Hamilton Vs Burr
A sitting vice president shoots a Founding Father, the Constitution gets rewritten because of a botched election, and a rivalry that starts as professional respect ends in blood. That’s the real historical arc behind Hamilton and Burr, and it’s even more complicated than the musical makes it look.
We’re joined by Dr. Stephen Knott, historian and author who studied Hamilton long before pop culture made him a household name. Together, we map the early connection between Alexander Hamilton and Aaron Burr as Revolutionary War veterans and New York City lawyers, then follow the moments where politics turns personal. The Senate race that stings, the grudges that harden, and the campaign tactics that push both men toward a public breaking point all matter because early American politics runs on reputation as much as policy.
From there, we dig into the election of 1800, the Electoral College tie, and the House vote that triggers the 12th Amendment. We talk about why Hamilton urges support for Jefferson over Burr, what that says about party politics and principle, and how “all ambition, no principle” becomes a lens for understanding Burr’s choices. Finally, we unpack the duel itself, what dueling rules often aimed for, why Burr’s shot changes everything, and what happens next: indictment, a troubled journey west, and a treason trial that ends in acquittal but not redemption.
If you care about US history, constitutional amendments, the Electoral College, or the true story behind Hamilton vs Burr, this conversation connects the dots. Subscribe, share this with a history-minded friend, and leave a review with your take on Burr: calculating villain or complicated product of his era?
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1 SPEAKER_01: Welcome back to Civics in the year.
We are in historical dramas part of our podcast.
And I love this.
I love it because things like, you know, the very popular show
by Lynn Manuel Miranda, Hamilton, has brought all of
these really, really cool things to light.
But I have with me today Dr.
Stephen Knott, who wrote a book about Hamilton again before the
Hamilton play made it cool to love Hamilton.
So, Dr.
Knott, thank you so much for being with us today.
And today we're talking about kind of the beef between
Hamilton and Burr.
And I have seen the play three times in person.
I have listened to the, you know, the musical millions of
times, it feels like.
And I feel like I have read every book, including yours.
What?
So let's start with the good stuff.
Hamilton and Burr worked together, right?
They were, I don't want to say besties, but they were not
enemies at first.
So can you tell me a little bit about the good parts of Hamilton
and Burr's relationship?
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, they they knew each other quite well.
They had both fought in the Revolutionary War, and both Burr
and Hamilton served as staff officers for General Washington.
Hamilton was at Washington side for close to four years.
Burr, a much much briefer stint, but he and Hamilton would have
been in close contact with one another during that time frame.
After the war ends, after the triumph at Yorktown and the
Treaty of Paris, both men returned to New York City, which
was their base, and they're prominent lawyers in New York
City.
And they even argued a number of legal cases with each other, and
occasionally opposite sides of the courtroom.
But nonetheless, it was always a fairly amicable relationship.
Where the break seems to begin to occur is when Hamilton's
father-in-law, Betsy, Elizabeth Schuyler's father, runs for the
United States Senate in New York State, and Burr defeats him.
And so Burr defeating Hamilton's father-in-law might have been
one of the first more serious breaks between the two.
But what really puts it over the top, Liz, is in 1800, when Burr
is supposed to be running as the vice presidential candidate with
Thomas Jefferson, that election deadlocks and it's thrown into
the House of Representatives because no candidate wins in the
Electoral College.
And Hamilton argues vigorously with his Federalist allies to
get them to support Thomas Jefferson over Aaron Burr.
And Burr is well aware that Hamilton is lobbying on
Jefferson's behalf.
And so that, needless to say, does not go down well with Burr.
And then the final break of sorts is 1804.
Four years later, Burr runs for governor of New York, and
Hamilton pulls out all the stops to try to keep Burr from
becoming governor of New York State.
And it's in the midst of that campaign that word reaches Burr
that Hamilton said something.
And to this day, we're not sure entirely what it what it was
that Hamilton supposedly said, but it was something of a very
personal nature, questioning Burr's character, questioning
his integrity, supposedly.
It reaches Burr.
Burr challenges Hamilton to either withdraw that comment or
face him on the dueling graphs.
And being both men, being gentlemen of a certain elite,
you know, those are your two options.
And if you don't apologize publicly, you have to defend
your honor, you have to defend the person you've defamed on
these fields of honor, as they called them.
