conversation at a time, as

I like to say. You can find us on Insights and

Straight Talk, on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, iHeartRadio,

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across our growing ecosystem. Whether you're

watching or listening, remember, you don't need

a title to lead. You need people who are better

because you were there and capable because you're

no longer in the room. I want to pause and let

that sink in a minute. Until next time, keep

asking questions, keep listening to each other

and keep making sure that there's always another.

share at the table. Before you leave, if you'd

like to watch another one of the podcasts, click

the first link in the description. We love having

you here and we appreciate all your support.

And with that, producer Barbie and I are out.

Amen. Make leadership happen.