And that leads to the duel where Burr ends up killing Hamilton
because he refuses to apologize or refuses to withdraw whatever
statement he supposedly made.
SPEAKER_01: It is again so interesting.
So I want to back up to the election because this is before
the president and vice president ran as a ticket, right?
It was, you know, whoever is first gets to be president,
whoever is the runner up is the vice president, which thank
goodness that is not the way it is now, because I think that
would be incredibly awkward.
Yes, it would be but so doesn't Jefferson change this because he
doesn't want to have Aaron Burris as vice president.
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
So 1800 is such a disaster, electorally speaking, that
Jefferson and his party, particularly his party
activists, promote or sponsor the 12th amendment to the
constitution, which changes the original procedure.
As you mentioned, if you came in second, you become vice
president.
So for instance, today we'd have a Donald Trump and Kabala Harris
presidency and vice presidency.
Not going to work all that well, needless to say.
So the 12th Amendment recognizes the development of political
parties.
It basically institutionalizes the idea that a presidential
candidate can pick his vice president, or he and his party,
I should say, can pick his vice president, and that those folks
are going to run as a ticket.
But you're absolutely right.
In 1800, what happened was that Burr was seen within
Jeffersonian circles as the guy running for the second spot.
But there was a screw up in the state of Georgia with their
electoral votes, and that leads to a tie in the Electoral
College.
Now, Aaron Burr could have done perhaps a statesmanlike thing
and said, all right, members of the House, now that the
election's thrown to you guys, I was supposed to be the vice
presidential candidate.
Please do not consider me for the top spot.
He does not do that.
Typical Aaron Burr, all ambition, no principle.
So, yes, it's that disaster in 1800 that leads to the 12th
Amendment that makes now the vice presidential choice
separate from the presidential choice.
SPEAKER_01: And is Aaron Burr a Democratic-Republican or is he a
federalist?
SPEAKER_00: Well, that's a that's you put your finger right
on it, Liz.
Alexander Hamilton would have said the guy is is neither or
neither, however you pronounce that word.
He he has no principles, according to Hamilton.
He he just follows public opinion, he follows which way
the wind blows, you know, sticks his finger in the air.
So one day he might appear to be Federalist, the other day, uh
more of a Democrat, Republican, or a Jeffersonian.
So he again, according to his rivals, and I happen to believe
they they were onto something, he's not a man of principle,
he's a man of raw ambition, and that was all he was about.
SPEAKER_01: So it sounds like just all of these slights
between Hamilton and Burr happen, and it culminates in a
duel in New Jersey.
Because, like the plague says, everything is legal in New
Jersey.
Is Aaron Burr vice president at the time?
SPEAKER_00: Yes, he is.
Yes, he is.
SPEAKER_01: And then is is Alexander Hamilton, what is his
role in the government in 1804?
SPEAKER_00: No role in the government at that point.
When the Jeffersonian, when Jefferson wins in 1800, Hamilton
returned.
Well, Hamilton had already returned to Manhattan.
He's a prominent lawyer in Manhattan.
His last formal public service had been as George Washington's
Secretary of the Treasury.
So that's already quite a few years in the past.
But you do have the sitting vice president of the United States
shooting the first Secretary of the Treasury of the United
States and killing him.
SPEAKER_01: So, I mean, this all happens.
Is Burr arrested?
Like what how?
Because I mean, we unfortunately we know that Dowser and Hamilton
does not survive the duel.
But what happens to Burr then?
Because again, he's the sitting vice president.
SPEAKER_00: He is indicted.
And so his term of office expires.
So the election of 1804, Jefferson has replaced him,
replaced Burr using this new 12th Amendment.
He's picked Governor George Clinton of New York.
Burr serves out the remainder of his vice presidency.
But then, as I think most of us know, he's going to flee.
Maybe flee is a little too strong, but he's going to head
west.
And he's going to get into some more trouble out west for
allegedly conspiring to set up his own empire of Burrville or
whatever he's going to call it.
And so he is running from an indictment of sorts, not of
sorts, he's running from an indictment in New York State
related to the duel with Hamilton.
You know, I think it is important, Liz, and the musical
makes a lot of this.
Hamilton did throw away his shot.
Burr chose not to.
He chose to shoot at Hamilton.
And according to those who studied dueling, that odd
practice from our founding era, most folks on the dueling ground
tended to fire past your opponent.
The goal was not to kill them.
Burr opted to kill Hamilton.
And again, for me, that says a lot about his character.
In a way, he is on the run when he heads west.
He is ultimately brought back to the United States by the
Jefferson administration, charged with treason and
acquitted.
And he's going to live for another 30 or so years, but his
public service is over.
The Jeffersonians don't like him for what he did to Jefferson in
1800.
And needless to say, the Federalists aren't fond of him
for killing Alexander Hamilton.
So he lives his life, the remainder of his life in
disgrace.
SPEAKER_01: I like what you said, all ambition, no
principle.
You know, Aaron Burr, the musical, it feels like they
really set it up that he was like, you know, upset that he
shot him and he didn't realize that that's what they were
doing.
But you're saying, like, no, he absolutely made the choice to
take that shot and it is, it is so interesting, too, that he is
charged with treason.
So I mean, could we consider Aaron Burr a traitor?
Even though you say he's found innocent, I mean, like, does
history look at him as a traitor?
SPEAKER_00: I think for the most part, Liz, history does look
upon him, Burr with uh uh uh find that that conspiracy that
he was engaged in was probably legitimate, that he was up to no
good, maybe trying to strike a deal with Spain or whatever.
It's it's very murky.
The key source was playing both sides, so that adds to some of
the confusion and contributes to Burr's acquittal.
But I'd I would say for most historians throughout most of
our history, Burr is something of a disgraced figure, perhaps
less so for killing Hamilton, more so for these activities out
west where he appeared to be betraying his own country.
Again, I can't say that.
No one can say that with 100% certainty, but it does seem to
me, circumstantially speaking, that this was a man who was once
again up to no good.
And by the way, that's coming from a Dyed in the Wool
Hamiltonian, so perhaps it's no surprise.
SPEAKER_01: Well, and I I again I think with the popularity of
the play and and just that play two, just bringing history more
to light and understanding, you know, these characters in this
play, there's actually a lot more to them.
I'm sure there are people listening right now that didn't
know that there's a whole nother side to burr in this conspiracy
and all of these other things.
So, Dr.
Knott, I'm so glad I got to talk to you on this one specifically
because I know that you are a dynamical Hamiltonian, but it
it's just such an interesting thing.
Has any other like sitting president or vice president been
in a duel?
Or was it just him?
I now I'm like, that's gonna be my next deep dive.
SPEAKER_00: I'm reluctant, you know, that we had so many vice
presidents in the 1800s, it's possible.
Well, certainly Andrew Jackson was involved in multiple duels.
I grant you he wasn't a vice president, but yes, Jackson was
involved in approximately 11 duels and actually did kill a
man in a duel and spent the bulk of his life walking around with
with a let you know some shot in his chest from one of those
duels.
In fact, there was a joke at the time that you could hear him
coming down the hallway because he sounded like a bag of
marbles.
He had so much lead in him.
Uh, that's an overstatement clearly.
Yes.
But Jackson, it was very typical, particularly obviously
not in the Burr Hamilton case, but particularly south of the
Mason Dixon line.
If you were insulted as a public figure, you were expected as a
man to challenge that person who insulted you.
And you were you were supposed to get your your dignity, your
credibility back by challenging that person.
If they wouldn't meet you on the field of honor, then the
disgrace was on them.
So it was quite common.
I would say this, Liz.
I used to tell a joke.
I don't know how well this will go over.
The other vice president that we do know that actually shot
somebody was Dick Cheney, who had a hunting accident in 2006
or seven or eight or somewhere in there.
Totally by accident.
Yes, but not a duel, but I always got a laugh from my
students.
SPEAKER_01: Maybe it was a cheap shot of sorts, but well, I you
know, it is, and I I did double check Aaron Burt is the only
one, but you you know, you are correct, Andrew Jefferson.
Multiple, and he actually ended up killing somebody too.
So I feel like I can talk about this with you forever.
But for the sake of time, again, thank you so much for your
expertise.
Listeners, if you have not listened to Dr.
Knott's other episodes, we did one on George Bush and the 9-11
address, and then we also did one on Executive Order 9066 in
the Puromatsu case.
So definitely go back and look at those.
And I'm gonna say this not because I have to, but because
this is a very genuine one of my favorite scholars to work with,
also one of my favorite authors.
So, Dr.
Nott, just again, thank you so much.
SPEAKER_00: Thank you, Liz.
Always a pleasure.